Ideas for making Free Market Economics work

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Author Topic:   Ideas for making Free Market Economics work

TheRob posted 03-06-99 04:45 PM ET
The biggest problem with FME is that it is extremely uneconomical. Green is often far more profitable, for example. Besides actually ruining your economy, and hence being unbalanced (gasp!), I feel it doesn't actually reflect how "Free Market Economics" has evolved. As both the Consumer and the Producer grow in education and longevity, their economic plans change. Early this century, with both those values being low, FME did indeed reflect the values as in the game. Today, in contrast, more and more people are investing their money to make it grow, rather than trying to make a quick buck. Most methods of making a quick buck are usually some varient of a "con" and, in the long run, slow & harm the economy. Selling weapons is an example of this old style of FME. A long lived person who plans ahead, though, will recognize that in the long run, to maximize profits, one must help the economy to grow, and hence increase the amount of material goods to own. That same person, when making Consumer choices, will shy away from companies that perform economically harmful practices. As an example, I rarely watch a TV program as it is being broadcast. There are so many comercials now (short termed FME), and it's so easy to get past them (aka VCR) that I don't bother. Also, it doesn't help to know that there are countries which seperate the commercials from the shows, kind of like PBS. No wonder PBS is my favorite station!
Finally, that huge -police rating is more representative of the political state of "anarchy" and in anarchy, economics reduces to "barter." A FME needs police just as much as any other economy.
In practical terms, I think the -police factor should be changed to a -support factor. Also, Democracy is the one that should be -police when it comes to trying to divvy up the problems assoc. with a FME Democracy which we sort of live in (you might say we're Green now, but I think the changes have been more of a result from longevity and education).
BTW, does anyone know where my previous thread went?
Dowdc posted 03-07-99 02:51 AM ET
Ideas for making free market work?
Am I missing something here?
Free market economics is extremely profitable
in SMAC--I really don't understand the people
in this forum that dislike FME. I'll be the
first to admit that free market has some serious drawbacks (-5 police -3 planet hurts), but if you want to talk about energy, you just can't get any better than free market. It gives a +2 econ bonus, which is equivalent to a Colosus in EVERY CITY! And all it costs is 32 credits; it's not even a wonder. Without the terrible disadvantages, free market would be far and away the best socio/economic system out there. If it was better (as some think it should be), people would have 2 choices: become a free market, or lose. It's that good.
Think about that again--a Colosus in EVERY CITY! Unbelievable.
SnowFire posted 03-07-99 05:24 PM ET
Yeah, sorry, we had this debate a long time ago around when the demo came out. I used to say things like this too. Now I use Free Market almost every game. Unless you're very ineficient, Free Market can almost double your energy surplus and nearly halve your research time in a properly run empire. It's an important part of all my peacefully run games and some of my conquest games as well. And I play on Transcend, I might add. Free Market is perfectly balanced- until towards the end of the game, of course, when it would create massive ecological havoc and you can get the same evonomy bonus from Eudaimonism.
MrSmily posted 03-07-99 09:27 PM ET
Free market is really great early on (even better if its the 1st SE option you have).
Because you probly dont have much millitary units out to cause drones (unless you search the area with every possible unit you have), planet doesent get pissed (not much) like at the near-end game, AND you get 1+ energy every square. Also a extra goodie that comes with the tech that gives you free market is the ability to build energy banks.
Shining1 posted 03-07-99 09:38 PM ET
I agree. It gives exactly the same benefits that Democracy did in CivII - no military support, but a massive boost in income. Moreover, you don't even get the senate interfering in your decisions.
And if you combine it with Police state, and a certain wonder (I don't recall which) you don't even get the police problems.
Rasputin posted 03-08-99 03:54 PM ET
Shining1,
I think the wonder you were talking about is the Ascetic Virtues (+1 Police).
