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To forest, or not to forest, that is the question
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Alpha Centauri Forums
The Game
To forest, or not to forest, that is the question
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| Author | Topic: To forest, or not to forest, that is the question |
| Travathian |
posted 04-05-99 10:00 PM ET 
How many people go for the tree farm/hybrid forest and a few boreholes for their cities versus normal farming/mining/solar collectors? I am debating this in my current game, half of my cities are one, the other half the other. I am erdicating all fungus and planting forest every other square and letting it expand. The only time I build a mine/solar/farm are in squares with the bonuses. But in my other cities I farm everything I can, and mine or solar it. |
| HGB |
posted 04-05-99 10:40 PM ET
In my last game (the Peacekeepers on Librarian level), I decided to go the full forest route with no borholes at all. Although I used farms and converters (with a few mines)to grow population in new cities, I basically planted forests and after building tree farms/hybrid forests, replaced all improvements with forests. This worked out great, resulting in large high producing cities. This also kept ecodamage at relatively low levels (even though I used Free Market) and kept the worms in relative check, and there were no warnings of gloabl warming until shortly before I planned to end the game. When the worms finally started to hit me in earnest around 2350, I bought the last two SPs and transcended. |
| eNo |
posted 04-05-99 10:49 PM ET
I use only forests because they have the advantage of spreading by themselves. Forest don't count as terraforming eco-damage. Once you have hovertanks and magtubes, you don't have to worry about forests impeding travel. |
| Technocrat |
posted 04-05-99 11:20 PM ET
I very rarely use the "only forests" option because it limits your energy production; nothing can compare to the energy production of a base whose production radius is surrounded by an unbroken ring of Echelon Mirrors. In order to combat the eco-damage generated by this, I usually maintain a Green economy, and when things get really bad, I often will change from a Eudaimoniac to Cybernetic future society. Besides, soil enrichers will generate more nutrients in rainy squares (4 nutrients) than forests do (3 nutrients with Hybrid Forest). |
| Travathian |
posted 04-06-99 12:02 AM ET
Right now I am debating whether or not to mow down all of my improvements and put forest everywhere except on the specialty squares. I am playing morgan near the uranium fields, so three of my bases are centered around it, plus I have raised the terrain considerbly and forested it over. One question though, do you get the bonus of higher elevation to energy if you dont have solar collectors? |
| ViVicdi |
posted 04-06-99 01:22 AM ET
The Rules for Choosing Forest vs. Solar: 1. The time lost planting a forest that is later changed to solar is offset by the 5 minerals received for cutting down the forest. The reverse is not true. 2. Every base must be "covered" by at least 1 sensor. Sensors are best placed in forest. Before Environmental Economics: 3. Use food supply to manage the size of your bases. 4. Try to get 2 energy from every square. 5. Try to expand as quickly as possible. After Environmental Economics: 3. Developed bases like energy. 4. Undeveloped bases like production. These rules should guide you in deciding when to sun vs. when to shade. |
| KOwl |
posted 04-06-99 02:03 PM ET
Has anyone noticed that later on when you've got the various technologies its actually better to have fungus then Forest? You get less food but more minerals/energy <the food lose is offset by the fact you have 10+ Hydro Satelittes>. And personally if a tile is rainy/rocky I farm/mine it. moist/non-rocky <I forget what the word they use is> I forest. |
| eNo |
posted 04-06-99 02:56 PM ET
KOwl, true but that late into the game you don't have much time for terraforming anyways. I usually use fungus for sea square. |
| Marslow |
posted 04-06-99 03:20 PM ET
I used to prefer lots of echelon mirrors, but the more I play the more I like the "forest and forget" or Johnny Appleseed strategy. Just plant a forest early in the game and let nature take its course. When you get ready to build your later colonies your continent will hopefully be "pre-terraformed" with forests. I find this works a lot better and faster than trying to terraform every colony you build. |
| Hammer |
posted 04-06-99 04:38 PM ET
