posted 03-07-99 06:39 PM ET        

The one thing I haven't seen in all these threads is when Firaxis will fix these problems. I want to know when the next bug fix is due out and what bugs it is intended to fix.

I have read a lot of arguments about how this is a Windows problem. That is the equivalent of writing a bad paper and blaming it on your typewriter. I have been managing programmers for many years and I have a simple rule -- "No matter how cool it looks, if it does not work, take it back and fix it." I know it is popular to blame Bill Gates for everything from Bad Breath to Global Warming. He must be evil and nasty because he is successful and give people like you and me a living. But in this case, I did not pay money to Mr. Gates, I paid them to Mr. Meier et al.

Is it time for me to stop playing the game and spend all my extra time contacting the various game boards and magazines with reports (from your own boards) about how Firaxis sells (and continues) to sell a known faulty product?

This is not a threat, this is just consumerism. If I bought anything else and it worked this abysmally, I would get a refund or get the problem fixed. Companies who sell software seem to imagine they are imune from the basic laws of economics -- "you paid for a horse, I sold you a dead mule. But, doesn't it look COOL!"

This sort of tactic in any other industry is called dishonest.

Fix it or refund it!

posted 03-07-99 08:42 PM ET            

You probably have already seen my less-than-well-received post about this topic. I obviously hit a chord with Firaxis (and SMAC fans) by making similar statements (although my diplomacy was rather lacking).

Now, somebody will say: "Then return your game and leave this board to the people who enjoy playing the game."

The problem with those upcoming responses is that fredmoss and others are obviously disappointed fans who truly want to let Firaxis know about their frustrations. Isn't that, in theory, what Firaxis wants to hear (along with the praise, which seems to be MORE what this site was designed for)?

The people who utterly hate the game and have no interest in giving Firaxis feedback are simply not here.

posted 03-07-99 09:07 PM ET            

Great job Firaxis!

posted 03-07-99 09:08 PM ET            

As for answering WHEN the problem will be fixed, well, we're all waiting.

However, it's not as simple as "... writing a bad paper and blaming it on your typewriter." This 'paper' would look fine when viewed by one person and have errors when viewed by another. And possibly further, but totally unrelated, problems when viewed by someone else. This is the unfortunate problem with computer programs - they have a myriad of bases to cover, from different sound, video, and 3D drivers and chipsets, varying quality of CPUs and installation of the Windows OS. [I'm not even sure you're *allowed* to know some things about windows - certainly microsoft has been accused of being slow to make information to non-approved programmers known.] Not to mention the fact that the game uses a high tech approach - 3D component units and MP3 sound files.

Granted, most of that is pretty much a smoke screen for the fact that the game doesn't seem to work too well on some systems. On the other hand, it's only been out for a month, it works on most people's systems, and it's a great game to boot.

posted 03-08-99 07:45 AM ET            

I think that it's easy for someone to think that its a general occurrence if it happens to you and then you get confirmation from someone else. Even if it's only a handful of people.

One thing you have to agree with is that people are more prone to posting a message if something has gone wrong than if it works just fine. So you might think that the game freezes for every other gamer when in fact there are far more people who experience no problems and therefore don't bother posting anything about it.

It would be interesting to have actual figures wouldn't it.

I'd just like to say that I understand why some of you, like Yin and fredmoss get frustrated with the whole situation and just can't understand why people keep quiet about
the problems (be it bug or design flaw). It's just that a lot of us don't experience the
problems. I, for example, am not defending Firaxis simply because of Sid Meier and that I loved his previous games. I honestly have not had problems with this game. And what
might, to some people, seem like a huge design flaw might go unnoticed to me. Simply
because I don't care much for that certain thing. (there's a thread about the way the map is designed and that's the perfect example of how people differ in their opinions about certain things)

Now this reasoning goes both ways. A lot of people get annoyed with Yin26 for speaking his mind. The thing is, they haven't had the kind of trouble that he's had. If they did then I'm sure that they'd be equally pissed off. Do you see what I'm trying to say here.
Everyone perceives things from there experiences. In my case good experiences.

