Morgananophiles and other fans of FM/W, questioin...

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Goobmeister posted 04-27-99 01:49 PM ET
Last night in my first Morgan game, and thus my first Free Market/Wealth game. I had acquired Doctrine: Air Power and I built a needlejet, as the start of an airdefense-intercept force. As soon as it was created the drones rioted in that city due to pacificism. Is this normal to riot against a needlejet even when it is sitting in the city and never left? Also earlier I had a skimship that was patrolling my coast, it stayed within my overall base range, but it caused pacifistic drone riots as well that would not stop until I got the ship back into port. Even sitting in the sea square next to the city would not end the riots. (And because I let it sit there for a turn the riots escalated and destroyed my Rec Tanks....ergghh.
Should I just not have an airoforce while I have FM/W, and shouldn't ships be able to patrol within base range?
Goob
trippin daily posted 04-27-99 02:11 PM ET
that is just one of the things u have to live with... that -5 police rating can kill ya. All of that happens.
Smeagol posted 04-27-99 03:25 PM ET
If you use psych well, you shouldn't have a problem with a few combat units per city that actually leave it. First off, get the Ascetic Virtues to lower that police to -4.
You should be producing so much energy that you can boost psych to 10 or even 20%, and with improvements in the city that boost psych, drones shouldn't really be a problem at all (and of course you could use rec commons, etc).
I have also recently been enlightened to another idea, though for me it isn't actually necessary. Just build a punishment sphere in one base and build your entire army there.
But honestly, if you are going to use Free Market anyway, you might as well use Lal. He doesn't suffer from those hab limits and can actually have 2 more population per city, so in the end you produce much more energy than Morgan. Also, as planetary governor you will have your commerce rates increased just like Morgan's benefit. I have also found that since I build so many bases, choosing knowledge over wealth actually helps me more in the end (with the efficiency bonus), and if you have the hunter-seeker this is the way to go.
Coda posted 04-27-99 03:52 PM ET
Smeagol's advice is good. The game has a definite green bias and is anti-free market/business. If you want to set it more realistically, simply go into ALPHA.TXT and change that -5 to say -2 (or whatever). Incidentally, once you've played long enough with the game's default settings, changing the game by making subtle alterations to ALPHA.TXT can be quite fun. For example, I don't like to have the sea levels rise so often, and I don't like Planet Busters. You can change these in ALPHA.TXT.
Schoop posted 04-27-99 03:56 PM ET
When you have an extremely low Police rating, Drones appear in response to needlejets and Copters that DON'T have the Air Superiority ability. Your Air Force under free market should consist of all Interceptor-type Aircraft.
Goobmeister posted 04-27-99 04:17 PM ET
Schoop I was wondering that, because they are inherently defensive.
Other than those problems, the FM/W combo is doing wonders. I end up just straight off buying whatever I am making, and hhave little concern for minerals.
I may adjust the free market setting because I want Free Market to be a viable strategy for the AI Morgan.
It was nice just making a direct run for clean units. I now have a nice army. it is purely defensive and reactive but no one is getting close to Mt. Morgan...er...Planet.
Goob
Smeagol posted 04-27-99 04:28 PM ET
I am a little confused myself about something-- what type of units give pacifism problems and under what conditions? I noticed that I could move some attack infantry out of my city without them creating a drone in the city they are supported from, but when I place them on a sea transport, the pacifist problems result. This makes little sense-- so as long as you never leave the landmass you are on no extra drones are created? Or is it as long as you don't leave your borders?
Also, I don't understand why air attack units (needlejets without air superiority, and copters) still create pacifism problems while they are still in the city. Why? This makes no sense at all. Could someone give the general rules for which units provide pacifism problems?
Thanks! Oh, and by the way, I am using Free Market, obviously.
Bingmann posted 04-27-99 04:44 PM ET
This is a throw-back to civ2 that is not mentioned anywhere in the SMAC documentation. In civ2, bombers, stealth bombers, helicopters, and missiles are always considered "away from home" for pacifism reasons.
