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Author Topic:   Diplomacy Ideas...

Nell_Smith posted 04-06-99 02:29 AM ET
When I offer to make Treaties or Pacts with the AI factions, they get the option of asking me to throw in a tech or some money to sweeten the deal. I'd like to be able to do the same when the AI offers me Treaties/Pacts, rather than just saying yes or no.
More choice of Planetary Council proposals would be nice too, such as:
1. Persuade all the other factions to initiate sanctions against a persistently aggressive faction (whether or not they are using PBs)
2. Propose Planetary equivalent of SALT Treaty to ban the production of PBs (as already mentioned in another post)
3. Becoming Planetary Governor gives you a very significant advantage (perhaps too powerful?) and I think it would be more interesting if it were much harder to get voted in as Governor. Also, it would be more fun to make more "offices" available than just Planetary Governor, and get different benefits: for example:-
Military Strategist = your troops get +1 Morale
Economic Expert = you get a 10% Energy bonus
Research Administrator = 10% Research
Resources Adviser = 10% Minerals bonus
I like the Council feature - adds a lot to realism - and I think it should be made more of
jaghar posted 04-06-99 06:42 AM ET
I'd like to see the option to try to flatter the leader of another faction. Also they should be able to do any and everything you can do as well. Like offer you gifts.
Granted that for all the meanies and war mongers out there who would just take the gifts and kill the faction anyway.. there are those of us who are just too nice and we life gifts too.
MoSe posted 04-06-99 07:12 AM ET
Yes, it has been widely covered b4, and there are many good ideas about enhancing diplo options.
I would like to see it completely symmetrical between humans and AIs, but maybe ther's more in it than you happen to see in few shots.
For one, only after few games I was kindly offered for free some tech from newly pactie Deirdre (nope, I didn't probe her).
And lately, in a tight close governor's election (in which alas I was third, due to Lal's & Empath guild votes doubling), entering the council a Lal's window popped up trying to (meagerly) bribe me for my vote.
As for your 3., Nell, are you a (trance)former "Machiavelli, the Prince" player?
Usually you don't get voted to offices, you get nominated, by the governor, provided you have shown the right 'credentials'.
And maybe we can add sort of FAO/UNESCO attach� gaining growth bouns.
Aredhran posted 04-06-99 07:35 AM ET
Yeah. Or just call it Health Minister, or something. It would grant you +10% growth, of course, but would also pop reminders such as "Lack of sleep is bad for your health. Please save your game and turn your computer off now." or "You are hopelessely addicted to this game. Go and seek medical help"
Of course, failure to comply would result in your deprivation of the 10% growth bonus...

-Aredhran
Nell_Smith posted 04-06-99 05:01 PM ET
Machiavellian?? Me??? Perish the thought...hehehe
No but seriously, I actually like to be a "good guy" player, honouring Pacts and stuff like that, which is one of the reasons why I was thinking it would be good to have several "offices" you could put yourself up for... obviously, if you've been honourable, the others would hopefully be more likely to vote for you, a nice benefit for not being a total warmonger. The other reason is, like I said, the fact that the single Planetary Governor office seems to give you an AWFUL lot of power, so it might be an idea to split it up into several bits so that no one person becomes stupidly powerful all in one go. Of course, one person could try to get voted into all the several offices at once!!
Another one occurred to me: I've often thought that the infiltration information you get from being Governor is a little unbalanced, although for sure it's a very nice thing to have in your favour. Maybe there could be an office called, say, "Planetary Security Chief" and if you get voted into that, then you get all the infiltration information. Surely that one should be a hard one to win votes for, though!
PS: Yep, I too have been offered free techs by Pact allies and have also been offered bribes in the Council votes... I LOVE that feature, especially when I receive a fat bribe from Santiago to vote the way I was gonna vote anyway!!!!!! hehehehhehe
JAMiAM posted 04-06-99 05:07 PM ET
Nell,
Cool idea regarding the other offices. I've yet to play multiplayer, but just imagine all of the wheeling & dealing that would go on! Santiago wants military leader, but lets give it to Dierdre! In return, you get the Governor and I get Economics minister.
JAMiAM
"Keep your friends close. But, keep your enemies even closer."
MoSe posted 04-07-99 08:21 AM ET
Nell, I'm with you on many of your points,
and I wasn't questioning wether your reputation is noble or ruthless.
I was talking of an actual MicroProse game, 'Machiavelli, the Prince' because your idea of offices comes from that game, which deals with commerce, trading routes, two dozens of different goods with different prices in the ~40 cities on the pre-columbian map (NO americas, flat world).
