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Author Topic:   Believers underrated?

Ender4000 posted 03-01-99 08:49 AM ET
I finally tried a game with the Believers. I had heard all the negative hype, I had looked at the civ in the book and couldn't see why anyone would play them over the Spartans... then I played them.
My first surprise was the +2 support, it didn't say this in the book, and I never heard anyone mention it. Boy this is a huge advantage, I was able to keep 1 defensive unit, 1 or 2 formers, and 1 or 2 military units supported by each base with no mineral penalties. Second thing I noticed was the 20% tech hit didn't bother me that much, I was behind from the no research at the beginning, but since I usually had 2 formers per city I was actually bringing in more energy per base faster so it evened out.
The third thing I noticed was that late in the game +25% attack is better than +2 morale. with the proper advances/social engineering your units are all elite anyway. Add into that an additional +25% and you have a real powerhouse.
All in all I have to say I thought the believers to be every bit as powerful as most other civilizations. After playing all the civs the only one I think is weaker than others is the Morganites, I'll have to play them more to see if thats true or not.
As for the thought that the computer sucks with the believers, I personally hate being stuck by them, they are just too powerful early. They do tend to peter out a bit at the end though. I think part of the problem is the computer uses the fundementalist politics, which is the worst choice, especially for a civ that already has -2 research.
Pragmatist posted 03-01-99 09:30 AM ET
I've tried 'em several times and I have problems at about 2230-50 no matter how I go. I can always beat my neighbors but once I need to leave the continent I'm in trouble. I think that research is so fundamentally important to the flow of the game that the -2 penalty is going to kill you eventually at the higher levels. If you play with capturing Techs via Conquest you might be able to win with them.
Possibility posted 03-01-99 06:12 PM ET
Believer Probe teams are the best. A great think to do is make submarine cruiser probe ships. They have a movement of 7! 8 if they are elite. Just find the UofP and build a sea base 7 squares away from one of there sea bases and just do constant stealling of techs from that city. You will be every bit as advanced as they are and possibly more advanced. The wise thing to do is just turn science off completely as the believers and just get money. You can then buy enemy cities which will be cheaper cause you have +1 probe.
Spoe posted 03-01-99 08:54 PM ET
Or get the UoP to surrender to you early on, give their conquered cities back, and they'll happily give you every tech they get.
player1 posted 03-01-99 10:59 PM ET
Another point; even if your enemies have you beat technologically, you can even the playing field by using Mindworms for military
units. A swarm of Demon Boil Locusts is gonna wipe just about anything out, regardless of how much technology they've got! Tack the 25% attack bonus onto their Psi attack, and your worries are over.
CaptComal posted 03-01-99 11:32 PM ET
Possibility - a question:
Your strategy for using submarine cruiser probe ships sounds very good.
However ... just how many TECHs do you have to have in order to be able to actually build them!?
It would seem that you need research to get those techs in order to get to that level where you can build a Submarine, a Cruiser, a Probe team.
Best Regards,
CaptComal
PrinceBimz posted 03-02-99 05:13 AM ET
My game I am playing now, I have the Believers and I am doing very well. I get most of my technology from the Gaians who I have a pact with. I also have been trading from the other factions and my tech level is high. I dominate in first place. Possibility, I like your idea about the submarine cruiser probe ships but you need the tech for that. You can get the tech pretty easy though, just trade and form pacts, it works for me.
Pragmatist posted 03-02-99 12:31 PM ET
The other problem with a steal tech strategy is that you can only steal from a given city once...
Of course, the AI seems to be able to steal endlessly...
Fenris posted 03-02-99 12:50 PM ET
You can steal tech more than once from a city, however your chance of doing so successfully goes down. If you wait a couple turns you can go back and you'll find that the successful chance has risen a little bit. I've stolen several techs in a row from the same city so I know that it works.
Khan Singh posted 03-02-99 02:03 PM ET
I think the +2 support was added after the manual was printed.
Believer air units are also the best in the game, if they can get state of the art weapons. Attack is (almost) all that matters in the air and the +25 advantage ensures that you can build up to Elite fairly quickly. Your air units can then take on almost anything.
But, of course, the B's need to get airpower first....
Koo posted 03-03-99 02:53 PM ET
I started right away with Believers because I wanted a challenge, and the tech thing really is hard. However (I posted this in the strategy forum), it seems that Firaxis intended the Believers to be a sort of right-wing terrorist organization: good on offense, good on covert operations, not so good on intellectual pursuits. So play them that way -- if you're the role-playing type, Believers would be an awful lot of fun in multiplayer, if you can ever round up 7 people; you can really wreak havoc by framing people and having them turn on each other with your probe teams.
Scrubby posted 03-03-99 03:09 PM ET
If you've followed my posts on this topic bear with me here as I repeat myself. The Believers are well balanced. They function quite well within this game. I have never eally disputed that. What I take issue with is the Believers being a bunch of backwards, sneaky, militarists. This doesn't mesh with their supposedly Christian roots. What is all boils down to is:
1. The +25% attack coupled with the sometimes crippling -2 research forces Believers into a becoming somewhat Spartan like. This seems quite out of character.
2. In a game like SMAC, where the tech tree race is basic to the game, no matter how much we may deny it, -2 research (which is entirely in the "believer" flavour) is BAD. Especially in the long run.
For me, I enjoy "roleplaying" the various factions when I play as them... As Gaians I play it up "green", as Morgan I go "industrial" and as Hive I go "despotic" whatever, you get the picture. As Believer I feel like I am forced into portraying a sneaky underhanded, backwards, holy war loving faction that doesn't mesh with what my view of the faction *should* be.
