posted 08-06-99 03:51 PM ET            

Why don't you go respond to the posts that have been written already? You can do it substantively, via flames or ad hominem attacks. Your choice.

Anyway, w.r.t this thread, how can a company that lets it's flagship product languish, still possessing a large number of CORRECTABLE bugs, while at the same time dissing some of its most hardcore fans who would like to help identify and fix them be referred to as one of the greatest game companies in the world?

I'll tell ya how. Because it was a die-hard SMACophant (tm) talking who has enjoyed the attention and interaction that the others here would like to see happen on a more regular basis than once every three or four months.

To me, how a company treats its customers AFTER the product is release and THEY HAVE OUR MONEY is quite telling. I'd give FurXs no more than 2 on a scale of ten for this.

Flame on!

posted 08-06-99 04:06 PM ET         

I don't know you, do I? I hope not.

You haven't been seen round here so much. You're something of a geek, I hear.

How's your tongue - nice and brown.

How's the taste - what you always wanted.

I see through.

Where were you when the posts started falling off round here. Kissing ass at Apolyton I bet. Or sucking dick at the Firaxis office. Yeah. I've seen the picture of the coffee machine too.

So, one of your buddies has pulled your chain and said look, gimp, get over to alpha.owo and stir it up. Make it look like someone even posts there.

Well, you've done it now. So go back to licking Jeff's backside and give up playing the hardboy act.

posted 08-06-99 04:15 PM ET            

"Civ2 had HOW many correctable bugs? How many patches?"

The key word above is "had".

Patch v4.0 was limited in scope. Severely limited in the opinion of some. Also, lackluster in execution: missile bug still with us, loading times are excessive.

Combine this with the "thunderous silence" from FurXs and the "bugs build community" article and you get a bunch a SMACers who are skeptical that a substantive patch will ever be offered in a timely manner.

Yep, the keyword is "had" -- past tense.

SMAC, just to be annoying pedantic, **HAS** correctable bugs. Present tense.

See the distinction?

And one more thing, if I have to read another of these I've-been-posting-here-so-long-this-makes-me-some-kind-of-SMAC-god posts, I'll gag!

But feel free to post them. The reason I gag is that it's hard to laugh and puke at the same time.

posted 08-06-99 04:36 PM ET            

Since you and the other venerated Vets love this game so much how could you allow the owo forums fall to such a state?

Why weren't you here day and night defending SMAC educating the newbies as to how great a game it is, and how minor and unannoying the bugs are.

You left.

The majority of the older "newbies" left.

The people here don't know who you are a Vet {sic}, who loves this game (and got his name into the storyline) to the extent that he can't look at the game and the company that is responsible for it rationally.

I still have a blast whenever I get the time to sit and play SMAC. I will not deny that. I am very frustrated that it is not better than it is. I am frustrated that the 4 patches that have been produced have not removed more bugs from the game. A bug or a design flaw effects every game I play and I still enjoy it.

Firaxis has dedicated too few resources to the completion and continuation of this game. They have dedicated too few resources to coommunicating with some of its most rabid fan base.

Why do they go over to Sid.Games to do interviews yet fail to even put out mild statements on this the official forums? The reason that some many people end up leaving these forums is that there is no show of support from Firaxis here. They have shown no support for illiciting a "patch 5.0 list from us" or a must fix bugs list for SMACAX.

Instead of defending Firaxis from people who are fed up with the way they perceive Firaxis treats them, why don't you become an agent of change? When Firaxians visit the other sites encourage them to come here and communicate with the denizens here. Use your status as an admired forum member with Firaxis to talk with them and prompt them to work with us to make a better SMAC.

That is all any of us want. A Better SMAC.

I would love for you to say someday, SMAC "had HOW many correctable bugs? How many patches?". We want it to be fixed. So do you.

Your waisting your energy blasting newbies is not going to help.

posted 08-06-99 09:15 PM ET            

Read some of the posts by Analyst and the other TIs. Their criticizms of JKM and Firaxis are a bit more objective, and well founded, in my opinion.

posted 08-06-99 11:08 PM ET            

Actually, I have to plead guilty to carrying a flamethrower. Not recently, but immediately following release of the game when Yin and I were saying the exact things that dozens of people are now saying after 4 patches(ask Analyst, I'm sure he remembers some of my choice comments). In fact, I coined the term SMACophant in honor of Imran and another forum member who I haven't seen around for a long time. The funny thing about a SMACophant is that they will never discuss specifics. Instead they adopt some symbolic my dog is bigger than your dog, I've been around here longer than you, or I'm a tech guy and you're not attitude as the means to get their point across. The difference between Imran and me is that Analyst reminded me that I'm a grown man and that adults don't need to wallow in filth in order to find nuggets of gold.