The 4 players start from Venice, there you find a city council with 10 senators. You have to bribe them, and eventually run for Doge (you can also buy Cardinals and run for Pope at the same time). The newly elected Doge nominates then four administering offices, and is forced to give one position to each player that owns a senator, otherwise he can also set the position to neutral. The 4 positions are General (manoeuvres the republican army, in addition to the mercenaries anyone can hire), Admiral (same as republican fleet), Road Builder (ditto) and Council Head.
The trick was that you were given an annual budget (set by the Doge), and if you failed to spend at least its half each year for the task you were appointed, you just lost some reputation! Only the Council Head earned no money, but he had the power of accusing senator of treason and have them hanged (their newly appointed neutral substitutes were eager to be bribed).
Not exactly a rocking game, but had its goods (ships, donkeys, camels, slanderers, arsonists, assassins, pirates, brigands storms, excommunications, plagues, crusades, build you villa...).
MariOne
Nell_Smith posted 04-08-99 09:01 PM ET
MoSe, I hang my head in shame! I have never heard of MicroProse's "Machiavelli, The Prince"... though it sounds like the kind of game I'd like - plenty of diplomacy
Imran Siddiqui posted 04-09-99 12:58 AM ET
Actually Machiavelli gets a bad rep, however his major point stressed is to do things for the state! He would abhor the King that worked for his own benefit. And in this way, he is better than most people believe.
Imran Siddiqui
Pubudu posted 04-13-99 10:35 AM ET
I hate to go a bit off topic with this one (not at all SMAC), but it almost fits this thread.
Macciavelli is not so much reviled for his ends justify the means or fear is better than love arguments, but rather for the basis of them. The Prince only works if there is no God (You can't justify immoral actions otherwise). Thus, Macciavelli in fact argued that a Prince ought to be an atheist who pretended to be religious in order to keep his people under religion's sweet opiate. That's the main problem that most of his contemporaries had with him, anyway.
Bossman posted 04-13-99 10:41 AM ET
MoSe have you played that too!
I have got that at home too, although it is a tad on the boring side it does have that diplomatic feeling that CivII gave over to the average gamer. In my view though Elite is still a good runner for the title of best game of the century,
What do you say buddy?
MoSe posted 04-13-99 11:03 AM ET
Hope you're still there Bossman!
Yes, in the long run seemd a bit aimless, but the slanderer's punchlines were funny!
Of course it had to be played with frequent storms and pirates, and with no regard to your sinking rep.
Only I got crazy (I don't claim to be omnipotent (almighty?), but I strive to be omniscient) trying to determine each turn which was the best commerce enterprise!
Are you interested in a 1Meg .xls?
As for Elite, still waiting the moment to check if my golden memories stand the test of time...
Watcher of the Skye (watch of her all)
MariOne
Bossman posted 04-13-99 11:06 AM ET
Should be there any moment, but it was reasonably large for the Hotamil system so it could take a while, go on then send me this .xls file, I hope its good.
Bossman: "The best trainspotter that walked the earth."
MoSe posted 04-13-99 11:09 AM ET
Wow, is there really a town named Adelphi?
Here in Italy it's a top-notch lterature-culture-essays high-quality book publisher.
itdoesntfit posted 09-26-99 09:54 PM ET
Oh my god! Do I actually see Nell contributing to the game ?
BusterMan posted 09-28-99 03:56 PM ET
Going way back to the first post, that would probably be START 3 not the long antiquated SALT
-Parker
SMACTrek posted 09-28-99 05:26 PM ET
Option one. I'd like that if I could turn it off when using a bloodthirsty style to win. Yang, Miriam, etc.
The diplomacy is a bit odd. I already had a wicked/infamous reputation one game, and decided to threaten Yang with PBs if he didn't pay me. He only gave me 20 credits each time I threatened.
The funny thing? I didn't let him have it right away because I was curious to see what he'd do if I threatened him with even more destructive power.
He gave me 35 when I built my next PB. He still had a couple thousand, though. It was better, but I'd bankrupt myself rushing PBs before he'd give me his credits.
And from that point, Yang sort of wrote his own ending.
itdoesntfit posted 10-02-99 05:29 PM ET
I must keep this living.
UEC posted 10-02-99 09:16 PM ET
I agree with all of Nell_Smith's orginal ideas as well of must others. But I don't agree with Aredhran's idea about the 10% growth being taken away if you don't comply with the reminders. That would be just plain anoying.
President Metzler
United Emperial Confederation
AlexDePol posted 10-03-99 02:31 AM ET
...and when you keep ignoring the health warnings you eventualy get TERRAN.EXE GPF!
jimmytrick posted 10-03-99 10:26 PM ET
Hi Alex. Long time no taunt.
