posted 07-20-99 04:30 PM ET     

I often wonder why MOO2 and Civ 1 are still on my harddrive where as AC is gone. Birth of the Federation graced, then tainted, my harddrive for 6 days whereas the 7 Master of Magic installation disk stand readily beside my laptop. It is because these games I so love are much older therefore it has time on its side? Apparently not. These older games (some much older such as Pax Imperia, M.U.L.E, stars 1.0 to 2.7 etc,) had a certain "look and feel" that drastically makes them unique. Everything else that seems to follow is just a polished up, as Yin26 states, "Whore" with lots of make-up instead of the princesses we strategy gamers come to expect. Sadily speaking, and I'm sure many of you feel this way, the great spark in 4x Strategy games is slowly dimishing as the pioneers are now milking their ideas and franchise instead of boldly venturing into unexplored strategy gaming. Wouldn't it be great if the AI actually built something besides offensive units? It was bareable in MOO and MOO2, Civ and maybe even Civ 2 gold. . .but these new games. . .nada-zip, zil. Wouldn't it be nice to play on a 3-d map with a sky and ground? There needs to be a change of quantum leap portions; therefore, I can't wait until Black & White comes out . Hopefully, it won't be as disappointing as ST: BotF. Likewise, everyone states that Alpha Centauri could be so much more. In truth. . .I doubt it could be because the programmers are sticking to tried and true ideas which are great 6 year old ideas. Sadly, it's not great 1999 ideas. These are the same people who worked on Civ, Civ II, etc.--wouldn't you expect similiarities? Anyway. . .maybe it's time to stop programming the whores, your make-up is running.

posted 07-20-99 05:53 PM ET            

I couldn't agree with you more. I bought Birth of the Federation two weeks ago for $50 thinking that it might get me to Test of Time. Then I made the "mistake" of searching the $15 bargain bin last weekend and came up with MOOII. I say mistake because BOTF is headed for the trashcan and MOOII will probably get me to Civ III. Although it's mostly a galactic shoot-em-up, it's a charming and challenging game.

Funny though, I see an awful lot of similarities between MOOII and SMAC. In fact, so many similarities that I'm now exceptionally disappointed with SMAC.

posted 07-20-99 06:10 PM ET            

The official reason that SMAC has so many simularities to MOOII is that Brian and Sid and the gang did a survey of die-hard strategy players before putting SMAC together, and a LOT of MOOII issues and items were on the list. Such as custom designing units, racial special abilities, etc etc etc.

That, and MOOII was heavily influenced by CivII which is what SMAC used as its model in the first place...

posted 07-20-99 09:32 PM ET            

I guess that means that Firaxis is running around in circles just like the terraformers.

At least MOOII looks like it might present a challenge.

Game 1: Antarans immitate Sherman's march across Georgia.

Game 2: Psilons immitate Antarans from the previous game.

Considering that I have never lost more than one city to the SMAC A/I in any game, this is quite humbling. And this is only normal difficulty.

MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

posted 07-20-99 11:45 PM ET            

jkm

posted 07-21-99 01:29 AM ET            

Stargazer: Ummm - BR did not work on Civ. Sid Meier did. Sid Meier was not directly responsible for SMAC, despite fact it bears his name.

Whether he's outdated, or the strong link in the team remains to be seen. But he hasn't often disappointed.

posted 07-21-99 01:38 AM ET            

uncleroggy, they had left the A-not-I rather cranked up in the first releases... it was hard to win on TUTORIAL level... (Yes, I bought it as soon as it hit the shelves).

I actually preferred MOO over MOOII. I liked the give and take, raiding actions and whatnot in MOO. But MOOII is still a lot of fun. Even have it on my hard-drive (and been contemplating playing it for a while). The Antarians aren't a big deal, unless you ignore them for too long. Then, they'll kick your butt.

Enjoy!

posted 07-21-99 02:33 AM ET            

MOOII should still be findable. Check with your local super stores and favorite online retailers... hummm... considering the Microprose has online ordering, they may have it online.

I got mine when the game came out.

And StarGazerBC, there were LOTS of patches. Although the only one I found necessary was l.01... where they reset the level of cheating by the Opp Engine so that you didn't have to sweat your bottom off trying to win Tutorial.

posted 07-21-99 03:00 AM ET         

hehehe. low-g, charismatic, dictatorship and pray I don't die at Impossible.