I have quickly become a forrest junkie myself lately, although I make sure each base has at least 2 farm/solars for energy purposes. If I have a couple rainy squares I will do farm/solar, rocky is *always* mine, everything else is forrest. If I have food shortages I will use crawlers to supplement until hybrid forrest. ViVicdi: I agree that using food supply to control base growth is an important strategy. I have just learned to do that in my last game it and it works wonders for controlling drones. Travathian: you do not get elevation energy bonuses from forrest. I tested it in my latest game just last night. I think that's fair though, I would think it was bogus if it wasn't done that way. Make up for it with a mirror and/or an offsite solar farm/crawlers. eNo: I agree. In the early game, self-expanding forrests are like presents from Planet, you can disband your former after planting two forrest squares while your base is in embryonic stage and use those minerals for recycling tanks and a colony pod. Makes a huge difference in growth! I make one farm/solar, two forrests, and disband. I'll make a new one later when my base reaches 5 or 6 and needs new resources. At that point, the 1 mineral support is no biggie, but in embryonic stage, that 1 mineral is HUGE! Ain't terraforming fun. The art of growth. This game frequently blows my mind in it's depth. -=Hammer |
| Travathian |
posted 04-06-99 06:01 PM ET
Anyone totally remove all of the fungus and plant forest everywhere on their continent? I am playing the Huge map of Planet, and am on the middle continent, and damn is there a lot of fungus! I've got mostly forest, which is growing every turn somewhere, and scattered farm/solar/mines. I took someones previous post in another thread and drilled to aquifier around the big crater on my continent and damn near filled it with rivered terrain. Anyone else use terraformers to make rivers? |
| Dick Knisely |
posted 04-06-99 07:13 PM ET
The drill to aquifer is one I use a lot, pretty much whenever I can spare the time from a former to do it. The increase in food is good but the increase in energy production is just as good or better. Also doesn't count as eco-damage. |
| Travathian |
posted 04-06-99 07:54 PM ET
Oh, and if there are any doubts to how badly the autoformers are, I have some formers quite a distance away from their city of creation to help out with new bases, but not lower the resources of a newer base and cripple it. Well, I went about setting all of my formers to auto, and set it so they could only remove fungus and plant forest, and guess what? They all started moving back towards their home base to do work! And I mean, I had some clear across the continent just about, and they were moving all the way across to plant a forest in the one square that was still empty!!! As much as a hassle of micromanagement it is, I'll never use autoforming! |
| Travathian |
posted 04-06-99 10:03 PM ET
Anybody know what affects forest expansion? Rainfall? Terrain? Planet rating? I thought I read somewhere, that forest will expand over fungus, is this true? I havent tested it cause I always clear fungus asap. Not really looking for guesses, I need hard facts at this point! |
| eNo |
posted 04-06-99 10:59 PM ET
Travathian, the forest will grow into fungus squares and eleminate the fungus. However the fungus does not seem to attract forest growth. |
| Koshko |
posted 04-06-99 11:25 PM ET
I definately Forest every low level square after I build the Hybrid Forest. Before Hybrid Forest I will make forests in any flat and/or arid square. After Hybrid Forest I will change over most of the squares to forest. I will leave Solar Collecters and Ech Mirrors on the high level square though (and the Mines usually stay). If given the choice, I'd rather have 3 food and 2 mineral over 2 food and 3 mineral. First, After you build a couple of +50% Mineral Enhancements, you have more than enough minerals coming in. The more food, the higher max population. Drilling to aquafier is a must. That +1 Energy per square is great. Plus it gives me something to do with spare Formers. |
| Travathian |
posted 04-06-99 11:59 PM ET
Does drilling to aquifier always make the same river? I drilled on the edge of the giant crater (cant remember name) One on the north edge of it, the other on the southern edge. Southern one went into the crater, northern one started at the rim and went out and towards the sea. I reloaded a few times, but it kept happening. Is there some special formula? Obviously it heads to lower terrain, but is there a way to know which direction is its questionable? Also, does a river destroy any improvements other than boreholes or mines? I assume the previous two cause it would flood them, but not sure. |
