Do we need ALIEN HELP to reach AC in 100 years....

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Author Topic:   Do we need ALIEN HELP to reach AC in 100 years....

UndertakerAPB posted 03-04-99 11:27 PM ET
A few weeks ago I posted a topic about the realism of reaching AC in 100 years.
I recieved many replies saying that we can with the great pace of technology humanity has been able to achieve.
Well now I must ask you did we really achieve such technologies the hard way or did we steal it????

I was watching a program on T.V. this evening.With many top military officals and even APOLLO 14 astronant Egdar Mitchell, saying repeatedly that the government used REVERSE ENGINEERING from the ROSWELL crash to develop
INTREGATED CIRCUITS
FIBER OPTICS
LASERS
STEALTH
REVERSE ENGINEERING means to dismantle something to discover how it was built.
If this is true...
Then having to reach AC in 100 years using FTL drives might require more lucky crashes.......or alien involvement...

DEVIL'S ADVOCATE,
Undertaker

Jarke posted 03-04-99 11:29 PM ET
Even if everything was reverse engineered, I don't think we would require any further crashes. We're already on the path of high technology, all we need is a little time. I mean hell, our tech level doubles every, what is it now?, four years?
Prerogative posted 03-04-99 11:41 PM ET
Well, you can have your belief, Undertaker. I myself still remain firm in believing that extraterrestial sentience is about as likely as pinecombs taking over the earth.
And, really, Undertaker? A TV program? Oh wow. C'mon, I'm sure you've seen your fair share of silly conspiracy theories.
Remember ye olde proverb:
"He who believes all he reads... better not read."
DanS posted 03-04-99 11:59 PM ET
Well, alien help sure couldn't hurt...
Giant Squid posted 03-05-99 12:52 AM ET
You know you're going insane when you begin to look for alien conspiracies in a fictional computer game...
<=O=E
Burns posted 03-05-99 04:08 AM ET
"I myself still remain firm in believing that extraterrestial sentience is about as likely as pinecombs taking over the earth."
Ohmygod, we're under attack by pinecombs!!! Everybody run!!!
Burns
sorry, that just struck me as funny, no offence intended
UndertakerAPB posted 03-05-99 04:42 AM ET
Well I must admit it is a conspiracy to see top military officals on T.V. saying such high treasonist things on a T.V. program.
But if you guys do believe in extraterrestial lifeforms then you must believe in UFO's.
Look at the old hierogifics in Eqypt, with saucer like drawings which no Eqyptian translator can understand.
Look at the famous drawing of Madonna holding Jesus Christ.With a UFO painted in the background and a small man and dog looking at it from Madonna's shoulder.Forgot the name of artist will post later.
Look at the hiero in Aztec temples.With again saucer like descriptions.Landing with little beings being worshipped by the AZTECS.
Look at a Italian 10th century drawing with what believes to be a jet with flames exhausting in the back.This was 10 centuries before the theory of flight or even jet power.
Or the caves of America with drawings again of saucer like ships flying over the herds of animals.
DEVIL'S ADVOCATE,
Undertaker
(fan of the X-Files)

andersen posted 03-05-99 07:23 AM ET
All those things can be explained, not by me, but experts.
TV can make us believe a lot of things. Wacthing Discovery I sometimes get the feeling that earth will blow up in a matter of a few years.
The question here is "What do YOU want to believe in?"
The Dane
Coyote posted 03-05-99 10:53 AM ET
I believe in the existence of extraterrestrial life, however, I do *not* believe in UFOs. Life exists here, therefore in some other part of the universe I believe it *must* exist. The universe is too large for life to develop on one planet out of a googolplex.
UFOs are another story. To develop and deploy a fleet of UFOs to match the reports that have been catalogued would require an IMMENSE amount of resources, both in terms of manpower, resources to construct and support the vessels themselves. . .
. . .and for what? What makes us so special that another race would spend this many resources in observing us and *NOT* making themselves known to us through an undisputable first contact?
If someone told me the government was hiding the fact that 2 + 2 = 5, I'd tell them, "That just doesn't add up." The theories behind UFOs are similar--they don't add up.
- Coyote
Rubikahn posted 03-05-99 11:08 AM ET
- Coyote -
Think about where we are today in stealth technology. Now, in the few hundred years that it will take us to be out-and-about in the galaxy, think of how much our stealth tech will have evolved. Would anyone see us if we really didn't want to be seen? There may be aliens on earth right now, but we won't know it until they decide to let us in on the facts.
- -
MrSmily posted 03-05-99 02:01 PM ET
or we are all science experiments of an alien race. Just checking up on thier "project" and they dont want us to know.

