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Author Topic:   Needlejets are so useless!!!!!

Psimanic posted 04-06-99 09:20 PM ET
Tell me please if i`m just strange, but I think that needlejets are one of the crapest military units around.
1. You can only attack once, before having to return to base to refuel.
2. They can only explore so far, and no further, so attacking any remote hostiles is impossible.
3. They have no secret projects that improve their morale except the cyborg factory. (land units have command nexus, and sea units have maritime C.C.)
4. Erm......they suck. Locusts of chiron are so much better.
Someone tell me if im missing something here!
JT 3 posted 04-06-99 09:32 PM ET
Hmmm.... let's see.... I'm attacking the Hive with Impact Rovers. Since they are defendeing with Plasma, that makes their strength 6(with Perimeter) and mine 4. Ouch. Suddenly, I discover Air Power! I build Needlejets and <gasp!> they ignore the defense! Now it's 3 to 4, _my_ favor. Submissive Pact, here I come!
Now, this might be a bit unrealistic(I usually get Fossil Feuls before Air Power), but the point is, they can be useful early to mid-game. Of course you're not going to use them when you could use Locusts. But this is early game. It's like asking "What's the point of Rovers when you have Hovertanks?". The jets aren't for the entire game.
Psimanic posted 04-06-99 09:40 PM ET
OK, I can see your point there, but what about the mind worms. They are there from the start of the game, can be captured so no manufacture is needed, and always have that god send of a 3:2 advantage of ground units.
Actually, I didn`t realise that air units ignored perimeter defences, it`s what happens when you don`t read the manual!
JT 3 posted 04-06-99 09:45 PM ET
Yes, but if you're in Free Market, you can't capture them, now can you? Also, if you breed them in the early game, you can only get them to Pre-Boil status. If you attack, your advantage is almost completely destroyed by the Morale.
Psimanic posted 04-06-99 10:51 PM ET
Now that you mention it, Free Market also sucks!
There are far better ways to improve economy than that! Besides, I usually use Gaians, so I can almost always catch mind-worms. And if there is a moral problem, monoliths work WONDERS with mind-worms.
WyldKarde posted 04-07-99 12:11 AM ET
I'd have to disagree about Needlejets only being of use during the early game, I use them throughout the entire event.
"Why?" I'll pretend you ask so I can get in an explanation.
In a word, range. Needlejets can travel further in a single turn than any other unit with an equivalent reactor, with the possible exception of some missiles (haven't checked the figures there). With Deep Radar they're excellent recon units, they'll hit targets further away, and you just try bombing a sensor array or Borehole with a copter and watch it land and take that 30% damage hit.
While there's no denying that the copter is easily the best air unit for most warfare, particularly in target rich environments near a friendly base, when you're operating at a distance, or need something that can quickly get from point A to B, the Needlejet is your best friend.
Now if y'all will excuse me, I'm involved in a border skirmish with Chairman Yang and the sensor array that's letting him hold The Hive needs taking out.
dbrodale posted 04-07-99 12:49 AM ET
Replies:
Re: (1) - such is life. <g>
Re: (2) - the range of needlejets in a single "swoop" is much farther than most other units until the discovery of gravships. This is the primary advantage over copters when engaging in island-to-island combat.
Re: (3) - the aerospace complex modifies morale level by +2, bioenhancement center [also Cyborg Factory SP] is another +2. There is no disadvantage here other than the fact that no SP = automatic aerospace complexes [your point, I think], but considering that these complexes are tied to the use and construction of orbital facilities [important in late game], a SP granting an aerospace complex in each base would be a bit too much.
Re 4) - again, locusts have a lowered range [8 tiles at demon boil status] and must engage in psi combat, which at times makes them *weaker* than a needlejet, depending on what tech level one is at and what other mods. to combat enter play. Locusts are very good at taking cities and moving toward a distant target where you lack a chain of bases to ferry needlejets, so there is some advantage. On the other hand, you can build needlejets with clean reactors [= no support cost], but locusts will always count toward support levels.
Just some thoughts here,
d.brodale
Mortis posted 04-07-99 08:25 AM ET
> 4. Erm......they suck. Locusts of chiron are so much better.
