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Author Topic:   The chopper: the game's best unit?

licha posted 03-30-99 11:10 AM ET
The helicopter units are my favorite and arguably the BEST units in the game. Why?
Ever since CivII I've been wondering why there couldn't be an air unit that could attack multiple times AND not have to return to base in the same turn. No such unit existed in CivII. Now it does in SMAC, and no other air unit can boast BOTH of these two qualities.
It's especially good against enemy cities fortified with millions of weak garrison units, and it doesn't sit around in the air waiting to be shot down the next turn. Anyone agree?
licha posted 03-30-99 11:19 AM ET
Addendum:
To that note, why can't there be other air units that can still move after attacking, even if they do have to come back to a city/airbase the next turn? That way, even if you were only able to attack one other unit that turn, you could at least attempt to put yourself in a strategic location before it's the AI's turn. One way "abuse" (killing tons of bombers with one fighter in the same turn) could be prevented is by NOT equating number of moves with number of attacks allowed per turn. Just an idea. In any case, I still like the choppers.
Fanti posted 03-30-99 12:01 PM ET
Choppers are very effective weapons in the middle game, but even not totally without distance penalties, cause every round that ends not in a city or an airfield it gets some damage.
Better is the airfortress in the last third of the game which has NO range penalties.
Even though planetbusters are very effective in multiplayer games, but only if your own city defense could stand the following mindworm attacks.
But the best unit is the flying swarm of chiron with no range penalties and even small penalties if you attack enemy cities.
p.s.: I hope that the german version of SMAC3.0 will come soon. ;-)
Jimmy posted 03-30-99 12:15 PM ET
What about the gravship? It has huge range, can take a base, is very powerful with the weapons you have and the singularity reactor make relatively cheap. (just to name a few)
I think the gravship is the best unit.
player2 posted 03-30-99 12:29 PM ET
I would say that the 'copters are not arguably the best unit; they ARE the best unit, no question.
Actually, I think its more correct to say that copters are the 'most unbalanced' unit. They are very inexpensive, have a very long range, and virtually infinite offensive strength due to their multiple attack capability. For this reason, I do not build copters in any of my games. It is too easy to beat up on the AI with these units, even on the highest levels. Also, I reccommend that MP games ban the use of 'copters simply to make military strategy require more thought (its much easier to build a fleet of choppers to crush your enemys than to build an integrated land/sea/air force) This unit was a bad move on Firaxis's part, in my opinion.
licha posted 03-30-99 04:45 PM ET
player2, you make a good point. Again, for those reasons, it makes sense to separate how many times a unit can attack and their movement points. What would be fair is something like an air unit can use 1/3 of its movement points for attacking, or whatever fraction would balance things out. But neither Civ nor SMAC have such a rule.
Re: Jimmy-- Problem with gravships is that it still can only attack once per turn and it has to be a sitting duck until the next turn.
CyberSpyder posted 03-30-99 08:46 PM ET
Is it a sitting duck with psi armor and morale upgrade? Especially when you have dream twister and whatever that other one is. Can the chopper cross 25 squares and SURVIVE? The gravship can, and in less than 2 turns. The gravship is most definately the most powerful unit, and I can't wait to open up a can of whoop-ass on your choppers with Clean Blink Singularity Deathspheres with Stasis Fields.
PrinceBimz posted 03-30-99 09:13 PM ET
I think all units have their own strengths and weaknesses. Is the Chopper or Gravship the best? I don't know, what does it have on it and what are you using it for? These are air units so what if the cities are defended by AAA units or fighters and SAM units?
Lets see...here come the choppers attacking my base and beating every garrison unit in there. Ok now here come my cheap fighters from my offshore carrier to down all of the hovering choppers. Actually, you can attack them with SAM ground units or a ship and shoot those things down!