Honestly, and I think many will agree, it would've been nice if the weapons were unique in SMAC (instead of just modifiers). Even the small implementation of Projectile/Energy/Mass type weapons/armor would've added another level of strategy to AC. Which brings 3 huge reasons why I play MOOII (and respectively, Stars! 2.7. . heck even 1.0)

I could customize my side with uniqueness. AC has someting similiar to it but nothing unique (modifiable text files-Good or Bad. . .on the next Jerry Springer ::chuckles: or no "specific traits" which made the faction stand out

Science and technology--
Not enough research paths!! I think it would've been a lot smarter to just divide each "Tech" so a person must research 1 ability at a time instead of getting 3-4 per tech--which would boast (albeit genericly) the tech tree.

Management-city and units

I particularly like the whole "city-state" philosophy in Civ 1, Civ II, and SMAC--which MOOII has too What was poorly implemented, and many will agree , is the design workshop. Not enough variety, not enough BANG!, everything's just a modifier. How about a weapon thata creates a gate and warps the unit somewhere on the map. or Active defense batteries that shot ice beams! Something besides 4, 8, 16, points of damage ::chuckles::

As Darkstar said, MOOII issues were listed when Sid and Brian did a survey. I'm glad they added new stuff and implemented elements from other great games. . .unfortunately the implementation is like taking one brick from a skyscraper and trying to build a new building. . with that one brick

posted 07-21-99 09:51 AM ET            

In SMAC the AI builds tons of military units walking around senselessly like drunken sailors (random walk I guess!), you conquer cities with 15 Needlejets with one copter, or you see lots of AI cities with drone riots half of the time(why has the AI drone riots at all, I don't understand) and lots of other examples you may know.

Although I played MOO2 a lot the AI was even worse, and I find the game imbalanced. In early game a few destroyers with MIRVed missiles destroy even battle ships, in the late game you need only beam weapons. The AI rarely attacks missile bases and starbases are nearly useless for defence, and so on and so on.

Back to SMAC. I would love to have Governours who do their work at least on a minimum level. Now Governours work in the early game more or less satisfying, but you don't need them at that stage. Later in the game I would like to have them, but they build (as the AI enemies always do) expensive military units or city improvements(perimeter defense) before building the elementary ones as recycling tanks or recreation centers. If I would use them my cities were undefended for 20 turns, propably with drone riots.

I would like to have AI factions who react on what you are doing, not merely reacting on your social settings or your military power. Its ridiculess that I must turn to green when i want to talk to Deirde and to Free Market when I talk to Morgan. And if I unfortunately meet some of their units without a chance to change my social settings they break their pact with me or even declare vendetta.

I think there are a lot of unbalanced things in SMAC, but because of the weak AI you do not notice it. For example you cannot really protect yourself from probe teams. If I want to steal a technology from a faction I am nearly always successfull, because there are lots of ways to enter the enemys area. If the AI would do the same you never would be leading in tech and researching would be a lot less useful.

posted 07-21-99 02:52 PM ET            

The Antarans aren't much of a problem if you turn them *OFF*. That's what I did!

Right now I'm in game three against The Alkari? and I was doing fine until I rejected a non-aggression treaty. Then poof, out of nowhere pops up 4 Titans, & Battleships and half a dozen cruisers and destroyers. The net result, scratch 3 colonies. We,re headed for a whopper of a battle as my fleet of 2 titans, 6bb's, 8 cruisers and 7 destroyers are going to meet in about 4 turns. Although he has more "heavies", I've got maulers. Now if I can just get in close.......

posted 07-21-99 03:41 PM ET            

I had forgotten you COULD turn off the Antareans... That was what I had to do when I was working out my basic MOOII strategies.

Despite the claims of Denker, star bases and their larger relatives are well worth building in MOOII. Heck a decent base with a little something on the planet can keep killing the early Antarean raiders without any Naval help. The added command points from bases are always nice as well...