Well, all I have to say is... I haven't seen some locusts with a singulartiy reactor lately, have you?
Fiannaidh posted 04-07-99 09:15 AM ET
When needlejets hurt is when Yang has 500 of them in one base, then you mind control that base, and use your captured units to take over 10 more bases that turn, just keep sending in those needlejets and evetually you'll break down his defenses.
Kyle posted 04-07-99 12:52 PM ET
Personally, I've found them very useful. In my last (and final) war with The Believers, I used several in concert to perform bombing runs on Miriam's cities, in order to soften them up.
It is best to use several at a time, also in conjunction with a naval bombardment (if possible). Set it up, so while some are returning to base, the rest are on their bombing runs. That way, every turn, the city you are going after will be hit. They are quite useful against low tech enemies, who defend their cities with a lot of (relatively) weak units.
micje posted 04-07-99 06:36 PM ET
Interceptor needlejets are great. They're hard to kill, can only be attacked by other interceptors, and they protect any ground units beneath them (like probe teams or stacks of low-defense rovers.
By the way, locusts are BETTER than sing. engine.
Fiannaidh posted 04-07-99 06:59 PM ET
I suppose that depends on whether or not its a blink singularity deathsphere or not, doesn't it?
Fiannaidh posted 04-07-99 07:00 PM ET
hehe, hehehehehe
hehehehehhe. Hehehehehhe! hehehehhehe?
Fiannaidh posted 04-07-99 07:00 PM ET
hehe, hehehehehe
hehehehehhe. Hehehehehhe! hehehehhehe?
Mortis posted 04-07-99 09:54 PM ET
Personaly, I try to say out of confilct of any sort, untill I get Doc: Air Power. The Needle Jet is probably the best unit there.
micje posted 04-08-99 10:08 PM ET
No, Fiannaidh. If I attack your blink sing. blabla deathsphere with a locust, I'll probably win.
Ken Yoon posted 04-09-99 08:03 PM ET
I used to think needlejets were always worthless. As the computer would send them to attack me, I'd just get a copter and destroy em all one by one.
But then I played a game with the UN charter revoked. I put nerve gas on my needlejets and voila! One attack on a size 8 major early/mid game city and it becomes a average usefulness size 4 city. Another attack 2 turns later makes it size 2 - nearly unimportant.
Now, with nerve gas, the one attack every other turn isn't so bad.
Plato90s posted 04-10-99 01:42 AM ET
Try attacking a singularity Gravship, and even a Demon Boil Locust won't do well. And if the person being attacked has Neural Amp and you don't have Dream Twister, it gets uglier.
Locusts are great until you get Gravship, but they are not more powerful than Gravships.
A Singularity Gravship can go 16 spaces vs. 8 spaces for a Locust.
A Singularity Gravship has power = 40 and attack up to 48 [Singularity Laser, Elite. Blink] vs a maximum possible defense of 20 [Stasis Elite Sensor]. That's a 2.4:1 advantage. Locusts attacking a Gravship gets a 2:1 advantage at best in Psi ratings but a strong disadvantage in power [max of 10 vs. 40]
Mortis posted 04-10-99 11:59 AM ET
Singularity = 30, Even as a psi unit, ?-?-16*4, Trained, is better then Demon locusts.
JT 3 posted 04-10-99 12:13 PM ET
Ummm.... those strengths would be 60 vs 22.5.
Sorry.(Although that proves your point even better, doesn't it?)
JT 3 posted 04-10-99 12:15 PM ET
OOPS! I meant 36 vs. 22.5. Now I _am_ sorry.
ProximaCentauri posted 04-11-99 04:17 AM ET
The best advantage of needlejets is defense, especially if you have many sea bases or are playing on an island world. Send the jets on regular patrol missions beyond your sea borders and you'll spot those enemy cruisers and transports that are sneaking up on you. Nothing is more enjoyable than watching an enemy transport sink to the bottom along with its cargo of 6 ground units.
Psimanic posted 04-11-99 11:30 AM ET
Erm.......No offence meant here people but read the title!
NEEDLEJETS are so useless!
