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Author Topic:   How to stop Believers?

Speedo posted 04-12-99 10:56 AM ET
I'm playing against the Believers but they use AAA tracking against my copters and bombards my ships (their bases are on a island) and I can build only a few units because they launch into my bases dozens of missiles. They are killing all other factions, how can I stop them?
Their units are VERY strong and I cant make atrocities.
ApcJK posted 04-12-99 11:37 AM ET
Hmm... maybe you could build lots of probe teams and sabotage their productions. Or destroy their facilities that keep people happy?
ApcJK posted 04-12-99 11:37 AM ET
Or were they immune to probe teams?
trippin daily posted 04-12-99 03:47 PM ET
They are immune to probe teams... at least everytime i've tried to go after them with it they are The key to beating the believers is to NEVER let them attack your units first, always attack theirs if possible... in the early game.. that +25% bonus can virtually garauntee they will kill most of what they attack... just quickly get the chaos gun, and go on a shooting spree
dbrodale posted 04-12-99 09:40 PM ET
I believe that the Believers are only immune to MIND CONTROL. You may still use probe teams to divert energy, sabotage facilities, incite riots, etc.
The best offense v. the Believers is to prevent them from climbing the tech tree in the first place - easier said than done, I know, but if you can stagnate their relations with others [usu. strained anyway] and *not* trade them anything, they will come to be outclassed in the field, regardless of numbers.
d.brodale
HolyWarrior posted 04-12-99 11:09 PM ET
Chuckle...you don't know how happy you have made me. At last, a post complaining that the Believers are too powerful. Now I can play SMAC fully content.
Chaos posted 04-12-99 11:29 PM ET
I don't have any problems with the Believers. I find defeating them very easy. One tactic is to have another fraction help you. While they are fighting you can build up your army and attack. Not only do you destroy the Believers, but you can weaken another fraction.
morphyne posted 04-13-99 05:48 AM ET
True, the Believers' militant stance towards success does give them strained relations, but I haven't really seen a difference between them and the others.
They are immune to mind control because they start out with +1 Probe, and are always Fundamentalist, bringing them up to +3. Even if you were to use probe teams, your success rate would be 50% less and cost twice as much.
Basically, if you can take the offensive early in the game and keep them from climbing the tech tree, you've won. Still, they are not unbeatable, and their strength tends to dwindle in times of peace. Personally I don't really think they are too powerful, at times the Hive seems to be so(if used by a human) due to their immunity to inefficency, but I think it is all fairly well balanced.
woodelf posted 04-13-99 05:49 AM ET
In my experience if you don't jump on Miriam early she will be a nusiance if not a downright pain in the ass the entire game. Having her on a border, even as a friend, makes me cringe. If possible, wipe her out early. If not, get the HSA and shore up your borders.
Never, ever give her anything.
GaryD posted 04-13-99 09:30 AM ET
How to stop Believers ? Give them Hell !
(Alternatively you can tell them that you are just going out when they knock on your door.)
Dark Phoenix posted 04-14-99 11:01 AM ET
Best advice I can give you is to trash their improvements. The Believers are extremely dependent on well-developed cities in order to stay even with the other factions, so if you start burning their farms and collapsing their boreholes, they crash and burn!!!
Divmon posted 04-16-99 11:26 AM ET
I'm in the middle of a game as PK's and have just killed Miriam off (with a little, very little help from the Greens (the only others on my continent)
In this game I initially let the Believers kill off the Greens whilst I slowly built up some forces.
This was a mistake and I went back 100 years to do the job properly.
Its relatively easy to defeat the Beleivers early on. If they're attacking you, you need to get in amongst their bases, whilst they are coming for yours(Beleiver bases often left undefended) , judicious use of Mindworms is also a big help. Look for thier capital and take it first. (you will often get a good Secret Project as well), Also let them come at one of your cities with Infantry and dust them before they can attack. Miriam will pour her resources into getting some units together to attack you and you can outflank her .
