Singularity Reactor can't do math: 4*10=30??

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Author Topic:   Singularity Reactor can't do math: 4*10=30??

licha posted 03-30-99 01:30 AM ET
Anyone else getting this problem (anyone obsessed enough to look at all the numbers)? A unit's HIT POINTS, called "Power" in SMAC should be 10 times the rating of the reactor. All my Singularity Engine units still only have a Power of 30. The other reactors calculate correctly (Fission=10, Fusion=20, Quantum=30). Please tell me if this is a bug.
Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS posted 03-30-99 10:14 AM ET
The manual is incorrect. The Singularity reactor has 30 hit points.
jkm
firaxis games
micje posted 03-30-99 11:12 AM ET
Someone pointed out that to mindworms, sing. engine has only 7.5 hit points instead of 10. BEWARE!!!
MoSe posted 03-30-99 11:27 AM ET
Revered and kind Jeffrey,
since you answered that way,
I may assume that it is not a bug but a design choice.
Which brings me to ask you:
Why?
Did you find it was so overpowered you felt the need to twitch a straightforward rule? Was it made before or after release?
And is the 7.5 Psi-D HP (if true) an unforeseen and undesirable and unbalancing and unmotivated side-effect of this patching? Isn't it?
Not complaining, just wondering and trying to understand what's behind.
tia
Knowledge Raker
MariOne
Double Overdrive posted 03-30-99 06:52 PM ET
HAHAHAHAHA this is a funny concept if you think about it.... all the money you spend to upgrade from quantum to singularity engines is wasted money. Quantum and Singularity are exactly the same except for the extra reduction in total price the Sing. gives you... I say again: What is the Singularity engines purpose? It is the worst INTENTIONAL BUG AND/OR GLITCH i have seen in my whole life!!!
The Singularity engine should give you 50 hit points and 50 points against aliens also!!!
PS: it would also be nice to have gravship probe teams......
yin26 posted 03-30-99 08:33 PM ET
Let me save a few people some time by creating a convenient fill-in response format:
[...insert kiss-ass Firaxis defense here...]
[...insert some wacky math formula you just made up to make us all confused here...]
[...insert any possible way to blame the gamer for this here (it need not be rational)...]
[...insert lame final retort that details like this don't really matter in the overall greatness that is SMAC here...]
CyberSpyder posted 03-30-99 08:38 PM ET
That's odd, I could have sworn that I saw one of my singularity units having 40. I guess I couldn't have, if it's supposed to be 30...oh well. Yeah, firaxis, for once I am siding against you! That's just wierd! 10-20-30-30? And, um, double-overdrive? It would be 40, not 50. It's the 4th reactor.
HGB posted 03-31-99 12:27 AM ET
I've posted twice on this subject in the last several days on the Support forum, thinking this is a bug; this is the first time I've seen a clear statement from Firaxis that the manual is incorrect. For once, I'm with Yin: given the clear statement in the manual that the singularity engine gives 40 hit points (which seems consistent and logical), the statement now that the manual is in error almost sounds like a cover-up for a bug. In any case, if the singularity engine fails to give any more hit points (but only affects air unit movement and new unit cost), it seems to be largely a waste of research and certainly a waste of upgrade energy (especially if, as several posters have noted, singulariy engined units are actually more vulnerable to the mind worms just when they make late game rushes). I thing this fix should be first on the list for version 4.0.
micje posted 03-31-99 03:56 AM ET
It's not a bug. Firaxis says it's not a bug, and anyway, I've pointed it out to them in february, so they would have had time enough to fix it. (it's the easiest fix in the world).
What IS a bug is the mindworm effect. But that was only discovered a couple of days ago.
Moral: think before you upgrade. After all, you didn't upgrade your trance scouts to fusion trance scouts, did you? For aircraft especially, the extra movement points are well worth it. (BTW, I often research sing. mechanics BEFORE quantum power).
SMAC is the greatest game EVER, and that's why I'll pester Firaxis for the rest of my life 'till they've squashed EVERY bloody bug.
Zoetrope posted 03-31-99 06:49 AM ET
Jeffrey Morris statement is true: `the manual is incorrect'. Indeed, in accordance with the programmer's maxim that `if the code and the documentation disagree, then they are both wrong', JM accurately stated half the problem; he didn't deny that the program is wrong too. ;(
Here's how I code: write the documentation as programming comments, then write the code beneath to agree with the comments. Voila! Correct documentation and correct code.
PS: the missile range check must be a one-liner: `if (in_range (missile.range, missile.square, target.square))'. At least I hope that Firaxis code at least as transparently as that.
I've seen some pretty horrible source from major companies, but that was in 1960's Fortran. OTOH, even assembler can be cleaned up and made readable! And maintainable.