Gravships are infact very good, and I use them as soon as I get the technology, mainly because they have no fuel and therefore range disadvantage, so I can send them halfway across the globe with out having to return them to base. In terms of psi-attacks, of course gravships will have the advantage if you give it all those advantages!!!!!!!
Strictly speaking, the bog standard ratio is 1:1, so they are evenly matched, but it`s far easier to produce demon boils than it is to produce elite gravships! (biology lab, pholus mutagen and god knowes how many other SP's, make producing powerful locusts a sinch)
trippin daily posted 04-11-99 12:55 PM ET
Well for some of use that aren't running the game on p2's and 3's the gravship isn't that big of a deal.. cause with a regular pentium, huge maps can become major pain due to the long time between turns... On a normal, r large map, i stil find them incredibly useful.. and u get them way before gravships.... most of the time if i wait to get gravships, i will get wiped out, i have to attack a few people at least to survive, r the AI's bonuses on Transcend will wipe me completely out. So Needlejets r ****in great
micje posted 04-11-99 07:36 PM ET
I think Needlejets are useless compared to locusts and 'copters.
Klug posted 04-13-99 02:35 PM ET
Ok, when I make my air force. Most (say 80%) are choppers. But Planes have longer range (20-26 opposed to 12-13) Yes planes have a return trip but Choppers have to travel to their target too. That makes them difficult on remotely located Sea bases. That means with 4 intercepters I can attack remote bases & use those bases as a new Air force base for my choppers. So admittedly, choppers are what I usually use to clear out cities with but a plane's longer range comes in handy sometimes. Grav ships are cool but they appear significantly later in the game than choppers.
SO I wouldn't call Planes worthless.
But again, that's just my opinion.
Goobmeister posted 04-13-99 03:06 PM ET
I've found that even getting two missile or Shard penetrators, that will, each on alternating turns start bombing runs on an opponents city while I build up an invasion force work nicely. The choppers are great for coming in on the turn of the attack and finishing any resistance off but they are not continual bombing machines that the needlejets can be.
Granted when the AI's air to air choppers come after me the make short work of my needlejets. OTOH if for even one turn the AI's choppers are left refeuling on the ground...heeheehe
Goobmeister
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Author	Topic: Needlejets are so useless!!!!!
Psimanic	posted 04-06-99 09:20 PM ET Tell me please if i`m just strange, but I think that needlejets are one of the crapest military units around. 1. You can only attack once, before having to return to base to refuel. 2. They can only explore so far, and no further, so attacking any remote hostiles is impossible. 3. They have no secret projects that improve their morale except the cyborg factory. (land units have command nexus, and sea units have maritime C.C.) 4. Erm......they suck. Locusts of chiron are so much better. Someone tell me if im missing something here!
JT 3	posted 04-06-99 09:32 PM ET Hmmm.... let's see.... I'm attacking the Hive with Impact Rovers. Since they are defendeing with Plasma, that makes their strength 6(with Perimeter) and mine 4. Ouch. Suddenly, I discover Air Power! I build Needlejets and <gasp!> they ignore the defense! Now it's 3 to 4, _my_ favor. Submissive Pact, here I come! Now, this might be a bit unrealistic(I usually get Fossil Feuls before Air Power), but the point is, they can be useful early to mid-game. Of course you're not going to use them when you could use Locusts. But this is early game. It's like asking "What's the point of Rovers when you have Hovertanks?". The jets aren't for the entire game.
Psimanic	posted 04-06-99 09:40 PM ET OK, I can see your point there, but what about the mind worms. They are there from the start of the game, can be captured so no manufacture is needed, and always have that god send of a 3:2 advantage of ground units. Actually, I didn`t realise that air units ignored perimeter defences, it`s what happens when you don`t read the manual!
JT 3	posted 04-06-99 09:45 PM ET Yes, but if you're in Free Market, you can't capture them, now can you? Also, if you breed them in the early game, you can only get them to Pre-Boil status. If you attack, your advantage is almost completely destroyed by the Morale.
Psimanic	posted 04-06-99 10:51 PM ET Now that you mention it, Free Market also sucks! There are far better ways to improve economy than that! Besides, I usually use Gaians, so I can almost always catch mind-worms. And if there is a moral problem, monoliths work WONDERS with mind-worms.