Please.. Everyone try to step back for a while and think about what your opinion of the game and Firaxis would be if you had had the opposite experience with the game. That might help solve all this bickering in the forums (I'm not saying that this is the thread with the bickering)

posted 03-08-99 04:29 PM ET         

My dad just bought a used Pentium 75 and thinks it's the greatest thing in the world. He wants to get all this new software and I said to him that 90% of what's out there won't work. It has a Zoltrix (huh?) sound card an is forcing DOS compatibilty mode and I finally fixed the problem for him by fooling Windows 95 into thinking it's an AdLib board. After 25 restarts his computer's sound card worked. Then I tried to play an AVI. BOOM!!!!! Back to square one...

Anyhow, to make a long story short, I find that if there is one group who is having no problems and one group who is, it has to be a hardware/software problem and not a Firaxis or even a Windows 95/98 problem.

Also, those with crashes may not understand what TSRs, DLLs or anything like that is. When I first ran SMAC the videos were just showing up as green lines. I started getting frustrated, cursing Firaxis and cursing myself for buying the first release of a game. First I checked for a patch. Found the 2.0 beta loaded it, same problem. Next I checked for viruses etc. None. I started getting impatient, I even tried the AutoUpdate and DirectX updates with Microsoft. Nothing. I was about to toss my computer out the window when it dawned on me to check my video card. I checked the ATI site and lo-and-behold there's was an update for my 2 year old All-In-Wonder card. I did the update and PRESTO!!! The videos worked!!!

The bottom line is this. Don't start blaming Firaxis, Sid Meier, etc unless you've explored ALLL you options. It seems like those getting system crash-type bugs are either too impatient to bother with updating their computer drivers, running an old computer and expecting games of 1999 to work without a hitch, or fail to accept the fact that it might be THEIR OWN FREAKING FAULT.

Peace out.

posted 03-08-99 07:22 PM ET            

I have a new machine from Micron. I downloaded all new drivers for my video, sound and DX (6.1). The only thing I haven't fooled with is the BIOS.

Now I have seen problems reported with DX 6.1 on another board with another game, so maybe there's something there.

But this whole thing keeps coming back to a very simple point for me: Firaxis (or any other company) should realize the minefield their programs have to traverse in order to work on people's machines. I have done everything in my power--updated the hell out of my drivers, reinstalled DX and SMAC and so forth and so on--until I memorized the placement of various radio boxes on the screen so I could put the arrow over the exact spot before it popped up.

Is this a Firaxis problem? It is in one very important sense: Firaxis entered the Windows and drivers world (sure, they had little choice) and should--nay, MUST--expect the Yins of the world to get a bit peeved when the QA director says "It's you, not us. By the way, I'll ban you for daring to criticize me and my company."

Should Firaxis be expected to fix the problems of a faulty OS and poor drivers? Any reasonable person would say "No."

Should Firaxis et al. understand that ignorant guys like me who've updated all their drivers will, in the end, take unstable games back for a refund?

posted 03-08-99 07:35 PM ET            

1) M$, they make the OS, however it happens to be a bad OS

2) Bad H/W vendors, ie super-generic unsupported devices( ie ALN-101...)

posted 03-08-99 07:40 PM ET         

Why don't you just admit there's something wrong with your computer? Is it too much of a hassle for you to go and get it checked out by a qualified technician? My friend had to take his Compaq back to the tech 3 times before they fixed it, and YES it was related to the performance of ONE program.
Just because it's a "brand new" Micron, doesn't mean it didn't sneak past their QA dept in a defective state. Why does Fusker's Micron work fine?

As many have echoed, it seems very unlikely that its a Firaxis problem. And I'm not trying to defend Firaxis, but just trying to calm down those people who want to blame rather than thoroughly investigate.

posted 03-08-99 07:41 PM ET            

I asked Micron to actually send me a machine that has these problems. Then, you see, I could spend my spare time complaining on these boards and not also be a liar.

posted 03-08-99 07:44 PM ET            

Your attitude seems to be vaguely reminicent of an internet joke I heard years ago, comparing the net to a car.

