Arrgh Me Matey, Time to walk the plank....

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Author Topic:   Arrgh Me Matey, Time to walk the plank....

LdZpln posted 09-15-99 10:32 PM ET
The Pirates are coming
The Pirates are coming
I like the idea of conquering defeated ships, kind of like probe team capturing enemy units, i wonder if it's a probability or automatic. It may make them too powerful otherwise. Just build up a strong fleet outside an enemies base and when they build a ship attack until it's yours, now you're even stronger to do it next time....
LdZpln
jsorense posted 09-16-99 10:49 AM ET
Rats!
I was expecting Episode V along with the Pirates.
Waaaaaaaa!
jsorense posted 09-16-99 11:37 AM ET
Never mind.
ForcePacifist posted 09-16-99 12:15 PM ET
but the lumpy headed aliens tryin to out human the humans are coming to. this bothers me.
LdZpln posted 09-19-99 08:24 PM ET
ForcePacifist: Why are you bothered by the LumpHeads?
Is it so hard to believe that if we can travel to another planet to colonize it, that there are no other species who can or have? That that other species would necessarily have a problem competing for resources with us?
If you look at the animal kingdom, you will see many species (factions) that ignore, cooperate or compete for resources. They are forced to do so or risk extinction. Only one species on our planet has a distinct advantage though, humans. We move into hazardous environments all the time to exploit the resources there for us to grow and thrive.
What if there were another species who had the means to compete with us for these resources? At this point (...depending on how many times you've been abducted) we have not encountered any species who really presents us a challenge.
Does this mean that there are no such species? Of course not. So it is plausible that we could encounter an alien race with features that allow it to compete with us or overwhelm us.
These aliens would need resources, just as any species does, and would do what they were capable and willing to do, to secure them. Does this make them human, no certainly not. it just means they don't assess us as being any greater threat then what we've assessed other species in our history.
The only downfall in having them as playable factions is that WE are human. How could we not play as humans, it is the only interface we have ever known. It's not that THEY are aliens, giraffes, or the wind, it's that WE have never known what it is to be such.
LdZpln

OldWarrior_42 posted 09-19-99 09:51 PM ET
What a very well reasoned ,thought out and written post. I am impressed and inclined to agree too.
ForcePacifist posted 09-20-99 07:31 AM ET
actually lead zeppelin(?), there are plenty of species we are havin problems with. most of them considerably smaller then us. many of them with only a single sell or strand of dna per individual (as u know),
its just that even if the human body shape is a reccuring pattern (like fur-to keep warm) and is synonimouse with what we know as human behaviour- its just i dont think you need to go out on a limb with aliens -when there is plenty of variety
'AMONGST US'
Bubbe posted 09-20-99 01:00 PM ET
FP
I wouldnt like the aliens to be humans with green skin(how pathetic).
I think THEY are god as is.
Bubbe posted 09-20-99 01:02 PM ET
Also a faction of viruses would have nonotec from start realy unfair.
LdZpln posted 09-20-99 03:01 PM ET
FP: Yes, there is plenty of variety amongst us.
Another way I look at it is in the larger scheme of the alpha universe. By this I mean, many people are complaining that this is just another civ clone. Civ being a game about HUMAN evolution in societies, about expanding HUMAN societies. Well what are ways we could change that a little bit?
There are many to be sure, but one way might be to introduce a completely different species. One that would evolve differently and have very different characteristics from us. That is an ambitious project, and the biggest journey begins with a single step. The first step, in my opinion has begun in SMACX.
It's too ambitious to try and break from the proven Civ formula right away. It's around and popular because it works well. The best way is to make adjustments and alterations in steps, observe the results, and go from there.
Maybe in future SMAC's the aliens will have a different interface and play in a way that seems alien to us. Who know's maybe it'll be different enough for people to complain that it's not enough like civ.
LdZpln
ForcePacifist posted 09-21-99 07:23 AM ET
k-how bout this, a faction of robots, ay, ay, initially created by hamans as self manufacturing industrial development mechanisms, with self adaptive AI, enough like us to play our game so to speak- but with their self emergent synth-synthetic intelligence they'd be completely different, 'alien'. maybe the 'gon-rong' element would come from the fact that maybe just setting up and building themeselves ends up tackin pretty much all of their time and emergent character before they can even start cattering for whoever sent them out in the first place. thats just an idea id like to express, but if the lumpy heads have to be there, than so be it LdZpln- so be it.
i mean, ive nothing AGAINST aliens in themeselves, im sure many of them are damn fine individuals, once you get to know them- im not prejudice or anything- i- i just feel they should stay in eye-candy real-time galactic empiery sort of games, thats all .
mcostant posted 09-21-99 09:01 AM ET
I like the idea of ForcePacifist about a Robot faction (less human than Cyborg).