hey it could happen.....really.
(then suddenly millions of pinecones stumble in threw my front door and one of them asks me "take me to your leader.")
Prerogative posted 03-05-99 02:56 PM ET
Here we go again... atleast this time I have SMAC to keep me occupied, though
Here is my evidence towards not believing in extraterrestrial sentience:
Ourselves.
Using Coyote's theory, there must be other sentient life out there, right? Okay, then this also means that, somewhere, there is life like us.
Now step back, look at people, imagine if we were floating in super-saucers and came to a earth-like planet with intelligent life, much like our own. Would we..
A) Pick up old ladies from Kansas and probe them.
B) Pick up cows and dissect 'em.
C) Make abunch of squiggly designs in a farmer's field for fun.
D) Make contact with the other species for some purpose or another.
Which do you think is most likely? Yeah, harassing old women and making designs in a field could probably be entertaining for a few minutes, but in the long run there's no chance a species like ourselves would just sit in obscure benevolence for no goshbedarned reason.
But that's not it.
Some may say:
"Well, they don't come here because we don't have anything to offer."
Yeah, right.
We live on Earth. That's reason enough. By law of physics we know a planet so perfect for cradeling sentient life such as Earth is one in a huge number. The planet is screaming for attention. And so are we. We are broadcasting all kinds of junk into space. Furthermore, it's only a matter of time before we too become a space faring species.
So that's my opinion, case closed.
TheHelperMonkey posted 03-05-99 03:52 PM ET
The question is not whether are alive (cause there's go to be sentient life other than our own), the question is:
Why would take abduct thousands of people and stick long tubes up their butts?
Why would they only take cows and mutilate them?
What's the point if drawing big circles in a crop field (as mentioned earlier)?
If aliens knew we where here, they would already have contacted us.
quix0te posted 03-05-99 04:02 PM ET
David Brin Hugo/Nebula award winning Sci-Fi author spent like ten or more years with SETI. He now no longer believes in the possibility that we are being or have been visited by alien life. He explains it really well in a short story/essay collection called "Otherness". Basically most of our conceptions of aliens are extensions of conventional mythology into traditional pseudoscientific terms. Aliens are cast as either 1)malevolent evil monsters overcome by plucky humans or 2)benevolent God/Father substitutes for people who are too "modern" to believe in a potent God.
His explorations into what forms aliens might take are always well-thought out and well-grounded in science. He thoroughly debunks the idea of alien visitors on a number of basis which I don't unfortunately have time to go into as they are, well, detailed. A brief restatement wouldn't do them justice. But I commend that collection and his other books to your attention.