Just ignore him and let him live in his dream world and he will be gone sooner than you can say JKM is a PR genious.

uncleroggy out

posted 08-07-99 01:02 AM ET            

I couldn't agree with you more.

Yin,

Ugh... That's now the second thing I disagree with you on. Are you thinking of renouncing our pact brotherhood?

posted 08-07-99 02:41 AM ET            

I would advise you to calm down and try counter-arguments. To some of the newer ones here, WE are the vets and Transcendi Gods. You are just spitting in the wind, and liable to have people notifying the management that you are being personally insulting. That will get you banned.

What is your problem? We are following Jeff's advice. We are unhappy with Firaxis and their support of their products and customer base. Jeff's advice is to return the program and not give the company your money. And tell your friends. Word of mouth beats the heck out of other marketting.

So, are we idiots for doing as JM advices us? Or is JM the idiot for giving us this advice.

You and I have crossed intentions before. But we have also been in agreement. I know you to be capable of more than this raving spittle and swearing issuing from you. But most don't.

Old Warrior, I haven't always kept it on the nice high intellectual debate sort of level. But I believe that whenever I have personally insulted someone, I have apologized for it. No point in being petty. Makes both of us small and immature.

posted 08-07-99 04:36 AM ET            

And for all of you who are now upset with him, it should have been abundantly clear from his intial post that this thread is about satire and a parody of the posts of the IQ-disadvantaged members of the anti-Firaxis faction.

posted 08-07-99 04:05 PM ET            

You are so wrapped up in flaming the utter Hell out of anyone that agrees with Firaxis, you can't even see obvious attempts at sarcasm. A bad sign to you all.

posted 08-07-99 06:25 PM ET            

Personally I can't see much resemblance between your posts and those of the "whiners". Isn't that a prerequsite for satire or mockery?

Admit it Imran. You don't have what it takes to stand up to logical arguments. You post a few lame-ass "mockery" posts and now you're gonna retire from the field claiming victory.

You're a wimp. Wimp on!

posted 08-07-99 07:52 PM ET            

I'm not going to pile on in pointing out that few, if any have flamed JKM for his remarks. OW42 and others have already pointed out the obvious. If you can't see these for the honest disagreements they are, then I can only suggest a remedial english course to assist you.

You on the other hand have only engaged in two things. You are a master of inflammatory rhetoric and a foul mouth. You further compound your ignorance by trying to hide behind an excuse of satire and sarcasm. You don't even know what sarcasm and satire are when all you can do is call people f ing morons and the like. Like old warrior says, grow up, clean up your mouth and take us to task with facts.

If you can't do this, well I never missed you to start with as you have never brought anything remotely constructive to this forum other than a misguided idolatry.

Go ahead, flame away. I won't respond as every word that you type will further weaken what little respect you might still have.

posted 08-07-99 08:28 PM ET            

"Firaxis didn't send me a thank you note for my suggestion to include pine forests in Civ3. What a bunch of ingrates!"

or

"Sure the game runs fine. But sometimes the number of nutrients diplayed on the summary list is different from that displayed on the city page. This is a major bug! How could Firaxis possibly have missed this! What a bunch of hack programmers!"

or how about this

"JKM hurt my feelings! Just because I've been insulting Firaxis everyday now for three months, he thinks he has the right to politely ask whether I might, just possibly, find flaming more fun than actual productive activity. What a bastard. How dare he try to suppress my right to free speech by writing an editorial! I say let's dump all Firaxis products in Boston Harbor!"

Sniveling witless drivel, all of it. And when anyone tries to call you on it you try to look innocent and whine "What are you picking on me for? I'm only trying to help." Who exactly are you trying to help by ruthlessly flaming anyone who disagrees with you? Thank you, but I can do without any more of this type of help. If you have any more "logic" like this I suggest you try using it on your dog. He might be impressed.