WyldKarde	posted 04-07-99 12:11 AM ET I'd have to disagree about Needlejets only being of use during the early game, I use them throughout the entire event. "Why?" I'll pretend you ask so I can get in an explanation. In a word, range. Needlejets can travel further in a single turn than any other unit with an equivalent reactor, with the possible exception of some missiles (haven't checked the figures there). With Deep Radar they're excellent recon units, they'll hit targets further away, and you just try bombing a sensor array or Borehole with a copter and watch it land and take that 30% damage hit. While there's no denying that the copter is easily the best air unit for most warfare, particularly in target rich environments near a friendly base, when you're operating at a distance, or need something that can quickly get from point A to B, the Needlejet is your best friend. Now if y'all will excuse me, I'm involved in a border skirmish with Chairman Yang and the sensor array that's letting him hold The Hive needs taking out.
dbrodale	posted 04-07-99 12:49 AM ET Replies: Re: (1) - such is life. <g> Re: (2) - the range of needlejets in a single "swoop" is much farther than most other units until the discovery of gravships. This is the primary advantage over copters when engaging in island-to-island combat. Re: (3) - the aerospace complex modifies morale level by +2, bioenhancement center [also Cyborg Factory SP] is another +2. There is no disadvantage here other than the fact that no SP = automatic aerospace complexes [your point, I think], but considering that these complexes are tied to the use and construction of orbital facilities [important in late game], a SP granting an aerospace complex in each base would be a bit too much. Re 4) - again, locusts have a lowered range [8 tiles at demon boil status] and must engage in psi combat, which at times makes them weaker than a needlejet, depending on what tech level one is at and what other mods. to combat enter play. Locusts are very good at taking cities and moving toward a distant target where you lack a chain of bases to ferry needlejets, so there is some advantage. On the other hand, you can build needlejets with clean reactors [= no support cost], but locusts will always count toward support levels. Just some thoughts here, d.brodale
Mortis	posted 04-07-99 08:25 AM ET > 4. Erm......they suck. Locusts of chiron are so much better. Well, all I have to say is... I haven't seen some locusts with a singulartiy reactor lately, have you?
Fiannaidh	posted 04-07-99 09:15 AM ET When needlejets hurt is when Yang has 500 of them in one base, then you mind control that base, and use your captured units to take over 10 more bases that turn, just keep sending in those needlejets and evetually you'll break down his defenses.
Kyle	posted 04-07-99 12:52 PM ET Personally, I've found them very useful. In my last (and final) war with The Believers, I used several in concert to perform bombing runs on Miriam's cities, in order to soften them up. It is best to use several at a time, also in conjunction with a naval bombardment (if possible). Set it up, so while some are returning to base, the rest are on their bombing runs. That way, every turn, the city you are going after will be hit. They are quite useful against low tech enemies, who defend their cities with a lot of (relatively) weak units.
micje	posted 04-07-99 06:36 PM ET Interceptor needlejets are great. They're hard to kill, can only be attacked by other interceptors, and they protect any ground units beneath them (like probe teams or stacks of low-defense rovers. By the way, locusts are BETTER than sing. engine.
Fiannaidh	posted 04-07-99 06:59 PM ET I suppose that depends on whether or not its a blink singularity deathsphere or not, doesn't it?
Fiannaidh	posted 04-07-99 07:00 PM ET hehe, hehehehehe hehehehehhe. Hehehehehhe! hehehehhehe?
Fiannaidh	posted 04-07-99 07:00 PM ET hehe, hehehehehe hehehehehhe. Hehehehehhe! hehehehhehe?
Mortis	posted 04-07-99 09:54 PM ET Personaly, I try to say out of confilct of any sort, untill I get Doc: Air Power. The Needle Jet is probably the best unit there.
micje	posted 04-08-99 10:08 PM ET No, Fiannaidh. If I attack your blink sing. blabla deathsphere with a locust, I'll probably win.
