Tactics vs teleporting missles & PBs

  Alpha Centauri Forums
  Strategies and Tactics
  Tactics vs teleporting missles & PBs

profile | register | prefs | faq | search

Author Topic:   Tactics vs teleporting missles & PBs

jimmytrick posted 05-06-99 12:01 AM ET
1.It has occurred to me that we might be able to circumvent the teleporting missle problem by surrounding bases with cheap units. I don't think the AI will attack such units to get through to the bases. I have never seen the AI attack my units in the field with missles unless the units were threatening AI territority. Comments?
2. The above tactic may work against PBs as well. It may not only work against teleporting PBs but legal, in range, PBs also, which if true would make this tactic viable after Firaxis fixes the bug. (sorry, if they ever fix it). Comments?
3. To protect my air and PB units against missle attacks I have built airbases outside bases (outside production radius but inside my territory). So far, if I move the units into the airbases they have been safe. The AI apparently does not teleport into such locations. However, if you build the airbase too near enemy territory you might get zapped, although I have not seen this.
The AI has the annoying habit of using conventional missles to destroy PBs in bases immediately after they are built. As I play on transcend, I suspect this may be one of the rumored "cheats" that are granted the AI on higher difficultly levels. So I am transfering them pronto into the airbases and so far so good. Comments?

