posted 08-05-99 03:19 PM ET        

I have watched JKM answer questions in the troubleshooting forum for the last half year. He answered several of my (sometimes stupid) questions and has been nothing but gracious in all instances. This is even when he's not the official tech support for the product!

posted 08-05-99 05:18 PM ET            

Yes, I know that sounds strange from a Dark One like me, but I have been positive in the past. I have to presume you have been as well, but I have never seen it here in Games. Was it in Off-Topic? Please remind me... I know some people use these fori for a stress relief.

We'll dog pile JM. In the future, I probably won't, as the Firaxian public attitude that anyone that buys their games and pays their bills are morons and brain dead humans imitatiting dog doo smeared on their shoes.

posted 08-05-99 08:53 PM ET            

I am forced to think that someone has stolen Darkstar's password and is posting in his stead (obviously an infiltrator from ACOL ). Or maybe his wife is stealing his cookie! OK, that was a little over-the-top (no offense to your wife--apologies).

Thinking back on my posts in The Game, I had one negative thread (mcerion going way over the top and doing a personal assassination) and one positive one (Firaxis ownership). I suppose it's a mixed bag just like most other posters.

Of course, as you pointed out, in Off Topic I keep about 90% positive, and I most often post there.

posted 08-05-99 10:11 PM ET            

Two points and a question.

Point1: It's JKM's J-O-B to help people with game problems and improve the product. Why are you trying to turn his job into some great act of philanthropy?

Point2: Maybe JKM should learn from you and measure his words before he shoots off his mouth in public.

Question: Why is it overindulgent to call a man onto the carpet for his actions and words. Where I come from it's call "being responsible".

Before you respond, I suggest you look back at the TI threads, the constructive criticism threads and the contributions to the CIV III list at Apolyton and note who are some of the major contributors of bug help and game ideas. Not only that, but many of us send in scores of bugs/ideas directly to Firaxis.

So please explain why it is that some of the most helpful people are most offended?

uncleroggy out

posted 08-06-99 12:28 AM ET            

Nope. All me. All original. Maybe a little cranky, but then, I really dislike having people flame me for what I think is an obvious insult, and they think is perfectly ok. As I have said elsewhere, I've held the position of Head of QA, and I know a cop out when I see/read one. QA is suppose to be about truth and reality. Its not about making excuses or insulting the customer. Even if their will be the odd, computer illiterate bloke that won't know where the power switch is until you talk him through it on the phone. Its QA's job to make sure that any odd, "silly", or "stupid" thing with the software possible. That's because odds are, if its a successful program, there will be at least 10 users that try it. If not more.

Having someone that is too good at spin control or politicing in QA is always bad. Obviously, I did alright, not being much of a diplomat or politicker.

posted 08-06-99 02:07 AM ET            

If you spend anywhere near 50% of the time on these forums complaining about bugs--then you're so pathetic I shouldn't even be wasting my time writing this.

Firaxis was created by a group of gamers, whose ultimate goal is to create the best games possible for us gamers. How many other companies could say that with a straight face? Sid, man, he's a ****ing legend. Him and BR have created most of the games in the generally accepted top 10 of all time. JKM was just telling the truth--if you're insulted by that, then you deserve it. I read the article and was DISGUSTED--with you! I couldn't believe people were getting so upset at NOTHING. You don't think it's true that the only reason why you're still on these forums is to BITCH? All of you guys enjoy it so much it's sad.

Boycotting Firaxis will just make things worse. Boycott everyone BUT Firaxis. Oh, and MOOII isn't half the game SMAC is. Can't even hold a candle to it.

posted 08-06-99 02:26 AM ET            

#1 -------------------

As to the article by JKM, it boggles my mind that anyone could find anything of significant value therein. I have only read it once, but my recollection is it only made bland assertions that anyone would immediately acknowledge as true.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that it is difficult to get software to perform with so many different PC configurations. Similarly, most people would immediately acknowledge that there can never be a flawless, bug-free product.