Just don't leave it too late and never be nice to the Orange monsters
Corzican posted 04-17-99 12:40 AM ET
(1st time poster, long time crank
Actually, Miriam and her cronies can be very useful if you find them early game. If you send troops early into her territory and conquer a few cities, she becomes very submissive. Keep her updated with technology and keep your faction power greater than hers and you've got a good partner to help you cleanse Planet of all the other heathens. This seems to work best when I play Morganites, don't know why though.
Dick Knisely posted 04-19-99 12:17 PM ET
As a couple others have noted, I've found the key to squashing Miriam is to do it early.
TB can be a very tough late game conquest, as you're finding, but early on they'll have lots of units but they'll be behind the front runners (you of course!) in technology. Rarely will she Pact with UoP (thank heavens) because that pair becomes a very nasty combination. One of my early goals is to find everyone and especially her and Yang. They both will get special attention from me with the goal of getting a submission Pact with at least one of them. Another approach is to send in experienced probe teams to her nearest or most aggressive neighbor and successfully blame her thus provoking a war. Anything to keep her busy and keep the resources tied up. Leaving her alone for too long is not a good idea unless you really like a major war late in the game, and that can be a fun challenge also.
trippin daily posted 04-19-99 12:34 PM ET
I have a few tactics when having Miriam at my doorstep.
1. Don't give her anything and wait until you have the technology to complete wipe her out. I also try to keep everyone at war with her while I build up the tech to do this.
2. Befriend her, give her some techs, then use probe teams to make other pain in the arse factions declare Vendetta on her. She then procedes to go to war with that faction, thereby weaking both (Since both should now be at about the same tech level) NEVER give her your best weapon or your best armor, just give her whats sufficent to give her a chance against an opposing faction. This causes both factions to be stuck in an incredibly bloody and indecisive war. I've only tried this srategy once, and it worked great. I could imagine that it could backfire though. So be careful if you use it.
Rong posted 04-19-99 01:04 PM ET
1. Repeal UN Charter
2. Build Planet Busters like there is no tomorrow
3. Believers? What believers?
Klug posted 04-19-99 02:13 PM ET
I've only earned a paltry 313% on Thinker level but I'll add my 2cents worth anyway...
The Believers have great probes & good attack bonuses. That means they'll attack you alot & probe you to death. BUT if they do go to Fundementalist their at -30% TEch. So if you defend yourself against the probes they lose in a long protracted building race. You thing you can do Is make Cheap probes. Probe teams based based on infantry rather than Speeder chassis. Then probes cost like 20 & can be made in bulk. You make like 2 to 3 to a city (Even more are better)and keep a rover with no armor/best weapon & on sentry & use it to destroy probes as they come in (Can also be used to take care of worms too). DON'T have roads leading from your empire to theirs, destroy them if necessary. A road directly leading from your city to a believer city means you'll have probe problems.
If their even with you on tech then your screwed, unless you can make mind worms or Locusts & even then you have to have biology labs, cantauri preserves & suitable special projects to get the worm powerful enough to combat the Believer natural moral advantage.
Also attacking & taking their cities will force the AI to make troops to defend itself with not probes. Usually your tech should outstrip theirs that means that even if they have plasma AAA garrisons in a city with Aerospace complex
That makes...3x2x2x1.5(elite)=18 or so defense...
You have elite Shard squads doing 19-20...
You DID make Aerospace complexes right?
I love the Cyborg factory when I'm going to war...
My favorite combo are Choppers with Drop squads. But its still nice having some Air superiority planes or choppers to guard against their air-force..
Klug posted 04-19-99 02:16 PM ET
I've only earned a paltry 313% on Thinker level but I'll add my 2cents worth anyway...
The Believers have great probes & good attack bonuses. That means they'll attack you alot & probe you to death. BUT if they do go to Fundementalist their at -30% TEch. So if you defend yourself against the probes they lose in a long protracted building race. You thing you can do Is make Cheap probes. Probe teams based based on infantry rather than Speeder chassis. Then probes cost like 20 & can be made in bulk. You make like 2 to 3 to a city (Even more are better)and keep a rover with no armor/best weapon & on sentry & use it to destroy probes as they come in (Can also be used to take care of worms too). DON'T have roads leading from your empire to theirs, destroy them if necessary. A road directly leading from your city to a believer city means you'll have probe problems.