R A Spottiswood posted 05-06-99 01:46 AM ET
In a recent game I was getting hit by Yang's conventional missiles. I found that he only hit certain bases -- those that did not have an Aerospace Complex. I suspect that the computer does not try to hit such bases with missiles, since they are likely to be shot down.
RAS
Smeagol posted 05-06-99 01:51 AM ET
RA-- What exactly do Aerospace Complexes do? They can shoot down missiles? What other advantages do they have other than those listed in the manual?
jimmytrick posted 05-06-99 08:10 AM ET
Almost all of my bases have Aerospace Complexes. The Aerospace provides a 100% defense bonus. Various tech advances can come into play to affect missle defense effectiveness, however, please note that the missles become more powerful with better reactors. And then there is Miriam's attack bonus that also applies.
RA, in your game I think you had sufficient tech/defense along with the areospace complex to prevent Yang's missles from being effective against those bases. Perhaps he had only fission missles at the time.
Firaxis has enabled the AI with the "ability"
to recognize this situation and act accordingly. It is my understanding that the AI can see inside human bases just as you can theirs after you infiltrate.
I may be wrong about so of this but I am certain that the aerospace complex does not shoot missles down.
RA thanks for your input. If others will also kick in their two cents worth we may soon be able to pin down the elusive "stop the teleporting missles solution". Which Firaxis has miserably failed to do.
GaryD posted 05-06-99 08:17 AM ET
I've seen the "surround my base with cheap units" tactic posted elsewhere in these forums. Sounds reasonable to me. But you'd need one hell of a big circle of units to protect from a PB wouldn't you ? And if a second followed on there'd be a free path anyway.
jimmytrick posted 05-06-99 09:21 AM ET
GaryD, the thing is I don't think the AI would launch a PB at a base unless it can trace a direct path to the base. Certainly, this tactic wouldn't work against a human player.
Of course the bug may allow the AI to teleport past the blocking units anyway, but I am testing and have not seen that happen yet.
I would be impressed if the AI started picking off blocking units with conventional missles to clear a path to enable other conventional missles to hit the base. That would be a darn good AI routine. But I just don't think the AI can/will do this.
If anybody has seen it please report it here.
By the way I hate trying to abuse the weakness of the AI in such a manner, but, I have no choice when Firaxis bug spray fails to correct these types of glitches.
Can anyone confirm if the blocking tactic works?
StargazerBC posted 05-06-99 09:51 AM ET
The blocking your base with cheap units is an okay idea if you have a high SUPPORT rating and willing to dish them out. Of course, there's also the matter that your units, outside of the city, might cause Social Upheaval. I'm assuming anyone who's being bombarded by AI's missles already have Hovercraft Chassis. Well, I'd suggest doing a Hovercraft, best engine, best armor (maybe best weapon too if you want it to be an offensive unit) with AAA and 2x Police (or trance, whatever your Defensive Preference) The Chassis and engine will had more HP's. Since it's in a city, your tank will have the addied bonus of Tachyon, Perimeter, City Defenses. Even with a Negative MORALE SE rating you should efficiently ward off/destroy missles. . I disregard infantry because they have only 1 move and low HP's. Rovers and Tanks are good becuase you can assault near by invaders and still go back to the city to defend in the same turn . Hope it works out, it does for me.
Salkin posted 05-06-99 12:44 PM ET
StargazerBC:
You can equip the blocking units with clean reactors, so they'll be support free. This will make them cost more, but I'd say it's worth it considering you won't lose any production supporting them.
Also, they aren't going to cause drones even if you have a low Police rating, since in SMAC, unlike in Civ II, drones drones won't be created simply by units being outside their base - they have to be outside your territory.
Your method of defending against missiles seems good as well, though.
I'd like to note that the 'unit ring' tactic, while unable to stop a human player altogether, can still delay his attack, and cost him more missiles if he has no attack units nearby.
Plato90s posted 05-06-99 12:49 PM ET
The cheap-unit shield is not very practical against PBs, given that you will have to surround every single city you would like to protect from PBs with 8 units.
A far easier solution is to build a few PBs of your own and scatter them around the perimeter of your empire in small cities you wouldn't really mind losing. The AI will attack your PB stockpiles first with their own PBs, trying to take out your capacity for retaliation. Make sure that "bait city" has strong AAA ability because you don't want to lose your PB to a conventional missle.
Plato90s posted 05-06-99 12:49 PM ET
The cheap-unit shield is not very practical against PBs, given that you will have to surround every single city you would like to protect from PBs with 8 units.