Fragboy posted 03-31-99 12:30 AM ET
You guys didn't point out the best unit yet! It is: A gravship with singularity laser and engine, stasis generator, antigrav struts, nerve gas pods, and built in a city with bioenhancement center and aerospace complex. It equals instant death to almost anything. Also, the same stuff on a chopper, but on a sub carrier, is even better.
Giant Squid posted 03-31-99 12:32 AM ET
I prefer Locusts. They can destroy most stuff without trance capability, have no range limit, and best of all, they capture cities.
Singularity Planet Busters are more fun, though
<=O=E
The Doc posted 03-31-99 01:00 AM ET
At first I didn't think I'd like the chopper at all, but now I say give me the chopper over the gravship any day. Let's assume weapon, reactor, etc are all maxed out on both and they have the same special abilities. Ok, now they're equal in strength and per-turn movement. So you have to choose between one that can capture cities, doesn't have to land, and can attack once per turn (and then stops), vs. one that can't capture cities, has to land (realistically speaking) every 3rd turn or earlier, but can attack up to 18 times or can attack a few times and retreat back into a friendly city. Because of this ability, it wouldn't even need any armor really. Build one. Try it. You'll like it.
micje posted 03-31-99 04:11 AM ET
Its' the COMBINATION of copters and gravships that is especially deadly. You need only a couple of gravships with a horde of copters to wipe out a technologically backward continent.
But air power is pretty useless when the AI has multiple AAA neutronium infantry in bases with aerospace complex. I'm not even speaking of tachyon fields. Even my Blink Bombers have problems then, and the extra attacks of copters is useless because you won't survive 2 attacks. I use Blink Tanks and Elite Shock Troops (Blink, anti-grav) to destroy that kind of infantry.
borghese posted 03-31-99 05:55 AM ET
i think choppers are the better weapon mainly because they appear much earlier than gravships and therefore have much more bearing on middle game conflicts which are usually more evenly balanced. gravships are like the super units designed at the end of wwii. how much did german me 262 jets, soviet js-ii tanks or british meteor jets really affect the outcome of the war? usually by the time i aquire gravships the other factions are just hanging on by their teeth to stay alive. choppers and drop troops are a wicked combination. overall though i doo think the chopper is too powerful- how does a chopper wipe out multiple aircraft anyway? i can't see an apache killing several f-16's in real life!
MoSe posted 03-31-99 06:34 AM ET
I tried locusts and choppers very little,
but I'd say I prefer the formers .
Player2: about banning copters in MP, how would you do Mplaying against yourself with copters? Will you win against yourself or will you win against yourself? Of course you will crush yourself with copters, coz you're way too strong with copters, and you'll be helpless against your copters! Oh, maybe you could try using some copters too? I hated when I used to play chess against myself: I always lost! Chess is clearly an unbalanced game. (hope I wasn't nasty, I would rank myself harmless indeed).
And "No_such_unit_existed_in_CivII" licha, maybe I'm living in my dreams, but I remember I used Helicopters in CivII, didn't they come along with paratroopers in 'Combined Warfare (or was it Arms)'?
Wiping out that idiotic grin off my face, I may interpret that player2 point is that copters prune the complexity of the game as it all reduces down to a copter rush, the first who gets them wins. Can't tell because I've really little experience on it, but as it seems that this matter isn't yet well agreed on, guess it will be worth to check out in MP who did get it right.
Il mondo � bello perch� � Mario
Fiannaidh posted 03-31-99 09:00 AM ET
I like probe teams.
MikeH II posted 03-31-99 09:16 AM ET
I like probing.
licha posted 03-31-99 11:09 AM ET
MoSe: No, there really wasn't such a unit in CivII. There were no air units that could attack multiple times and not have to return to base. Helicopters in CivII could only attack once and then its turn ended. Fighters could attack multiple times but then had to return the same turn, effectively halving its range. SMAC's choppers have the best of both worlds.
MoSe posted 03-31-99 12:17 PM ET
I apologize, licha.
