Looking back. Unit design, a failure?

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Author Topic:   Looking back. Unit design, a failure?

Freddz posted 03-08-99 09:08 AM ET
For a while I thought it fun to design units. And looking at the concept, it's a great idea. But did it work out? Or was the cost in playability and "gamefeel" too big? Looking back, I think it was. Here are a few reasons:
1. You can't leave the auto-designing on 'cause then the computer clutters up with useless unit designs that has to be made obsolete.
2. If you don't have the auto-design on, you have to spend time making units that are supposedly clearcut that you want, and also have to spend a lot of time obsoleting old unit designs with a system that just isn't smooth. I mean, of course you are not going to make a 1-2 ECM defensive unit when you can make a 1-4 ECM unit(and your opponents attack-units are 8-1 for example).
3. How logical are some units? Is a Laser Artillery logical? I don't think so. Lasers fire in a straight line, artillery supposedly in a curved line. Are all weapon types fit for aircrafts for example?
Is it logical that units with good armor and laser pistols are better at defending than a unit with no armor and Rocket rifles. No it's not(though I wouldn't want to have those rocket guys defending inside my base). Is it logical that a cruiser unit have the same amount of hit points that a scout patrol unit has? Is it logical that a better reactor doubles hit points in a unit? Does it seem logical that you design a Cruiser Probe team to gain a sneakier Probe unit because of the greater speed? No. No. No. It just isn't.

4. Graphics. If every unit was individual, more time would have been spent by Firaxis in having the unit have its own sound, have it's own cool appearance. The game could have had plump Battlecruisers that scare the **** out of you when they appear, compact and terrifyingly fast HoverTanks, Carriers with small fighters that you see leave the ship when they attack, "jet-pack" marines and Great Warbots that are immune by the attacks of telepaths. And I'm sure there are better and more sensible suggestions than those. But would the individual feel of the units have been better than what they are now?
That's what I can think of right now. All in all, I don't think it was worth the trip. How do you guys feel about the unit design? Do you think it was worth it?
Count Tar posted 03-08-99 10:00 AM ET
Well I think the unit design SUCKS. I've got my AC shelfed until I finally can download the patch, and hope for it to be improved (will be idle hope I am afraid....).
They should just have made it like the old one, this feature is nice, but VERY Poorly executed, and basicly it even makes the game less fun (how about every 100 year you need 2 evenings to manage you units)
Angel posted 03-08-99 10:04 AM ET
well i played several games now and the only negative aspect i could find about the unit designer was that obsolete units are really ***** to delete!!!! but hey I feel this designer gives you more freedom and even tactical advantages. you should study the possibilities closer. for example if you`re being attacked you can create units especially designed for defense and not just a predesigned one. its faster, cheaper and more effective! its up to you to make an advantage out of it!
Pragmatist posted 03-08-99 10:43 AM ET
The unit design feature is more than acceptable to me. I tend to only design units every couple of tech cycles and even then I only design one or two new types. I find the ability to design a unit to precisely counter my opponent's strategy to be invaluable later in the game. A Plasma Sentinel with AAA, for example, can be devestating to the copter rush later in the game and extraordinarily cheap to build. All things considered I consider this system to be a plus for SMAC.
Count Tar posted 03-08-99 10:57 AM ET
Well nice to know that at least most people think it is a plus. But can someone perhaps give me hint on how to change things. I mostly play Survivalist (no prototype costs), and just take every automated design, so that I at least have them available (costs nothing anyway).
But the problem is that at a certain moment you can make CLEAN units, which don't costs any support. Now ofcourse I want to have that on all my units, but I think it is hell to change that (mostly you have about 50 unit type around that time), and then you have to make the older obsolete (hell again), then make new ones for every design (hell again). Pffff Is there perhaps an easy way arount this ? (I also think the selection bar is not very nice, perhaps they could change this to be like when you change a unit to be build. Then you get a nice full screen with all details etc).