A far easier solution is to build a few PBs of your own and scatter them around the perimeter of your empire in small cities you wouldn't really mind losing. The AI will attack your PB stockpiles first with their own PBs, trying to take out your capacity for retaliation. Make sure that "bait city" has strong AAA ability because you don't want to lose your PB to a conventional missle.
jimmytrick posted 05-06-99 02:05 PM ET
Guys, good points.
1. Since I am using many slow tech advance game setup selections:
A: I have not gotten to Tachyon Field yet even though I am ahead in tech. I was being abused by missles long before I got the hovertank also.
B: Social Upheaval is not a prob for me in this game since I am not playing Free Market.
C. Plato90s-since I am playing the slow tech I've had to make extensive use of supply crawlers, often 5 or 6 per base. I am now moving them to work tiles adjacent to my base where practical. This cuts down on the number of combat units required to form the ring. I hope it works cause I would rather build rings than sacrifice cities. Your idea is very thought provoking though..this is just the kind of discussion we need to "beat the telporting missle bug"
How many of you guys are seeing teleporting missles while using the v3 patch?
jimmytrick posted 05-06-99 10:14 PM ET
Now I've seen it all, a floating PK conventional missle. Mine explode at the end of the turn but Lal's are powered by the Energizer bunny-just keeps on going.
Is this a bug or or a Firaxis endorsed AI cheat?
And does this mean that the jimmytrick anti-missle defense ring is working?
Tune in tomorrow for the next installment of "beat the teleporting missle bug".
wtiger posted 05-06-99 11:01 PM ET
Hmm...A Firaxis-endorsed AI cheat. Jimmytrick, you may have just seen the light!
IMHO, it isn't as much a bug as a way to make the AI less of a military pushover. Take out the teleporting missiles, and Firaxis would have to overhaul the AI. Which means that unless Firaxis has some really slick AI programmers who can make a Sun Tzu out of an AI, it probably wouldn't be "patched" at all, IMHO. Why make conquering the AI, which is easy as it is already now, even easier?
Remember, a variation of this bug is present in Civ2 i.e. after the AI got missiles, you could be almost sure that your battleships and carriers would clutter the bottom of the sea. Hell, even my battleship + AEGIS crusier combo got smashed to pieces, after getting hit by six or seven(+/- 5) missiles from nowhere.
At least you're not being hit by hordes of teleporting needlejets....
Wolf Dreamer posted 05-07-99 01:01 AM ET
Something jimmytrick said got me wondering.
"And then there is Miriam's attack bonus that also applies."
Miriam gets an attack bonus because her religious fanatic followers are more loyal and determined. That makes sense for most units, except in the case of missles. How can a missle be more dedicated to an attack?
It can't fight any harder than it normally would, it can't experience fear or discouragement of any kind, it can't be affected by someone's charisma or propaganda. I hold these truths to be self evident, that all missiles are created equally, and endored by their creators with the same dedications as any other mindless machine. Therefor, moral bonuses don't make any sense. Anyone agree with me?
Plato90s posted 05-07-99 01:17 AM ET
At least the needlejets will crash if they can't land at the end of their 2nd turn.
I remember Civ2 air units that can cross entire oceans without crashing.
In a recent game, the UoP had moved into a ocean combat area by basing their needlejets in a bribed base. As soon as the Blood Truce expired, I captured that seabase and watched 4 Shard needlejets crash and burn on the very next turn.
jimmytrick posted 05-07-99 10:19 AM ET
Wtiger, you are, of course, correct. I fully understand that AI limitations are such that multiple cheats have to be used to make things interesting. I just hate this particular one.
I also want to know what the cheats are!
Anyway,let me give an update. Since implementing a missle defense ring at all major bases I have had only one missle attack at all, and it was the weird floating missle. A PK conventional missle appeared two squares outside one base. It stopped next to a formers unit that was not part of the defense ring. It then "floated in mid air" while I took my turn. I had no air to air unit available to try to shoot it down. Pity.
On next PK turn it killed my former. I have never seen a former killed by a missle before so, I speculate that the AI was confused by the defense ring and the former was killed only because it was the closest target available on the next PK turn. Well, its a theory......
Anyway, no PB attacks by PK since I implemented the ring tactic. My airbases containing my stockpile of PBs have been ignored. So far, so good.
Also, my dear, beloved Miriam just pounded three(3!) major PK bases with PBs in one turn. Gave Lal a taste of his on medicine. I love ya Mir!
As I have just developed drop pods and choppers this will soon be a moot point in this game anyway.
jimmytrick posted 05-07-99 08:13 PM ET
The much heralded missle defense ring is a failure. Against PBs at least. Lal just nailed a base. I never saw the PB, just got the message and saw the puddle. Oh well, I guess I'll load up Call to Power and see if is as bad as everyone says.