| Koshko |
posted 04-07-99 12:16 AM ET
I've drilled to an aquafier directly on fully developed squares(road,farm,solar,magtube), and it didn't destroy anything. Good question. I've never paid much attention to that. I do know that the Unity Pod that makes Rivers follows the same path after a reload. |
| dbrodale |
posted 04-07-99 12:29 AM ET
Drilling to aquifer should *never* destroy improvements in any tile along the new river's course. However, drilling a new river will sometimes alter the flow of a pre-existing river (esp. if you do a multi-drill all at once in a confined area). There seems to be an underlying algorithm that determines direction and characteristics of a river's flow. You can always raise/lower terrain if you do not like what you see after drilling a river - doing so *will* alter the paths of rivers if you terraform "just right." d.brodale |
| Travathian |
posted 04-07-99 12:43 AM ET
Cool, when I get home tonight, and I am going to drill like crazy around the uranium fields. I raised the whole area around it, so most of the terrain is around the 2-3 thousand mark. Not sure if it will run rivers together or not, or if each one will take its own path, let you all know when I do. Heck, I'll probably have all my extra formers go drilling crazy tonight just to do some testing. |
| VRBones |
posted 04-07-99 06:52 AM ET
Rivers flow to the lowest of the 4 surrounding squares touching the 'drill point'. Tou can look at the exact height by bringing up the tile info (down to the metre). After it connects to this tile the process is repeated for the next 4 adjoining tiles. This will continue until it reaches a tile lower than sea level or if it 'crossed' a river (started calculation in a square where there already was a river) and entered another river hex. Rivers are dynamic, so each modification to the terrain could affect the flow of an existing river. When an elevation change occurs it starts from the river 'originator' again and recalculates it's flow. |
| Travathian |
posted 04-07-99 06:07 PM ET
Wow, I went river crazy and raising elevation everywhere. It does take a bit too long to drill to aquifier unless you really pick a good spot. I had some rivers flow a good 8 or 9 square before termination. And they make an awsome bonus to resources in the long run. Plus, I started raising elevations to alter the terrain and pick out where I wanted the river to go, helped outin planning free roads =) Now I almost want to start a new game and just try and build forests, and specific improvements, and drill to aquifiers! |
| MoSe |
posted 04-08-99 09:30 AM ET
Travathian, did you take into account the Coriolis effect flowing rivers down a crater  ?Multi-drill? Won't you get 'river overflow'? As for terraforesting, you should also mention the defensive and movement-slowing effect. I'm Civ imprinted, so when I want to forest I automatically hit 'r' first, coz there forest slows road building. When you have a Rainy Rolling Hill, starting with 2/1/(2+), with 4FT (former*turn unit) you can build a solar (2.1.2+) or a forest (1.2.1): I base my decision on the phase of development of the base. If the +1N is relevant in speeding the growth (and thus working earlier an additional tile) I'd even go for a farm (3/1/()), leaving further improvements for later. |
| Travathian |
posted 04-08-99 09:00 PM ET
Well, I started a new game as the Gaians, and its the biggest map you can play, lots of rain, lots of weathering, lots of native life forms. I've decided on the following strategy: Remove fungus from my entire island (which I am alone) except around the border. Have at least a two tile border of fungus around the edges, and keep my army of mind worm boils keeping guard, along with spotted sensors. |
| MoSe |
posted 04-12-99 12:08 PM ET
Sorry, but I didn't get why should you farm the drier areas. These are exactly the first candy dates for foresting. 1. you get the same food, but more minerals (and energy if you do not solar) 2. you have to wait a long before Enrichers, and they have to be done tile by tile, while once you get Hybrid Forest you get 3 Nutrients at once for all tiles. I would consider (and that has yet to be seen) not to forest arid areas only if rolling & >3000 m high & in need for energy. Please explain me your point. |
| umbra1 |
posted 04-12-99 12:23 PM ET
Myself, I forest. It's quicker than having your formers perform multiple terraforms and it grows on its own. |
| ViVicdi |
posted 04-17-99 01:20 AM ET