What the "whiners" have been on about with regard to SMAC is that Firaxis has been:

- reluctant to admit to flaws in their product. Even some very significant ones

- even more reluctant to fix the flaws that are found and reproduced by hardcore SMACers

These are not "driver" type bugs. We're talking about features that don't work as documented or at all.

An example may prove useful:

Did you know that if you are playing a multi-player SMAC by e-mail that the game mistakenly ends when the first human player is eliminated from the game?

Now how do you think it feels for the hundreds of SMACers who have spent thousands of hours in PBEM games? It sucks.

Thankfully, we have devised an ugly workaround. But what other gems are lurking for us to find?

Now I submit to you, Mr. Reitman, as a professional developer: Does this sound like a flaw that you would leave unfixed in your game?

After not fixing this problem (or even acknowledging it) would you then use your copious spare time to compose some lame article wherein you claim that:

"My final and most radical point is that the online gaming community, which most frequently identifies and evangelizes bugs, have strong interests in games not being 100 percent bug free."

This has got to be one of the most ludicrous and asinine statements ever made by a software professional.

Certainly bugs in games provide "grist for the mill." However, does JKM really believe that I desire bugs to be left in so that I can have something to talk about on the net? Wouldn't it be better for all if significant bugs were fixed? We could play the game, compose scenarios, etc.

Recently, JKM made a call for beta testers for SMAX, their SMAC add-on. I seriously considered applying as I have a ton of experience developing and testing software combined with many hours of playing SMAC.

However, I did not apply. Why? Because I already HAVE acted as a tester in an unofficial capacity. I reasoned that since JKM and Firaxis has virtually ignored most of the input from the experienced SMAC community, why would they consider and act upon it anymore so from an official source. My desire to see SMAC improved has already led to frustration, I didn't need anymore.

Also, as a so-called leader from the online SMAC "rabble," I presumed that I would not be given serious consideration. Perhaps I was wrong.

Anyway, good luck with B5:itf! I'll nose around.

#2 -------------

You know I could care less about the "driver" bug issue. It is a non-issue for me.

What amazes me is that someone can call a problem that causes the retroactive wasting of hundreds of hours of game time a "minor" bug. Anyway, that's beside the point. A QA department should be dedicated to eliminating 100% of the known implementation errors and most of the design errors as well (within reason). SMAC v4.0 still has hundreds of bugs, major and minor.

Heck, v4.0 caused the load times of the game to increase by 400-1000% (depending on machine) as well as the load time of .SAV games too. Someone just botched on that one.

Re: your idea about 3-4 reports of a problem. Good idea. However, I can assure you that Firaxis has no interest in accepting and logging reports from people. Haven't shown it yet, anyway.

How about this idea? How about accepting each bug that can be verified with step-by-step reproduction instructions and an accompanying .SAV file. If I was in QA, (which I actually am at this point in my career) I would kill to get that kind of information about a product. It is short work to identify the cause of an implementation or design error with this kind of information. Will take longer to correct, but that's what developers are paid the big bucks for!

Now, back to Firaxis, do you think they appreciate the efforts that a dozen or so SMACers have put forth in producing this kind of information? Hardly! People like me, Darkstar, cousLee, yin26, Goobmeister, and many others have done that work FOR them and identified dozens and dozens of bugs.

Some are quite laughable: maintenance costs being lowest on the highest difficulty setting!

Speaking as a software professional the attitude of Firaxis towards the most dedicated of its customer base and towards the quality of their (current) flagship product just flabbergasts me. What is Firaxis thinking? Don't they care that their game is broken? Why do they slough off and get by only with the smallest set of fixes that they can?

They have at least ten folks who are willing to chase bugs and document them and then retest the fix, yet they give us the brush off and insult us?!?!

Also, I don't think it's fair to compare SMAC with the games that you mentioned. It's clear that they are all much more demanding of the equipment and technology than SMAC is. I think that is what steams people about the h/w incompatibility of SMAC. It's not like they are doing all kinds of animation and rendering in real-time. Let's face it. Firaxis bungled when they chose the graphics engine/tools that they did. They could have gotten by with something far less complex and far more robust.