You well deserve it.
I took the (heli)copter label in my thoughts and mis-linked your *such* to it, instead of to what you actually wrote.
I realize just now that I haven't played any more CivII since I installed SMAC (revealing prise-de-conscience, isn't it?).
So I'm so SMAC brainwashed now to the extent I have to check back a couple of Civ things, coz maybe I'm transferring new concepts to old game:
-multiple MP units could well bring multiple attacks, or move after if they had spare MPs left, couldn't they?
-air units: bombers had 1 bombing run, fighters could bring multiple attacks, I thought to remember that helicopters behaved like other units, and not like bombers in that sense.
Thanx for the fruitful interaction
MariOne
MoSe posted 03-31-99 12:24 PM ET
Player2 (do you mean 2nd player or player too?),
hope you didn't take it personally!
I'd like to read your reply.
outermost nervepath posted 04-01-99 06:32 PM ET
I admit it. I never use choppers because the 3D graphics are so fabulously stupid.
Gravships of various flavors are unstoppable anyway. A pile of gravships followed up by a pack of locusts is pretty much a roving end-of-game cataclysm.
micje posted 04-01-99 09:00 PM ET
But Civ Helicopters could occupy cities, and SMAC helicopters can't.
licha posted 04-02-99 12:16 AM ET
outermost: I agree the rotor rotation is pretty ugly (they should have it continuously rotate when the unit is selected).
Why does everyone keep saying the gravships are so powerful or so fast? The other 2 air chassis with the same weapon/armor/reactor would be just as powerful, so I don't quite get it.
Since gravships are supposed to be newer technology, I think they should make it at least as good as the choppers (the multiple attack capability).
micje: you are right about the CivII chopper's ability to take cities. That ability given to SMAC's choppers would make these units even more unbalanced, so I'm glad they can't.
Pique posted 04-02-99 12:44 AM ET
The chopper is by FAR the strongest unit in the game. In the beginning make a beeline for shard choppers and drop pods.
If you survive to get 'em, there is no reason for the game to keep going long enough to aquire gravships. You've won.
Pique
Koshko posted 04-02-99 01:02 AM ET
I've never really ran into an occurence where I needed extensive air warfare. Just casual with troop carrying. I like the Locusts, particularly at high levels with Dream Twister (for the bonus) and Neural Amplifier (so they can't nullify the bonus).
cousLee posted 04-02-99 01:27 AM ET
WAAAAAAA. the Coper is the best, sorry. as for grav ships??what are those. I have yet to see one. i get conquest long before those appear (AI or myown) Couldn't even tell you what they look like. it's like the posts regarding Yang PBing someone so bad they get nightsweats. HA, never has happened to me. simply put, I get choppers, you get a free trip to Dismal Land to sing "It's was a small world afterall".
(and yes, I play TI so don't give me that crap try a harder level)(large planet,TB)
Bdot posted 04-02-99 10:05 AM ET
SMAC chopters are probably the worst units in game. CIV chopters were real good though.
Faithkills posted 04-02-99 12:00 PM ET
As Pique so eloquently put it, choppers can win the game in their own right. q.e.d. they are a degenerate unit that can ruin the game if you are the type to use every possible edge to your advantage. (and you must be to survive to this point if you play TI, I still lose regularly playing TI) But like Pique says once you get these first and have time to build them it's frequently a slide. So in effect it does ruin the game after that point. To mitigate this I always play blind, so I don't always get them when I could use them, so that's what makes it not ruin it for me... but if you don't play blind, I could see getting bored soon after getting choppers.
For MP it's not "unbalanced" because everyone can get them, but it does make for less interesting games if there's one prime tactic. (generalization, I haven't played SMAC MP yet)
All in all IMHO choppers should probably only get one attack and they would still be extraordinarily useful. Perhaps if they took away multiple attacks they could also take away the end turn damage. (not sure if that wouldn't be too powerful)
Plus the fact is, in reality the fabulous military utility of choppers is air assault units. Gunships have their use, but in general are entirely too vulnerable. Anything a gunship can do, a tactical bomber ("fighter/bomber") can do far better and with less risk. All choppers should have enormous penalties when being attacked by fighters.