If their even with you on tech then your screwed, unless you can make mind worms or Locusts & even then you have to have biology labs, cantauri preserves & suitable special projects to get the worm powerful enough to combat the Believer natural moral advantage.
Also attacking & taking their cities will force the AI to make troops to defend itself with not probes. Usually your tech should outstrip theirs that means that even if they have plasma AAA garrisons in a city with Aerospace complex
That makes...3x2x2x1.5(elite)=18 or so defense...
You have elite Shard squads doing 19-20...
You DID make Aerospace complexes right?
I love the Cyborg factory when I'm going to war...
My favorite combo are Choppers with Drop squads. But its still nice having some Air superiority planes or choppers to guard against their air-force..
Possibility posted 04-19-99 06:07 PM ET
Why are Believers so tough? You guys are just sorry WIMPS. I personally never research a single tech beyond the first 3 or 4 (I set my taxes to 100%). So all the computer factions are more advanced then me, even the believers. I just go full scale war and crush them all. Believers are nothing compared to one with better military tactics. Any faction can be destroyed even when you are out numbered 5 to 1 and they are more advanced then you. I do it all the time. What matters is how you use your units. For every one of my units lost, I take about 8 of the enemies. You pussies just have to learn some military strategies.
Possibility
May the possibilities remain infinite.
Possibility posted 04-19-99 06:09 PM ET
Oh, I forgot to say I play on Transcender difficulty level.
Plato90s posted 04-19-99 06:21 PM ET
Sure, sure.
"Possiblity", have you ever looked at the AI's production screen? It is impossible to match the AI in production because at Transcend level, the AI gets all kinds of production bonuses.
If you research only the first 3-4 techs, then you can't even get probe team. No new techs means you're pitting your measly Laser Synthsteel squads against Missle Shock Troops by the end of the first century.
Perhaps a better screen name would be "impossibility"
Ken Yoon posted 04-19-99 06:51 PM ET
In the games I've played, thankfully the Believers aren't on my continent. If they are, then I just wipe them off immediately.
But then again, I play custom maps with max water. The water makes it tough for the believers to attack me.
What I usually do is ignore the believers for most of the game. By mid-game, the Believers have colonized the ocean. Once they get too close, I hop from seabase to seabase, leading with a chopper or two followed by a crusier. They quickly lose all their sea bases and offer a pact.
trippin daily posted 04-19-99 08:40 PM ET
Possibility... Is it possible you are lying. Tactics can pay off to an extent, but when the game is based on mathematical equations, tactics don't do **** in actual combat. I play on transcend level, and I know that an Impact Infantry doesn't stand a chance against a silksteel garrison behind a perimeter defense. It just won't win. I think you are full of **** when you say that. And for calling these people wimps, why do you do that. Are you on the forum just to harass people. I know I'm on the forum to exchange knowledge. If you have a game... using the ORIGINAL *.txt files on transcend that is ironman, and you are close to winning (ie. one city away). Please send that file to me, I would love to see it. You can send it to [email protected] Yeah, I know aol sucks, but I'm stuck with it
HolyWarrior posted 04-20-99 12:15 AM ET
Klug, that's actually -40% research with Fundy.
But who cares. A true Believer should be putting all the SE into taxes and buying or stealing the tech. 4 units support per base is awesome, and the probes are great. And if anyone even TRIES to build Hunter-Seeker, smoke 'em!
After seeing the Believers trashed on other threads, you don't know how happy you guys have made me.
cousLee posted 04-20-99 12:26 AM ET
Believers are awsome. I play them all the time TI in SP.
cousLee posted 04-20-99 12:35 AM ET
trip, why are you stuck with aol? you can get netzero for free. no monthly service fees either. DL their program at www.netzero.com
they are no good for online MP games because of the advertisement box, but you can surf for free. I also recommend usa.net for an email address. 5mg storage and you can access from anywhere. less problems with them than hotmail.
also, you are not lying, ain't no way an impact vs silk behind PD is gonna win. (unless the garrison is 80% damaged)
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Author	Topic: How to stop Believers?