Achilles posted 03-08-99 11:56 AM ET
More and more frequently I find myself designing my own units and retiring the computer's designs. Hey, I know exactly what I want. The only reason I still let the computer do any designing is that occasionally one will be good to use and there won't be a prototype cost.
Maybe you should try designing your own too. Who know what you'll come up with? My current favorite is my Singularity behemoth battery. Singularity laser, Stasis generator, Hover tank, Drop pods w/space elevator, heavy artillery. Those guys are expensive but nice. The point is that It can be fun just designing your own units and even more fun to implement them.
Rong posted 03-08-99 02:46 PM ET
My basic unit design strategy (yes, it is part of your strategy) is turn off the auto-design and don't design anything unless I have to. For example, if I am on a big continent with no other factions in sight, I'd be happily exploring and expanding, so I just define a couple strong garrision units. Sooner or later I'd bump into others. If an invasion is unavoidable, THEN I'd go into design workshop and put together some killer infantries and arties using my best technologies. That way I have much few units to obsolete. Leaving every possible combination in you base build screen is, aha, very bad strategy.
cousLee posted 03-08-99 05:35 PM ET
I think the unit design is one of the best options along with the building que.
it does have some user problems, but not that are that hard once you get use to it. the exception i have found is when you discover fission power. 39 times i had to tell the puter "no". but once you get through that, it is not that hard. first retire any units that have none built (like old designs since upgraded)(note: some units can not be retired, your basic unit designs like scout,rover ect.). then obsolete every thing else. design your new army and upgrade necessary units.
clean reactor is not needed on every unit. a Chaos AAA Plasma Police unit is a great garrison. so the city has to support 1 or 2 units. so what. I use clean reactor on my formers, Air Force, and Mobile ground units. if a city is gonna be hurt by using 1 mineral for support, then you need to terraform a little.
I design units on an as needed basis, but i will also check every 10 turns or so to see if any units can be retired (not obsolete, retired). this helps keep the unit production list manageable.
Civ2 players. Play a game of SMAC, then play a game of Civ2 and count how many times you look for the building que and unit design screens cussing all the way. this is a great feature.
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Author	Topic: Looking back. Unit design, a failure?
Freddz	posted 03-08-99 09:08 AM ET For a while I thought it fun to design units. And looking at the concept, it's a great idea. But did it work out? Or was the cost in playability and "gamefeel" too big? Looking back, I think it was. Here are a few reasons: 1. You can't leave the auto-designing on 'cause then the computer clutters up with useless unit designs that has to be made obsolete. 2. If you don't have the auto-design on, you have to spend time making units that are supposedly clearcut that you want, and also have to spend a lot of time obsoleting old unit designs with a system that just isn't smooth. I mean, of course you are not going to make a 1-2 ECM defensive unit when you can make a 1-4 ECM unit(and your opponents attack-units are 8-1 for example). 3. How logical are some units? Is a Laser Artillery logical? I don't think so. Lasers fire in a straight line, artillery supposedly in a curved line. Are all weapon types fit for aircrafts for example? Is it logical that units with good armor and laser pistols are better at defending than a unit with no armor and Rocket rifles. No it's not(though I wouldn't want to have those rocket guys defending inside my base). Is it logical that a cruiser unit have the same amount of hit points that a scout patrol unit has? Is it logical that a better reactor doubles hit points in a unit? Does it seem logical that you design a Cruiser Probe team to gain a sneakier Probe unit because of the greater speed? No. No. No. It just isn't. 4. Graphics. If every unit was individual, more time would have been spent by Firaxis in having the unit have its own sound, have it's own cool appearance. The game could have had plump Battlecruisers that scare the **** out of you when they appear, compact and terrifyingly fast HoverTanks, Carriers with small fighters that you see leave the ship when they attack, "jet-pack" marines and Great Warbots that are immune by the attacks of telepaths. And I'm sure there are better and more sensible suggestions than those. But would the individual feel of the units have been better than what they are now? That's what I can think of right now. All in all, I don't think it was worth the trip. How do you guys feel about the unit design? Do you think it was worth it?