BTW I haven't looked, is this in a txt file that we can change?
FK
Khan Singh posted 04-02-99 12:13 PM ET
How about this for a fix?
Choppers and all other air units and conventional missiles could not actually kill units, they could only reduce them to one power point (like artillery). This would not apply to gravships which are a very late game tech and should therefore have an advantage.
This would greatly increase the relative importance of ground units and would encourage alternative tactics. Airpower would still be very important, but would no longer be absolutely predominate. It also seems more realistic.
This would, of course, be a major change in the game, and I can't find any way to do it with the text files. But IMO it would make the game more realistic and interesting.
Yes? No?
Pique posted 04-02-99 12:26 PM ET
Eloquence is not my forte, so I will once again try to (be forced to?) keep this simple.
I lose TI games regularly too, but never after I have the helo chassis.
What I would do to them if I could: Choppers can kill units from two squares away, but only one per turn, like every other unit in the game. They get SEVERE penalties when attacking/being attacked by needlejets.
Everything else player2, borghese, and Faithkills said.
Pique
secret agent man posted 04-02-99 01:37 PM ET
I would just like to point out one thing: In close-range air combat (say, within 2 naut. mi.) an attack helicopter is not at a disadvantage against fighter jets. Past real-life combat statistics from the USAF actually put the odds at roughly 50-50. The jets obviously have the speed (and definite advantage from long range) but the AH's have the manueverability. My point is, there should be no combat modifiers in SMAC when a copter fights a needlejet.
ViVicdi posted 04-02-99 07:40 PM ET
Some of my thoughts on the Chopper:
It is the best unit in the game, because of its multiple attack capability. HOWEVER, this capability is proportionally dependent upon your weapon tech and your opponent's armor. Against heavily-fortified targets multiple attack capability is moot.
The copter is best used in conjunction with another mobile occupying unit: Drop, Locust, Gravship, whatever.
It is, on balance, not unbalanced because it has to land on a base or take damage between turns and can't conquer bases.
There IS a problem with the Copter, though -- it obsoletes the Needlejet. To be sure the Hovertank obsoletes the Rover, but look at how far apart they are on the tech tree. Except for some very extreme specific circumstances (aerial blockade, long range defense-recon) the Needlejet is at best no better than the Copter and at worst an obsolete useless vulnerable clunker -- usually within a dozen turns!
I agree with those of you who have said that the Copter should not equal the Needlejet in air combat. The solution seems simple -- take away "Air Superiority" from the Copter outright and give the Needlejet multiple attacks during air-to-air combat.
This may seem like an identical situation to simply having air defense Copters, but it would allow strong air defense before MMI AND keep the Needlejets in the game.
Faithkills posted 04-05-99 12:04 PM ET
Secret Agent Man, sure if you put a gunship (properly armed) and a fighter of similar generation and ordinance in the sky at close proximity and say go to it boys then it's a closer match. But heck then why not put the gunship in the air and the fighter on the ground. Heck put the gunship in the air and the fighter pilot running to his plane.
Sure a missile doesn't care too much what platform it was launched from, but the close range situation is not going to be the one person with the v advantage is going to choose.
Granted the gunship can take better advantage of terrain features and fly noe, but come on... in smac obviously both sides have at least a general location for each other. If one were ordered to engage the other, which would you rather pilot?
Vivicdi, take away the ability of choppers to have the air superiority ability... that's might be an option. But as Secret Agent Man implied, there's no reason gunships can't mount aam's, so it's has a realism problem. I think probably just take away multiple attacks. To be honest I'm not sure that the game wouldn't be better without multiple attacks for any unit.