Speedo	posted 04-12-99 10:56 AM ET I'm playing against the Believers but they use AAA tracking against my copters and bombards my ships (their bases are on a island) and I can build only a few units because they launch into my bases dozens of missiles. They are killing all other factions, how can I stop them? Their units are VERY strong and I cant make atrocities.
ApcJK	posted 04-12-99 11:37 AM ET Hmm... maybe you could build lots of probe teams and sabotage their productions. Or destroy their facilities that keep people happy?
ApcJK	posted 04-12-99 11:37 AM ET Or were they immune to probe teams?
trippin daily	posted 04-12-99 03:47 PM ET They are immune to probe teams... at least everytime i've tried to go after them with it they are The key to beating the believers is to NEVER let them attack your units first, always attack theirs if possible... in the early game.. that +25% bonus can virtually garauntee they will kill most of what they attack... just quickly get the chaos gun, and go on a shooting spree
dbrodale	posted 04-12-99 09:40 PM ET I believe that the Believers are only immune to MIND CONTROL. You may still use probe teams to divert energy, sabotage facilities, incite riots, etc. The best offense v. the Believers is to prevent them from climbing the tech tree in the first place - easier said than done, I know, but if you can stagnate their relations with others [usu. strained anyway] and not trade them anything, they will come to be outclassed in the field, regardless of numbers. d.brodale
HolyWarrior	posted 04-12-99 11:09 PM ET Chuckle...you don't know how happy you have made me. At last, a post complaining that the Believers are too powerful. Now I can play SMAC fully content.
Chaos	posted 04-12-99 11:29 PM ET I don't have any problems with the Believers. I find defeating them very easy. One tactic is to have another fraction help you. While they are fighting you can build up your army and attack. Not only do you destroy the Believers, but you can weaken another fraction.
morphyne	posted 04-13-99 05:48 AM ET True, the Believers' militant stance towards success does give them strained relations, but I haven't really seen a difference between them and the others. They are immune to mind control because they start out with +1 Probe, and are always Fundamentalist, bringing them up to +3. Even if you were to use probe teams, your success rate would be 50% less and cost twice as much. Basically, if you can take the offensive early in the game and keep them from climbing the tech tree, you've won. Still, they are not unbeatable, and their strength tends to dwindle in times of peace. Personally I don't really think they are too powerful, at times the Hive seems to be so(if used by a human) due to their immunity to inefficency, but I think it is all fairly well balanced.
woodelf	posted 04-13-99 05:49 AM ET In my experience if you don't jump on Miriam early she will be a nusiance if not a downright pain in the ass the entire game. Having her on a border, even as a friend, makes me cringe. If possible, wipe her out early. If not, get the HSA and shore up your borders. Never, ever give her anything.
GaryD	posted 04-13-99 09:30 AM ET How to stop Believers ? Give them Hell ! (Alternatively you can tell them that you are just going out when they knock on your door.)
Dark Phoenix	posted 04-14-99 11:01 AM ET Best advice I can give you is to trash their improvements. The Believers are extremely dependent on well-developed cities in order to stay even with the other factions, so if you start burning their farms and collapsing their boreholes, they crash and burn!!!
Divmon	posted 04-16-99 11:26 AM ET I'm in the middle of a game as PK's and have just killed Miriam off (with a little, very little help from the Greens (the only others on my continent) In this game I initially let the Believers kill off the Greens whilst I slowly built up some forces. This was a mistake and I went back 100 years to do the job properly. Its relatively easy to defeat the Beleivers early on. If they're attacking you, you need to get in amongst their bases, whilst they are coming for yours(Beleiver bases often left undefended) , judicious use of Mindworms is also a big help. Look for thier capital and take it first. (you will often get a good Secret Project as well), Also let them come at one of your cities with Infantry and dust them before they can attack. Miriam will pour her resources into getting some units together to attack you and you can outflank her . Just don't leave it too late and never be nice to the Orange monsters
Corzican	posted 04-17-99 12:40 AM ET (1st time poster, long time crank Actually, Miriam and her cronies can be very useful if you find them early game. If you send troops early into her territory and conquer a few cities, she becomes very submissive. Keep her updated with technology and keep your faction power greater than hers and you've got a good partner to help you cleanse Planet of all the other heathens. This seems to work best when I play Morganites, don't know why though.