Aredhran posted 03-31-99 07:48 AM ET
OTOH ? What is that ?
madpig posted 03-31-99 08:26 AM ET
On The Other Hand
MoSe posted 03-31-99 09:47 AM ET
Well, I thought that in trying to not be rude like others are, I'd have deserved a clarifying answer. Still hoping Jeffrey will find a time-slice.
OTOH it came only later to my mind that you get the cost reduction, air units range increase, and no one mentioned the increased cargo capacity. Well, if you don't find it worth to research, you'd get it as by-product on your way to transcendence.
I still don't see how Psi-combat HP reduction can fit in the design picture. 2nd generation bug?
One thing popped up in my mind:
If units with better reactors cost less to build, why should you pay to upgrade them? Wouldn't you get back more than you put in? And how is that price calculated anyway?
(auto answer: if you get back the half, may you still have a delta to fill?)
Keeper of Butterlfy Net
MariOne
The Doc posted 03-31-99 10:52 AM ET
This is entirely my opinion, and not fact:
1) I think originally the Singularity Reactor DID give 40 power. It's stated in the manual, as well as in the game popup index. Not to mention the thing about the mind worms taking off 4 points per hit.
2) I think the programmers changed it last minute, thinking it was way too unfair (comparison note: of all units, only Battleships and Carriers had 40 hit points in CivII), and then they forgot to change the documentation and the mind worm issue.
So what do I (and it seems most of you guys) suggest? First of all, change it back to 40. Second, if it seems too unfair, then change the cost formula so that these units will be more expensive than Quantum units. Another option I can suggest is a "diminishing returns" on power, perhaps like 10, 19, 27, 34 for the four reactors.
DerekM posted 03-31-99 11:35 AM ET
I find it hard to see how having the fourth reactor give 40 hp would unbalance the game. After all, anybody can research the tech.
Two questions:
Was this really done on purpose, and why?
Is this something that can be changed in ALPHA.TXT?
(OK, so that was really three questions.)
MoSe posted 03-31-99 11:48 AM ET
Tis tagline contains 3 erors
bene4 posted 03-31-99 01:10 PM ET
Nice one MoSe, but you forgot the period:
error1: "This" mispelled as "Tis"
error2: "error" misspelled as "eror"
error3: no period to end sentence.
Good point about the manual vs code....
The following is true: The preceding is false.
but I'm sure it's been seen before...
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Author	*Topic: Singularity Reactor can't do math: 410=30??**
licha	posted 03-30-99 01:30 AM ET Anyone else getting this problem (anyone obsessed enough to look at all the numbers)? A unit's HIT POINTS, called "Power" in SMAC should be 10 times the rating of the reactor. All my Singularity Engine units still only have a Power of 30. The other reactors calculate correctly (Fission=10, Fusion=20, Quantum=30). Please tell me if this is a bug.
Jeffrey Morris FIRAXIS	posted 03-30-99 10:14 AM ET The manual is incorrect. The Singularity reactor has 30 hit points. jkm firaxis games
micje	posted 03-30-99 11:12 AM ET Someone pointed out that to mindworms, sing. engine has only 7.5 hit points instead of 10. BEWARE!!!
MoSe	posted 03-30-99 11:27 AM ET Revered and kind Jeffrey, since you answered that way, I may assume that it is not a bug but a design choice. Which brings me to ask you: Why? Did you find it was so overpowered you felt the need to twitch a straightforward rule? Was it made before or after release? And is the 7.5 Psi-D HP (if true) an unforeseen and undesirable and unbalancing and unmotivated side-effect of this patching? Isn't it? Not complaining, just wondering and trying to understand what's behind. tia Knowledge Raker MariOne
Double Overdrive	posted 03-30-99 06:52 PM ET HAHAHAHAHA this is a funny concept if you think about it.... all the money you spend to upgrade from quantum to singularity engines is wasted money. Quantum and Singularity are exactly the same except for the extra reduction in total price the Sing. gives you... I say again: What is the Singularity engines purpose? It is the worst INTENTIONAL BUG AND/OR GLITCH i have seen in my whole life!!! The Singularity engine should give you 50 hit points and 50 points against aliens also!!! PS: it would also be nice to have gravship probe teams......
yin26	posted 03-30-99 08:33 PM ET Let me save a few people some time by creating a convenient fill-in response format: [...insert kiss-ass Firaxis defense here...] [...insert some wacky math formula you just made up to make us all confused here...] [...insert any possible way to blame the gamer for this here (it need not be rational)...] [...insert lame final retort that details like this don't really matter in the overall greatness that is SMAC here...]