Also, I'm not positive about this, but it seems that only sea bases create "sea territory".
Bing
Smeagol posted 04-27-99 05:30 PM ET
Ok, it seems to me the rule is this:
Air units without air superiority and attack choppers always give drones, regardless of whether or not they leave the city.
All other attack units give drones when they leave the borders of your empire.
What about interceptors? Do they ever give drones?
Please tell me if I am reading this wrong.
Smeagol posted 04-27-99 05:31 PM ET
Oh, and I guess missiles also give drones no matter what.
JT 3 posted 04-27-99 06:08 PM ET
I have changed the FM to +2 -2 -2. This gives organ a better chance.
Smeagol posted 04-27-99 08:27 PM ET
I don't think Free Market Economy has that big of a penalty at all. Granted, the computer does not play Morgan well, but he's not the only faction that uses FME. +2 Economy for anyone (except the gaians and the hive) can be a huge bonus, and with that kind of an economy it is easy to control drones with psych.
As I've said, the only problem I'm having with it is this confusion over what exactly leads to pacifism-- what units and under what conditions. Can anyone confirm if what I've said so far (above) is correct?
Mergle posted 04-28-99 08:22 AM ET
Free Market/ Wealth is superb! I'm currently on a TI game with Zak and it gives me more research+money than anything else. The police problem is its only drawback - and is easy enough to overcome (use punishment spheres in some low energy cities or simply don't bother with bombers - all other units simply need to stay within your borders - which can expand each time you capture a base). I've played several games using exclusively dem/fm/w (when they became available) and an aggressive military strategy (make sure those command centres/ bioenhance places are there to deal with the morale pen. from wealth). A series of "alpha-strikes" (overwhelming military force) against 1 city each turn worked well. Reducing the police penalty will only make the combo totally overpowered.
Earwicker posted 04-28-99 08:24 AM ET
Smeagol:
From playing Morgan once with FM/W I, too, came to that startling realization (but not before getting reeeeel frustrated with the drone riots and wondering why). Ground attack air units cause drones, air attack units do not. Moving your ground forces around within your land borders doesn't cause drones (I suppose this represents mobilizing for defense). I believe piling them on ships causes drones while the ships are in transit.
Once I realized this, invasion simply became a question of breaking the campaign into a series of short hops and making the most of drop troops.
Goobmeister posted 04-28-99 10:42 AM ET
Reading the thread again, and thought of a question I can try at home but thought I would ask here.
First, my assumption for the pacificism penalty for ground units was that if they were more than two squares away from a base then the penalty would kick in, or is it if they are outside of your territory border?
Second, does anyone know if there is a difference between say a 1-3-1 garrison and 6-1-1 missile shock squad? Can the garrison go further than the shock squad?
Goob
Mergle posted 04-28-99 12:46 PM ET
Drones are for units outside your own territory (and bombers everywhere, of course). This means you might want to build a string of sea bases for those long sea crossings, as land bases don't claim sea territory (so lots on drones on transports).
No difference in numbers of drones produced by garrisons/attack units, but non-combat (eg probe, transport, formers) don't produce drones (even if armoured and thus not suffering the "non-combat" penalty).
Vinny posted 04-30-99 08:49 PM ET
When I play as Morgan, I go for FM and Police State. This compromises Morgan's support penalty and reduces the police to one drone per unit away after the first one. Get the ascetic virtues and you just can't nerve staple, no problem.
Koshko posted 05-01-99 12:14 AM ET
I've only tried him a little bit, but I don't go for Free Market. Instead I'd opt for Wealth/Green. Green is great; A must have for me (I'm a builder). +2 Ecomony is all you really need. +3 Ecomony will just up your Commerce rates a bit (which is only good during Peace).
If you want +3 Ecomony in the later going, I'd instead go for Eudomatic (though I personally prefer Cybernetic) and change Wealth to Power to cover for the Morale.