Dick Knisely	posted 04-19-99 12:17 PM ET As a couple others have noted, I've found the key to squashing Miriam is to do it early. TB can be a very tough late game conquest, as you're finding, but early on they'll have lots of units but they'll be behind the front runners (you of course!) in technology. Rarely will she Pact with UoP (thank heavens) because that pair becomes a very nasty combination. One of my early goals is to find everyone and especially her and Yang. They both will get special attention from me with the goal of getting a submission Pact with at least one of them. Another approach is to send in experienced probe teams to her nearest or most aggressive neighbor and successfully blame her thus provoking a war. Anything to keep her busy and keep the resources tied up. Leaving her alone for too long is not a good idea unless you really like a major war late in the game, and that can be a fun challenge also.
trippin daily	posted 04-19-99 12:34 PM ET I have a few tactics when having Miriam at my doorstep. 1. Don't give her anything and wait until you have the technology to complete wipe her out. I also try to keep everyone at war with her while I build up the tech to do this. 2. Befriend her, give her some techs, then use probe teams to make other pain in the arse factions declare Vendetta on her. She then procedes to go to war with that faction, thereby weaking both (Since both should now be at about the same tech level) NEVER give her your best weapon or your best armor, just give her whats sufficent to give her a chance against an opposing faction. This causes both factions to be stuck in an incredibly bloody and indecisive war. I've only tried this srategy once, and it worked great. I could imagine that it could backfire though. So be careful if you use it.
Rong	posted 04-19-99 01:04 PM ET 1. Repeal UN Charter 2. Build Planet Busters like there is no tomorrow 3. Believers? What believers?
Klug	posted 04-19-99 02:13 PM ET I've only earned a paltry 313% on Thinker level but I'll add my 2cents worth anyway... The Believers have great probes & good attack bonuses. That means they'll attack you alot & probe you to death. BUT if they do go to Fundementalist their at -30% TEch. So if you defend yourself against the probes they lose in a long protracted building race. You thing you can do Is make Cheap probes. Probe teams based based on infantry rather than Speeder chassis. Then probes cost like 20 & can be made in bulk. You make like 2 to 3 to a city (Even more are better)and keep a rover with no armor/best weapon & on sentry & use it to destroy probes as they come in (Can also be used to take care of worms too). DON'T have roads leading from your empire to theirs, destroy them if necessary. A road directly leading from your city to a believer city means you'll have probe problems. If their even with you on tech then your screwed, unless you can make mind worms or Locusts & even then you have to have biology labs, cantauri preserves & suitable special projects to get the worm powerful enough to combat the Believer natural moral advantage. Also attacking & taking their cities will force the AI to make troops to defend itself with not probes. Usually your tech should outstrip theirs that means that even if they have plasma AAA garrisons in a city with Aerospace complex That makes...3x2x2x1.5(elite)=18 or so defense... You have elite Shard squads doing 19-20... You DID make Aerospace complexes right? I love the Cyborg factory when I'm going to war... My favorite combo are Choppers with Drop squads. But its still nice having some Air superiority planes or choppers to guard against their air-force..