OldWarrior_42 posted 10-04-99 04:31 AM ET
UEC....Red's post was tongue in cheek.Trust me.
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Author	Topic: Diplomacy Ideas...
Nell_Smith	posted 04-06-99 02:29 AM ET When I offer to make Treaties or Pacts with the AI factions, they get the option of asking me to throw in a tech or some money to sweeten the deal. I'd like to be able to do the same when the AI offers me Treaties/Pacts, rather than just saying yes or no. More choice of Planetary Council proposals would be nice too, such as: 1. Persuade all the other factions to initiate sanctions against a persistently aggressive faction (whether or not they are using PBs) 2. Propose Planetary equivalent of SALT Treaty to ban the production of PBs (as already mentioned in another post) 3. Becoming Planetary Governor gives you a very significant advantage (perhaps too powerful?) and I think it would be more interesting if it were much harder to get voted in as Governor. Also, it would be more fun to make more "offices" available than just Planetary Governor, and get different benefits: for example:- Military Strategist = your troops get +1 Morale Economic Expert = you get a 10% Energy bonus Research Administrator = 10% Research Resources Adviser = 10% Minerals bonus I like the Council feature - adds a lot to realism - and I think it should be made more of
jaghar	posted 04-06-99 06:42 AM ET I'd like to see the option to try to flatter the leader of another faction. Also they should be able to do any and everything you can do as well. Like offer you gifts. Granted that for all the meanies and war mongers out there who would just take the gifts and kill the faction anyway.. there are those of us who are just too nice and we life gifts too.
MoSe	posted 04-06-99 07:12 AM ET Yes, it has been widely covered b4, and there are many good ideas about enhancing diplo options. I would like to see it completely symmetrical between humans and AIs, but maybe ther's more in it than you happen to see in few shots. For one, only after few games I was kindly offered for free some tech from newly pactie Deirdre (nope, I didn't probe her). And lately, in a tight close governor's election (in which alas I was third, due to Lal's & Empath guild votes doubling), entering the council a Lal's window popped up trying to (meagerly) bribe me for my vote. As for your 3., Nell, are you a (trance)former "Machiavelli, the Prince" player? Usually you don't get voted to offices, you get nominated, by the governor, provided you have shown the right 'credentials'. And maybe we can add sort of FAO/UNESCO attach� gaining growth bouns.
Aredhran	posted 04-06-99 07:35 AM ET Yeah. Or just call it Health Minister, or something. It would grant you +10% growth, of course, but would also pop reminders such as "Lack of sleep is bad for your health. Please save your game and turn your computer off now." or "You are hopelessely addicted to this game. Go and seek medical help" Of course, failure to comply would result in your deprivation of the 10% growth bonus... -Aredhran
Nell_Smith	posted 04-06-99 05:01 PM ET Machiavellian?? Me??? Perish the thought...hehehe No but seriously, I actually like to be a "good guy" player, honouring Pacts and stuff like that, which is one of the reasons why I was thinking it would be good to have several "offices" you could put yourself up for... obviously, if you've been honourable, the others would hopefully be more likely to vote for you, a nice benefit for not being a total warmonger. The other reason is, like I said, the fact that the single Planetary Governor office seems to give you an AWFUL lot of power, so it might be an idea to split it up into several bits so that no one person becomes stupidly powerful all in one go. Of course, one person could try to get voted into all the several offices at once!! Another one occurred to me: I've often thought that the infiltration information you get from being Governor is a little unbalanced, although for sure it's a very nice thing to have in your favour. Maybe there could be an office called, say, "Planetary Security Chief" and if you get voted into that, then you get all the infiltration information. Surely that one should be a hard one to win votes for, though! PS: Yep, I too have been offered free techs by Pact allies and have also been offered bribes in the Council votes... I LOVE that feature, especially when I receive a fat bribe from Santiago to vote the way I was gonna vote anyway!!!!!! hehehehhehe
JAMiAM	posted 04-06-99 05:07 PM ET Nell, Cool idea regarding the other offices. I've yet to play multiplayer, but just imagine all of the wheeling & dealing that would go on! Santiago wants military leader, but lets give it to Dierdre! In return, you get the Governor and I get Economics minister. JAMiAM "Keep your friends close. But, keep your enemies even closer."