What people really expect from a game like SMAC is that all of the STRATEGY parts of the game work. When things like game structures, secret projects, etc. don't work like they are supposed to, THAT is a problem for the diehards.

-------------

posted 08-06-99 02:40 AM ET         

And we all have cranky days, I know. Just cool it with the crankiness, everybody. Taking stuff personally is just part of being human. The bigger the game you play in life and the more people know you, the more stangers' opinions of you will polarize into good/bad. Here, with Jeff is no different. So look at playing a big game yourself and get out and transform an industry like Jeff did instead of whining. Remember no one has the power to make anyone else upset about anything. Jeff or anyone is just not that powerful enough to make me feel anything I don't already want to subconsciously. The things we think we're upset about are never the things we think we're upset about. You made you upset, not Jeff, Darkstar. If there was nothing there ready to go off like a firecracker as a reaction to certain stimuli you would not have gotten upset. It wouldn't matter if it was the queen of England who said it -- we all have our trigger spots in our personality. Jeff just happened to push one of the wrong buttons, through no fault of his own -- he just said what he said, and nothing else objectively happened. How you reacted is all your responsability, not his. And that goes for anyone, not just Darkstar, who feels they were slighted. It's all in your perception.

posted 08-06-99 03:09 AM ET            

I am a long way away from being an "Official" moron, or retard. For that matter, I am a long way from average. But as I said elsewhere... all the world is a moron. Just depends on your point of view.

Sid is, or at least was, a great designer. I hope he continues to bring into being the games he would enjoy because those are often games I would enjoy, based on past experience. But even the greatest artist run out of inspiration. So we will have to wait on Sid3 to see if he retains the title. Its safer to retire at the top, but that's not Sid.

I really don't think Brian is a *legend*. Just a lucky programmer in the right place. Either way, I have enjoyed a few of his games. The stuff he has had design control, I don't recall as enjoying as much as stuff he just contributed to. Just the way it breaks. His games aren't as tuned to my taste, I suppose. Nothing wrong with that, and I don't hold it against him. I enjoyed the games, to some degree, although SMAC's enjoyment factor is below average for his stuff.

JM may have hurt my feelings. He certainly offended my sense of intelligence, as well as my professional knowledge. I know he didn't say anything personal about me, but I know ALL those songs and dance. He did not actually give us "insight into this mess we call the game industry". He gave us insights into why he can't do HIS job. Not why there will always be bugs... but why JM at Firaxis cannot do his job. I've already detailed why bugs exist in the Boycott thread. I understand that their is an economic level that makes pursuing a higher quality (read, less buggy) product unfeasible. But Jeff wrote a poor piece if that was what he was writing. You know what? It wasn't. It was why he can't do his job.

And you know what? I will never stop Crusading for a better game. If we, the customers, don't make it an issue, the game companies will just keep funding and prioritizing the way they are, where QA gets the shaft first. But this isn't about that. This is about JM writing a diaper piece, and thumbing his nose at us.

Why are you writing a reply? Just had to get it out of the system? Obviously, I DON'T spend half my time moaning about bugs. So tell me, you just had to do it? I can understand. Tempers flare. I've stepped over the line and gone personal from time to time. But this isn't whether my ego is bigger or more delicate than yours. This is about JM's poorly chosen article, and what it represents. Does it JUST represent the Head QA of Firaxis and his policies to the stupid customers that pay his bills? Or is it a common Firaxis policy that we customers are unworthy of their efforts? Which is it?

If its just JM's attitude, that means that he's just going to sit in his office and play Minesweeper and Quickcell right? Noone in his department needs to work at finding bugs and oddities in the products developed by the programmers and developers, like Sid and Brian, well he? What's the point? They will only have 3 days, and all the user problems with be due to the user's stupidity and or their hardware. No point in testing anything. Obviously, the QA department at Firaxis is just an excuse for Brian and Sid to have their friend around during the day then, isn't it?