Klug	posted 04-19-99 02:16 PM ET I've only earned a paltry 313% on Thinker level but I'll add my 2cents worth anyway... The Believers have great probes & good attack bonuses. That means they'll attack you alot & probe you to death. BUT if they do go to Fundementalist their at -30% TEch. So if you defend yourself against the probes they lose in a long protracted building race. You thing you can do Is make Cheap probes. Probe teams based based on infantry rather than Speeder chassis. Then probes cost like 20 & can be made in bulk. You make like 2 to 3 to a city (Even more are better)and keep a rover with no armor/best weapon & on sentry & use it to destroy probes as they come in (Can also be used to take care of worms too). DON'T have roads leading from your empire to theirs, destroy them if necessary. A road directly leading from your city to a believer city means you'll have probe problems. If their even with you on tech then your screwed, unless you can make mind worms or Locusts & even then you have to have biology labs, cantauri preserves & suitable special projects to get the worm powerful enough to combat the Believer natural moral advantage. Also attacking & taking their cities will force the AI to make troops to defend itself with not probes. Usually your tech should outstrip theirs that means that even if they have plasma AAA garrisons in a city with Aerospace complex That makes...3x2x2x1.5(elite)=18 or so defense... You have elite Shard squads doing 19-20... You DID make Aerospace complexes right? I love the Cyborg factory when I'm going to war... My favorite combo are Choppers with Drop squads. But its still nice having some Air superiority planes or choppers to guard against their air-force..
Possibility	posted 04-19-99 06:07 PM ET Why are Believers so tough? You guys are just sorry WIMPS. I personally never research a single tech beyond the first 3 or 4 (I set my taxes to 100%). So all the computer factions are more advanced then me, even the believers. I just go full scale war and crush them all. Believers are nothing compared to one with better military tactics. Any faction can be destroyed even when you are out numbered 5 to 1 and they are more advanced then you. I do it all the time. What matters is how you use your units. For every one of my units lost, I take about 8 of the enemies. You pussies just have to learn some military strategies. Possibility May the possibilities remain infinite.
Possibility	posted 04-19-99 06:09 PM ET Oh, I forgot to say I play on Transcender difficulty level.
Plato90s	posted 04-19-99 06:21 PM ET Sure, sure. "Possiblity", have you ever looked at the AI's production screen? It is impossible to match the AI in production because at Transcend level, the AI gets all kinds of production bonuses. If you research only the first 3-4 techs, then you can't even get probe team. No new techs means you're pitting your measly Laser Synthsteel squads against Missle Shock Troops by the end of the first century. Perhaps a better screen name would be "impossibility"
Ken Yoon	posted 04-19-99 06:51 PM ET In the games I've played, thankfully the Believers aren't on my continent. If they are, then I just wipe them off immediately. But then again, I play custom maps with max water. The water makes it tough for the believers to attack me. What I usually do is ignore the believers for most of the game. By mid-game, the Believers have colonized the ocean. Once they get too close, I hop from seabase to seabase, leading with a chopper or two followed by a crusier. They quickly lose all their sea bases and offer a pact.
trippin daily	posted 04-19-99 08:40 PM ET Possibility... Is it possible you are lying. Tactics can pay off to an extent, but when the game is based on mathematical equations, tactics don't do ** in actual combat. I play on transcend level, and I know that an Impact Infantry doesn't stand a chance against a silksteel garrison behind a perimeter defense. It just won't win. I think you are full of ** when you say that. And for calling these people wimps, why do you do that. Are you on the forum just to harass people. I know I'm on the forum to exchange knowledge. If you have a game... using the ORIGINAL *.txt files on transcend that is ironman, and you are close to winning (ie. one city away). Please send that file to me, I would love to see it. You can send it to [email protected] Yeah, I know aol sucks, but I'm stuck with it
HolyWarrior	posted 04-20-99 12:15 AM ET Klug, that's actually -40% research with Fundy. But who cares. A true Believer should be putting all the SE into taxes and buying or stealing the tech. 4 units support per base is awesome, and the probes are great. And if anyone even TRIES to build Hunter-Seeker, smoke 'em! After seeing the Believers trashed on other threads, you don't know how happy you guys have made me.
cousLee	posted 04-20-99 12:26 AM ET Believers are awsome. I play them all the time TI in SP.
cousLee	posted 04-20-99 12:35 AM ET trip, why are you stuck with aol? you can get netzero for free. no monthly service fees either. DL their program at www.netzero.com they are no good for online MP games because of the advertisement box, but you can surf for free. I also recommend usa.net for an email address. 5mg storage and you can access from anywhere. less problems with them than hotmail. also, you are not lying, ain't no way an impact vs silk behind PD is gonna win. (unless the garrison is 80% damaged)