FK
Krushala posted 09-06-99 08:29 PM ET
yep
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Author	Topic: The chopper: the game's best unit?
licha	posted 03-30-99 11:10 AM ET The helicopter units are my favorite and arguably the BEST units in the game. Why? Ever since CivII I've been wondering why there couldn't be an air unit that could attack multiple times AND not have to return to base in the same turn. No such unit existed in CivII. Now it does in SMAC, and no other air unit can boast BOTH of these two qualities. It's especially good against enemy cities fortified with millions of weak garrison units, and it doesn't sit around in the air waiting to be shot down the next turn. Anyone agree?
licha	posted 03-30-99 11:19 AM ET Addendum: To that note, why can't there be other air units that can still move after attacking, even if they do have to come back to a city/airbase the next turn? That way, even if you were only able to attack one other unit that turn, you could at least attempt to put yourself in a strategic location before it's the AI's turn. One way "abuse" (killing tons of bombers with one fighter in the same turn) could be prevented is by NOT equating number of moves with number of attacks allowed per turn. Just an idea. In any case, I still like the choppers.
Fanti	posted 03-30-99 12:01 PM ET Choppers are very effective weapons in the middle game, but even not totally without distance penalties, cause every round that ends not in a city or an airfield it gets some damage. Better is the airfortress in the last third of the game which has NO range penalties. Even though planetbusters are very effective in multiplayer games, but only if your own city defense could stand the following mindworm attacks. But the best unit is the flying swarm of chiron with no range penalties and even small penalties if you attack enemy cities. p.s.: I hope that the german version of SMAC3.0 will come soon. ;-)
Jimmy	posted 03-30-99 12:15 PM ET What about the gravship? It has huge range, can take a base, is very powerful with the weapons you have and the singularity reactor make relatively cheap. (just to name a few) I think the gravship is the best unit.
player2	posted 03-30-99 12:29 PM ET I would say that the 'copters are not arguably the best unit; they ARE the best unit, no question. Actually, I think its more correct to say that copters are the 'most unbalanced' unit. They are very inexpensive, have a very long range, and virtually infinite offensive strength due to their multiple attack capability. For this reason, I do not build copters in any of my games. It is too easy to beat up on the AI with these units, even on the highest levels. Also, I reccommend that MP games ban the use of 'copters simply to make military strategy require more thought (its much easier to build a fleet of choppers to crush your enemys than to build an integrated land/sea/air force) This unit was a bad move on Firaxis's part, in my opinion.
licha	posted 03-30-99 04:45 PM ET player2, you make a good point. Again, for those reasons, it makes sense to separate how many times a unit can attack and their movement points. What would be fair is something like an air unit can use 1/3 of its movement points for attacking, or whatever fraction would balance things out. But neither Civ nor SMAC have such a rule. Re: Jimmy-- Problem with gravships is that it still can only attack once per turn and it has to be a sitting duck until the next turn.
CyberSpyder	posted 03-30-99 08:46 PM ET Is it a sitting duck with psi armor and morale upgrade? Especially when you have dream twister and whatever that other one is. Can the chopper cross 25 squares and SURVIVE? The gravship can, and in less than 2 turns. The gravship is most definately the most powerful unit, and I can't wait to open up a can of whoop-ass on your choppers with Clean Blink Singularity Deathspheres with Stasis Fields.
PrinceBimz	posted 03-30-99 09:13 PM ET I think all units have their own strengths and weaknesses. Is the Chopper or Gravship the best? I don't know, what does it have on it and what are you using it for? These are air units so what if the cities are defended by AAA units or fighters and SAM units? Lets see...here come the choppers attacking my base and beating every garrison unit in there. Ok now here come my cheap fighters from my offshore carrier to down all of the hovering choppers. Actually, you can attack them with SAM ground units or a ship and shoot those things down!