To close this thread, click here (moderator or admin only).


Hop to:

Contact Us | Alpha Centauri Home

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.18
© Madrona Park, Inc., 1998.

Author	Topic: Tactics vs teleporting missles & PBs
jimmytrick	posted 05-06-99 12:01 AM ET 1.It has occurred to me that we might be able to circumvent the teleporting missle problem by surrounding bases with cheap units. I don't think the AI will attack such units to get through to the bases. I have never seen the AI attack my units in the field with missles unless the units were threatening AI territority. Comments? 2. The above tactic may work against PBs as well. It may not only work against teleporting PBs but legal, in range, PBs also, which if true would make this tactic viable after Firaxis fixes the bug. (sorry, if they ever fix it). Comments? 3. To protect my air and PB units against missle attacks I have built airbases outside bases (outside production radius but inside my territory). So far, if I move the units into the airbases they have been safe. The AI apparently does not teleport into such locations. However, if you build the airbase too near enemy territory you might get zapped, although I have not seen this. The AI has the annoying habit of using conventional missles to destroy PBs in bases immediately after they are built. As I play on transcend, I suspect this may be one of the rumored "cheats" that are granted the AI on higher difficultly levels. So I am transfering them pronto into the airbases and so far so good. Comments?
R A Spottiswood	posted 05-06-99 01:46 AM ET In a recent game I was getting hit by Yang's conventional missiles. I found that he only hit certain bases -- those that did not have an Aerospace Complex. I suspect that the computer does not try to hit such bases with missiles, since they are likely to be shot down. RAS
Smeagol	posted 05-06-99 01:51 AM ET RA-- What exactly do Aerospace Complexes do? They can shoot down missiles? What other advantages do they have other than those listed in the manual?
jimmytrick	posted 05-06-99 08:10 AM ET Almost all of my bases have Aerospace Complexes. The Aerospace provides a 100% defense bonus. Various tech advances can come into play to affect missle defense effectiveness, however, please note that the missles become more powerful with better reactors. And then there is Miriam's attack bonus that also applies. RA, in your game I think you had sufficient tech/defense along with the areospace complex to prevent Yang's missles from being effective against those bases. Perhaps he had only fission missles at the time. Firaxis has enabled the AI with the "ability" to recognize this situation and act accordingly. It is my understanding that the AI can see inside human bases just as you can theirs after you infiltrate. I may be wrong about so of this but I am certain that the aerospace complex does not shoot missles down. RA thanks for your input. If others will also kick in their two cents worth we may soon be able to pin down the elusive "stop the teleporting missles solution". Which Firaxis has miserably failed to do.
GaryD	posted 05-06-99 08:17 AM ET I've seen the "surround my base with cheap units" tactic posted elsewhere in these forums. Sounds reasonable to me. But you'd need one hell of a big circle of units to protect from a PB wouldn't you ? And if a second followed on there'd be a free path anyway.
jimmytrick	posted 05-06-99 09:21 AM ET GaryD, the thing is I don't think the AI would launch a PB at a base unless it can trace a direct path to the base. Certainly, this tactic wouldn't work against a human player. Of course the bug may allow the AI to teleport past the blocking units anyway, but I am testing and have not seen that happen yet. I would be impressed if the AI started picking off blocking units with conventional missles to clear a path to enable other conventional missles to hit the base. That would be a darn good AI routine. But I just don't think the AI can/will do this. If anybody has seen it please report it here. By the way I hate trying to abuse the weakness of the AI in such a manner, but, I have no choice when Firaxis bug spray fails to correct these types of glitches. Can anyone confirm if the blocking tactic works?
StargazerBC	posted 05-06-99 09:51 AM ET The blocking your base with cheap units is an okay idea if you have a high SUPPORT rating and willing to dish them out. Of course, there's also the matter that your units, outside of the city, might cause Social Upheaval. I'm assuming anyone who's being bombarded by AI's missles already have Hovercraft Chassis. Well, I'd suggest doing a Hovercraft, best engine, best armor (maybe best weapon too if you want it to be an offensive unit) with AAA and 2x Police (or trance, whatever your Defensive Preference) The Chassis and engine will had more HP's. Since it's in a city, your tank will have the addied bonus of Tachyon, Perimeter, City Defenses. Even with a Negative MORALE SE rating you should efficiently ward off/destroy missles. . I disregard infantry because they have only 1 move and low HP's. Rovers and Tanks are good becuase you can assault near by invaders and still go back to the city to defend in the same turn . Hope it works out, it does for me.
Salkin	posted 05-06-99 12:44 PM ET StargazerBC: You can equip the blocking units with clean reactors, so they'll be support free. This will make them cost more, but I'd say it's worth it considering you won't lose any production supporting them. Also, they aren't going to cause drones even if you have a low Police rating, since in SMAC, unlike in Civ II, drones drones won't be created simply by units being outside their base - they have to be outside your territory. Your method of defending against missiles seems good as well, though. I'd like to note that the 'unit ring' tactic, while unable to stop a human player altogether, can still delay his attack, and cost him more missiles if he has no attack units nearby.