Ken Yoon	posted 04-09-99 08:03 PM ET I used to think needlejets were always worthless. As the computer would send them to attack me, I'd just get a copter and destroy em all one by one. But then I played a game with the UN charter revoked. I put nerve gas on my needlejets and voila! One attack on a size 8 major early/mid game city and it becomes a average usefulness size 4 city. Another attack 2 turns later makes it size 2 - nearly unimportant. Now, with nerve gas, the one attack every other turn isn't so bad.
Plato90s	posted 04-10-99 01:42 AM ET Try attacking a singularity Gravship, and even a Demon Boil Locust won't do well. And if the person being attacked has Neural Amp and you don't have Dream Twister, it gets uglier. Locusts are great until you get Gravship, but they are not more powerful than Gravships. A Singularity Gravship can go 16 spaces vs. 8 spaces for a Locust. A Singularity Gravship has power = 40 and attack up to 48 [Singularity Laser, Elite. Blink] vs a maximum possible defense of 20 [Stasis Elite Sensor]. That's a 2.4:1 advantage. Locusts attacking a Gravship gets a 2:1 advantage at best in Psi ratings but a strong disadvantage in power [max of 10 vs. 40]
Mortis	posted 04-10-99 11:59 AM ET Singularity = 30, Even as a psi unit, ?-?-16*4, Trained, is better then Demon locusts.
JT 3	posted 04-10-99 12:13 PM ET Ummm.... those strengths would be 60 vs 22.5. Sorry.(Although that proves your point even better, doesn't it?)
JT 3	posted 04-10-99 12:15 PM ET OOPS! I meant 36 vs. 22.5. Now I _am_ sorry.
ProximaCentauri	posted 04-11-99 04:17 AM ET The best advantage of needlejets is defense, especially if you have many sea bases or are playing on an island world. Send the jets on regular patrol missions beyond your sea borders and you'll spot those enemy cruisers and transports that are sneaking up on you. Nothing is more enjoyable than watching an enemy transport sink to the bottom along with its cargo of 6 ground units.
Psimanic	posted 04-11-99 11:30 AM ET Erm.......No offence meant here people but read the title! NEEDLEJETS are so useless! Gravships are infact very good, and I use them as soon as I get the technology, mainly because they have no fuel and therefore range disadvantage, so I can send them halfway across the globe with out having to return them to base. In terms of psi-attacks, of course gravships will have the advantage if you give it all those advantages!!!!!!! Strictly speaking, the bog standard ratio is 1:1, so they are evenly matched, but it`s far easier to produce demon boils than it is to produce elite gravships! (biology lab, pholus mutagen and god knowes how many other SP's, make producing powerful locusts a sinch)
trippin daily	posted 04-11-99 12:55 PM ET Well for some of use that aren't running the game on p2's and 3's the gravship isn't that big of a deal.. cause with a regular pentium, huge maps can become major pain due to the long time between turns... On a normal, r large map, i stil find them incredibly useful.. and u get them way before gravships.... most of the time if i wait to get gravships, i will get wiped out, i have to attack a few people at least to survive, r the AI's bonuses on Transcend will wipe me completely out. So Needlejets r ****in great
micje	posted 04-11-99 07:36 PM ET I think Needlejets are useless compared to locusts and 'copters.
Klug	posted 04-13-99 02:35 PM ET Ok, when I make my air force. Most (say 80%) are choppers. But Planes have longer range (20-26 opposed to 12-13) Yes planes have a return trip but Choppers have to travel to their target too. That makes them difficult on remotely located Sea bases. That means with 4 intercepters I can attack remote bases & use those bases as a new Air force base for my choppers. So admittedly, choppers are what I usually use to clear out cities with but a plane's longer range comes in handy sometimes. Grav ships are cool but they appear significantly later in the game than choppers. SO I wouldn't call Planes worthless. But again, that's just my opinion.
Goobmeister	posted 04-13-99 03:06 PM ET I've found that even getting two missile or Shard penetrators, that will, each on alternating turns start bombing runs on an opponents city while I build up an invasion force work nicely. The choppers are great for coming in on the turn of the attack and finishing any resistance off but they are not continual bombing machines that the needlejets can be. Granted when the AI's air to air choppers come after me the make short work of my needlejets. OTOH if for even one turn the AI's choppers are left refeuling on the ground...heeheehe Goobmeister