Fragboy	posted 03-31-99 12:30 AM ET You guys didn't point out the best unit yet! It is: A gravship with singularity laser and engine, stasis generator, antigrav struts, nerve gas pods, and built in a city with bioenhancement center and aerospace complex. It equals instant death to almost anything. Also, the same stuff on a chopper, but on a sub carrier, is even better.
Giant Squid	posted 03-31-99 12:32 AM ET I prefer Locusts. They can destroy most stuff without trance capability, have no range limit, and best of all, they capture cities. Singularity Planet Busters are more fun, though <=O=E
The Doc	posted 03-31-99 01:00 AM ET At first I didn't think I'd like the chopper at all, but now I say give me the chopper over the gravship any day. Let's assume weapon, reactor, etc are all maxed out on both and they have the same special abilities. Ok, now they're equal in strength and per-turn movement. So you have to choose between one that can capture cities, doesn't have to land, and can attack once per turn (and then stops), vs. one that can't capture cities, has to land (realistically speaking) every 3rd turn or earlier, but can attack up to 18 times or can attack a few times and retreat back into a friendly city. Because of this ability, it wouldn't even need any armor really. Build one. Try it. You'll like it.
micje	posted 03-31-99 04:11 AM ET Its' the COMBINATION of copters and gravships that is especially deadly. You need only a couple of gravships with a horde of copters to wipe out a technologically backward continent. But air power is pretty useless when the AI has multiple AAA neutronium infantry in bases with aerospace complex. I'm not even speaking of tachyon fields. Even my Blink Bombers have problems then, and the extra attacks of copters is useless because you won't survive 2 attacks. I use Blink Tanks and Elite Shock Troops (Blink, anti-grav) to destroy that kind of infantry.
borghese	posted 03-31-99 05:55 AM ET i think choppers are the better weapon mainly because they appear much earlier than gravships and therefore have much more bearing on middle game conflicts which are usually more evenly balanced. gravships are like the super units designed at the end of wwii. how much did german me 262 jets, soviet js-ii tanks or british meteor jets really affect the outcome of the war? usually by the time i aquire gravships the other factions are just hanging on by their teeth to stay alive. choppers and drop troops are a wicked combination. overall though i doo think the chopper is too powerful- how does a chopper wipe out multiple aircraft anyway? i can't see an apache killing several f-16's in real life!
MoSe	posted 03-31-99 06:34 AM ET I tried locusts and choppers very little, but I'd say I prefer the formers . Player2: about banning copters in MP, how would you do Mplaying against yourself with copters? Will you win against yourself or will you win against yourself? Of course you will crush yourself with copters, coz you're way too strong with copters, and you'll be helpless against your copters! Oh, maybe you could try using some copters too? I hated when I used to play chess against myself: I always lost! Chess is clearly an unbalanced game. (hope I wasn't nasty, I would rank myself harmless indeed). And "No_such_unit_existed_in_CivII" licha, maybe I'm living in my dreams, but I remember I used Helicopters in CivII, didn't they come along with paratroopers in 'Combined Warfare (or was it Arms)'? Wiping out that idiotic grin off my face, I may interpret that player2 point is that copters prune the complexity of the game as it all reduces down to a copter rush, the first who gets them wins. Can't tell because I've really little experience on it, but as it seems that this matter isn't yet well agreed on, guess it will be worth to check out in MP who did get it right. Il mondo � bello perch� � Mario
Fiannaidh	posted 03-31-99 09:00 AM ET I like probe teams.
MikeH II	posted 03-31-99 09:16 AM ET I like probing.
licha	posted 03-31-99 11:09 AM ET MoSe: No, there really wasn't such a unit in CivII. There were no air units that could attack multiple times and not have to return to base. Helicopters in CivII could only attack once and then its turn ended. Fighters could attack multiple times but then had to return the same turn, effectively halving its range. SMAC's choppers have the best of both worlds.