Shining1 posted 03-08-99 04:42 PM ET
To anyone playing Transcendance who DOESN'T use the free market in the middle of the game, I seriously recommend it. Not only will you get a likely alliance with Morgan (who is good for tech and provoking fights), the benefits to your tech are essential.
agoraphobe posted 03-08-99 05:55 PM ET
With a little play time, people have woken up to the big advantages of Free Market. These advantages only really manifest themselves over the long run and can be readily used to counter the police and planet deficit. It's a must if you're not the UofP or Morgan (not to mention the "specially challenged" Believers, who really have only one strategy called Probe 'n Conquer) and you want to give them some competition in their own back yards, in the form of Democracy / Free market / Knowledge / Cybernetic.
Probably the best at this is the PK if you play to get a lock on the Governorship early with high pop / Empath Guild - then you get the commerce bonus. Right now I've got Morgan and UoP hating my guts (hey, guys, I'm Free Market / Knowledge / Cybernetic , don't you like me? Not!), while Gaia kisses my derriere for magnaminously saving her from total extinction at the hand of the Hive, Free Market or not. Still barks about it from the little reservation I set aside for her faction - how adorable.
X Calibre posted 03-08-99 06:58 PM ET
I know this isn't a civII forum but I couldn't help but notice that some claimed that free market was to SMAC what democracy was to CIVII. In my mind there is one key difference. In Civ the "we love the idiot day" celebrations were the key to turning you empire into an unstoppable juggernaut. In SMAC free market does not afford you that advantage and is therefore not as powerful.(thankfully it helps to balance the game). In civII the democracy/celebration combo was game over. In SMAC free market is not nearly as powerful.
With that being said free market is still the best choice for most civs. Who cares if your police rating is -5 (or -8 for the matter), if your free market society is hummin' along real well then why would you ever have more than one or two military units *outside* of your territory. In fact, if you beat the snot out of everybody in the tech race because you are so economically superior then I've found that even at the high difficulty levels two helicopters and two paratroopers can decimate a rival civ in 10 years. Incidentally, who cares about the planet, mindworms give you cash every time you kill them. The mindworm is dead, long live the mindworm.
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Author	Topic: Ideas for making Free Market Economics work
TheRob	posted 03-06-99 04:45 PM ET The biggest problem with FME is that it is extremely uneconomical. Green is often far more profitable, for example. Besides actually ruining your economy, and hence being unbalanced (gasp!), I feel it doesn't actually reflect how "Free Market Economics" has evolved. As both the Consumer and the Producer grow in education and longevity, their economic plans change. Early this century, with both those values being low, FME did indeed reflect the values as in the game. Today, in contrast, more and more people are investing their money to make it grow, rather than trying to make a quick buck. Most methods of making a quick buck are usually some varient of a "con" and, in the long run, slow & harm the economy. Selling weapons is an example of this old style of FME. A long lived person who plans ahead, though, will recognize that in the long run, to maximize profits, one must help the economy to grow, and hence increase the amount of material goods to own. That same person, when making Consumer choices, will shy away from companies that perform economically harmful practices. As an example, I rarely watch a TV program as it is being broadcast. There are so many comercials now (short termed FME), and it's so easy to get past them (aka VCR) that I don't bother. Also, it doesn't help to know that there are countries which seperate the commercials from the shows, kind of like PBS. No wonder PBS is my favorite station! Finally, that huge -police rating is more representative of the political state of "anarchy" and in anarchy, economics reduces to "barter." A FME needs police just as much as any other economy. In practical terms, I think the -police factor should be changed to a -support factor. Also, Democracy is the one that should be -police when it comes to trying to divvy up the problems assoc. with a FME Democracy which we sort of live in (you might say we're Green now, but I think the changes have been more of a result from longevity and education). BTW, does anyone know where my previous thread went?
