Attention FIRAXIS-New Invisibility Bug

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Author Topic:   Attention FIRAXIS-New Invisibility Bug

akathisia posted 07-29-99 04:45 PM ET
On multiple games on 4.0, bases of mine and of the AI have just "disappeared" so that the screen only shows the underlying terrain. If I click on where the base is supposed to be, I get the normal base production screen and afterwards the base reappears. I know where my bases are, but what if I can't see where an AI base is. Also, a Spartan ship was firing artillery at my base and then disappeared. I fired my artillery back at the blank water (no fungus) terrain and hit it. Then it disappeared again. This cycle repeated until I was finally able to destroy it. The ship was only 2 spaces away from my base, I had sensor arrays, and obviously it was within range to see because it was within range for long-range fire.
I haven't gotten save files for either of these situations, but I am psoitive they happened. If these consistently happen, it would make the game very difficult to play fairly. (And since I have no way of knowing whether an object is invisible unless I see it, there is no way of knowing how often it happens.)
Has anyone else experienced this?
Any chance of Firaxis fixing it with SMACX and CIV3 in production and a low chance of a 5th Enhancement?
akathisia

Krushala posted 07-29-99 05:46 PM ET
I think I saw an enemy base dissapear once. But it came back. I think they have cloaking devices to give them a chance.
BusterMan posted 07-29-99 08:13 PM ET
Did you sink their battleship?
BusterMan posted 07-29-99 08:14 PM ET
Did you sink their battleship?
Zoetrope posted 07-29-99 10:47 PM ET
akithisia: your observation is correct. I often have bases and units disappear and reappear. It is apparently triggered by common mouse clicks and changes of view.
Also, many objects half-disappear: the top or bottom half of a former is a frequent example, but it applies to other caviar units as well. I don't recall whether half-disappearance happens to bases, but given that total disappearance occurs, I shouldn't be surprised if it did.
It's truly amazing that "Quality Control" can let such blatant faults pass, time and again. If Firaxis had handed me a copy of any of the versions of SMAC (not that I'm begging, just demonstrating my inherent superiority to the people they are currently employing for this task), I would have been able to tell them immediately of these bugs.
Frankly, though, I'm still even more concerned about the issue of "micromanagement hell" that afflicts complex strategy games and makes them (is Sid Meier reading these forums?) Much Less Fun.
There is a solution to micromanagement, which can be learnt from prior industry experience with complex systems, as has been repeatedly stated, but Firaxis don't seem to be listening.
Sooner or later, the Loss of Fun will affect their Bottom Line, which will be bad for them and for us.
White_Cat posted 07-30-99 05:43 AM ET
You're sure you're not just triggering the "show terrain only" command by accident?
akathisia posted 07-30-99 07:41 AM ET
Zoe:I have had the half disapperance as well and it most commonly has been the top half of a base that goes. It's very discouraging for the future of Firaxis when they let a bug like this arise anew in 4.0. I have always been a big supporter of their efforts to correct a lot of minor things in the game. But come on! Things disappear and no one noticed.
Zoe:I'm positive about not activating any of the map display or hide terrain commands. It's only one unit or base that disappears, the rest of the screen is normal.
I was hoping that JKM or someone would see the Attention-FIRAXIS and at least comment.
P.S. SMAC is still the game I play 90% of the time and up until now, I really hadn't been bothered by any of the other bugs.
Centaurion posted 07-30-99 08:08 AM ET
I�ve had the same problem only with (my) PBs.
In my current game, the icons for orbital facilities and stockpile energy is missing..(This is a version 3. game)
Elfi Wolfe posted 07-30-99 03:56 PM ET
I have been working on this project since the start of the beta test. and I have never seen that. so quit belittling us.
more seriously. what is you video card and what version of directx are you using?
akathisia posted 07-30-99 06:22 PM ET
You really think I'm belittling you? I thought I was pretty even-tempered (especially compared to SMAC's critics in the past) No other bug has bothered me until now. I just thought it was strange that something like the long-time questionable Infinite Range Missle Bug was proven and corrected but something that seemed obvious was missed.
I have an ATI Rage Pro Turbo 2X and DirectX 6.1. I have never had this problem until 4.0 and I have made no changes to my system. Thanks for your help.
BTW, do you beta test SMACX also?
akathisia
MoSe posted 07-31-99 01:50 PM ET
I keep playing SMAC, but this doesn't mean I'm blind. Only that as I can endure mosquitos stings, I can endure SMAC bugs.
So, EW, no need to be that sensible, if you didn't lost touch with reality.
SMAC is full of minor bugs. Even if it had been widely publicly betatested (what were they looking at?).
Sad thing, is that not only you can find normal and acceptable miscoding and misimplemeting problems in such a huge code, but poorly designed UI too, and that bothers me a lot.
Last example, which is hitting distracted PBEMers: would you define user-friendly an UI which does not disable the "Save&Exit" button when you activate the dialog box from "Load Multiplayer" in outer menu? This is not poor skill; this is classical lack of caring for UI.