But let's get to the argument that really destroys all your hypocritical posturing shall we? I've seen some of you guys calling for a boycott of Firaxis products. Fine, this forum is a Firaxis product, so boycott it.

But you won't, will you? You DO find flaming
Firaxis more fun than doing playing SMAC (or any other game for that matter). JKM is right.

I make no value judgements about that. If you enjoy it, that's fine with me. There are far worse ways to spend your time. But enough is enough. Smac has some flaws, but it is basically a very good game, possibly the best game of the year. If you want to persist in unfairly flaming it, and everyone who likes it, then you can't complain if other people start making fun of your dimwitted obsession. Since I sometimes enjoy flaming people too, I don't see any reason why I, for instance, shouldn't flame you. Turnabout is indeed fair play.

posted 08-07-99 10:03 PM ET            

I haven't flamed anyone on this forum since March. Here's the challenge. Quote me in these forums by thread and post(since March) where I have flamed anyone and I'll send a heartfelt apology to anyone you want.

Otherwise, the next words out of your mouths is an apology to me. At least I don't run around calling people f ing idiots like you two do and then say it was all a joke to cover my tracks.

Like I said, either bring your facts or watch your credibility meters go to zero.

posted 08-08-99 07:12 AM ET            

(addressed to JKM from undercloggy) "Perhaps your time whining about the demands of those that pay good money for your product would be better served addressing obvious design flaws(see Analyst's list). Yes, you can never please eveyone all of the time, but 4 patches is an insult to the intelligence of your customers. In short, look into the mirror and you will see the solution to your problem.

Also, I will be so far reaching to say that it is a personal insult to all of us who have taken the time to send in thousands of improvements and game ideas. Clearly, you are a hypocrite as you only want to hear how great your game is rather than how it could be better or work properly.

Finally, if you are this thin skinned, I suggest a new line of work. The job of QA is to put out a quality product and to handle the customer problems and complaints that arise. Obviously, you find these responsibilities irritating."

posted 08-08-99 01:37 PM ET            

On the JKM article, I'm finally going to give my straight opinion (Ooh, goodie!! Yeah, right). It got me to thinking about money and time. Without knowing Firaxis' war plans, I can only say that I hope the "weather" improves between releases. I'm not prepared to go as far as a boycott, but my purchases will be nonexclusive for the time being. I guess that's how things work...

Regarding the forums... I came here because of SMAC. I stayed here (and elsewhere) because of the people. While it's true that we all have SMAC in common, alot of us have more in common.

posted 08-08-99 02:03 PM ET            

SMAC is actually one of the most bug-free games I have ever played, except from some gameplay-bugs that has been fixed by patches. So I can't complain. When it comes to all of the people who complains about: SMAC is unstable, long loading times, SMAC locks up and so on, the problem is their computers, not SMAC. I don't think people really understand how difficult it is to make a game that runs perfectly on billions of computer setups. The solution to most of these bugs is to either upgrade your PC, fix it or buy a new one (that actually works properly!).

posted 08-08-99 03:08 PM ET            

My system is well within the requirements, but I get crashes every blue moon. Not the best, but decent enough for me. For that matter, windows is no OS to trust your holies with. Not without timely backups.

posted 08-08-99 04:52 PM ET            

People do need to start realizing how great SMAC is... Like many people, I am also not planning on buying SMACX. I'm a little worried about it, actually. All the new factions might unbalance the game--I really see no need for them. Just like if there was an expansion pack for the old Civ, I wouldn't have bought it--you can't improve on perfection by adding more of it. Simplicity is worth something, too. If a game is just fine the way it is, adding more factions, buildings, special abilities, will NOT necessarily make it better and will probably make it worse. In my opinion, CivII was worse than the original for this reason. Star Control I was better than II (as far as melee goes), and MOOI was better in some ways than MOOII.

posted 08-08-99 09:34 PM ET            

Ok. We can lump almost all of you pro-SMACers in one bunch. Lieing People of No Honor. SMAC has bugs, and you experience them every time you play. BR has stated in chats that he and his team did pretty poor in putting it together. They'd like to have done better, and payed more attention to the design flaws (those are called BUGS, by the way... design bugs). So pucker up, and kiss it.

Your anger isn't at us not liking SMAC, or whining about its "problems". It's that it makes you feel like a moron. And THAT is why you flame. You don't like people attacking your ego and intellect. And that's what these little personal flaming rants of yours are about.