MoSe	posted 04-07-99 08:21 AM ET Nell, I'm with you on many of your points, and I wasn't questioning wether your reputation is noble or ruthless. I was talking of an actual MicroProse game, 'Machiavelli, the Prince' because your idea of offices comes from that game, which deals with commerce, trading routes, two dozens of different goods with different prices in the ~40 cities on the pre-columbian map (NO americas, flat world). The 4 players start from Venice, there you find a city council with 10 senators. You have to bribe them, and eventually run for Doge (you can also buy Cardinals and run for Pope at the same time). The newly elected Doge nominates then four administering offices, and is forced to give one position to each player that owns a senator, otherwise he can also set the position to neutral. The 4 positions are General (manoeuvres the republican army, in addition to the mercenaries anyone can hire), Admiral (same as republican fleet), Road Builder (ditto) and Council Head. The trick was that you were given an annual budget (set by the Doge), and if you failed to spend at least its half each year for the task you were appointed, you just lost some reputation! Only the Council Head earned no money, but he had the power of accusing senator of treason and have them hanged (their newly appointed neutral substitutes were eager to be bribed). Not exactly a rocking game, but had its goods (ships, donkeys, camels, slanderers, arsonists, assassins, pirates, brigands storms, excommunications, plagues, crusades, build you villa...). MariOne
Nell_Smith	posted 04-08-99 09:01 PM ET MoSe, I hang my head in shame! I have never heard of MicroProse's "Machiavelli, The Prince"... though it sounds like the kind of game I'd like - plenty of diplomacy
Imran Siddiqui	posted 04-09-99 12:58 AM ET Actually Machiavelli gets a bad rep, however his major point stressed is to do things for the state! He would abhor the King that worked for his own benefit. And in this way, he is better than most people believe. Imran Siddiqui
Pubudu	posted 04-13-99 10:35 AM ET I hate to go a bit off topic with this one (not at all SMAC), but it almost fits this thread. Macciavelli is not so much reviled for his ends justify the means or fear is better than love arguments, but rather for the basis of them. The Prince only works if there is no God (You can't justify immoral actions otherwise). Thus, Macciavelli in fact argued that a Prince ought to be an atheist who pretended to be religious in order to keep his people under religion's sweet opiate. That's the main problem that most of his contemporaries had with him, anyway.
Bossman	posted 04-13-99 10:41 AM ET MoSe have you played that too! I have got that at home too, although it is a tad on the boring side it does have that diplomatic feeling that CivII gave over to the average gamer. In my view though Elite is still a good runner for the title of best game of the century, What do you say buddy?
MoSe	posted 04-13-99 11:03 AM ET Hope you're still there Bossman! Yes, in the long run seemd a bit aimless, but the slanderer's punchlines were funny! Of course it had to be played with frequent storms and pirates, and with no regard to your sinking rep. Only I got crazy (I don't claim to be omnipotent (almighty?), but I strive to be omniscient) trying to determine each turn which was the best commerce enterprise! Are you interested in a 1Meg .xls? As for Elite, still waiting the moment to check if my golden memories stand the test of time... Watcher of the Skye (watch of her all) MariOne
Bossman	posted 04-13-99 11:06 AM ET Should be there any moment, but it was reasonably large for the Hotamil system so it could take a while, go on then send me this .xls file, I hope its good. Bossman: "The best trainspotter that walked the earth."
MoSe	posted 04-13-99 11:09 AM ET Wow, is there really a town named Adelphi? Here in Italy it's a top-notch lterature-culture-essays high-quality book publisher.
itdoesntfit	posted 09-26-99 09:54 PM ET Oh my god! Do I actually see Nell contributing to the game ?
BusterMan	posted 09-28-99 03:56 PM ET Going way back to the first post, that would probably be START 3 not the long antiquated SALT -Parker
SMACTrek	posted 09-28-99 05:26 PM ET Option one. I'd like that if I could turn it off when using a bloodthirsty style to win. Yang, Miriam, etc. The diplomacy is a bit odd. I already had a wicked/infamous reputation one game, and decided to threaten Yang with PBs if he didn't pay me. He only gave me 20 credits each time I threatened. The funny thing? I didn't let him have it right away because I was curious to see what he'd do if I threatened him with even more destructive power. He gave me 35 when I built my next PB. He still had a couple thousand, though. It was better, but I'd bankrupt myself rushing PBs before he'd give me his credits. And from that point, Yang sort of wrote his own ending.
itdoesntfit	posted 10-02-99 05:29 PM ET I must keep this living.
UEC	posted 10-02-99 09:16 PM ET I agree with all of Nell_Smith's orginal ideas as well of must others. But I don't agree with Aredhran's idea about the 10% growth being taken away if you don't comply with the reminders. That would be just plain anoying. President Metzler United Emperial Confederation
AlexDePol	posted 10-03-99 02:31 AM ET ...and when you keep ignoring the health warnings you eventualy get TERRAN.EXE GPF!
jimmytrick	posted 10-03-99 10:26 PM ET Hi Alex. Long time no taunt.
OldWarrior_42	posted 10-04-99 04:31 AM ET UEC....Red's post was tongue in cheek.Trust me.