I'm not sure about all the excitement for alien faction in Alien Crossfire.
AFAIK all the specification explain that they don't have different weapons, tech tree, path to victory (just will use the Beacon instead of Trascende).
Sorry LdZpln, I don't think that SMACX will be any step into a new, complete different games. The SMAC engine surely can't be changed enough, in a few months, to implement any reasonable difference.
I suggested in a old thread to implement a human control to planet faction (mindworms, fungus grow, isles of deep and the like).
To reduce difference with standard faction (just to help the Firaxis' programmers ) you should change Bases with Nests, cut or include into Nest's start features any applicable actual human base features.
As a victory condition, you should decide between:
a) kill/subdue all human factions (like conquer all),
b) embrace them (like trascende),
c) grow fungus all over the Planet (like corner economy market)
OTOH, the human factions gain the victory condition Kill the Whole Planet.
You can have bio unit, instead of mechanical one, as a kind of Former called Fungus sower, a kind of Supply unit called Fungus crawler and so on.
You should grow mutated forms of life (instead of assemble unit into Workshop), using the Mutation probability (instead of Research). I can continue, but this post is long enough and you surely have got the idea.
Surely you must balance very well this faction, because it can become really powerful guided by a human player instead of by (always too weak) AI. Think about a multiplayer game as Chiron!
I really think that Firaxis should have put a quite different taste into the game if only they had spent a little more time at design table. They build a game that I like, but they also miss something to make it really great, and I'm pessimistic about any improvement they will throw into SMACX.
LdZpln posted 09-22-99 02:55 PM ET
mcostant, I wasn't trying to suggest that SMAC-X would be an entirely new game with a new game engine at all. I was saying that the aliens offer firaxis a few options when designing "future SMAC's". Your idea about controlling Chiron's native life is interesting, and only possible on Chiron since they are 'networked'.
FP: The robots would be interesting too. What kind of SE choices should they have?
Where they are robots and not cyborgs, maybe communication with Chiron's native life would be non-existant. This leads to some unique consequences...
a) would not be able to control/attack mind worms
b) mind worm attacks would have no effect on them
c) Transcendant victory is not an option.
LdZpln

Darkstar posted 09-22-99 03:02 PM ET
mcostant, I REALLY like your Chiron Faction idea. Too Cool! To bad you weren't on the development team!
-Darkstar
ForcePacifist posted 09-23-99 09:13 AM ET
come to think of it- the Chiron 'player' and the Robot faction could be said to be diametrically opposed (or maybe just indiferent) to each other, robos would have good industry and efficiency, growth would be equal to industry, drone riots would be their equivelent of virus programs - artifacts(software wise) or unstable operating systems...
LdZpln posted 09-25-99 09:56 AM ET
Both the Chiron faction and the Robot faction sound really cool, but would you be able to play them together, given the above conditions?
ie: Chiron would have no effect on the robots, except affecting their base square production and their movement rates. The robots would be able to destroy elements of Chiron, but Chiron would have to be boosted to be able to compete with the robots, but then would be too strong for the other factions. Balancing the factions would seem very difficult at this point...
LdZpln
NotLikeTea posted 09-25-99 03:59 PM ET
I don't like the idea of a Chiron faction.
If you read the story and interludes, you see that all of Planet, even though networked, is not as intelligent as a Human (before the Voice is built, at least) and is in more of a "dreaming" consiousness than an aware one. Doesn't really lend itself well to a faction.
Besides, I feel that translating the human elements of Planet equivilants (fungus sower, ect) would only remove the alien-ness of Planet. It would become just another faction with different names.
mcostant posted 09-27-99 09:06 AM ET
Darkstar, thanks for your agreement, but I'm sure it's too good I'm NOT into the Firaxis development team
I know very well as difficult it is to convert interesting idea into working code. Not more my cup of tea, now that I'm used at work to do only the former part
NotLikeTea, I respect your opinion (of course!) but I disagree: story and interludes are written to better involve the players into the game, but often are changed, forgotten or misinterpreted when Firaxis needs so. Just look at the Alien Crossfire's new factions: they don't fit well with the original game's background, but who cares? Then I suppose (IMHO) you can freely put a little more coordination into Chiron effort to react at human invasion. Of course translating "the human elements into Planet equivilants" as you said, is a mere necessity to keep very similar the programming code, as I stated into my previus post. In fact you can put different graphics, a different Tech tree (the Mutation tree) and so on, just to put enough difference between alien and human factions without destroying the general playability. Once for all, I think that Random attackers as Barbarians in CIV II and Alien worms in SMAC are no longer needed as "random events", who only purpose is to bother you just to keep your eyes out of the "Regular faction's AI weakness".
I think that alien-ness could be reinforced with a different design approach, not just blooming fungus here and there, growing 10 Locusts of Chiron from nowhere.
LdZpln, In my last post I wasn't really speaking about balancing two faction like Robot and Chiron, just mixing two idea in a single message. Well, about your idea of Robot invulnerable to Mindworm attack, I remember SF novels where native life can attack metal objects (e.g. spaceships, weapons, etc.). Stanislaw Lem wrote about this subject a very good book (original title: "Niezwyciez`ony", I suppose translated in english like "The Invincible").
Anyway, I'm pretty sure Firaxis (with help by vet player as Yin26) can balance factions, because they CAN change most of the features and plus/minus correctives as they like, at least until they don't tweak so much the engine to throw away the baby with the bath
ForcePacifist posted 09-27-99 01:13 PM ET
heres another idea, humans have been on Chiron for some time by the time smacx comes out, what about humans who've been genetically adapted for life on Chiron, maskless, call them the NeoNatives or something. actaully, they may be out-niched by the Gaians or the Ecologicals, but we humans are native to earth and we're not neccesarily environmentaly friendly, any thoughts?
Schoop posted 09-27-99 01:16 PM ET
Somebody made a custom faction with just that idea a while ago. The name of the faction is "The Chosen," and it's buried in the "The Factions" forum somewhere.
LdZpln posted 09-28-99 12:00 AM ET
mcostant, what I meant by Chiron not being able to attack the robots was by psi-combat, since the robots wouldn't really have a "mind" to screw around with. They could still hinder them in other ways though, you're right about that.
LdZpln

BusterMan posted 10-01-99 06:13 PM ET
Ohh my god! They stole the Mariner's (baseball) logo for the Pirates Faction
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Author	Topic: Arrgh Me Matey, Time to walk the plank....
LdZpln	posted 09-15-99 10:32 PM ET The Pirates are coming The Pirates are coming I like the idea of conquering defeated ships, kind of like probe team capturing enemy units, i wonder if it's a probability or automatic. It may make them too powerful otherwise. Just build up a strong fleet outside an enemies base and when they build a ship attack until it's yours, now you're even stronger to do it next time.... LdZpln
jsorense	posted 09-16-99 10:49 AM ET Rats! I was expecting Episode V along with the Pirates. Waaaaaaaa!
jsorense	posted 09-16-99 11:37 AM ET Never mind.
ForcePacifist	posted 09-16-99 12:15 PM ET but the lumpy headed aliens tryin to out human the humans are coming to. this bothers me.
LdZpln	posted 09-19-99 08:24 PM ET ForcePacifist: Why are you bothered by the LumpHeads? Is it so hard to believe that if we can travel to another planet to colonize it, that there are no other species who can or have? That that other species would necessarily have a problem competing for resources with us? If you look at the animal kingdom, you will see many species (factions) that ignore, cooperate or compete for resources. They are forced to do so or risk extinction. Only one species on our planet has a distinct advantage though, humans. We move into hazardous environments all the time to exploit the resources there for us to grow and thrive. What if there were another species who had the means to compete with us for these resources? At this point (...depending on how many times you've been abducted) we have not encountered any species who really presents us a challenge. Does this mean that there are no such species? Of course not. So it is plausible that we could encounter an alien race with features that allow it to compete with us or overwhelm us. These aliens would need resources, just as any species does, and would do what they were capable and willing to do, to secure them. Does this make them human, no certainly not. it just means they don't assess us as being any greater threat then what we've assessed other species in our history. The only downfall in having them as playable factions is that WE are human. How could we not play as humans, it is the only interface we have ever known. It's not that THEY are aliens, giraffes, or the wind, it's that WE have never known what it is to be such. LdZpln
OldWarrior_42	posted 09-19-99 09:51 PM ET What a very well reasoned ,thought out and written post. I am impressed and inclined to agree too.
ForcePacifist	posted 09-20-99 07:31 AM ET actually lead zeppelin(?), there are plenty of species we are havin problems with. most of them considerably smaller then us. many of them with only a single sell or strand of dna per individual (as u know), its just that even if the human body shape is a reccuring pattern (like fur-to keep warm) and is synonimouse with what we know as human behaviour- its just i dont think you need to go out on a limb with aliens -when there is plenty of variety 'AMONGST US'
Bubbe	posted 09-20-99 01:00 PM ET FP I wouldnt like the aliens to be humans with green skin(how pathetic). I think THEY are god as is.
Bubbe	posted 09-20-99 01:02 PM ET Also a faction of viruses would have nonotec from start realy unfair.
LdZpln	posted 09-20-99 03:01 PM ET FP: Yes, there is plenty of variety amongst us. Another way I look at it is in the larger scheme of the alpha universe. By this I mean, many people are complaining that this is just another civ clone. Civ being a game about HUMAN evolution in societies, about expanding HUMAN societies. Well what are ways we could change that a little bit? There are many to be sure, but one way might be to introduce a completely different species. One that would evolve differently and have very different characteristics from us. That is an ambitious project, and the biggest journey begins with a single step. The first step, in my opinion has begun in SMACX. It's too ambitious to try and break from the proven Civ formula right away. It's around and popular because it works well. The best way is to make adjustments and alterations in steps, observe the results, and go from there. Maybe in future SMAC's the aliens will have a different interface and play in a way that seems alien to us. Who know's maybe it'll be different enough for people to complain that it's not enough like civ. LdZpln
ForcePacifist	posted 09-21-99 07:23 AM ET k-how bout this, a faction of robots, ay, ay, initially created by hamans as self manufacturing industrial development mechanisms, with self adaptive AI, enough like us to play our game so to speak- but with their self emergent synth-synthetic intelligence they'd be completely different, 'alien'. maybe the 'gon-rong' element would come from the fact that maybe just setting up and building themeselves ends up tackin pretty much all of their time and emergent character before they can even start cattering for whoever sent them out in the first place. thats just an idea id like to express, but if the lumpy heads have to be there, than so be it LdZpln- so be it. i mean, ive nothing AGAINST aliens in themeselves, im sure many of them are damn fine individuals, once you get to know them- im not prejudice or anything- i- i just feel they should stay in eye-candy real-time galactic empiery sort of games, thats all .
mcostant	posted 09-21-99 09:01 AM ET I like the idea of ForcePacifist about a Robot faction (less human than Cyborg). I'm not sure about all the excitement for alien faction in Alien Crossfire. AFAIK all the specification explain that they don't have different weapons, tech tree, path to victory (just will use the Beacon instead of Trascende). Sorry LdZpln, I don't think that SMACX will be any step into a new, complete different games. The SMAC engine surely can't be changed enough, in a few months, to implement any reasonable difference. I suggested in a old thread to implement a human control to planet faction (mindworms, fungus grow, isles of deep and the like). To reduce difference with standard faction (just to help the Firaxis' programmers ) you should change Bases with Nests, cut or include into Nest's start features any applicable actual human base features. As a victory condition, you should decide between: a) kill/subdue all human factions (like conquer all), b) embrace them (like trascende), c) grow fungus all over the Planet (like corner economy market) OTOH, the human factions gain the victory condition Kill the Whole Planet. You can have bio unit, instead of mechanical one, as a kind of Former called Fungus sower, a kind of Supply unit called Fungus crawler and so on. You should grow mutated forms of life (instead of assemble unit into Workshop), using the Mutation probability (instead of Research). I can continue, but this post is long enough and you surely have got the idea. Surely you must balance very well this faction, because it can become really powerful guided by a human player instead of by (always too weak) AI. Think about a multiplayer game as Chiron! I really think that Firaxis should have put a quite different taste into the game if only they had spent a little more time at design table. They build a game that I like, but they also miss something to make it really great, and I'm pessimistic about any improvement they will throw into SMACX.