I have stopped complaining long ago, and tried to think positive.
I appreciate, like many do, all the efforts that many put in the project, but please do a reality check before feelling belittled from the most even-tempered remark I read here in the last 7 months.
I had the opportunity of testing SMAC by friends and at work, on a dozen different systems, with different OS, CPUs and videocards.
The top-half objects disappearing was a constant, which I could live with without protesting. I didn't realize now whole bases can get invisible!
As a good beta tester should know from theory, if you don't find bugs, the testing failed: you didn't prove the code is bugless, you just failed to spot where the bugs are.
This shows the testing you conducted was not wide, or was not tight.
Unless you blame the OS (please, not again), or think that all people who see bugs which you can't see, are visionary, or liers.
peace_keeper posted 07-31-99 02:57 PM ET
my bases only ever half dissapear, adn I find that it is always when they are ontop of a hill.
if you press ctr+shift+x, it should stop it, as it toggles flattened terrain
akathisia posted 08-01-99 10:20 PM ET
MoSe: Thanks for the emotional support. You're from Italy aren't you? You could sense that I'm Italian-American and inexorably felt the need to support me.
Peace: I had also noticed the half-only disappearing. That didn't bother me too much, but I didn't notice whther or not it had to do with placement on hills.
akathisia-I've given up lurking...someone from the past must continue the tradition here
ZyXEL posted 08-02-99 09:26 AM ET
Half-only disappearing is very often, and it does'nt bother me, but when I can't find my Planet busters, then I'm pissed off. I was building PBs, waiting for the right moment. When I got them up in the air, I simply lost them! They were invisible! Next turn I saw only crashing explosions.
About base losses, never happened to me.
HMFIC posted 08-02-99 02:53 PM ET
Ive seen/experienced the disappearing and re-appearing phenomenon. For those who have not seen it, it reminds me of my old TI 99/4A days when you only could have 4 sprites per line and the 5th one would disappear until you moved one out of the line. Come to think of it, that could answer a lot of the coding questions about SMAC...perhaps it was coded/tested on an old TI!
akathisia posted 08-02-99 03:09 PM ET
HMFIC: I had thought about the same thing, except I considered it similar to the Atari 2600 back in 1977. That must be where they got their ideas, 'cause now comes the next installment...Space Invaders!
Seriously, though, I posted this with Attention-FIRAXIS in the title in order to get their attention (oddly enough) about the bug. Except for that beta-tester, no word so far from anybody at Firaxis. Guess they don't read the forums anymore.
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Author	Topic: Attention FIRAXIS-New Invisibility Bug
akathisia	posted 07-29-99 04:45 PM ET On multiple games on 4.0, bases of mine and of the AI have just "disappeared" so that the screen only shows the underlying terrain. If I click on where the base is supposed to be, I get the normal base production screen and afterwards the base reappears. I know where my bases are, but what if I can't see where an AI base is. Also, a Spartan ship was firing artillery at my base and then disappeared. I fired my artillery back at the blank water (no fungus) terrain and hit it. Then it disappeared again. This cycle repeated until I was finally able to destroy it. The ship was only 2 spaces away from my base, I had sensor arrays, and obviously it was within range to see because it was within range for long-range fire. I haven't gotten save files for either of these situations, but I am psoitive they happened. If these consistently happen, it would make the game very difficult to play fairly. (And since I have no way of knowing whether an object is invisible unless I see it, there is no way of knowing how often it happens.) Has anyone else experienced this? Any chance of Firaxis fixing it with SMACX and CIV3 in production and a low chance of a 5th Enhancement? akathisia
Krushala	posted 07-29-99 05:46 PM ET I think I saw an enemy base dissapear once. But it came back. I think they have cloaking devices to give them a chance.
BusterMan	posted 07-29-99 08:13 PM ET Did you sink their battleship?
BusterMan	posted 07-29-99 08:14 PM ET Did you sink their battleship?
Zoetrope	posted 07-29-99 10:47 PM ET akithisia: your observation is correct. I often have bases and units disappear and reappear. It is apparently triggered by common mouse clicks and changes of view. Also, many objects half-disappear: the top or bottom half of a former is a frequent example, but it applies to other caviar units as well. I don't recall whether half-disappearance happens to bases, but given that total disappearance occurs, I shouldn't be surprised if it did. It's truly amazing that "Quality Control" can let such blatant faults pass, time and again. If Firaxis had handed me a copy of any of the versions of SMAC (not that I'm begging, just demonstrating my inherent superiority to the people they are currently employing for this task), I would have been able to tell them immediately of these bugs. Frankly, though, I'm still even more concerned about the issue of "micromanagement hell" that afflicts complex strategy games and makes them (is Sid Meier reading these forums?) Much Less Fun. There is a solution to micromanagement, which can be learnt from prior industry experience with complex systems, as has been repeatedly stated, but Firaxis don't seem to be listening. Sooner or later, the Loss of Fun will affect their Bottom Line, which will be bad for them and for us.