Dowdc	posted 03-07-99 02:51 AM ET Ideas for making free market work? Am I missing something here? Free market economics is extremely profitable in SMAC--I really don't understand the people in this forum that dislike FME. I'll be the first to admit that free market has some serious drawbacks (-5 police -3 planet hurts), but if you want to talk about energy, you just can't get any better than free market. It gives a +2 econ bonus, which is equivalent to a Colosus in EVERY CITY! And all it costs is 32 credits; it's not even a wonder. Without the terrible disadvantages, free market would be far and away the best socio/economic system out there. If it was better (as some think it should be), people would have 2 choices: become a free market, or lose. It's that good. Think about that again--a Colosus in EVERY CITY! Unbelievable.
SnowFire	posted 03-07-99 05:24 PM ET Yeah, sorry, we had this debate a long time ago around when the demo came out. I used to say things like this too. Now I use Free Market almost every game. Unless you're very ineficient, Free Market can almost double your energy surplus and nearly halve your research time in a properly run empire. It's an important part of all my peacefully run games and some of my conquest games as well. And I play on Transcend, I might add. Free Market is perfectly balanced- until towards the end of the game, of course, when it would create massive ecological havoc and you can get the same evonomy bonus from Eudaimonism.
MrSmily	posted 03-07-99 09:27 PM ET Free market is really great early on (even better if its the 1st SE option you have). Because you probly dont have much millitary units out to cause drones (unless you search the area with every possible unit you have), planet doesent get pissed (not much) like at the near-end game, AND you get 1+ energy every square. Also a extra goodie that comes with the tech that gives you free market is the ability to build energy banks.
Shining1	posted 03-07-99 09:38 PM ET I agree. It gives exactly the same benefits that Democracy did in CivII - no military support, but a massive boost in income. Moreover, you don't even get the senate interfering in your decisions. And if you combine it with Police state, and a certain wonder (I don't recall which) you don't even get the police problems.
Rasputin	posted 03-08-99 03:54 PM ET Shining1, I think the wonder you were talking about is the Ascetic Virtues (+1 Police).
Shining1	posted 03-08-99 04:42 PM ET To anyone playing Transcendance who DOESN'T use the free market in the middle of the game, I seriously recommend it. Not only will you get a likely alliance with Morgan (who is good for tech and provoking fights), the benefits to your tech are essential.
agoraphobe	posted 03-08-99 05:55 PM ET With a little play time, people have woken up to the big advantages of Free Market. These advantages only really manifest themselves over the long run and can be readily used to counter the police and planet deficit. It's a must if you're not the UofP or Morgan (not to mention the "specially challenged" Believers, who really have only one strategy called Probe 'n Conquer) and you want to give them some competition in their own back yards, in the form of Democracy / Free market / Knowledge / Cybernetic. Probably the best at this is the PK if you play to get a lock on the Governorship early with high pop / Empath Guild - then you get the commerce bonus. Right now I've got Morgan and UoP hating my guts (hey, guys, I'm Free Market / Knowledge / Cybernetic , don't you like me? Not!), while Gaia kisses my derriere for magnaminously saving her from total extinction at the hand of the Hive, Free Market or not. Still barks about it from the little reservation I set aside for her faction - how adorable.
X Calibre	posted 03-08-99 06:58 PM ET I know this isn't a civII forum but I couldn't help but notice that some claimed that free market was to SMAC what democracy was to CIVII. In my mind there is one key difference. In Civ the "we love the idiot day" celebrations were the key to turning you empire into an unstoppable juggernaut. In SMAC free market does not afford you that advantage and is therefore not as powerful.(thankfully it helps to balance the game). In civII the democracy/celebration combo was game over. In SMAC free market is not nearly as powerful. With that being said free market is still the best choice for most civs. Who cares if your police rating is -5 (or -8 for the matter), if your free market society is hummin' along real well then why would you ever have more than one or two military units outside of your territory. In fact, if you beat the snot out of everybody in the tech race because you are so economically superior then I've found that even at the high difficulty levels two helicopters and two paratroopers can decimate a rival civ in 10 years. Incidentally, who cares about the planet, mindworms give you cash every time you kill them. The mindworm is dead, long live the mindworm.