Enjoy your game. MOOII is a blast if you like space conquest games...

posted 07-22-99 09:52 PM ET         

and the newsgroup is rec.games.computer.stars

posted 07-22-99 10:13 PM ET            

The same exact stategy used to win MOO will beat the AI in MOO2 every single time, no matter the settings.

Denker is right on the money. And I am convinced that the next great game will come from a game company where the money men have no say or simply do not exist. It will come from folks who are what Sid and Brian once were: people who want to make a game that they themselves "crave" to play.

Darkstar, I always favored those subterranean races myself....but I never could spell subterreanen....

jimmytrick
[its the AI stupid]

posted 07-22-99 10:26 PM ET            

Bravo, encore, I agree 100%

I especially feel that way since I just paid a whopping $15 to pick up MOOII. Regardless of the quality of the a/i, it's a lot of fun at that price.

Now where's that $35 refund for SMAC?

uncleroggy out

OOPS-

Battle update game 3.

posted 07-22-99 10:45 PM ET         

btw Uncleroggy. maulers are fun. . but trust me. . phasers with all types of upgrades (except heavy platform maybe) for the mid-to later game (be sure to get as much phasers in as possible. . at least 60). And there's the mauler equivalent you can get. . .death ray . . .way cool.

posted 07-23-99 01:31 AM ET            

I don't know, but they might have tweeked the a/i. I am up against mucho improvements and I can't understand how the a/i is churning out countless starships at the same time. I fought 8 or 9 battles with the same fleet and took out 150 plus Alkari ships and the a/i just finally whittled me down to the point where it took me out. I'm now trying to replace my losses, but he's got a 30+ fleet already on the way.

BTW, I'm not designing my own ships. I'm leaving that for game 4.

posted 07-23-99 02:07 AM ET         

Some races are stronger, others are not:

Darloks are the worst!! They can sneak around the map with their fleet and you can't even detect'em. Granted, Darloks will be even more powerful if they have Psilons to pick on. That's why I usually design my race with the Darlok pic. . so the AI can't use it. hehehe

If you want to deter Antarans/AI races from attacking your colonies. . build a lot of outpost. They will undoubtedly attack these too (and since you have more targets, it's less likely random events/invasion forces will affect a colony).

If you met someone in the first 20 turns, build 2-3 spies real quick, set them on offensive to espionage. You may have lost 15 or so turns in development, but now you have a sneaky offensive side to steal tech, money and hinder their growth. This is not a good tip if your spy rating is low (ie--democracy)

The AI cheats!!! They'll most undoubtedly have another colony early on and build really fast and be able to buy ships/buildings even during a blockade--

Which leads to how to mass your forces--In MOOII it's possible to build 1+ ships in 1 turn on a single planet. . overproduction doesn't just carry over the next turn. It helps you build more in 1 turn! That's also why I suggested to build phasers (or another variation of "enhanced" lower weapons). . the more weapons the more chances you can get to attack. 5 maulers--shoots up to 5 ships reguardless of hp/armor/shield. That same space can be used for 50+ enhanced phasers with continuous, shield-piercing, etc. . .leading to a possibility of 50 shots. This trick only works right up until AI researches shieldVII or armor a bit lower than neutrionium (will get back to you on that

Always always steal tech (especially if you're not Creative). Board ships. exchange in your favor, invade colonies, etc. If you let the AI win the tech race for too long you're almost as good as done for.

Never ever use default ships. A human designed ship can take on 3-4 AI designed ships with same level tech. Why? the AI design ships do not entirely take advantage of "Specials" nor do they add weapons modificiations until too late. And the design of the ship changes too slowly.

Another thing I use: Once I get the titan class I build 6-8 of these things with near zero specs. Why? I just let them sit and soak up experience until I can put neat stuff on them (ie lightning shield, phasers with a lot of modificiations, newest shields, etc.) and it's faster just to upgrade

All of these tips I use in my games, they seem to work very well. .hope they work well for you too.

If I can think of more, I'll be sure to send'em here. . .

posted 07-23-99 12:00 PM ET            

Wow, thanks for all the good ideas. You can bet I'll try them on game 4.