MikeyDude posted 03-05-99 05:27 PM ET
I saw it with my own eyes:
--------------------------
1. Aliens came over in huge spaceships.
2. They blew up a bunch of cities and killed a whole lotta people.
3. Two earthly heroes: Will Smith and Jeff Goldblum hooked up a Mac (of all things) to the mothership, uploaded a virus and blew it up with a nuke.
So, there! Do you really need evidence any more tangible than this?
Seriously, I DO believe there is life out there. One cannot be sure of this but it can be assumed given our level of knowledge of the universe coupled with laws of probability and statistics. It comes down to dry numbers.
However, is there or has there ever been alien life down here? You can say yes, but you can also say that elephants can fly. Big Foot, Loch Ness, whatever else -- they've all been sighted and documented and every piece of that evidence turned out to be a hoax. So, in case the point is not clear: did you think my post was stupid when you read the summary of "Independence Day"? Why, because it was a movie -- so clearly not *hard* eveidence and thus not applicable to a serious discussion? Look at other evidence out there -- is any of it really, trully any better? In answering that question, don't be afraid to question things you take for facts.
Thoreau posted 03-05-99 06:06 PM ET
About the Egyptian Heiroglyphs.
Akhenaten was an Egyptian pharaoh in the middle kingdom who started some religious reforms. One of these was to have only one god and to dipict this god not with a human like picture but with a golden disk. This religion was abolished shortly after his death and was replaced with the old polytheistic religion.
CrayonX posted 03-05-99 06:17 PM ET
The whole alien mythos is a deriative of the numerous demonic encounters which happened in Europe prior to the Industrial Revolution. Back then they believed in werewolves, vampires, druids etc.
Today the demonfolk figure we won't fall for that kind of stuff anymore so here comes the "highly plausible" alien stuff we can't readily dispute and which has inspired Hollywood to make whole lot of conspiracy soup.
Does that make sense to anyone?
CrayonX
TheRob posted 03-05-99 06:24 PM ET
Uhm, on a more serious note, just speaking about us HUMANS...
In 1990, I had the pleasure for my senior year in high school to debate weather a mission to Mars was reasonable. Unfortunately, I was on the anti side, so heres the bad news:
Based on what we know how to build, and what we know about interplanetary space, anyone on a mission to Mars is not going to survive. The long duration in space means they'll probably go crazy, just a bit. The probability of a high radiation event occurring without warning is more a question of how many times will it happen. Shielding, with current technology, is far to bulky. Lack of gravity is still a problem, but from what I've seen, Nasa has some good ideas.
Now the good news . If you recall 1990, there was a big craze about "high temperature superconductors." It just so happens while they have limited use down here, up in space, they're perfect. Unfortunately, noone has been doing any such research (altho it was shunted aside so easily... nah, that's an X-files thought, never mind). That technology alone might be able to make Interplanetary and Sublight Interstellar quite feasable. On the one had you could actually create an electro-magnetic field which would be as strong as earth's, thus preventing most radiation hazards. On the other, since space if full of ionized hydrogen (aka protons all by their lonesome selves) you've got a "Bussard Ramjet" a phenomenally efficient space drive.
So, could we get there? Probably. Will we? Only if we achieve world peace and stop putting most of our efforts into weapons.
Ta!
Freddz posted 03-05-99 06:27 PM ET
The question is not whether alien life forms exist, but if UFO:s exist. I personally do not believe in them. The human brain is too susceptible to fraud.
But lifeforms, I just thought I'd mention there are over a billion(several I think) stars just in our Galaxy. What is the chance that our starsystem is the ONLY ONE with lifeforms? And I'm pretty sure there must be some lifeform out there with intelligence.
Cheers
Rigil_Kentaurus posted 03-05-99 08:17 PM ET
Okay, I just had to write something here.
Like many others I believe it would be ridiculous if we are the only sentient species in this universe (if we are, that could perhaps make me believe in God...), it's so incredibly vast that it just seems impossible to me that we're alone.
So, it seems the discussion here has boiled down to UFO's. Personally I like to have an open mind, but I do have doubts about the UFO theory. It's not that it's completely unlikely, because:
1. We may seem just like a bunch of animals, ready to be used for guinea-pigs to them, they could study us like we study the animals of Earth.