Plato90s	posted 05-06-99 12:49 PM ET The cheap-unit shield is not very practical against PBs, given that you will have to surround every single city you would like to protect from PBs with 8 units. A far easier solution is to build a few PBs of your own and scatter them around the perimeter of your empire in small cities you wouldn't really mind losing. The AI will attack your PB stockpiles first with their own PBs, trying to take out your capacity for retaliation. Make sure that "bait city" has strong AAA ability because you don't want to lose your PB to a conventional missle.
Plato90s	posted 05-06-99 12:49 PM ET The cheap-unit shield is not very practical against PBs, given that you will have to surround every single city you would like to protect from PBs with 8 units. A far easier solution is to build a few PBs of your own and scatter them around the perimeter of your empire in small cities you wouldn't really mind losing. The AI will attack your PB stockpiles first with their own PBs, trying to take out your capacity for retaliation. Make sure that "bait city" has strong AAA ability because you don't want to lose your PB to a conventional missle.
jimmytrick	posted 05-06-99 02:05 PM ET Guys, good points. 1. Since I am using many slow tech advance game setup selections: A: I have not gotten to Tachyon Field yet even though I am ahead in tech. I was being abused by missles long before I got the hovertank also. B: Social Upheaval is not a prob for me in this game since I am not playing Free Market. C. Plato90s-since I am playing the slow tech I've had to make extensive use of supply crawlers, often 5 or 6 per base. I am now moving them to work tiles adjacent to my base where practical. This cuts down on the number of combat units required to form the ring. I hope it works cause I would rather build rings than sacrifice cities. Your idea is very thought provoking though..this is just the kind of discussion we need to "beat the telporting missle bug" How many of you guys are seeing teleporting missles while using the v3 patch?
jimmytrick	posted 05-06-99 10:14 PM ET Now I've seen it all, a floating PK conventional missle. Mine explode at the end of the turn but Lal's are powered by the Energizer bunny-just keeps on going. Is this a bug or or a Firaxis endorsed AI cheat? And does this mean that the jimmytrick anti-missle defense ring is working? Tune in tomorrow for the next installment of "beat the teleporting missle bug".
wtiger	posted 05-06-99 11:01 PM ET Hmm...A Firaxis-endorsed AI cheat. Jimmytrick, you may have just seen the light! IMHO, it isn't as much a bug as a way to make the AI less of a military pushover. Take out the teleporting missiles, and Firaxis would have to overhaul the AI. Which means that unless Firaxis has some really slick AI programmers who can make a Sun Tzu out of an AI, it probably wouldn't be "patched" at all, IMHO. Why make conquering the AI, which is easy as it is already now, even easier? Remember, a variation of this bug is present in Civ2 i.e. after the AI got missiles, you could be almost sure that your battleships and carriers would clutter the bottom of the sea. Hell, even my battleship + AEGIS crusier combo got smashed to pieces, after getting hit by six or seven(+/- 5) missiles from nowhere. At least you're not being hit by hordes of teleporting needlejets....
Wolf Dreamer	posted 05-07-99 01:01 AM ET Something jimmytrick said got me wondering. "And then there is Miriam's attack bonus that also applies." Miriam gets an attack bonus because her religious fanatic followers are more loyal and determined. That makes sense for most units, except in the case of missles. How can a missle be more dedicated to an attack? It can't fight any harder than it normally would, it can't experience fear or discouragement of any kind, it can't be affected by someone's charisma or propaganda. I hold these truths to be self evident, that all missiles are created equally, and endored by their creators with the same dedications as any other mindless machine. Therefor, moral bonuses don't make any sense. Anyone agree with me?
Plato90s	posted 05-07-99 01:17 AM ET At least the needlejets will crash if they can't land at the end of their 2nd turn. I remember Civ2 air units that can cross entire oceans without crashing. In a recent game, the UoP had moved into a ocean combat area by basing their needlejets in a bribed base. As soon as the Blood Truce expired, I captured that seabase and watched 4 Shard needlejets crash and burn on the very next turn.
jimmytrick	posted 05-07-99 10:19 AM ET Wtiger, you are, of course, correct. I fully understand that AI limitations are such that multiple cheats have to be used to make things interesting. I just hate this particular one. I also want to know what the cheats are! Anyway,let me give an update. Since implementing a missle defense ring at all major bases I have had only one missle attack at all, and it was the weird floating missle. A PK conventional missle appeared two squares outside one base. It stopped next to a formers unit that was not part of the defense ring. It then "floated in mid air" while I took my turn. I had no air to air unit available to try to shoot it down. Pity. On next PK turn it killed my former. I have never seen a former killed by a missle before so, I speculate that the AI was confused by the defense ring and the former was killed only because it was the closest target available on the next PK turn. Well, its a theory...... Anyway, no PB attacks by PK since I implemented the ring tactic. My airbases containing my stockpile of PBs have been ignored. So far, so good. Also, my dear, beloved Miriam just pounded three(3!) major PK bases with PBs in one turn. Gave Lal a taste of his on medicine. I love ya Mir! As I have just developed drop pods and choppers this will soon be a moot point in this game anyway.
jimmytrick	posted 05-07-99 08:13 PM ET The much heralded missle defense ring is a failure. Against PBs at least. Lal just nailed a base. I never saw the PB, just got the message and saw the puddle. Oh well, I guess I'll load up Call to Power and see if is as bad as everyone says.