Right now, I'm playing the humans against the Alkaris on the huge galaxy. We have about the same number of bases and the power graph shows me slightly ahead in everything exceot buildings. We're about dead even there. Difficulty setting is normal and the Antarans are off. This is pretty much a test game as I wanted to see what the ai did and how to fight. Needless to say I've made a few mistakes too. For example, I don't tend to pay a lot of attention to the menus and didn't realise that I hadn't allocated any of my fleet commanders! OOps.

BTW, I checked at Microprose and I didn't see patch 2.7. I think they called it 1.3. Are they the same?

Thanks again,

posted 07-23-99 03:20 PM ET         

If you have "large planet" "mineral rich" and or subterranean (anything that increases your pop above normal) then this'll definitely work better on medium and smaller maps where you don't need to expand so much.)

I consider this my Rush Tech Strat:

Build Colony Base (1 worker)

Research hydro. farm.

switch base to farm once you can build it.
free farming person to research

research electronics

revert to base or spy (depending if you have a viable base you want to colonize or want to do espionage. . .computer is really weak against early espionage btw--it even takes them about ~20 turns to adjust at Impossible early on)

Research Research Lab; switch production to Lab once it pops up at buildable que.

research soil enrichment. (you may want cloning facility if you decide to expand a lot)
build spy
build soil enrichment
free person to research

research electronics all the way up to supercomputer. (and maybe autolab, but you may lose out on important ship equipment)

research up to automated factory (AI almost always researches missle defense so you can exchange for that . . .or better yet, espionage or invasion)

research all prewarp techs. Since you should have ~200+ research points by now these are easy to get.

btw. . .be sure to always get automated repair unit and use it on ships. It's usually not viable to get pollution processor or atmospheric renewer b/c later on you can get the deep core waste dump (no pollution whatsoever). That's another reason why you want a lot of research. .A lot of techs in the higher lvls help your Entire empire (ie galactic network, advanced government, galactic currency, stellar converter--blow. . up. . planets. . ., instantaneous jump gate, Evolution, etc.)

It's not very viable to expand a lot without a military because once one AI sees you as a threat. . be asured the rest will attack. Therefore, you can definitely last longer being a pacificist until you get Titan class and sky-rocket your weapons/armor research while building that huge tin can(you did do all the +research techs first right? ) and go rampaging across the galaxy with 3-4 titans. Once the Titan is almost built, redesign, change to the new design

Of note for invasions. I usually capture alien species so I can use their "special traits," ie. I would invade and take over a Sakkra planet, once they're converted, I move 1 of each to my other planets (sub.---+6 Sakkra pop. set them to farm, Klackon (sp?) +1 production/farm, psilon-to research, meklar--production, etc.) If you're not already doing this, I'd greatly suggest trying it

posted 07-23-99 06:16 PM ET         

Uncleroggy,
What I always do to a powerful AI race is to conduct terror attacks. That means to use a concentrated fleet to destroy powerful enemy planets. Once you weakened your enemy to a certain point, it's time to hold and use their planets for your benefits. However, you don't wait too long before you attack. After discovering Pollution Processor, build six battleships at once and start attacking. Make sure you get to Zortium Armor before you finish your ship. The building order can be changed at any time. At beginning, you may want to use missles instead of beams. They do far more damage and never miss. A MIRVed, fast nuclear missle is better than several neutron blasters without battlescanner. Once you unleash your fleet, the AI will be forced to deal with your fleet. You can conduct a hit and run in its territory until reinforcements arrive. Face the Ai fleet if a victory is certain. Then you'll have dozens of turns to consolidate your hold on the new conquests. BTW, I strongly recommend you to select the Telepathic race. It's really annoying to build dozens of transports and Alien Control Centers.

posted 07-24-99 10:49 PM ET            

Game 4 Results:

This time I went 1 on 1 vs the Darloks on the huge map(I was humans). Anatarans off, but tactical battles on so I could learn to design ships.

Result: Overwhelming human victory. The game ended when I torched about 14 bases with a fleet of over a 100 ships. My favorite platform was the Doom star platform loaded with beam weapons as you pointed out. WOW! One shot, one titan GONE

A final note about the darloks. They seemed to threaten and lot and they were a bunch of tech stealin SOB'S. Other than that, they never came after me once. I think I beat them to the punch with one of those guys that shows you the whole map and I could cherry pick my base locations.

Now it's time for game 5 and this time I'll try to fight the battles.