Anyone out there wanna comment on this?
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Author	Topic: Believers underrated?
Ender4000	posted 03-01-99 08:49 AM ET I finally tried a game with the Believers. I had heard all the negative hype, I had looked at the civ in the book and couldn't see why anyone would play them over the Spartans... then I played them. My first surprise was the +2 support, it didn't say this in the book, and I never heard anyone mention it. Boy this is a huge advantage, I was able to keep 1 defensive unit, 1 or 2 formers, and 1 or 2 military units supported by each base with no mineral penalties. Second thing I noticed was the 20% tech hit didn't bother me that much, I was behind from the no research at the beginning, but since I usually had 2 formers per city I was actually bringing in more energy per base faster so it evened out. The third thing I noticed was that late in the game +25% attack is better than +2 morale. with the proper advances/social engineering your units are all elite anyway. Add into that an additional +25% and you have a real powerhouse. All in all I have to say I thought the believers to be every bit as powerful as most other civilizations. After playing all the civs the only one I think is weaker than others is the Morganites, I'll have to play them more to see if thats true or not. As for the thought that the computer sucks with the believers, I personally hate being stuck by them, they are just too powerful early. They do tend to peter out a bit at the end though. I think part of the problem is the computer uses the fundementalist politics, which is the worst choice, especially for a civ that already has -2 research.
Pragmatist	posted 03-01-99 09:30 AM ET I've tried 'em several times and I have problems at about 2230-50 no matter how I go. I can always beat my neighbors but once I need to leave the continent I'm in trouble. I think that research is so fundamentally important to the flow of the game that the -2 penalty is going to kill you eventually at the higher levels. If you play with capturing Techs via Conquest you might be able to win with them.
Possibility	posted 03-01-99 06:12 PM ET Believer Probe teams are the best. A great think to do is make submarine cruiser probe ships. They have a movement of 7! 8 if they are elite. Just find the UofP and build a sea base 7 squares away from one of there sea bases and just do constant stealling of techs from that city. You will be every bit as advanced as they are and possibly more advanced. The wise thing to do is just turn science off completely as the believers and just get money. You can then buy enemy cities which will be cheaper cause you have +1 probe.
Spoe	posted 03-01-99 08:54 PM ET Or get the UoP to surrender to you early on, give their conquered cities back, and they'll happily give you every tech they get.
player1	posted 03-01-99 10:59 PM ET Another point; even if your enemies have you beat technologically, you can even the playing field by using Mindworms for military units. A swarm of Demon Boil Locusts is gonna wipe just about anything out, regardless of how much technology they've got! Tack the 25% attack bonus onto their Psi attack, and your worries are over.
CaptComal	posted 03-01-99 11:32 PM ET Possibility - a question: Your strategy for using submarine cruiser probe ships sounds very good. However ... just how many TECHs do you have to have in order to be able to actually build them!? It would seem that you need research to get those techs in order to get to that level where you can build a Submarine, a Cruiser, a Probe team. Best Regards, CaptComal
PrinceBimz	posted 03-02-99 05:13 AM ET My game I am playing now, I have the Believers and I am doing very well. I get most of my technology from the Gaians who I have a pact with. I also have been trading from the other factions and my tech level is high. I dominate in first place. Possibility, I like your idea about the submarine cruiser probe ships but you need the tech for that. You can get the tech pretty easy though, just trade and form pacts, it works for me.
Pragmatist	posted 03-02-99 12:31 PM ET The other problem with a steal tech strategy is that you can only steal from a given city once... Of course, the AI seems to be able to steal endlessly...
Fenris	posted 03-02-99 12:50 PM ET You can steal tech more than once from a city, however your chance of doing so successfully goes down. If you wait a couple turns you can go back and you'll find that the successful chance has risen a little bit. I've stolen several techs in a row from the same city so I know that it works.
Khan Singh	posted 03-02-99 02:03 PM ET I think the +2 support was added after the manual was printed. Believer air units are also the best in the game, if they can get state of the art weapons. Attack is (almost) all that matters in the air and the +25 advantage ensures that you can build up to Elite fairly quickly. Your air units can then take on almost anything. But, of course, the B's need to get airpower first....
Koo	posted 03-03-99 02:53 PM ET I started right away with Believers because I wanted a challenge, and the tech thing really is hard. However (I posted this in the strategy forum), it seems that Firaxis intended the Believers to be a sort of right-wing terrorist organization: good on offense, good on covert operations, not so good on intellectual pursuits. So play them that way -- if you're the role-playing type, Believers would be an awful lot of fun in multiplayer, if you can ever round up 7 people; you can really wreak havoc by framing people and having them turn on each other with your probe teams.
Scrubby	posted 03-03-99 03:09 PM ET If you've followed my posts on this topic bear with me here as I repeat myself. The Believers are well balanced. They function quite well within this game. I have never eally disputed that. What I take issue with is the Believers being a bunch of backwards, sneaky, militarists. This doesn't mesh with their supposedly Christian roots. What is all boils down to is: 1. The +25% attack coupled with the sometimes crippling -2 research forces Believers into a becoming somewhat Spartan like. This seems quite out of character. 2. In a game like SMAC, where the tech tree race is basic to the game, no matter how much we may deny it, -2 research (which is entirely in the "believer" flavour) is BAD. Especially in the long run. For me, I enjoy "roleplaying" the various factions when I play as them... As Gaians I play it up "green", as Morgan I go "industrial" and as Hive I go "despotic" whatever, you get the picture. As Believer I feel like I am forced into portraying a sneaky underhanded, backwards, holy war loving faction that doesn't mesh with what my view of the faction should be. Anyone out there wanna comment on this?