Koshko posted 05-01-99 12:16 AM ET
Since Morgan + Wealth + Free Market gives you +4 Ecomony, does anyone dump Wealth for Eudaimonic for the full +5 Ecomony?
Smeagol posted 05-01-99 12:29 AM ET
I much prefer free market over wealth because I can figure out ways to fight an effective war with free market (for anyone who has read the army laundering strategy, you know this too). But wealth gives a -2 morale, which can be a crippler. It isn't even reasonable-- you get half the benefits of command centers and other morale enhancement centers, you lose a morale level, and whatever level your troops are actually at, they act as one level lower. So if I make both command and bioenhancement centers, that gives me a +2, from which I subtract 2 to give me green troops anyway! And changing to power can't fix this, because I've already lost half the benefit from my enhancement centers. It almost makes the idea valuable of switching from wealth for a turn and making all of your units so at least they won't lose those 2 morale levels.
Wealth is a bad choice unless you never plan on fighting or your troops are that much more advanced.
ishmael13 posted 05-03-99 05:31 PM ET
Actually, you folks keep trying to play an aggressive strategy with the wrong units. A Demo/Free Mkt/Wealth Morgan makes money hand over fist. Just deploy a mass of probe teams by sea/land/air and buy the initial lodgement. In the later stages of the game this will require multiple probes, but you have $$$ to burn. Once established, continue to buy the opponent, subverting enemy units that attempt to retake your foot hold. Since the enemy usually sends their top of the line units, you get a pile of (admittedly green) high tech units to throw back at them. This has the pleasant effect of forcing them to fight their own production and allows you to continue cranking out more probes/energy. This is especially useful if you can launch satellites, boosting energy even further. Only miriam is usually able to withstand the probe army assault. By keeping the PKs, University or Tree-huggers about you can effectively defeat her. If they aren't available, your superior technology should allow you to defeat her (try the missile barrage / drop troop w/ space elevator combo, it works every time. Remember, $$$ is absolutely no object. Just don't fight until 2300 or later. Give yourself time to build up your infrastructure (and bank account).
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Author	Topic: Morgananophiles and other fans of FM/W, questioin...
Goobmeister	posted 04-27-99 01:49 PM ET Last night in my first Morgan game, and thus my first Free Market/Wealth game. I had acquired Doctrine: Air Power and I built a needlejet, as the start of an airdefense-intercept force. As soon as it was created the drones rioted in that city due to pacificism. Is this normal to riot against a needlejet even when it is sitting in the city and never left? Also earlier I had a skimship that was patrolling my coast, it stayed within my overall base range, but it caused pacifistic drone riots as well that would not stop until I got the ship back into port. Even sitting in the sea square next to the city would not end the riots. (And because I let it sit there for a turn the riots escalated and destroyed my Rec Tanks....ergghh. Should I just not have an airoforce while I have FM/W, and shouldn't ships be able to patrol within base range? Goob
trippin daily	posted 04-27-99 02:11 PM ET that is just one of the things u have to live with... that -5 police rating can kill ya. All of that happens.
Smeagol	posted 04-27-99 03:25 PM ET If you use psych well, you shouldn't have a problem with a few combat units per city that actually leave it. First off, get the Ascetic Virtues to lower that police to -4. You should be producing so much energy that you can boost psych to 10 or even 20%, and with improvements in the city that boost psych, drones shouldn't really be a problem at all (and of course you could use rec commons, etc). I have also recently been enlightened to another idea, though for me it isn't actually necessary. Just build a punishment sphere in one base and build your entire army there. But honestly, if you are going to use Free Market anyway, you might as well use Lal. He doesn't suffer from those hab limits and can actually have 2 more population per city, so in the end you produce much more energy than Morgan. Also, as planetary governor you will have your commerce rates increased just like Morgan's benefit. I have also found that since I build so many bases, choosing knowledge over wealth actually helps me more in the end (with the efficiency bonus), and if you have the hunter-seeker this is the way to go.