Customer: "I can't get this stupid thing to work. I want a refund."

Car salesman: "What seems to be the trouble sir? Your car looks fine to me."

Customer: "Whenever I get into it, tell it where I want to go, and wait, it just sits there doing nothing. It's useless."

Car salesman: "Ummm... do you actually know how to drive, sir?"

Customer: "Drive? I don't want to learn anything complicated, just how to use the damn thing..."

posted 03-08-99 07:59 PM ET            

I had my system shipped to Korea, where I live and work. I bought from Micron because they have a good reputation and I knew that finding qualified help in Korea would be impossible. I've tried.

Don't get me wrong. My machine works great except for occasional freezes when I play SMAC. Well, Rainbow Six messes up from time to time as well.

In the end, Windows+harware+drivers+the games themselves all conspire to dare our programs to work. It's hard not to laugh at how pathetic it is that so much chaos is still haunting this business.

Unfortunately, the burden is being shifted (and accepted by many) to the consumer, who is now expected to download drivers, bribe computer technicians and learn a bit of C++ Turbo just to see the latest Barney screen-saver on a Windows machine.

There is something fundamentally wrong with this industry. What's the solution? I'm not sure. But please don't ask me to take an intensive harware course or become the Godfather to the local computer geek's baby because somehow this is all my fault.

And just as you tire of people not making an effort to fix the problem by themselves, I grow tired of people telling me "Well, it works for me--you're just lazy or ignorant."

posted 03-08-99 08:09 PM ET            

Jeff is just a symptom of the larger issues I'm discussing. I only use him now as an example.

If you've decided to lube up and take it any way they give it to you, enjoy the ride.

If I read one of your posts earlier correctly, I think you said you are 21. I'm nearly 30. Now, I won't give you the "I'm older so I must, therefore, know more than you" routine, but I will say that I've been at this do-it-yourself computer crap since Commodore Vic20s stormed to market and made text adventures a nearly unthinkable reality. You've obviously spent a good deal of time learning how to work around all these problems as well, which is commendable.

posted 03-08-99 08:25 PM ET            

I'd also like to add that you've apprently bought into the hype that it takes great skill to work with computers (because they are SO complicated).

All of this stopped being a challenge to me when I started my family and began working 70 hour weeks. My amazement at these complex machines faded after several nights of coming home to relax by playing a game and having to stay up until 3 or 4 in the morning just to get it working.

Basically, most parties involved in the industry today simply expect the end user to police these problems on their own. The industry has such a forward focus (oooh, and forward is good, right Shining1?) that little attention is given to making things work they way they should now.

posted 03-08-99 08:50 PM ET            

I'm just saying that maybe you've missed something (VERY easy to do and meant without any suggestion of fault on your part), or else you should just wait until firaxis is able to fix the bug. Give them another month and see.

The only thing I take issue with is the fact that you seem to feel you've been screwed over by Firaxis and that they don't give a damn for you feelings. Just remember, they are a small company with some mega reputations to sustain, and are almost certainly doing their best to find a solution (yes, I do buy into some of the feel good hype about firaxis. I certainly don't imagine Sid, Brian, Mike and John sitting around a table chain smoking and laughing at the naive morons who bought their product).

posted 03-08-99 09:10 PM ET            

However, all of the afforementioned systems have one thing in common. They all were systems built upon a single design. There were no 3rd party manufacturers producing clone VIC 20's. Today there are thousands of companies producing Pc devices, and this is the very downfall of the system. It leads to lower prices, sure. But it also leads invariably to less stable products.

Given a single design for a PC, I am sure that Firaxis could produce stable code that would work perfectly. Unfortunately, we don't live in a world where everyone uses a single PC (or PCs based on a single design). Thus, it is quite easy to conceive how bugs in hardware slip through the net (pun not intended).