2. It seems like everyone assumes that they wouldn't waste so much time on us, but even their technology would be limited, perhaps we're the only sentient species they can reach?
3. Crop circles could be some alien intelligence test or something, or perhaps some landmarks (am I getting too far out here?).
4. There are a few things from the past that could seem to indicate visits by UFO's, but you can't always trust that, it could just be some religious stuff.
But then again, as I said, I have doubts. It all seems a bit *too* weird. And another thing is that most of the people that report abductions, and, no offense, Americans do tend to act a bit... strange, perhaps to get attention, who knows? I would not be surprised to hear that an American had just made up this story. Now, a Japanese or a German for example would be a trustworthy witness, but an American... Naaah. Sorry, but that's how the rest of the world sees you, don't pick on me for it.
Delusions of Grandeur posted 03-05-99 09:11 PM ET
Fact:The Universe is infinite.
Truth:Infinite allows for many possiblilities.
Spook posted 03-05-99 10:36 PM ET
From a Calvin & Hobbes cartoon:
"The surest sign that there's intelligent life out there in space is that it hasn't tried to contact us yet."
(VBG)
Pudz posted 03-05-99 10:49 PM ET
nope. we don't.
besides, who would trust em?
anybody see the t&a movie species?
Gergi posted 03-06-99 12:37 AM ET
When UndertakerAPB started her previous thread asking whether it was realistic for humans to reach AC in a hundred years, the majority of responses, including mine, indicated that it was definitely POSSIBLE. Somehow I get the feeling that UndertakerAPB is now trying to convince everyone that sure it's possible but it's gonna require aliens. Does anyone else see the humor in this? Thanks for keeping it interesting UAPB.
I don't know about UFO's but I definitely believe that there is not only life in space but sentient life. Even with a billion to one odds, that's still nothing to the size of the universe.
Not, an X-Files fan...
Osco Blivion posted 03-06-99 05:58 AM ET
There HAS to be intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, cause there is definately NO intelligent humans. However, as far as them visiting and not introducing themselves to us, maybe they a: Don't want to disrupt our evolution (aka just historians) or b: aren't here for US - dolphins have a much larger brain and brain to size ratio than humans, and I believe they are smarter than humans.
Can we get to AC without alien help? Yes, definately. Regardless of how we came to this point in our technology the ball is already rolling, though we will not be going in a FTLV (faster than light vehicle) any time soon. AC is not that far from here as it sounds, remember, velocity in space has practically no resistance thus constant accelleration can be achieved with a constant power input. Look at the dsp1, its ion reactor has the force of one sheet of paper falling onto your hand but will be travelling at over 8000 mph by the end of its test run (2001 or 2002) with a 1998 or 1999 launch - I can't remember which...
My two cents...sorry for the spelling
O.Blivion
Prerogative posted 03-06-99 12:22 PM ET
Hmmm, interesting...
"Whenever you eliminate the impossible whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truth."
-Spock, Star Trek 6
...And some smart guy, but Spock's cooler
Delusions:
Fact? Truth?! What the devil are you talking about? We don't even understand the world we stand upon. We can't even reach the bottom of the trenches, or dig into the core of our world. We still rely on theory for the greater laws of our universe. Why, explain please, do theories=truth? Science is not truth. Science changes. Science is a chaotic field. Einstein, for all we know, may have been making theories that are rubbish. The world may be a cube. The universe may be far smaller than we believe. And therefore, we may be alone, and you cannot prove me wrong with theories.
Osco:
How do you say? What is 'intelligence'? We don't have a definition for 'intelligence.' It's why AI always winds up being Artificial Idiocy. Is violence a reaction of intelligence? I would think so, if we humans are intelligent, we love to kill things. Or, as it may fall, is benevolence a sign of intelligence? Is intelligence related to behavior in anyway? And dolphins? What makes them more 'intelligent'? Brain size means nothing about 'intelligence', as far as we know. Neanderthals had big pieces of gray matter and they weren't 'intelligent' by the locally accepted definition. If Dolphins are more 'intelligent' what makes them so? They certinely don't act more 'intelligent' than any other species on the Earth. Or is every other species on Earth more 'intelligent' than ourselves? Boy, now I feel deflated since I'm dumber than a worm.

