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Author Topic:   1-4-1 wins 5-4-1 ??????

Sharp posted 03-08-99 05:43 AM ET
I really need to know how the system works to determine the winning unit in a battle.
I have no idea why a 1-4-1 will beat a 5-4-1. Please tell me the way so i can enjoy the game more. Thanks to those who can help.
LackOfKnack posted 03-08-99 05:47 AM ET
Yeah! Why are my Impact Speeders always toasted by Scout Patrols?
Lack
Sauce posted 03-08-99 08:20 AM ET
I'm not sure, but couldn't it have something to do with the power of the unit, i.e. the reactor.
VIB posted 03-08-99 08:59 AM ET
Are you attacking the Scout patrol with your Impact speeder, or is the scout patrol attacking you? if the scout is attacking you, then those two units would be evenly matched.
in example:
scout patrol (1/1/1) attacks impact speeder (4/1/2). as the attacker, scout uses the first number in its profile, i.e.=1. as the defender, the impact speeder uses the **second** number in its profile, i.e.=1. at this point, its a dead heat, and the likely winning factor, assuming no sensor/terrain/Base modifiers, would be unit experience level.
The moral of dead uncle Johnny's Story;
it's not necessarily the size of your unit, it's how you use it....
Johnny T. the VIB,
Tool of the Conspiracy.

Freddz posted 03-08-99 09:11 AM ET
Read my post about unit design, and tell me what you think. This is one of the subjects.
quizara tafwid posted 03-08-99 09:14 AM ET
A garrison 1-4-1 with a singularity reactor has 16 hit points (4*4). A 5-4-1 rover with a fission reactor has 4 hit points (4*1). Thus each unit can be killed by the other in four rounds of combat. So it's just a matter of who gets that fourth shot in first. Also, if the garrison unit is in a base, it gets a defensive bonus, etc. In the open, the 5-4-1 rover would have an enormous advantage.
Prerogative posted 03-08-99 09:44 AM ET
It depends, just because you have a numerical superiority does NOT mean you are guarenteed a win. I've lost to inferior units before in this, Civ II and Civ I (haha! Eat Phalanx spears you annoying battleship!)
Besides, other factors play in. Terrain, location (+25 in a base) and, of course, equipment. Such a unit defending behind a Perim defense and Tachyon will have a huge advantage over you. Or if it's elite and you made a green speeder. Or so on.
quizera tafwid, I don't exactly know how you're figurng that but, you're wrong. A unit with (any unit) with a singularity reactor has 40 hitpoints, not 16. And any unit with a fission has 10 hitpoints.
NeoTiger posted 03-08-99 11:01 AM ET
While we're at this, does anyone know whether: a) the base modifier adds to or just replaces the terrain modifier of the square the base is built on and b) when a unit attacks, will its attacking modifiers (open terrain for speeders, xenofungus for mindworms, etc.) be taken from the terrain it attacks from or the terrain the defender stands on?
Wen_Amon posted 03-08-99 11:12 AM ET
NO, when you attack, all of the bonuses add together. Lets say you have a commando Impact Speeder that is on a rocky area. Your bonuses are:
Commando +37%
Terran (rocky) +50%
Rover in open +25%
kaphtor posted 03-08-99 12:14 PM ET
Gee, when I go into combat, it seems to me that the rocky terrain bonus is a DEFENSIVE bonus and the speeder/rover in open terrain is an OFFENSIVE bonus, so no unit ever gets both at once. Terrain bonuses, in my observation, are applied based on the defender's terrain. So a speeder/rover in the open attacking a scout in a forest gets NO bonus, while the scout gets +50%. If the scout is in an open square, he gets +0% and the attacking rover gets +25%.
And it looks to me like Base (city) is a terrain type of its own. Defenders get +25%, attacking infantry +25%, other attackers nothing.
cousLee posted 03-08-99 05:47 PM ET
rocky terrain gives a defensive bonus to all units. mobile in open is an attack bonus.
the weapon on any given unit is not a factor when determining defensive strength. or stack a defensive uint with it. this is not civ, where you lose your entire stack if the big guy loses.
i also read that in determining the battle, it starts with a 3 to 2 in favor of the attacker. a unit with hand weapons attacking an unshielded chaos rover has the advantage. look at all battles as an ambush. but don't forget the sensor bonus.
cousLee posted 03-08-99 05:49 PM ET
and i would like to see the game save of a 1-4-1 beating a 5-4-1.