Imran, you were not trying to spoof things. We've ample evidence of your satires and such, and if you have gotten that bad, you had better go back to rememdial training and get of the drugs.

This forum is not a Firaxis product. If it was, there are many that think it wouldn't run. Maybe it would, maybe it wouldn't. Unless Firaxis makes a Web Based Forum service, we won't know, but I believe that it would work well, and be 99% bug free. They have a lot of brains and intellect to focus on the problem, and it's a heck of a lot easier than trying to write SMAC, Civ, or any other World Conquest game that trys to model Diplomacy and other side line behavior.

I've expressed my amazement, wonder, disappointment, and disgust with various portions of SMAC. Everyone has their own opinions about what's neat, and what sucks. But I started expressing my opinion about a company's respect, or lack of, for their customer base. If you guys feel it's ok to piss on the customers, and to add your own, fine. But that is not an attitude that a company can take and survive for long, unless they are the ONLY one in the business. Customers, no matter how stupid, wise up and go elsewhere.

I've seen enough stupidity and name calling. And it doesn't further the cause of Quality Products, or Enjoyable Games. It only validates Firaxis's opinion that they can use and abuse their public.

One day, Imran, Dowdc, White_Cat, Khan Sign, and Eplekake are going to get tired of getting reamed up the ass by that attitude and poor [fill in the blank]. But until then, they are going to defend their Pimp Daddy. They have no choice. Otherwise, they have to admit they are just their groupie bitches, looking for a little attention. And that involves admitting they are wrong. We know that can't happen, as their ego would pop.

So, to quote Beavis (who is on their general Intellectual and Emotional level) "thank you, drive through".

posted 08-09-99 01:48 AM ET            

But as I said before. It feels good to let out any aggravation and irritation, from time to time.

If you can play SMAC PBEM and not need to reboot so that you can send your turns in a timely manner, Imran, then I am jealous. Otherwise, nope. [Warning: Cheap shot: You can keep calling them "undocumented features", and we will call them "bugs".]

I have seen several satire pieces of yours. Especially in the Reagen debates (if I am recalling your posts properly).

And I am NOT anti-SMAC. It's pretty well replaced Civ2 on my hard drive. There are things I like about it, and things I don't. As I have amply stated on these forums. But I am at the moment, Anti-Firaxian. Not Anti SM, or BR. Just Anti-Firaxis. Go figure.

Old Warrior, I hope you don't think I kicked out your Soap Box. And thanks for trying. But this has reached the point that neither side is listening, and both are just repeating themselves. I'm just looking for the humorous replies I was told are here, and the final good-byes.

posted 08-09-99 01:41 PM ET            

Look! You seem to have fallen down to the level of the rest of the "*STUPID*" twats left in here. I am not new to this forum but its state has degenerated significantly! Maybe you should consider giving up your "Beloved" Firaxis and join ACOL? You maybe a twat but you can be redeemed!

posted 08-09-99 03:09 PM ET            

Sorry it took me so long to post back. I couldn't get the forums to come up. I guess Firaxis isn't forwarding something and I had to wait for someone to help me.

Re: Flaming

If you site that post as flaming, then I suppose the next time I say "good morning" would also be a flame? Come on. What you listed is a strong disagreement and there isn't anything other than a contrast between my opinion's and JKM's. Otherwise, JKM's entire article was a flame. BTW, I didn't think his article to be a flame, just his thought and opinions.

In short, I said,

1) JKM should fix his product instead of rationalizing Psych 101.

2) 4 patches with numerous problems remaining is nothing other than poor workmanship.

3) JKM should stop blaming everything under the sun for his problems and take responsibility.

4) If JKM can't handle his responsibilities because he finds them so distasteful, he should find a new line of work.

Now if you choose to equate this with calling everyone F ing morons then there is absolutely no way you can see things objectively.

OOPS, I guess you call that a flame as well?

In any event, Good morning Khan Singh, your credibility meter just hit zero. (no flames intended of course)

posted 08-09-99 08:56 PM ET            

Uncle: Haven't flamed anyone since march? What about my RD builder theories?