CyberSpyder	posted 03-30-99 08:38 PM ET That's odd, I could have sworn that I saw one of my singularity units having 40. I guess I couldn't have, if it's supposed to be 30...oh well. Yeah, firaxis, for once I am siding against you! That's just wierd! 10-20-30-30? And, um, double-overdrive? It would be 40, not 50. It's the 4th reactor.
HGB	posted 03-31-99 12:27 AM ET I've posted twice on this subject in the last several days on the Support forum, thinking this is a bug; this is the first time I've seen a clear statement from Firaxis that the manual is incorrect. For once, I'm with Yin: given the clear statement in the manual that the singularity engine gives 40 hit points (which seems consistent and logical), the statement now that the manual is in error almost sounds like a cover-up for a bug. In any case, if the singularity engine fails to give any more hit points (but only affects air unit movement and new unit cost), it seems to be largely a waste of research and certainly a waste of upgrade energy (especially if, as several posters have noted, singulariy engined units are actually more vulnerable to the mind worms just when they make late game rushes). I thing this fix should be first on the list for version 4.0.
micje	posted 03-31-99 03:56 AM ET It's not a bug. Firaxis says it's not a bug, and anyway, I've pointed it out to them in february, so they would have had time enough to fix it. (it's the easiest fix in the world). What IS a bug is the mindworm effect. But that was only discovered a couple of days ago. Moral: think before you upgrade. After all, you didn't upgrade your trance scouts to fusion trance scouts, did you? For aircraft especially, the extra movement points are well worth it. (BTW, I often research sing. mechanics BEFORE quantum power). SMAC is the greatest game EVER, and that's why I'll pester Firaxis for the rest of my life 'till they've squashed EVERY bloody bug.
Zoetrope	posted 03-31-99 06:49 AM ET Jeffrey Morris statement is true: `the manual is incorrect'. Indeed, in accordance with the programmer's maxim that `if the code and the documentation disagree, then they are both wrong', JM accurately stated half the problem; he didn't deny that the program is wrong too. ;( Here's how I code: write the documentation as programming comments, then write the code beneath to agree with the comments. Voila! Correct documentation and correct code. PS: the missile range check must be a one-liner: `if (in_range (missile.range, missile.square, target.square))'. At least I hope that Firaxis code at least as transparently as that. I've seen some pretty horrible source from major companies, but that was in 1960's Fortran. OTOH, even assembler can be cleaned up and made readable! And maintainable.
Aredhran	posted 03-31-99 07:48 AM ET OTOH ? What is that ?
madpig	posted 03-31-99 08:26 AM ET On The Other Hand
MoSe	posted 03-31-99 09:47 AM ET Well, I thought that in trying to not be rude like others are, I'd have deserved a clarifying answer. Still hoping Jeffrey will find a time-slice. OTOH it came only later to my mind that you get the cost reduction, air units range increase, and no one mentioned the increased cargo capacity. Well, if you don't find it worth to research, you'd get it as by-product on your way to transcendence. I still don't see how Psi-combat HP reduction can fit in the design picture. 2nd generation bug? One thing popped up in my mind: If units with better reactors cost less to build, why should you pay to upgrade them? Wouldn't you get back more than you put in? And how is that price calculated anyway? (auto answer: if you get back the half, may you still have a delta to fill?) Keeper of Butterlfy Net MariOne
The Doc	posted 03-31-99 10:52 AM ET This is entirely my opinion, and not fact: 1) I think originally the Singularity Reactor DID give 40 power. It's stated in the manual, as well as in the game popup index. Not to mention the thing about the mind worms taking off 4 points per hit. 2) I think the programmers changed it last minute, thinking it was way too unfair (comparison note: of all units, only Battleships and Carriers had 40 hit points in CivII), and then they forgot to change the documentation and the mind worm issue. So what do I (and it seems most of you guys) suggest? First of all, change it back to 40. Second, if it seems too unfair, then change the cost formula so that these units will be more expensive than Quantum units. Another option I can suggest is a "diminishing returns" on power, perhaps like 10, 19, 27, 34 for the four reactors.
DerekM	posted 03-31-99 11:35 AM ET I find it hard to see how having the fourth reactor give 40 hp would unbalance the game. After all, anybody can research the tech. Two questions: Was this really done on purpose, and why? Is this something that can be changed in ALPHA.TXT? (OK, so that was really three questions.)
MoSe	posted 03-31-99 11:48 AM ET Tis tagline contains 3 erors
bene4	posted 03-31-99 01:10 PM ET Nice one MoSe, but you forgot the period: error1: "This" mispelled as "Tis" error2: "error" misspelled as "eror" error3: no period to end sentence. Good point about the manual vs code.... The following is true: The preceding is false. but I'm sure it's been seen before...