If it's Firaxis's attitude, and seeing as noone has stepped forward, we have to PRESUME that, as Jeff is Management (he is the department head, and DMs know the policy and company lines), this article reflects VERY poorly on Firaxis. And if they really don't want to keep their customers happy, then I won't be their customer. Other companies make good games. And you can bet I don't have problems paying my hard earned money to support them, when they don't have such a piss-poor attitude.

Firaxis was created by the employees of Microprose that wanted to get out of the corporate mainstream attitude. Too restricting. There was probably a LOT of financial influence at work, as Microprose was in the crapper, financially. (That was how Hasbro managed to BUY it) Never make the mistake that they are "gamers". They may enjoy games, but there is a point you cross where you are a suit, even if an odd one. I'll believe they are gamers when they display a gamer's spirit. Until then, they are professionals who pay the bills by producing entertainment products.

How could boycotting Firaxis make things worse? Tell me, what is it that you think is wrong, and lessening the money will make it work. You didn't see anything wrong in the article, or the attitude. Why would people not buying Firaxis products make things worse?

Disgust? Keep your disgust. If you don't know when someone is conning you, insulting you, and making fun of you, that makes you a person to be pitied.

I got this nice bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. It's in great shape... real money maker. Interested, Dowdc?

posted 08-06-99 03:20 AM ET            

I was being overly cranky with DanS. I was out of place when I attacked him, and I apologized for it. Jeff's behaviour is more like one of my own doing it. It's out of line, and unprofessional. There are forms of etiquette and enforcement for such behavior, and as a customer of Firaxis, I am following them. I'd expect the same from my customers, under similar circumstances.

But there are sayings about people in the game industry. Not very kind. Some are true, and some are just obviously jealous. But I suppose I can better understand their origins now.

posted 08-06-99 04:26 AM ET            

Might we be seeing the same thing with FX, so that Sid ends up leaving again to found a new, small company devoted to making quality 'gamers' games.

posted 08-06-99 01:23 PM ET            

Yes, it's his job to do QA, but he has answered questions on the forums, which is above and beyond his job description, strictly speaking. He get points from me for that, and therefore will get the benefit of the doubt from me. He has done his job fairly well and graciously. I disagree that he has done it grossly poorly. The multiplayer stuff is unfortunate and should have been made playable (it is always the red-headed step-child of the gaming industry--I hate this, but it's true).

"Point2: Maybe JKM should learn from you and measure his words before he shoots off his mouth in public."

I have nothing to teach him... 5 lbs. of **** coming up!

In lieu of a PR department, I just don't expect JKM's writing to have the sheen of a press release. I don't mind seeing his ideas when they are a little rough around the edges. It seems (through his thread some months ago and this editorial) that he has been attempting to reach out and engage the gaming community in a discussion about what kind of computer game they want and the quality that they expect. I would like to encourage the discussion, even if I have to swallow my pride a couple of times.

"Question: Why is it overindulgent to call a man onto the carpet for his actions and words. Where I come from it's call 'being responsible.'"

I'm not arguing with the necessity of everyone expressing their opinions, even the negative ones. It's just that >10 negative, sometimes nasty threads does nobody any good. Again, I'm not arguing the content (well maybe a little), only the collective volume.

"Before you respond, I suggest you look back at the TI threads, the constructive criticism threads and the contributions to the CIV III list at Apolyton and note who are some of the major contributors of bug help and game ideas."

I have been here all along and am a thread manager on Apolyton's Civ III The List. I suggest you look there before posting.

posted 08-06-99 02:29 PM ET            

I certainly would have thought that a thread master would feel even more offended. FX's begs for uncompensated help with one hand and then smacks us all in the face with the other as a thank you. This and only this is what has so many of us hot. The bottom line is that you have to take the good with the bad. Or would you rather see BR come on the forums and tell us only to send in the great ideas and keep the stupid ones to ourself? No, BR has both brains and tact and he accepts all contributions equally. I'm sure they had a laugh fest with some of the ideas, but he certainly won't go out in public and mock them. Is that too much to expect from JKM?

Oh well, lets get a MOOII MP game going rather than beating a dead horse.

uncleroggy out