posted 09-19-99 01:45 PM ET        

People here seem to hate the game, and the people behind it, with a vengance.

Why do I like the game? Simply because it is entertaining. People complain about graphics... and this may be a valid point (I have no problem with them myself.). However, CivI is still considered a classic, and a great game. It had terrible graphics. The argument is that while SMAC has better graphics than CivI, it has poorer graphics than its competitors. Fair enough. However, I try to judge a game on its own merits, and not in comparison. A game is either of good quality or of poor quality. This remains true whether it exists as the only game in the universe, or as one in a billion.

Bugs are another complaint. There are, essentially, two kinds of bugs. One causes the game not to work, and the other causes the game not to work as expected. I have been fortunate in never running into the first kind, though I can understand the frustration of those who do. As for the second kind, I can live with them. So the Space Elevator increases mineral production instead of requiring fewer minerals. The game still works, and is playable.

I enjoy playing SMAC.

Others don't enjoy the game, and I can't argue with them. However, this means that the quality of the game is a subjective matter, and not an objective one. Nobody can say "SMAC is a bad game", because this cannot be absolutely true. Similarly, no one can say "SMAC is a good game", because this cannot be absolutely true. What people can say is "I enjoy playing SMAC" or "I don't enjoy playing SMAC".

I don't think that Firaxis is evil, and I don't think that the people who think that firaxis is evil are evil either. What bothers me is people who have a subjective opinion about the game and declare it as the absolute and final truth.

Sorry. I needed to rant.

posted 09-19-99 11:30 PM ET            

This is not because it's a "bad" game or because Firaxis is evil. The bugs were just icing on what was, for me, a Civ cake I had already played to death. Of course, Brian was damned if he did and damned if he didn't: Design a radically new game, and people bitch. Keep it basically the same, and people bitch. Oh well, that's life.

Frankly, if Civ3 is really just Civ 2.5, I can't blame the man. That's safe and will no doubt sell well. Improved graphics and a few nice additions here and there are probably all it will take to make the game a huge success.

posted 09-20-99 01:29 PM ET            

So... then what is the point of hanging around, on a site that is sponsored by a company you disrespect, dedicated to a game that you don't play, insulting people that you disagree with, and fantasizing of influencing a formula that the developers, and a majority of their customers don't want to change?

Maybe JKM was a little more right in his observations about the "sense of community" than people care to admit...

posted 09-20-99 02:17 PM ET            

Thanks a million for makeing a god game better yin26.

posted 09-20-99 02:43 PM ET            

yin26, your views, as always, have been very clear and I respect you above most others for your efforts. I don't agree with alot of what you say, but at least you always try to back up what you're saying.

The role of the critic is an under-appreciated one. The same could be said for a QA guy. Both seek the same end result and one cannot do his job as well without the other.

BUT PLEASE, I don't want to turn this thread into another pro/anti firaxis or pro/anti Jeff.

I, like NotLikeTea, have had few problems with the game and just wanted to say that I agreed with JAMiAM.

Thank you yin26
Thank you Jeff

posted 09-20-99 04:46 PM ET            

When I read some of the messages, I had the impression that people genuinely hate Firaxis. This was especially worrying coming from Yin, a fellow I respect from the forums.

Seeing that people recognize that it is a matter of taste is a relief to me.

posted 09-20-99 08:11 PM ET            

Jam, you must be having another bad day. No problem.

1) I respect Firaxis.
2) I don't play SMAC anymore, but these are the same people who will be building Civ 3--on the SMAC engine, which brings me to
3) ...that's why I hang around with my "fantasy" of trying to influence the formula. Actually, Brian is pretty well known for accepting ideas and keeping his game open-ended as much a possible.
4) I always laugh at people's idea of what's an insult. Have we all lost our ability to criticize? Have I called Jeff an idiot or attacked him in any personal way? No, I said he mishandled the public relations end of things on SMAC. But he also did a lot of things right, especially considering he's literally a one-man QA department.

Trust me, if I thought Firaxis were incapable of improving over previous efforts, I wouldn't be here. But Firaxis DOES listen...so I'm talking.