Count Tar	posted 03-08-99 10:00 AM ET Well I think the unit design SUCKS. I've got my AC shelfed until I finally can download the patch, and hope for it to be improved (will be idle hope I am afraid....). They should just have made it like the old one, this feature is nice, but VERY Poorly executed, and basicly it even makes the game less fun (how about every 100 year you need 2 evenings to manage you units)
Angel	posted 03-08-99 10:04 AM ET well i played several games now and the only negative aspect i could find about the unit designer was that obsolete units are really ***** to delete!!!! but hey I feel this designer gives you more freedom and even tactical advantages. you should study the possibilities closer. for example if you`re being attacked you can create units especially designed for defense and not just a predesigned one. its faster, cheaper and more effective! its up to you to make an advantage out of it!
Pragmatist	posted 03-08-99 10:43 AM ET The unit design feature is more than acceptable to me. I tend to only design units every couple of tech cycles and even then I only design one or two new types. I find the ability to design a unit to precisely counter my opponent's strategy to be invaluable later in the game. A Plasma Sentinel with AAA, for example, can be devestating to the copter rush later in the game and extraordinarily cheap to build. All things considered I consider this system to be a plus for SMAC.
Count Tar	posted 03-08-99 10:57 AM ET Well nice to know that at least most people think it is a plus. But can someone perhaps give me hint on how to change things. I mostly play Survivalist (no prototype costs), and just take every automated design, so that I at least have them available (costs nothing anyway). But the problem is that at a certain moment you can make CLEAN units, which don't costs any support. Now ofcourse I want to have that on all my units, but I think it is hell to change that (mostly you have about 50 unit type around that time), and then you have to make the older obsolete (hell again), then make new ones for every design (hell again). Pffff Is there perhaps an easy way arount this ? (I also think the selection bar is not very nice, perhaps they could change this to be like when you change a unit to be build. Then you get a nice full screen with all details etc).
Achilles	posted 03-08-99 11:56 AM ET More and more frequently I find myself designing my own units and retiring the computer's designs. Hey, I know exactly what I want. The only reason I still let the computer do any designing is that occasionally one will be good to use and there won't be a prototype cost. Maybe you should try designing your own too. Who know what you'll come up with? My current favorite is my Singularity behemoth battery. Singularity laser, Stasis generator, Hover tank, Drop pods w/space elevator, heavy artillery. Those guys are expensive but nice. The point is that It can be fun just designing your own units and even more fun to implement them.
Rong	posted 03-08-99 02:46 PM ET My basic unit design strategy (yes, it is part of your strategy) is turn off the auto-design and don't design anything unless I have to. For example, if I am on a big continent with no other factions in sight, I'd be happily exploring and expanding, so I just define a couple strong garrision units. Sooner or later I'd bump into others. If an invasion is unavoidable, THEN I'd go into design workshop and put together some killer infantries and arties using my best technologies. That way I have much few units to obsolete. Leaving every possible combination in you base build screen is, aha, very bad strategy.
cousLee	posted 03-08-99 05:35 PM ET I think the unit design is one of the best options along with the building que. it does have some user problems, but not that are that hard once you get use to it. the exception i have found is when you discover fission power. 39 times i had to tell the puter "no". but once you get through that, it is not that hard. first retire any units that have none built (like old designs since upgraded)(note: some units can not be retired, your basic unit designs like scout,rover ect.). then obsolete every thing else. design your new army and upgrade necessary units. clean reactor is not needed on every unit. a Chaos AAA Plasma Police unit is a great garrison. so the city has to support 1 or 2 units. so what. I use clean reactor on my formers, Air Force, and Mobile ground units. if a city is gonna be hurt by using 1 mineral for support, then you need to terraform a little. I design units on an as needed basis, but i will also check every 10 turns or so to see if any units can be retired (not obsolete, retired). this helps keep the unit production list manageable. Civ2 players. Play a game of SMAC, then play a game of Civ2 and count how many times you look for the building que and unit design screens cussing all the way. this is a great feature.