I *LOVE* aquifers, especially on flat terrain far from water. A river in that kind of terrain will meander all over the place! My second favorite place for an aquifer is, of course, on top of a peak -- or on the sides. On top, you get more bang for the buck, but on the sides you have more control over where the river flows. ("Downhill" is not a variable direction on the side of a mountain ...) Another trick: "Raise Terrain" on a river-coast and get more river real estate! The funniest thing about rivers is that they'll empty into a thermal borehole like it was a drainpipe. I imagine it makes a sort of flushing sound ... |
| Koshko |
posted 04-17-99 01:36 AM ET
If you are the Gaians, then the Fungus is better due to the +1 Nutrient per Fungal Square. You won't get the +1 Energy underneath Fungus. With the Algorithm, you can get the 'Funky Ring River'. The 'Funky Ring River' is a 4 square river that loops into itself. |
| cousLee |
posted 04-17-99 03:15 AM ET
(unless i missed it in the above posts) rivers are wonderfull. no, they don't destroy boreholes, matter of fact, I had a borehole on the coast, drilled to aquifer on a peak some 8 tiles away, the river ran through it, gave me 6 mineral, 7 energy.  I have gotten the "funky ring river" with out the algorithm. (HS Algorithm has nothing to do with rivers anyway). I landmark it when that happens as the "Donut Shop". |
| Eman |
posted 04-19-99 01:11 PM ET
Lately I have been going for forest-only. Then I build Tree Farm and Hybrid forest and I grow GROW *GROW*! The psych and energy bonuses go great with Morgan. In the mid-late game I find that a base surrounded by forest gives me all the minerals I need, so I build nothing else except the odd borehole and lots of sensors and roads. This means I don't need as many farmers, and they get their work done quicker than the usual farm/solar combo. Food is a problem for bases in the early going, so I try to keep my bases near the coast so I can plant some kelp farms and get them over the hump until Tree Farm arrives; both my forests and kelp spread all over the place and are ready for my bases when they grow, so my formers are elsewhere building roads and sensors. I haven't built aquifers but I can see where that would be a nice addition. |
| ViVicdi |
posted 04-19-99 05:18 PM ET
I've had a river STOP when it hit a borehole. That's what a meant by "drain". The river empties into the hole. But yeah, you do get an extra point of energy from the borehole. Will a river flow THROUGH a borehole? |
| 1212 |
posted 04-20-99 01:26 AM ET
Do any of you utilize the 4 boreholes in the corners and 4 condenser farms inbetween strategy around your city |
| cousLee |
posted 04-20-99 01:32 AM ET
ViV, you may be correct, as I stated, my BH was on the coast, so I didn't notice if it went "through" or not. hmm, will have to check next time. have you built a BH on a river tile that is not on the coast? |
| cousLee |
posted 04-21-99 05:26 AM ET
To forest of not to forest. I landed on a large continent with morgan to my south, and garland crater to the north. this is on a large map, medium setting land mass, low erosion, rare lifeforms, TI. I tried the suggested methods and things went ok... for a while. I ran into Morgan early, which supprized me as I usually end up missing early contact (bad sense of direction). We did the treaty of a while, about 40 or so turns. He was able to expand in both directions along the coast, building 1 base to the north, and 1 to the east. He tried to encroach my terr, but I was able to beat him to the punch each time, moving my border closer to his, which made his colony pod have to back-track. Once, I was only able to beat him by 1 turn (he had his CP in the perfect position to build on his next turn, and I am sure he would have. it was just on his side of the border). To the west of Morgan Industries was a small Island, just the right size for 1 base, which he built. 2 spot islands also connected this (continuing west) to the uranium flats. that island has an elevated section on the west side, and the UF at 300-600 feet. both areas are the same size. (one fair size box island). well, Morgan built the merchant exchange while I continued to claim the crater. Morgan was pacted with me by this time (treaty was about 6-8 turns), and my foot hold was established. he had managed to build 6 bases, whereas I had about 10 bases. I got Centauri tech from a pod, and my formers were getting started making the cordoury. I took my lone probe team, and stole tech from morgan, tried to frame UoP, which failed, but I did get some tech. (probe lost).