LackOfKnack posted 03-08-99 08:21 PM ET
Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! I meant early in the game, I have a 4-3-2 vs a 1-1-1 both with 1st reactor. How the hell does my unit lose every time?!? On citizen difficulty?!?!
That's like an all-muscle 500 lb. 10'6" person wearing chain link armour getting killed by a little 3' tall, 98-pound weaking(in comparison) wearing a frickin' loin cloth, both having just their fists as weapons.
I know the story of David and the Goliath, but this is stretching it just A SLIGHT BIT too far. It ain't gonna happen. If the little guy found a gun and shot the big guy in the head, he'd fall and cursh the little guy's skull into a fine powder and it would still only be a TIE. In my battle the Scout Patrol was only hit to 10% damage.
"Look at me, I am a naked pedestrial with a baseball bat."
"RAR! I am in a car which has machine guns and rocket launchers mounted on the hood, not to mention I am elite and have 3" thick titanium plating on my bumper. I will now mow you down."
"First, let me lie on the road to make it easier."
"Thanks."
HOW CAN HE LOSE?
AAHHHHH!
$.02 de moi
Lack
LackOfKnack posted 03-08-99 08:35 PM ET
Ahem... I meant to type, "...naked pedestrIAN with..."
My deepest, most sincere apologies,
Lack
Spartacus posted 03-09-99 07:37 AM ET
Wen_Amon, the bonuses do not "add together", they multiply together, e.g. 37.5, 50, 25 together gives 1.375x1.50x1.25=2.58 x base value, or 158% bonus, not 37.5+50.0+25=112.5% bonus. The difference is worth noting, especially for negative effects. You can see this by checking the calculations in the combat box. This is unlike civ2 where everything was additive. An exception is "city walls", where perimeter defence and tachyon together give triple and not quadruple defense (additive).
quizara tafwid posted 03-09-99 08:54 AM ET
Oops! I'm am idiot. I knew there was a 4 to 1 ration of hit points. I just used the defensive factor rather than the base hit points. Sorry.
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Author	Topic: 1-4-1 wins 5-4-1 ??????
Sharp	posted 03-08-99 05:43 AM ET I really need to know how the system works to determine the winning unit in a battle. I have no idea why a 1-4-1 will beat a 5-4-1. Please tell me the way so i can enjoy the game more. Thanks to those who can help.
LackOfKnack	posted 03-08-99 05:47 AM ET Yeah! Why are my Impact Speeders always toasted by Scout Patrols? Lack
Sauce	posted 03-08-99 08:20 AM ET I'm not sure, but couldn't it have something to do with the power of the unit, i.e. the reactor.
VIB	posted 03-08-99 08:59 AM ET Are you attacking the Scout patrol with your Impact speeder, or is the scout patrol attacking you? if the scout is attacking you, then those two units would be evenly matched. in example: scout patrol (1/1/1) attacks impact speeder (4/1/2). as the attacker, scout uses the first number in its profile, i.e.=1. as the defender, the impact speeder uses the second number in its profile, i.e.=1. at this point, its a dead heat, and the likely winning factor, assuming no sensor/terrain/Base modifiers, would be unit experience level. The moral of dead uncle Johnny's Story; it's not necessarily the size of your unit, it's how you use it.... Johnny T. the VIB, Tool of the Conspiracy.
Freddz	posted 03-08-99 09:11 AM ET Read my post about unit design, and tell me what you think. This is one of the subjects.
quizara tafwid	posted 03-08-99 09:14 AM ET A garrison 1-4-1 with a singularity reactor has 16 hit points (44). A 5-4-1 rover with a fission reactor has 4 hit points (41). Thus each unit can be killed by the other in four rounds of combat. So it's just a matter of who gets that fourth shot in first. Also, if the garrison unit is in a base, it gets a defensive bonus, etc. In the open, the 5-4-1 rover would have an enormous advantage.