Again, I still remain resolute in saying that if there is any other sentient species like ourselves out there (which there SURELY must be 'cause the universe is just so durnned big!) they won't carve up cows or draw designs in crops. Why are all the aliens introverted, benevolent weirdoes? Where are the monoplistic aliens looking for a planet to plunder? Don't aliens have emotions? Don't aliens have personality? If they don't, well heck, who cares if they exist? They'd be boring anyway.
UndertakerAPB posted 03-06-99 12:29 PM ET
No humor from me what's so ever Gergi.I still believe is almost impossible to reach there in such a time frame.
My post was to ask if we should require alien techs or assistance to make it realistic in my mind.
As I heard many say that it is possible with our cuurent advancements in techs, I question the really hard work humans when though to get to were we are now.
Did we steal it and take the credit?
And if so can we continue at that pace without more crashes or involvement..
DEVIL'S ADVOCATE,
Undertaker
P.S. I do agree with Osco's account that maybe they don't wish to cause panic or unbalance in our evolution ( a.k.a. historians)
Kind of reminds me of Star Trek PART 4 when the crew did there best not to attract attention.
UndertakerAPB posted 03-06-99 12:42 PM ET
Who knows if these aliens have some sort of great project going on for thousands of years.
1. The markings on the crop fields could probably be a message to other alien explorers "We patrolled this area already."