White_Cat	posted 07-30-99 05:43 AM ET You're sure you're not just triggering the "show terrain only" command by accident?
akathisia	posted 07-30-99 07:41 AM ET Zoe:I have had the half disapperance as well and it most commonly has been the top half of a base that goes. It's very discouraging for the future of Firaxis when they let a bug like this arise anew in 4.0. I have always been a big supporter of their efforts to correct a lot of minor things in the game. But come on! Things disappear and no one noticed. Zoe:I'm positive about not activating any of the map display or hide terrain commands. It's only one unit or base that disappears, the rest of the screen is normal. I was hoping that JKM or someone would see the Attention-FIRAXIS and at least comment. P.S. SMAC is still the game I play 90% of the time and up until now, I really hadn't been bothered by any of the other bugs.
Centaurion	posted 07-30-99 08:08 AM ET I�ve had the same problem only with (my) PBs. In my current game, the icons for orbital facilities and stockpile energy is missing..(This is a version 3. game)
Elfi Wolfe	posted 07-30-99 03:56 PM ET I have been working on this project since the start of the beta test. and I have never seen that. so quit belittling us. more seriously. what is you video card and what version of directx are you using?
akathisia	posted 07-30-99 06:22 PM ET You really think I'm belittling you? I thought I was pretty even-tempered (especially compared to SMAC's critics in the past) No other bug has bothered me until now. I just thought it was strange that something like the long-time questionable Infinite Range Missle Bug was proven and corrected but something that seemed obvious was missed. I have an ATI Rage Pro Turbo 2X and DirectX 6.1. I have never had this problem until 4.0 and I have made no changes to my system. Thanks for your help. BTW, do you beta test SMACX also? akathisia
MoSe	posted 07-31-99 01:50 PM ET I keep playing SMAC, but this doesn't mean I'm blind. Only that as I can endure mosquitos stings, I can endure SMAC bugs. So, EW, no need to be that sensible, if you didn't lost touch with reality. SMAC is full of minor bugs. Even if it had been widely publicly betatested (what were they looking at?). Sad thing, is that not only you can find normal and acceptable miscoding and misimplemeting problems in such a huge code, but poorly designed UI too, and that bothers me a lot. Last example, which is hitting distracted PBEMers: would you define user-friendly an UI which does not disable the "Save&Exit" button when you activate the dialog box from "Load Multiplayer" in outer menu? This is not poor skill; this is classical lack of caring for UI. I have stopped complaining long ago, and tried to think positive. I appreciate, like many do, all the efforts that many put in the project, but please do a reality check before feelling belittled from the most even-tempered remark I read here in the last 7 months. I had the opportunity of testing SMAC by friends and at work, on a dozen different systems, with different OS, CPUs and videocards. The top-half objects disappearing was a constant, which I could live with without protesting. I didn't realize now whole bases can get invisible! As a good beta tester should know from theory, if you don't find bugs, the testing failed: you didn't prove the code is bugless, you just failed to spot where the bugs are. This shows the testing you conducted was not wide, or was not tight. Unless you blame the OS (please, not again), or think that all people who see bugs which you can't see, are visionary, or liers.
peace_keeper	posted 07-31-99 02:57 PM ET my bases only ever half dissapear, adn I find that it is always when they are ontop of a hill. if you press ctr+shift+x, it should stop it, as it toggles flattened terrain
akathisia	posted 08-01-99 10:20 PM ET MoSe: Thanks for the emotional support. You're from Italy aren't you? You could sense that I'm Italian-American and inexorably felt the need to support me. Peace: I had also noticed the half-only disappearing. That didn't bother me too much, but I didn't notice whther or not it had to do with placement on hills. akathisia-I've given up lurking...someone from the past must continue the tradition here
ZyXEL	posted 08-02-99 09:26 AM ET Half-only disappearing is very often, and it does'nt bother me, but when I can't find my Planet busters, then I'm pissed off. I was building PBs, waiting for the right moment. When I got them up in the air, I simply lost them! They were invisible! Next turn I saw only crashing explosions. About base losses, never happened to me.
HMFIC	posted 08-02-99 02:53 PM ET Ive seen/experienced the disappearing and re-appearing phenomenon. For those who have not seen it, it reminds me of my old TI 99/4A days when you only could have 4 sprites per line and the 5th one would disappear until you moved one out of the line. Come to think of it, that could answer a lot of the coding questions about SMAC...perhaps it was coded/tested on an old TI!
akathisia	posted 08-02-99 03:09 PM ET HMFIC: I had thought about the same thing, except I considered it similar to the Atari 2600 back in 1977. That must be where they got their ideas, 'cause now comes the next installment...Space Invaders! Seriously, though, I posted this with Attention-FIRAXIS in the title in order to get their attention (oddly enough) about the bug. Except for that beta-tester, no word so far from anybody at Firaxis. Guess they don't read the forums anymore.