And my thanks to people in this community who will continue to believe that we can influence this game when we make a concerted effort to do so. My dream is that we won't have to make a bug list for Civ 3, that we can come here and talk only about the cool strategies and amazing gameplay, etc. Oh, sure, we might put together a wish-list for Civ4, but hopefully that will only be done with a twinkle in our eyes.

Of course, some bugs will creep in, and we should get together and report them. And Firaxis should encourage us to help make their games better, which, more often than not, is the case as it is.

posted 09-20-99 11:21 PM ET            

Just shaking the shark cage, chum!

posted 09-21-99 11:29 AM ET            

I'm sure it'll be one hell of a blanket, by the time CIV3 comes out. Patience, it seems, is a virtue, by virtue of its scarcity. Lord knows, I've not been blessed!

posted 09-21-99 05:30 PM ET            

I have little respect for Firaxis.
I have a lot of respect for Jeff Morris.
I like SMAC, although I haven't played it in quite a while. (Did you get that, Imran?)

Pact Brother Yin, I can't swear to it, but I do believe you've made some inflammatory remarks about JKM in the past. Maybe it's just an impression. I know I have. Especially after he wrote that editorial about the Myth of the Bugless Game. However, I did like some OTHER things he wrote later on, and have since changed some of my attitude. (Yep, I bit on those sympathy pieces, as they were called around here).

JM has certainly bungled dealing with the SMAC Hardcore community. And he certainly gave us enough reasons to be insulted and mad. However, in the interest of honesty, we were already touchy about matters due to the lack of Firaxian Follow-up Hyping. Lots of teasing and foreplay, and then, boom. Nothing except, "that wasn't us!" attitudes and "you must be mistaken!". Seriously. Their were problems in SMAC that were not just a matter of odd hardware configurations, but they wouldn't admit it. It's too bad they aren't as good at follow through on the PR as they are at Hyping, otherwise we'd all be the HAPPY hardcore bunch, speculating about the IMPROVEMENTS that we are going to see in SMACAX and whether the improvements to the SMAC engine for Civ3 would make it into SMAC2.

What are we doing instead?

A: JM sucks big toes!
B: You're crazy! And stay away from my toes!
C: SMAC sucks!
D: No it doesn't!
I: I hate you YIN!
Y: But I love you, Imran.

Sad.
I'm still here, as I think:
1) The quality of Civ3 needs to be better, IMAO, than SMAC, so I am going to make noise so that it's one more voice calling for QUALITY as a priority, not an after-thought.
2) SMAC and Civ2 are amoung the better TBS games until Civ3 gets here to eclipse everyone.
3) Firaxis PR still sux, and enjoy bitching about it.
4) I can tell people to buy SMAC at a bargain price, and then get a $10 rebate.

I understand that there are a few people at Firaxis making an effort at improving PR. Good. That's better than before. But Firaxis isn't a YOUNG company. They have some of the most experienced people around, including their leading 3 big names, Jeff Briggs, Sid Meier, and Brian Reynolds. Those people know the worth of Hype, PR, a GREAT Game design, and a hardcore fan base.

Personally, if Firaxis has a PR problem, I think it HAS to come from the top down. Reasons? BR says he learned the worth of Hardcore fans making Civ2. And that's why he's gone to them for Civ3. But aside from that, he hasn't a use for us? No other PR unless it's hype for a new game/module. That's sad. Just a little PR now and then will keep the hard-core HARD, yeilding more FREE assistance and more SALES... and as a company, that's what they want... sales.

Sorry, but there is no way we can keep an active thread about loving SMAC from touching on reactions to Firaxis.

SMAC is a good game. Anyone that likes that civ type of TBS game should check it out. Not at premium price, certainly, as it's not worth that NOW that Civ3 is on the horizon, SMACAX is coming out, and in the future, there will be bundle deals and maybe a SMAC Gold (both SMAC and SMACAX)... Not to mention NON-Firaxian products due out between now and Civ3 that have equal promise of fun...

posted 09-21-99 06:21 PM ET            

Well said. Yes, I went through an angry phase with Jeff, like other here did. But I also tried to work closely with him on patch 4.0, which produced basically a line by line fix of our legitimate requests for bug fixes. Aside from the load time issue, that was a great job on his part.

Anyone interested in how my Jeff debate is playing out should visit the General forum at firaxis.com--it's too damn much to be copied here. But I'm with Darkstar: