posted 09-15-99 01:48 PM ET        

This picks up where Alpha seems to be cutting off the last one, in Darkman's posting...

Darkman posted 09-14-99 02:03 PM ET
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Since I am just starting to play SMAC I thought I would contribute to this discussion as I have played more MOO2 then I would care to think about.
The quick rush strategy is quite easy and enjoyable.

I take huge, max players, organic rich, medium startup, antarens attack, hard or impossible(I usually take hard, but play against better races I made with melting pot).

First take Subterranean, Telepathic, Cybernetic, +10 SPY, and large HW. Low G, -1/2 food, and -10 Ground combat.

Research reinforced hull, Auto factories, hydro farm, research lab, soil E, neural scanner, supercomputer.

After that you can work on getting techs for your first ship. In any order you want Battle pods, class 1 shields, fusion rifle, battle scanner. If you are in a dense cluster or you can get deuterium cells get tritanium too.

Then you can build your first warship. A cruiser with battle pods, reinforced hull, battle scanner, 2 HV, AP, AF, CO, NR lasers and 4 PD, AF, CO lasers. While building this research fusion drive.

This costs a little more than a colony ship but will get you more colonies than a colony ship.

You will notice I didn't say what to be building or doing in the meantime, that's because it depends a lot on what you discover. If you have a bunch of large gaia rich planets near you, take them. If somebody is stealing techs build spies.

Things to try and trade for. Heavy armor, one of Tritanium/deu fuel cells, tac communications. They usually want supercomputer for some of these, give it. The computer cheats so bad you won't notice that it gets extra tech.

So you built your first ship. Now look for a target. If one of the computer players has declared war on you and they are close great. But your ideal target should not have any planet defences. In almost all games one of your neighbours will not have any. Just sit back and watch your cruiser use the NR, AP, and AF abilities shred SB's. Most enemy ships will blow up with one shot from your lasers, but concentrate on the SB first as it could have good missiles. After the SB fires it's first round move up just a little bit. This will stagger the arrival of the missles, important since you auto-repair with your cybernetic ability.

After you build that first ship research spaceport and robo miners. Then neutron blaster and planetary grav generator. When you get the more advanced physics add more HV lasers to your cruiser. If you have the extra production make a battleship, same design concept although I usually add a couple Fx CO neutron blaster. It helps with missles and in capturing ships. Usually when I am almost finished with a race another one will declare war on me breaking the treaties we had.

Possible problems with this plan:
All possible enemies have missile base or fighter garrison.
Solution:
You need more ships. To be really sure build a cruiser with x2 missles and hit the planet. Build a ship with only PD and regular fire CO beams (Anti-missile rockets if you have them) to shoot down stuff.

Other things of note. You should try and make trade and research deals with everybody. If your best target is dealing with you, force a war. Ask for concessions, systems, techs, whatever. Eventually they will turn on you and it's better if you have all of their planets when that time comes

This should provide a win by 3524-3525 using only lasers. Although I usually build a phaser ship near the end which doesn't see combat.

I am sure I left things out that everybody will call me on.

Darkstar posted 09-14-99 02:38 PM ET
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SUPERCOMPUTER?
In a medium sized galaxy and playing Aggressor from the start, I won't ever SEE Autorepair (unless I get that leader with it), or Supercomputer!

If I sit back and follow tech to industry booster (Robo-Miners and what not) and THEN go to war, then, yeah... but...

Using Telepathic, you only need a hull in orbit to take a world. Depending on neighbors and seeding, this can be a LOT of plucking of colonies, making Engine speed and Range top priorities. And using OUTPOST ships to extend your reach early helps tremendously (remember, outpost can go places not useful to colonizing, and you can always send colony ships later). It's possible to TAKE a home world early, as many times enemy ships are away exploring and no missile bases are yet built.

Waiting reduces your chances of early power grabs. I'd say the only problem with such things are that you are a Hollow empire... no filler until LATER, when you can start filling in the hulls with significant weapons.

If you are making a hull, don't bother with battle pods. They raise initial cost. You can refit the hull later with them, when you turn it from a heart taker (Cheap as possible capital hull), to a butt kicker (a true warship).

-Darkstar

Darkman posted 09-14-99 05:40 PM ET
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First I didn't say to research auto repair. I said to take Cybernetic so you get automatic autorepair.
Second, while it's true that a hull will take a planet I have found that a computer player can build a SB on even a tiny ultra poor planet REAL fast you need something to take a SB and the computers fleet.

As for supercomputer, I agree that in a medium galaxy going aggressive you wouldn't go for it, but my example was for a huge galaxy. I also agree that my strategy is a little slow to get going, but the little extra time pays off if somebody develops class 5 shields or neutronium armor while you are attacking them.

I had read quite a few posts that didn't think much about a rush strategy and about people not attacking until they have gauss, or 8 SC's on a doom star. All the while nobody talked about the laser which you can conquer the galaxy with.

SMACTrek posted 09-14-99 08:00 PM ET
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So what's the average length of time to get something cruiser-sized out to rush with?
Koshko posted 09-14-99 11:40 PM ET
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Just wondering. Does anyone else use the MOO Editors? I do in the very beginning. I like to modify the planets a bit. I create planets on solar systems w/o them. I throw a few more specials. I also like making beginning paridy by making all inhabited solar systems roughly the same taking into account the faction's bonuses.
Koshko posted 09-14-99 11:47 PM ET
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Also has anyone else used a combo of Creative and Fuedalism? I did the last time I played. You get all the Techs but at half-speed and quicker shipbuilding. Also by taking this, it allows me to take Omniscent and either a Large and Rich Home World or Lucky depending on setups. If I want both, I can just take -10 Espianoge.
Darkstar posted 09-15-99 03:44 AM ET
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Sorry Darkman. I missed the huge galaxy at start of your conditions, and misinterpreted the medium as galaxy size.
On a HUGE map, even being aggressive, yeah, the distance factor keeps you from being able to rush them with captial hulls, unless they are seeded close to you, or there are lots of convient wormholes available. (I dislike wormholes. I think they are only there to as an aid to the HUMAN player... I haven't seen the computer take advantage of them except by accident (the allied with the intervening factions, er, races and just happened to settle a star that has a wormhole back to their empire).

Personally, I don't think Cybernetic is worth the cost, but my prefered strategies aren't optimized for it, so that's no surprise.

-Darkstar

Darkman posted 09-15-99 12:26 PM ET
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SMACTrek:
I usually get the first cruiser out between the years 12-14 depending on how lucky I got with my starting position and leaders, etc.
Sigh, now I am going to have to start another game. I think I will try that creative feudalism mentioned. I haven't played either of those for a long time.

On another note has anybody noticed a difference in the computer players and random events between computers? For example on my computer I almost never get tech when I take a planet, a friend of mine almost always does. However, I can often steal tech, he seldom can.

* * * * *

posted 09-15-99 01:50 PM ET            

Anyways, I had wanted to respond to Darkman's question...

Darkman,

It's probably more of playstyles. After all, the Rnd() function is going to use the same distribution of semi-random points for both machines, only the seed number would be different.

For gaining tech by conquest, well developed (lots of infrastructure) or high population worlds = better chance at gaining new tech.

For STEALING tech, that's a matter of dedicated spys and what tech toys you take to boost your spying rate.

So I would suggest you look at how your friend tends to play, and look at how you tend to play. It sounds like you build up and then get out there, giving the computer players a chance to build up... thus you tend to get the available techs through conquest.

Your friend may be using spies earlier and more often than you, and thus succeeds more often. Especially if he is taking all spy related techs over other tech choices.

posted 09-15-99 06:40 PM ET            

I might as well add my favourite strategy here...

With the following race you can _never_ lose, whatever difficulty you play (except impossible perhaps)

Points:
-10 (You start with 10 free points)
-5 Low G
-3 Spying -10
-2 Ground Combat -10
+6 SubTerranian
+6 Unification
+8 Creative
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0 Extra points

You have to do extremely bad to not win with this configuration. You can play passively through the entire game, until you have 50 doom stars, place one doom star at each of the opponents systems.. and WHA-BOOM. take all in 1-5 turns.

Comments regarding this race:
Subterranian gives extra population, which means increased production/research, but also means that you need to produce more food. The Unifications makes you produce 50% more food, and that is more food that extra population due to Subterranian. The Unification also negates ALL effects with Low G, except the -10 combat penalty. With Low G, you get -50% industry/food/research on High-G planets, and -25% on Normal G. With Unification you get +50% industry/food. Also, with unification you get +15 agent bonus (defensive spy). This negates the -10 spying penalty. But since you are Creative, you will discover all spy-enhancing things there are. The -10 combat rating is negated with sub-terranian, as you get +10% defense bonus. Also, you are creative, so you research a lot of stuff that enhances this. Later in the game, you get Galactic Unification. +100% industry/food is not bad. Also, since you are creative, you get the Planetary Gravity Generator.

Anyone that cannot complete a Huge, Mineral Rich, Hard game with 8 players after trying 3 times, please let me know.

A variant:
-10 Starting points
-5 Low G
-3 Spying -10
+8 Creative
+7 Democracy
+3 Charismatic
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0 Extra points

Comments regarding this race:
This race has more problems with Low-G than the first, but since it has +25% income/research, you can buy/research faster. Also, Diplomacy is easier due to the Charismatic bonus. Also, the Charismatic choice makes more leaders join you, and this usually means you get a bonus tech like Federation (Advanced Democracy), Terraforming, Autolabs, etc... from a leader that wants to join you. Also, since you have that +25% income, you can afford them... ALSO, they cost half to hire due to the bonus from Charismatic. Low-G is negated by research pretty fast.

Very powerful race. You should easily win any difficulty with this race.

I have lately been experimenting with some fun combis... I made a race that had 1 goal. Get Antarean technology FAST.

Points:
-10 Starting points
-2 Ship Defense -20
-2 Ship Offense -20
-3 Spying -10
-1 Poor Homeworld (argh, needed 1 extra -)
+8 Creative
+4 Ground Combat +20
+6 High G
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0 Extra points

Comments:
Creative to negate all the negative effects of the ships and poor homeworld and Spying.
Ground Combat +20 is pretty much, when you add on all you research with Creative. High G is extreme .. +10 combat, AND +1 Hit Point. This results in getting +60 Ground Combat with 3 Hit Points very fast! Send out some transports to planets without defense. 4 (!) Marines can take out up to 20 other marines. I once had to defend myself with 4 marines vs. 32 marines... 2 of the opponents' marines survived (ARgh) I know this sounds like a very strange race. but _believe me_ .. It is really fun to attack a planet, and drop 4 marines, and take out 5 tanks and 20 marines... Also, as noticed above, this race is made to get antaran technology. How? Equip your ships with semi-powerful weapons, (or tractor beams) and try to immobilise the antarans. Then Board them. Use Shuttles and board them, add on troop pods to your ships. Immobilize and board everything .. If you also get a good leader on your ships with bonus for marines, you got yourself a winner. I loved to have neutronium bombs, particle beam etc when the opponents were still attacking me with neutron beams.

This race is harder to play with, but is VERY fun.

The Challenge:
Points:
-10 Starting points
-6 Repulsive
-4 Uncreative
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-20 Extra points (+300% score!)

Play impossible, Huge, 8 players. Have fun!

posted 09-16-99 03:58 AM ET            

I used to always take Repulsive to balance Creative. I mean, all I am going to do is stomp on the opponent races, so what do I need beyond "We War on You"? Some games, you just want to beat the snot out of them, but not bother with spying... Creative buys that for you. All spies stay home to protect state secrets! Much better than having to split them. But not as much fun...

posted 09-16-99 12:30 PM ET            

I do link the creative and high g setup, I used something similar to that to attack antares and capture all their ships except the fortress.

Koshko: With the creative feudalism, I wouldn't take +2 research. Since you get -50% research from feudalism you are throwing away one of those + research points. You spend +6 to get one. It's better to get extra production and get most of your research from buildings.

posted 09-24-99 10:37 AM ET            

You have to have 2/3rds of ALL the votes. Some of the other races probably abstained.

It's too "#%"�#&% easy to win that game by voting. I usually spend most of my time abstaining.... But the funny part is when you have 90 votes of 120, and you get elected as supreme leader... And refuse. They are so st00pid to go to a fullscale attack on you when you are 3 times as powerful as all of them together .. <g>

posted 09-24-99 03:26 PM ET            

I think the Silicoids commonly get bonuses at higher play levels, and maybe the Sakkras too. They're the two races that seem to work best for the AI. The Silicoids always seem to get a lot more population growth than you'd think, and if they can seize more than about 1/3 of the galaxy, you've got a problem.

It also seems that the AIs share technology, or maybe they have spying bonuses that work against each other too. If there's a Creative race in the game, you might as well share all your low-level stuff, because everyone's going to get everything anyway.

TNSe, how early do you get elected leader (what tech levels)? I usually find an Antaran win is faster, probably since I don't tend to play a conquest game. I think that's because I've been burned a couple of times when getting into a war with my opponent in the leadership race. You take enough planets away, you might knock him down to #3 - and what if the new #2 is more popular than you? (That killed me in MOO 1 a lot.)

And yes, the MOO 2 AIs do seem to declare war at idiotic moments. Not to mention the so-called ally who suddenly demands asystem from you. Makes you realize how much SMAC got right.

posted 09-24-99 07:53 PM ET            

How fast I get elected as leader depends a lot on the race I play... Any Charismatic race often gains more allies (duh) than the others. This gives extra votes.

But the biggie is SubTerranian. Since the #of votes Depends on the # of citizens (just as Alpha Centauri) you get a nice bonus with the +2, +4, +6, +8, +10 the subterranian gives you on different planet sizes.

So to win *fast* using the supreme leader, the best race would most likely be:
-6 SubTerranian
-8 Creative
-3 Charismatic
+5 Low-G
+2 Ground Combat -10
+10 Starting
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0

I once played a Subterranian Tolerant Race. Quite fun, a lot of population, almost all planets took 10-40 population....

posted 09-24-99 07:58 PM ET            

Just wanted to tell about a nice fight I had.

+10 Start points
-6 High-G
-4 Ground Combat +20
-8 Creative
-1 Large Homeworld
+3 Research -1
+6 Repulsive
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0

I invaded all that could fly or had population. My 3 Hit Points marines +150 took out all in sight ) The Antares didn't stand a chance.

Once, 1 of my marines (1 <- !!) took out 32 attacking marines... I loved to watch that ... made me feel all warm and cozy inside