Seriously people, I enjoy a good flame fest now and then, but the b*tching is starting to get out of hand here. I've been severely dishearted by JKMs article, like most of us, but that doesn't mean we should abandon SMAC entirely. Once SMAX is released, then we can pass final judgement. Hopefully Firaxis will have its act together, and Imran will find something better to do with his freetime besides dissing newbies.

posted 08-09-99 09:36 PM ET            

Another satirical statement perhaps? Just because someone finds bugs and posts them doesn't make them "anti-SMAC".

If anything, Darkstar could be labelled as "anti-Firaxis". And even then, he hasn't always been this way. For that matter neither have I.

As to never having experienced a bug in SMAC, I trust then that you have NEVER played on Transcend or Thinker, or that you ALWAYS use the queue to build things.

There are two EASILY verifiable bugs contained therein:

1) maintenance costs mistakenly reduced on Thinker and Transcend (can't remember the percentage, but it's clear that FurXs intended the discounts to occur on the easier levels and the not the harder)

2) extra energy credits added to your account for every base that switches to Accumulate Energy instead of starting something new with the Build Queue

Clearly, you've never played-by-e-mail before either because there are some REALLY nasty bugs there:

3) Scenario Editor spontaneously activates at the beginning of a turn

4) Game mistakenly ends when the first player is eliminated from a multi-player PBEM game

5) SMAC always mistakenly offers the wrong place to save games from the PBEM save game (inconsistent with the SP save game and downright annoying, not to mention leading to incorrect transmission of PBEM turns)

Now, Khan Singh, I know that these are all "number-of-nutrients-displayed-on-the-summary list" bugs, but they are bugs none the less and the first two will be encountered by anybody but a beginner.

See, Imran, the above statement was SARCASTIC and MOCKING of Khan Singh.

Actually, to me the above bugs are quite serious and major. I used sarcasm to contrast the piddling insignificant type of problems that Khan Singh and others think we are whining about, with the actual problems that SMAC has. See the difference Imran?

No doubt, you'll all say that these are not important (or not bugs?). To each his own.

Just so we can see how really FOOLISH you all can be: please answer as to whether these five problems are serious or not and deserve fixing. Also, please comment on whether you believe it is likely that you and others would experience these bugs. Assume that you play SMAC MP PBEM for the sake of argument.

Also, for extra credit, please indicate which driver/hardware component is most likely to be responsible for causing these problems.

These are five of the worst. There are over a hundred more. Many of which Imran and others have encountered, but they haven't been paying close enough attention.

I'll ask the questions again for the SMACophants, and this time why don't you answer them, instead of following in the footsteps of JKM and answering some question that nobody asked?

Here they are:

- Why are there so many flaws in a flagship product three patches into the life of the product?

- Why is Firaxis so blase about them?

- Does this attitude characterize a company that is the "greatest in the world?"

posted 08-09-99 09:51 PM ET            

That's it! I want to play Santiago! I'm a builder and I'm out of the closet.

Really, you can trust me on this even though I'm a builder

posted 08-10-99 01:44 PM ET         

Yep, the peanut butter and Yang sandwich up the arse of your biggest base with all the best secret projects even when you have scrupulously ensured that no Hive base is within 20 units of any of your bases.

Damn! He gets me every time I allow him to build a PB. My first mission in most games is to eliminate Yang, or at least have the power to attack any of his cities on short notice.

posted 08-10-99 05:06 PM ET            

I'll agree that the Transcend maintenance bug is serious (Transcend level is too easy to beat with a build strategy), but the accumulate bug is simple to avoid. Just don't exploit it.

Are there any other serious SP bugs left? I know the missile range bug is still occasionally showing up, but that's hardly a serious problem since the AI can't use missiles effectively (unless it works for PBs too).

posted 08-10-99 06:04 PM ET            

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in the explanation. Whenever you DO NOT USE the build queue to give the next build order for a base, you will accumulate AN EXTRA TURN of energy when the game switches to Stockpile Energy automatically. You can then change production to something useful and still retain the energy for that turn.

I suppose one could work around this bug, by always using the queue. But that isn't the way I normally play.

Re: the IRM bug. I figured it went without saying that it was still in there, although it seems to have been "fixed" into a less frequently encountered form.

There are plenty of other bugs in there. Maybe even some more serious ones. It's been so long since I looked at the "Easy to Read" list. I just chose these 'cuz they came immediately to mind.

And just so the temperature doesn't drop too low: f*** off!