MoSe	posted 03-31-99 12:17 PM ET I apologize, licha. You well deserve it. I took the (heli)copter label in my thoughts and mis-linked your such to it, instead of to what you actually wrote. I realize just now that I haven't played any more CivII since I installed SMAC (revealing prise-de-conscience, isn't it?). So I'm so SMAC brainwashed now to the extent I have to check back a couple of Civ things, coz maybe I'm transferring new concepts to old game: -multiple MP units could well bring multiple attacks, or move after if they had spare MPs left, couldn't they? -air units: bombers had 1 bombing run, fighters could bring multiple attacks, I thought to remember that helicopters behaved like other units, and not like bombers in that sense. Thanx for the fruitful interaction MariOne
MoSe	posted 03-31-99 12:24 PM ET Player2 (do you mean 2nd player or player too?), hope you didn't take it personally! I'd like to read your reply.
outermost nervepath	posted 04-01-99 06:32 PM ET I admit it. I never use choppers because the 3D graphics are so fabulously stupid. Gravships of various flavors are unstoppable anyway. A pile of gravships followed up by a pack of locusts is pretty much a roving end-of-game cataclysm.
micje	posted 04-01-99 09:00 PM ET But Civ Helicopters could occupy cities, and SMAC helicopters can't.
licha	posted 04-02-99 12:16 AM ET outermost: I agree the rotor rotation is pretty ugly (they should have it continuously rotate when the unit is selected). Why does everyone keep saying the gravships are so powerful or so fast? The other 2 air chassis with the same weapon/armor/reactor would be just as powerful, so I don't quite get it. Since gravships are supposed to be newer technology, I think they should make it at least as good as the choppers (the multiple attack capability). micje: you are right about the CivII chopper's ability to take cities. That ability given to SMAC's choppers would make these units even more unbalanced, so I'm glad they can't.
Pique	posted 04-02-99 12:44 AM ET The chopper is by FAR the strongest unit in the game. In the beginning make a beeline for shard choppers and drop pods. If you survive to get 'em, there is no reason for the game to keep going long enough to aquire gravships. You've won. Pique
Koshko	posted 04-02-99 01:02 AM ET I've never really ran into an occurence where I needed extensive air warfare. Just casual with troop carrying. I like the Locusts, particularly at high levels with Dream Twister (for the bonus) and Neural Amplifier (so they can't nullify the bonus).
cousLee	posted 04-02-99 01:27 AM ET WAAAAAAA. the Coper is the best, sorry. as for grav ships??what are those. I have yet to see one. i get conquest long before those appear (AI or myown) Couldn't even tell you what they look like. it's like the posts regarding Yang PBing someone so bad they get nightsweats. HA, never has happened to me. simply put, I get choppers, you get a free trip to Dismal Land to sing "It's was a small world afterall". (and yes, I play TI so don't give me that crap try a harder level)(large planet,TB)
Bdot	posted 04-02-99 10:05 AM ET SMAC chopters are probably the worst units in game. CIV chopters were real good though.
Faithkills	posted 04-02-99 12:00 PM ET As Pique so eloquently put it, choppers can win the game in their own right. q.e.d. they are a degenerate unit that can ruin the game if you are the type to use every possible edge to your advantage. (and you must be to survive to this point if you play TI, I still lose regularly playing TI) But like Pique says once you get these first and have time to build them it's frequently a slide. So in effect it does ruin the game after that point. To mitigate this I always play blind, so I don't always get them when I could use them, so that's what makes it not ruin it for me... but if you don't play blind, I could see getting bored soon after getting choppers. For MP it's not "unbalanced" because everyone can get them, but it does make for less interesting games if there's one prime tactic. (generalization, I haven't played SMAC MP yet) All in all IMHO choppers should probably only get one attack and they would still be extraordinarily useful. Perhaps if they took away multiple attacks they could also take away the end turn damage. (not sure if that wouldn't be too powerful) Plus the fact is, in reality the fabulous military utility of choppers is air assault units. Gunships have their use, but in general are entirely too vulnerable. Anything a gunship can do, a tactical bomber ("fighter/bomber") can do far better and with less risk. All choppers should have enormous penalties when being attacked by fighters. BTW I haven't looked, is this in a txt file that we can change? FK
Khan Singh	posted 04-02-99 12:13 PM ET How about this for a fix? Choppers and all other air units and conventional missiles could not actually kill units, they could only reduce them to one power point (like artillery). This would not apply to gravships which are a very late game tech and should therefore have an advantage. This would greatly increase the relative importance of ground units and would encourage alternative tactics. Airpower would still be very important, but would no longer be absolutely predominate. It also seems more realistic. This would, of course, be a major change in the game, and I can't find any way to do it with the text files. But IMO it would make the game more realistic and interesting. Yes? No?