2. The craving up of cows can be to study there anatolmy, or even to take DNA or organs.
3. The abductions of humans can be a cloning project.Who knows if we run into human like beings on another planet.And end up finding out they are slaves to these alien doctors.
Ever saw STAR TREK:INSURRECTION.
4. What if the species of animals that are extinct on this planet, is probably on another planet because of cloning by aliens.
MAMMOTHS, DO-DO BIRDS, DINOSAURS.

These all sound pretty silly, but it is a great way to study our strengths and weaknesses and our way of life.To prepare for a grand invasion or assilimation.

To be honest they could invade us right now with not much of a fight,I wonder what is taking them so long.Do they have more serious plans for us.Or do we still have something they probably still can't understand or get a "SOUL."
Spectre posted 03-06-99 01:39 PM ET
Does anyone else think that the methods these aliens are apparently using in their 'Grand Experiment' are a little too crude?
Why would they use crop circles as messages? Are these ultra-advanced beings forced to resort to Stone-Age communication technology?
Basically the same story for the disections and abductions: Even with present technology, we could be alot more subtle than this.
Leaving aside the question of why they would do any of this, if a bunch of extra-terrestrials were snooping on us, I'm sure we wouldn't have the slightest clue they were here. I mean, they could be using sensors (and actuators) no larger than a speck of dust. How would anyone ever know?
Steve_P posted 03-06-99 02:00 PM ET
Looks like this has evolved into a discussion on the possibilities of alien life. Since some of the arguments don't seem to have any scientific background, I thought I'd give some input. The alien question is dealt with in the Drake equation.
N = (N*) x (fp) x (ne) x (fl) x (fi) x (fe) x (fl)
where:
N = # of advanced technical civilizations in the galaxy
N* = # of stars in the Milky Way galaxy
fp = fraction of stars that have planetary systems
ne = # of planets in a given system ecologically suitable for life
fl = fraction of suitable planets on which life actually arises
fi = fraction of inhabited planets on which an intelligent form of life evolves
fe = fraction of planets inhabited by intelligent beings on which a communicative technical civilization develops
fl = fraction of a planetary lifetime graced by a technical civilization
The results are by no means accurate, but by making optimistic estimates, the number of
technical civilizations is in the millions! And note that this is just for the Milky Way galaxy - not the entire universe.
Read "Cosmos" by Carl Sagan if you are interested in this stuff...
P.S. Delusions of Grandeur - you claim that the universe if infinite by fact... How would arrive at such a conclusion? The universe is measurable, in light years.
P.P.S. Excellent game Firaxis, especially for making people think and not just killing people in shoot-em-ups. It's nice to see that there is still a huge game market for people who like to think.
Prerogative posted 03-06-99 03:18 PM ET
Wow, it's already starting again
Undertaker:
Yes, it sounds silly. It sounds like completly dumb circumstance, things which would be infinetely crude.
Let's see:
Crop Fields as big signs:
Why? Why not just put a big sign in orbit that says "We've already been through."? Don't aliens know that crops grow back? That if they carve up part of the lair of even a semi-sentient species that the species will attempt repair? Don't aliens have radios or walk-e-talkees or telepathy or something?
Carving up Cows to... carve up cows:
Again, what the heck for? If aliens can fly through space they can probably genetically engineer stuff too. Why would they need to carve up cows when they could just build them? And what good do cows serve anyway? If you were an alien, Undertaker, and you were over earth would you either abduct and carve up the species with the spaceship living in the large hive like infastructure and the obviously dominate species on the surface, or would you take the white and brown things producing methane?
Humans in giant cloning scheme
Repetive here, but again, why? What good are human clones? If they can clone humans why don't they just clone themselves? What do they need US for? We're not special. And if they wanted clones why old crazy ladies in Kansas? Why not pick up the whole city of New York? And, referring back to my primary reason for not believing in aliens, what's the motive? Why would any sentient species want clones of an inferior species? And what do you need clones for when you can just enslave the real thing?
Old Dead Species of Earth from Aliens
What the heck for? To make Earth a big zoo? Don't they have zoos on their own planet?
It's too far-fetched, it sounds too flimsy, a compromise to try and make a few hoaxes, a few crazy people and a few sci-fi books fit together into a conceivable reality.
I'll give a secondary unbelief reason. Like another said before, I think aliens, for the most part, are just dreamy little creatures we've made up. My reason for it is simple, the idea that there are aliens out there waiting to embrace us (or eat us) when we launch out into space is a very romantic idea. It's a fantasy, it's interesting and open-ended. It's Star Wars, it may not be happy, but it's just intriuging.
But the cold, darker reality that man is alone in a harsh, unruly and dangerous universe is something most people prefer not to accept.
I'm not saying everyone who believes in aliens are fantasy nuts, but atleast a portion of them. It's like believing in Leprechauns, Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny.
TheRob posted 03-06-99 04:09 PM ET
Most supposed alien descriptions have them being bipedal, humanoid, and so on. Based on a simple genetic survey of our planet, Dirt, it should be obvious that such beings can not, in fact, be aliens. If you extrapolate the likely evolution of a race of humans in space, the likely trends lead to large eyed, hairless, spindly beings oft described as "aliens." That's right: we're not from another planet, we're just from the future. Er, they, I mean. Yes, and they're messing around at this point in time because the y2k problem will wipe out all detailed records of this era, making it safe for Quantum Mechanical reasons to mess around now-here.
MrSmily posted 03-06-99 04:53 PM ET
Maybe aliens like to veiw us as entertainment. I mean our species is pretty f*cked at this moment in time, and they might find it quite comical to see puny Earth Beings blow the hell out of each other in WW3.
Or they are wondering how they (the aliens) lived passed the "atomic era" without blowing themselves up. Kinda like a interstellar history class.
SmartFart posted 03-11-99 09:11 PM ET
there is absolutely no way in reaching alpha-centauri in next 100 years.
why?.......because interstellar travel is impossible.
except mebbe thru wormholes,but there is no evidence that they exist at all,and even if they exist,how can you know that there is one close enuff to our system?
as for those egyptian-aztecs-indian-italian drawnings...am an illustrator myself,and if i draw a man with three buttocks,and our civilization disappears,and 2-3 milleniums after a judgement day a new civilization arise,do you really think that they'll believe that ancient homo sapiens had a 3 butts just because they dig up some of my works? mebbe they will,but as for myself...i need some stronger evidence than that.
how can you know that these saucers doesn't represent a real saucers thrown at artist by his mad wife cuz he stayed out with the boys longer than she expected?
extrateristial life exist,but i don't believe that any of it ever visited the earth.
and if they are,and remained hidden and unseen,they aren't intelligent at all.
CEO SmartFart
Shining1 posted 03-11-99 09:19 PM ET
The only thing that got 'reverse engineered' at Roswell was the historical footage of the alien being cut up. You really must be desperate for something to believe if you buy this trash.
Really. If we needed alien help to create integrated circuits, how the hell did we ever discover fire. Oh, I'm sorry - aliens did that too. And as for stealth... wait a minute...
Uncleroggy! Take that mask off!
Shadwhawk posted 03-12-99 02:56 AM ET
Waitwaitwaitwaitwait.
Wait a second here, Smartfart.
Interstellar travel is IMPOSSIBLE? What? No, interstellar travel is completely possible, and is possible with 30-year-old technology. The Voyager and Pioneer spacecraft can be considered interstellar travelers, though it'll take them tens of thousands of years to reach what they're generally aimed at.
We can easily travel to other stars now. We hollow out Eros (easily done with today's technology), stick a fission engine on one pole (Orion-style engine, easily done with today's tech), fill Eros up with a mini-biosphere (we can create biospheres on a small scale quite easily now), point it toward a star, and start lighting off the bombs. In a few hundred or a few thousand years, we'll reach the star. The only problem is money (that and all of the whiny people who'd complain that we're gonna 'pollute' space with fission explosions).
If you're talking about FASTER THAN LIGHT travel, we don't know about that yet. Nothing is ever ruled an impossibility in the realm of science.
Shadwhawk
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