Coda	posted 04-27-99 03:52 PM ET Smeagol's advice is good. The game has a definite green bias and is anti-free market/business. If you want to set it more realistically, simply go into ALPHA.TXT and change that -5 to say -2 (or whatever). Incidentally, once you've played long enough with the game's default settings, changing the game by making subtle alterations to ALPHA.TXT can be quite fun. For example, I don't like to have the sea levels rise so often, and I don't like Planet Busters. You can change these in ALPHA.TXT.
Schoop	posted 04-27-99 03:56 PM ET When you have an extremely low Police rating, Drones appear in response to needlejets and Copters that DON'T have the Air Superiority ability. Your Air Force under free market should consist of all Interceptor-type Aircraft.
Goobmeister	posted 04-27-99 04:17 PM ET Schoop I was wondering that, because they are inherently defensive. Other than those problems, the FM/W combo is doing wonders. I end up just straight off buying whatever I am making, and hhave little concern for minerals. I may adjust the free market setting because I want Free Market to be a viable strategy for the AI Morgan. It was nice just making a direct run for clean units. I now have a nice army. it is purely defensive and reactive but no one is getting close to Mt. Morgan...er...Planet. Goob
Smeagol	posted 04-27-99 04:28 PM ET I am a little confused myself about something-- what type of units give pacifism problems and under what conditions? I noticed that I could move some attack infantry out of my city without them creating a drone in the city they are supported from, but when I place them on a sea transport, the pacifist problems result. This makes little sense-- so as long as you never leave the landmass you are on no extra drones are created? Or is it as long as you don't leave your borders? Also, I don't understand why air attack units (needlejets without air superiority, and copters) still create pacifism problems while they are still in the city. Why? This makes no sense at all. Could someone give the general rules for which units provide pacifism problems? Thanks! Oh, and by the way, I am using Free Market, obviously.
Bingmann	posted 04-27-99 04:44 PM ET This is a throw-back to civ2 that is not mentioned anywhere in the SMAC documentation. In civ2, bombers, stealth bombers, helicopters, and missiles are always considered "away from home" for pacifism reasons. Also, I'm not positive about this, but it seems that only sea bases create "sea territory". Bing
Smeagol	posted 04-27-99 05:30 PM ET Ok, it seems to me the rule is this: Air units without air superiority and attack choppers always give drones, regardless of whether or not they leave the city. All other attack units give drones when they leave the borders of your empire. What about interceptors? Do they ever give drones? Please tell me if I am reading this wrong.
Smeagol	posted 04-27-99 05:31 PM ET Oh, and I guess missiles also give drones no matter what.
JT 3	posted 04-27-99 06:08 PM ET I have changed the FM to +2 -2 -2. This gives organ a better chance.
Smeagol	posted 04-27-99 08:27 PM ET I don't think Free Market Economy has that big of a penalty at all. Granted, the computer does not play Morgan well, but he's not the only faction that uses FME. +2 Economy for anyone (except the gaians and the hive) can be a huge bonus, and with that kind of an economy it is easy to control drones with psych. As I've said, the only problem I'm having with it is this confusion over what exactly leads to pacifism-- what units and under what conditions. Can anyone confirm if what I've said so far (above) is correct?
Mergle	posted 04-28-99 08:22 AM ET Free Market/ Wealth is superb! I'm currently on a TI game with Zak and it gives me more research+money than anything else. The police problem is its only drawback - and is easy enough to overcome (use punishment spheres in some low energy cities or simply don't bother with bombers - all other units simply need to stay within your borders - which can expand each time you capture a base). I've played several games using exclusively dem/fm/w (when they became available) and an aggressive military strategy (make sure those command centres/ bioenhance places are there to deal with the morale pen. from wealth). A series of "alpha-strikes" (overwhelming military force) against 1 city each turn worked well. Reducing the police penalty will only make the combo totally overpowered.