Pique	posted 04-02-99 12:26 PM ET Eloquence is not my forte, so I will once again try to (be forced to?) keep this simple. I lose TI games regularly too, but never after I have the helo chassis. What I would do to them if I could: Choppers can kill units from two squares away, but only one per turn, like every other unit in the game. They get SEVERE penalties when attacking/being attacked by needlejets. Everything else player2, borghese, and Faithkills said. Pique
secret agent man	posted 04-02-99 01:37 PM ET I would just like to point out one thing: In close-range air combat (say, within 2 naut. mi.) an attack helicopter is not at a disadvantage against fighter jets. Past real-life combat statistics from the USAF actually put the odds at roughly 50-50. The jets obviously have the speed (and definite advantage from long range) but the AH's have the manueverability. My point is, there should be no combat modifiers in SMAC when a copter fights a needlejet.
ViVicdi	posted 04-02-99 07:40 PM ET Some of my thoughts on the Chopper: It is the best unit in the game, because of its multiple attack capability. HOWEVER, this capability is proportionally dependent upon your weapon tech and your opponent's armor. Against heavily-fortified targets multiple attack capability is moot. The copter is best used in conjunction with another mobile occupying unit: Drop, Locust, Gravship, whatever. It is, on balance, not unbalanced because it has to land on a base or take damage between turns and can't conquer bases. There IS a problem with the Copter, though -- it obsoletes the Needlejet. To be sure the Hovertank obsoletes the Rover, but look at how far apart they are on the tech tree. Except for some very extreme specific circumstances (aerial blockade, long range defense-recon) the Needlejet is at best no better than the Copter and at worst an obsolete useless vulnerable clunker -- usually within a dozen turns! I agree with those of you who have said that the Copter should not equal the Needlejet in air combat. The solution seems simple -- take away "Air Superiority" from the Copter outright and give the Needlejet multiple attacks during air-to-air combat. This may seem like an identical situation to simply having air defense Copters, but it would allow strong air defense before MMI AND keep the Needlejets in the game.
Faithkills	posted 04-05-99 12:04 PM ET Secret Agent Man, sure if you put a gunship (properly armed) and a fighter of similar generation and ordinance in the sky at close proximity and say go to it boys then it's a closer match. But heck then why not put the gunship in the air and the fighter on the ground. Heck put the gunship in the air and the fighter pilot running to his plane. Sure a missile doesn't care too much what platform it was launched from, but the close range situation is not going to be the one person with the v advantage is going to choose. Granted the gunship can take better advantage of terrain features and fly noe, but come on... in smac obviously both sides have at least a general location for each other. If one were ordered to engage the other, which would you rather pilot? Vivicdi, take away the ability of choppers to have the air superiority ability... that's might be an option. But as Secret Agent Man implied, there's no reason gunships can't mount aam's, so it's has a realism problem. I think probably just take away multiple attacks. To be honest I'm not sure that the game wouldn't be better without multiple attacks for any unit. FK
Krushala	posted 09-06-99 08:29 PM ET yep