So, I think you are directing your complaint against the wrong group. Complain rather about the hardware manufacturers and their drivers, because they are the ones causing 99% of the problems. Sure, Firaxis' code ain't perfect, and there are some bugs to it, but they work to fix them. However, if they say a bug is not their product, and it works fine on hundreds of PCs, with my experience (and theirs), I tend to believe them.

As Shining1 says, they are a small company, and the type of attitude you subscribe to them (screwing us over) would be counter-productive. And after all, they are not stupid people (despite what some may think).

posted 03-09-99 08:50 AM ET         

Shouldn't we come to expect that all software has bugs just like we should always expect a president to lie?

posted 03-09-99 07:33 PM ET            

Thanks again for the computer lesson. Where do I send the check?

I'm not asking for my Commodore Vic20 back, although I do miss the fact that it works better in some ways than my 450Mhz PII.

But it's tech-head, fuzzy logic like what you write that obscures what I'm saying:

I agree. The INDUSTRY is a mess. Please stop pointing that out. We agree. You're right. Point well taken. Good examples. No contest. Gotcha. O.K. Loud and Clear. Preach on, Brother!

My point is NOT that I should kill everybody at Firaxis and the world would be a better place. Only Brother Greg as President could make the world a better place.

But if somebody with your tolerance for a crappy industry WERE elected as President, where would we be?

If you're final argument is that I, Mr. Average Computer Gamer, am unreasonable because I expect my game to work and I get a bit peeved when the game's quality assurance people [for the thought-impaired, that is simply a reference, an example. I love Jeff. I'd like to feed his cats when he takes his next vacation] tell me: Download a new driver and look for our new game-"Patch-a-SMAC"-what am I supposed to say?

Boy. How dumb am I. I really should have looked for all the possible reasons its not up to Firaxis to ensure the game works. Gee, it's not really their game anyway. It's the industry's game--it's the industry's fault.

Brother Greg. I love you man. You make me feel so warm and fuzzy because I could never properly blame anybody in your world. There are simply so many POSSIBLE people to blame, that the thought of fixing these problems just begins to ooze from my brain.

posted 03-09-99 07:43 PM ET            

I don't have tolerance for the crappy industry. I do, however, have sympathy for the developers who are forced to develop software for an inherantly unstable system. So, if Firaxis make a game that works under conditions where the hardware, OS, and supporting software are good (and I know of many cases where SMAC runs perfectly), BUT it doesn't run on certain hardware configs, do you think it is fair to level your criticisms at them, or the hardware people who are, in the end, the ones causing your game to fail?

Get this straight, SMAC is a stable program, when run on a stable PC, as proven by the many people for which it runs bug free. So, why complain to the software manufacturer for a problem which is caused by the hardware manugacturer?

Your angst is valid, just wrongly directed...

posted 03-09-99 08:18 PM ET            

Firaxis, as a result, was just being stuffed around and placed in the untenable position of having to either frustrate their creative instincts and make an unambitious game that worked fine on the current setup and wouldn't last more than a year in sales, or else produce a high quality game that occasionally fails when it comes into contact with non-standard equipment. They chose the more risky approach.

Think about it - 3D component based voxhals, multiplayer voice exchange, Mp3 music and sound files - bit of a leap ahead from 2D animation and crummy .wav files. So your machine can handle the latter without trouble. Fine. So can everyone elses. And the game would have looked crap.

Yes, the industry does suck. If anyone doesn't regard the computer industry as a nasty, seedy, backstabbing, dog eat dog world full of people out to make a quick buck at the consumers expense, they're living in a bit of a dream world (apologies to Brother Greg et al who work in said industry. Yes I do have issues with you). But firaxis, a small company very dependant upon making each product work properly, is also a victim of this.

Yes, I do like firaxis (Kiwis have a habit of rooting for the underdog in any fight). No, I hate games that don't run properly - if there is a problem, they better find it and fix it, and sooner rather than later. On the other hand, maybe you SHOULD step back and take a look at all the reasons firaxis could have produced a buggy game, and how it might take them a while to fix it. At least give them that chance, and be civil about it.