LdZpln	posted 09-22-99 02:55 PM ET mcostant, I wasn't trying to suggest that SMAC-X would be an entirely new game with a new game engine at all. I was saying that the aliens offer firaxis a few options when designing "future SMAC's". Your idea about controlling Chiron's native life is interesting, and only possible on Chiron since they are 'networked'. FP: The robots would be interesting too. What kind of SE choices should they have? Where they are robots and not cyborgs, maybe communication with Chiron's native life would be non-existant. This leads to some unique consequences... a) would not be able to control/attack mind worms b) mind worm attacks would have no effect on them c) Transcendant victory is not an option. LdZpln
Darkstar	posted 09-22-99 03:02 PM ET mcostant, I REALLY like your Chiron Faction idea. Too Cool! To bad you weren't on the development team! -Darkstar
ForcePacifist	posted 09-23-99 09:13 AM ET come to think of it- the Chiron 'player' and the Robot faction could be said to be diametrically opposed (or maybe just indiferent) to each other, robos would have good industry and efficiency, growth would be equal to industry, drone riots would be their equivelent of virus programs - artifacts(software wise) or unstable operating systems...
LdZpln	posted 09-25-99 09:56 AM ET Both the Chiron faction and the Robot faction sound really cool, but would you be able to play them together, given the above conditions? ie: Chiron would have no effect on the robots, except affecting their base square production and their movement rates. The robots would be able to destroy elements of Chiron, but Chiron would have to be boosted to be able to compete with the robots, but then would be too strong for the other factions. Balancing the factions would seem very difficult at this point... LdZpln
NotLikeTea	posted 09-25-99 03:59 PM ET I don't like the idea of a Chiron faction. If you read the story and interludes, you see that all of Planet, even though networked, is not as intelligent as a Human (before the Voice is built, at least) and is in more of a "dreaming" consiousness than an aware one. Doesn't really lend itself well to a faction. Besides, I feel that translating the human elements of Planet equivilants (fungus sower, ect) would only remove the alien-ness of Planet. It would become just another faction with different names.
mcostant	posted 09-27-99 09:06 AM ET Darkstar, thanks for your agreement, but I'm sure it's too good I'm NOT into the Firaxis development team I know very well as difficult it is to convert interesting idea into working code. Not more my cup of tea, now that I'm used at work to do only the former part NotLikeTea, I respect your opinion (of course!) but I disagree: story and interludes are written to better involve the players into the game, but often are changed, forgotten or misinterpreted when Firaxis needs so. Just look at the Alien Crossfire's new factions: they don't fit well with the original game's background, but who cares? Then I suppose (IMHO) you can freely put a little more coordination into Chiron effort to react at human invasion. Of course translating "the human elements into Planet equivilants" as you said, is a mere necessity to keep very similar the programming code, as I stated into my previus post. In fact you can put different graphics, a different Tech tree (the Mutation tree) and so on, just to put enough difference between alien and human factions without destroying the general playability. Once for all, I think that Random attackers as Barbarians in CIV II and Alien worms in SMAC are no longer needed as "random events", who only purpose is to bother you just to keep your eyes out of the "Regular faction's AI weakness". I think that alien-ness could be reinforced with a different design approach, not just blooming fungus here and there, growing 10 Locusts of Chiron from nowhere. LdZpln, In my last post I wasn't really speaking about balancing two faction like Robot and Chiron, just mixing two idea in a single message. Well, about your idea of Robot invulnerable to Mindworm attack, I remember SF novels where native life can attack metal objects (e.g. spaceships, weapons, etc.). Stanislaw Lem wrote about this subject a very good book (original title: "Niezwyciez`ony", I suppose translated in english like "The Invincible"). Anyway, I'm pretty sure Firaxis (with help by vet player as Yin26) can balance factions, because they CAN change most of the features and plus/minus correctives as they like, at least until they don't tweak so much the engine to throw away the baby with the bath
ForcePacifist	posted 09-27-99 01:13 PM ET heres another idea, humans have been on Chiron for some time by the time smacx comes out, what about humans who've been genetically adapted for life on Chiron, maskless, call them the NeoNatives or something. actaully, they may be out-niched by the Gaians or the Ecologicals, but we humans are native to earth and we're not neccesarily environmentaly friendly, any thoughts?
Schoop	posted 09-27-99 01:16 PM ET Somebody made a custom faction with just that idea a while ago. The name of the faction is "The Chosen," and it's buried in the "The Factions" forum somewhere.
LdZpln	posted 09-28-99 12:00 AM ET mcostant, what I meant by Chiron not being able to attack the robots was by psi-combat, since the robots wouldn't really have a "mind" to screw around with. They could still hinder them in other ways though, you're right about that. LdZpln
BusterMan	posted 10-01-99 06:13 PM ET Ohh my god! They stole the Mariner's (baseball) logo for the Pirates Faction