Prerogative	posted 03-08-99 09:44 AM ET It depends, just because you have a numerical superiority does NOT mean you are guarenteed a win. I've lost to inferior units before in this, Civ II and Civ I (haha! Eat Phalanx spears you annoying battleship!) Besides, other factors play in. Terrain, location (+25 in a base) and, of course, equipment. Such a unit defending behind a Perim defense and Tachyon will have a huge advantage over you. Or if it's elite and you made a green speeder. Or so on. quizera tafwid, I don't exactly know how you're figurng that but, you're wrong. A unit with (any unit) with a singularity reactor has 40 hitpoints, not 16. And any unit with a fission has 10 hitpoints.
NeoTiger	posted 03-08-99 11:01 AM ET While we're at this, does anyone know whether: a) the base modifier adds to or just replaces the terrain modifier of the square the base is built on and b) when a unit attacks, will its attacking modifiers (open terrain for speeders, xenofungus for mindworms, etc.) be taken from the terrain it attacks from or the terrain the defender stands on?
Wen_Amon	posted 03-08-99 11:12 AM ET NO, when you attack, all of the bonuses add together. Lets say you have a commando Impact Speeder that is on a rocky area. Your bonuses are: Commando +37% Terran (rocky) +50% Rover in open +25%
kaphtor	posted 03-08-99 12:14 PM ET Gee, when I go into combat, it seems to me that the rocky terrain bonus is a DEFENSIVE bonus and the speeder/rover in open terrain is an OFFENSIVE bonus, so no unit ever gets both at once. Terrain bonuses, in my observation, are applied based on the defender's terrain. So a speeder/rover in the open attacking a scout in a forest gets NO bonus, while the scout gets +50%. If the scout is in an open square, he gets +0% and the attacking rover gets +25%. And it looks to me like Base (city) is a terrain type of its own. Defenders get +25%, attacking infantry +25%, other attackers nothing.
cousLee	posted 03-08-99 05:47 PM ET rocky terrain gives a defensive bonus to all units. mobile in open is an attack bonus. the weapon on any given unit is not a factor when determining defensive strength. or stack a defensive uint with it. this is not civ, where you lose your entire stack if the big guy loses. i also read that in determining the battle, it starts with a 3 to 2 in favor of the attacker. a unit with hand weapons attacking an unshielded chaos rover has the advantage. look at all battles as an ambush. but don't forget the sensor bonus.
cousLee	posted 03-08-99 05:49 PM ET and i would like to see the game save of a 1-4-1 beating a 5-4-1.
LackOfKnack	posted 03-08-99 08:21 PM ET Whoa! Whoa! Whoa! I meant early in the game, I have a 4-3-2 vs a 1-1-1 both with 1st reactor. How the hell does my unit lose every time?!? On citizen difficulty?!?! That's like an all-muscle 500 lb. 10'6" person wearing chain link armour getting killed by a little 3' tall, 98-pound weaking(in comparison) wearing a frickin' loin cloth, both having just their fists as weapons. I know the story of David and the Goliath, but this is stretching it just A SLIGHT BIT too far. It ain't gonna happen. If the little guy found a gun and shot the big guy in the head, he'd fall and cursh the little guy's skull into a fine powder and it would still only be a TIE. In my battle the Scout Patrol was only hit to 10% damage. "Look at me, I am a naked pedestrial with a baseball bat." "RAR! I am in a car which has machine guns and rocket launchers mounted on the hood, not to mention I am elite and have 3" thick titanium plating on my bumper. I will now mow you down." "First, let me lie on the road to make it easier." "Thanks." HOW CAN HE LOSE? AAHHHHH! $.02 de moi Lack
LackOfKnack	posted 03-08-99 08:35 PM ET Ahem... I meant to type, "...naked pedestrIAN with..." My deepest, most sincere apologies, Lack
Spartacus	posted 03-09-99 07:37 AM ET Wen_Amon, the bonuses do not "add together", they multiply together, e.g. 37.5, 50, 25 together gives 1.375x1.50x1.25=2.58 x base value, or 158% bonus, not 37.5+50.0+25=112.5% bonus. The difference is worth noting, especially for negative effects. You can see this by checking the calculations in the combat box. This is unlike civ2 where everything was additive. An exception is "city walls", where perimeter defence and tachyon together give triple and not quadruple defense (additive).
quizara tafwid	posted 03-09-99 08:54 AM ET Oops! I'm am idiot. I knew there was a 4 to 1 ration of hit points. I just used the defensive factor rather than the base hit points. Sorry.