(Morgan and I were at vendetta with UoP anyway). he had just completed the SP and i moved my impact rover onto one of his roads and waited 1 turn. By now, periphilon(sp?) is set to start in 2 turns, and my foresting former army has done thier job, and are working on other pressing matters (fungus). I have about 16 bases, with about half breaking the 15 mineral barrier. The UoP surrendered after losing 1 base. he was at war with everyone, and would have been crushed with me moving in from his only "peacefull" border. he gave me 4 or so techs, which abought me up to speed with the other factions tech wise. The Uop was getting beaten on pretty bad by the other factions, I sent so units in to help, which delayed the Spartans and the Hive for a few turns and Zak was able to get some troops over to take over. With his forces fighting the Spartan/Hive front, Deirdre was able to come in from the north and capture 2 UoP bases, cutting the faction in two. things for Zak look bad. During this time I had been battling worms and an occasional invasion by the PK,Gaians and Hive over near the crater. Keeping the supply transports stocked (was losing 1-2 per turn) and trying to squeeze in some buildings kept my core cities busy. I have adequate garrisons, but have to keep replacing them as the Hive was first with the jets and was doing regular runs. (him and his damn AAA transports keeping me busy). all the fighting on my continent had kept me from building an invasion force, and tech has really slowed down by now. i can't get any probe teams near the other factions, due to the distance involved, and the AI always destroying my probe teams before i can get near thier bases. Zak has been giving me some techs, but neither of us are able to stop the slow encroach of his lines, as the Spartans/Hive are advancing, and the Gaian transport full of chaos marines are begining to spread. they are still mostly in one area, but it is a huge force, since the Gaians/Hive/Spartans have met in the middle for repairs in the 2 captured UoP cities. guess who gets missle tech (captured a Spartan base which allowed a tech switch to orbital with just a few turns to go). The Gaians get it right after me as well. well, I cashed in the old supplys I was using to build a Fusion PB, and took a turn to get in withing range of the battlefield. I get a rover over near a pod, and try for a hat-trick. I lost 2 minerals switching production to a PB, but it was worth it as it worked. got the "minerals to complete" message. So now I have 1PB in range, and 1 available on the next turn. my core cities are still busy fighting the regular invasions from the PKs and Gaians, the Spartans have taken to former sniping, and the Hive to supply sniping with his jets. my damn sam missle needlejets keep losing, as does my AAA 1-3-1*2 garrisons, and 3-1*2 supplys that (use) to pepper the landscape. I am able to maintain my bases, but still not able to get the invasion force made. This usually does not happen this way for me. buy this point in the game, It is usually over for the other factions with a conquest victory in site. I do not normally use the forest everywhere strat, but it sounded interesting and I wanted to try it. So, to answer the question, I say NOT to forest. for I have tasted the fungus, BTW, this is the same game I captured the missle bug on. |
| MoSe |
posted 04-21-99 07:32 AM ET
Nice detailed report, cousin. At first look I fail to see the relation between your foresting strategy and the developing of your position in the game. Maybe it was only coincidence. BTW, you forgot to state it, I assume you were playing as TLB .Do you mean that you have good industrial production but you're forced to produce less effective units with all those minerals because forest caused relative lack of growth and tech discovey? Besides forests, one thing I can't understand is why spend TF time mining rocky areas, you get some extra minerals but no growth, no advantages from TreeFarm or HybridF. Apart exceptional rocky arid low mineral bonus tiles, I always level rocks when I have TF spare time, and the forest or farm them depending on raininess and altitude. If I need minerals Boreholes are overall more effort effective than mining rocks (apart 7minerals tiles as I said). How is it playing an atheist despot after so many games defending the faith? |
| Aredhran |
posted 04-21-99 07:46 AM ET
MoSe, you should shut up, before the good Chairman takes offense and nerve-staples your "turbaned a**" (your words )CMN |
| MoSe |
posted 04-21-99 08:03 AM ET