Earwicker	posted 04-28-99 08:24 AM ET Smeagol: From playing Morgan once with FM/W I, too, came to that startling realization (but not before getting reeeeel frustrated with the drone riots and wondering why). Ground attack air units cause drones, air attack units do not. Moving your ground forces around within your land borders doesn't cause drones (I suppose this represents mobilizing for defense). I believe piling them on ships causes drones while the ships are in transit. Once I realized this, invasion simply became a question of breaking the campaign into a series of short hops and making the most of drop troops.
Goobmeister	posted 04-28-99 10:42 AM ET Reading the thread again, and thought of a question I can try at home but thought I would ask here. First, my assumption for the pacificism penalty for ground units was that if they were more than two squares away from a base then the penalty would kick in, or is it if they are outside of your territory border? Second, does anyone know if there is a difference between say a 1-3-1 garrison and 6-1-1 missile shock squad? Can the garrison go further than the shock squad? Goob
Mergle	posted 04-28-99 12:46 PM ET Drones are for units outside your own territory (and bombers everywhere, of course). This means you might want to build a string of sea bases for those long sea crossings, as land bases don't claim sea territory (so lots on drones on transports). No difference in numbers of drones produced by garrisons/attack units, but non-combat (eg probe, transport, formers) don't produce drones (even if armoured and thus not suffering the "non-combat" penalty).
Vinny	posted 04-30-99 08:49 PM ET When I play as Morgan, I go for FM and Police State. This compromises Morgan's support penalty and reduces the police to one drone per unit away after the first one. Get the ascetic virtues and you just can't nerve staple, no problem.
Koshko	posted 05-01-99 12:14 AM ET I've only tried him a little bit, but I don't go for Free Market. Instead I'd opt for Wealth/Green. Green is great; A must have for me (I'm a builder). +2 Ecomony is all you really need. +3 Ecomony will just up your Commerce rates a bit (which is only good during Peace). If you want +3 Ecomony in the later going, I'd instead go for Eudomatic (though I personally prefer Cybernetic) and change Wealth to Power to cover for the Morale.
Koshko	posted 05-01-99 12:16 AM ET Since Morgan + Wealth + Free Market gives you +4 Ecomony, does anyone dump Wealth for Eudaimonic for the full +5 Ecomony?
Smeagol	posted 05-01-99 12:29 AM ET I much prefer free market over wealth because I can figure out ways to fight an effective war with free market (for anyone who has read the army laundering strategy, you know this too). But wealth gives a -2 morale, which can be a crippler. It isn't even reasonable-- you get half the benefits of command centers and other morale enhancement centers, you lose a morale level, and whatever level your troops are actually at, they act as one level lower. So if I make both command and bioenhancement centers, that gives me a +2, from which I subtract 2 to give me green troops anyway! And changing to power can't fix this, because I've already lost half the benefit from my enhancement centers. It almost makes the idea valuable of switching from wealth for a turn and making all of your units so at least they won't lose those 2 morale levels. Wealth is a bad choice unless you never plan on fighting or your troops are that much more advanced.
ishmael13	posted 05-03-99 05:31 PM ET Actually, you folks keep trying to play an aggressive strategy with the wrong units. A Demo/Free Mkt/Wealth Morgan makes money hand over fist. Just deploy a mass of probe teams by sea/land/air and buy the initial lodgement. In the later stages of the game this will require multiple probes, but you have $$$ to burn. Once established, continue to buy the opponent, subverting enemy units that attempt to retake your foot hold. Since the enemy usually sends their top of the line units, you get a pile of (admittedly green) high tech units to throw back at them. This has the pleasant effect of forcing them to fight their own production and allows you to continue cranking out more probes/energy. This is especially useful if you can launch satellites, boosting energy even further. Only miriam is usually able to withstand the probe army assault. By keeping the PKs, University or Tree-huggers about you can effectively defeat her. If they aren't available, your superior technology should allow you to defeat her (try the missile barrage / drop troop w/ space elevator combo, it works every time. Remember, $$$ is absolutely no object. Just don't fight until 2300 or later. Give yourself time to build up your infrastructure (and bank account).