LOL (LaL should I say). (maybe we're getting too unpolitely cryptic, as a newbie I hated reading such off-topic private wink-references) |
| cousLee |
posted 04-21-99 02:05 PM ET
That is the point I was trying to make. It's not the limited growth as much as the limited energy. yes, forests are a great improvement, but I was trying the forest everywhere/supply strat in the game. and yes, i am playing the Believers. I use stacked formers, so the mine improvement is not a big waste of terraforming time. I use supply transports to work mines. when using supplys to work forest, you only get the 2minerals. count 2 terrain. both forest with supply = 4 minerals, where as 1 mine and the other farm/solar gives you much more. the supply gets the terrain bonus (yea, same as forest) and you only need 1. the time/minerals spent building all those supplys, could have been spent building the invasion force. further, when Yangs wobbly jets start taking out the supplys, the bases benefiting from the forest/supply combo are hindered in production. one of my bases that was producing 18 surplus, had it's production halved after the attack. this sux when your half way through a proto construction, or other expensive endeavor. way too much energy to complete, and now it's going to take twice as long to complete. I do have the boreholes working, but the game is at a point where it is hard to get the momentum to build extra troops. (constantly having to re-make supplys, and garrisons) I think the 2 PBs will be enough to turn the tide of the war. normally, I would just let the Hive/Spartan/Gaian force decimate the UoP and mop up his last base to get the monument tile. but because of the tech limitations, A strong UoP would benefit the cause. I could use the PBs to erase the Hive, but the UoP would not survive the current invation of their land mass. The command nexus will fall to 1 PB, the borehole cluster will die with the other, if I choose to use my PBs. BTW, Hive and Gaians as also building PBs. Must strike first... |
| cousLee |
posted 04-21-99 02:19 PM ET
You are right, there is no relation between the forresting and position developement, but if all i posted was "I tried your strat, I think it sux" people would have asked why. the only relation, is needing to understand WHY I state so. When a faction can reach across the water and cripple your production, patrol the water between the continents to keep your forces at bay, the best you can do is maintain when using this strat. the water channel between the continents (in this game) is controlled by the Hive/Spartan navys. There you go, quoteing unconfirmed reports again. I will hold comment about the despot until after a few more turns. the -1 energy caught me off-guard. I thought the game screwed up when there was no energy in the base tile. duh. |
| bene4 |
posted 04-21-99 02:37 PM ET
forests are for builders, and for preplanning. Playing on a large map, it's worth sending a spare former (with armor, if possible) out early on to plant forest in potential base areas. Then, when your coloninsts show up, you have a fungus free area with elevation/precipitation independant resources that can be fine tuned. It's better to make a forest into a farm than an empty square (+5 minerals). I'd rather have forest than arid and flat. |
| cousLee |
posted 04-21-99 02:55 PM ET
That is my point. (sorry if I was not clear). some have suggested using forest and supply everywhere, I was trying their advice. You make yourself vulnerable by relying on supply transports for minerals from forests. |
| Goobmeister |
posted 04-22-99 02:14 AM ET
Can't see the Forest for the Trees? Going up! Goob |
| ViVicdi |
posted 04-22-99 02:33 AM ET
Developed bases like energy. Undeveloped bases like production. |
| Goobmeister |
posted 04-22-99 02:35 AM ET
Hey, ViVicdi, hows the war going? Goob |
| ViVicdi |
posted 04-22-99 11:10 PM ET
Chairman Yang's energy production is high enough now for 3 turns per tech, although he's no Morgan, as you are well aware. I just changed from "Planned" to "Green" because the UoP bases I conquered are big enough and far enough away that the change from 0 to +1 efficiency yields an additional 80 energy (40 credits / 40 research). I picked up MMI 6 turns ago, and I have built a huge swarm of Shard Choppers and I'm moving them into position for a major new offensive. After I take care of Miriam I will move against Lal and win a Diplomatic Victory by the sheer weight of my population. I've almost got the population now to get Governor. If you mean our PBEM game, I killed some mindworms. (Whoopie! 10 bucks!) |
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