A Working Theory of Infinite Population Growth

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Author Topic:   A Working Theory of Infinite Population Growth

Sarkyn posted 02-17-99 09:16 PM ET
Okay... I've played a couple of games now, and on the second game I started to realise the power of the Sky Hydroponics bays but I didn't have the Cloning Secret Project so I couldn't test this.
Here's a hypothetical situation for you that I think results in Infinite Population Growth (with no theoretical maximum, you could have cities of 100 pop'n, 80+ of which are transcends or specialists).
You have to have the "Cloning Vats" Secret Project, which provides "A state of permanent population boom provided a city has nutrients and hab facilities to support it". This theory also requires an Aerospace Complex to allow you to reap the full rewards of Sky HydroPonics Labs.
So ..say a city has all the Hab Requirements, and you've got a decent number of SpaceFarms in orbit. It has say 3 or 4 spare nutrients per turn.
You build the Cloning Vats, it grows by 1 pop'n, and takes advantage of one more SpaceFarm than previous, and still has 3 or 4 spare nutrients. Next turn, it grows by 1 pop'n, takes advantage of one more SpaceFarm and still has 3 or 4 spare nutrients. The turn after, it does the same and it will KEEP growing by 1 pop'n every turn until you run out of space farms.
And even at the middle of the last game I had 4 or 5 cities that were geared for enough production to produce a SpaceFarm in less than 10 turns or so. So you could be cranking out a SpaceFarm every turn or two... (more once these CloneMetropolis' started contributing to production) and your cities would never stop growing.
Then you'd have SO much money if you built the energy sats as well, that you'd be able to build a city, buy the Aerospace Complex, then buy the Hab Upgrades and you'd be able to tell how long ago you built the city by its size!
So.
Will this work?

Has anyone come accross it? Or do I have to start a game tonight and test it myself?

JaimeWolf posted 02-17-99 10:50 PM ET
Other than the fact that each new citizen uses 2 food and only gets 1 from the skygardens this would be a great idea. You can adjust the alpha.txt to make this happen but it doesn't work under the standard rules.
James
Telastyn posted 02-18-99 01:11 AM ET
another helping idea would be to build the wonder which prevents all drone riots (i forget which one), or a punishment sphere. Something to keep people happy between around 13 people and 18+ when you run out of spaces for people to work.
MrSmily posted 02-18-99 06:09 AM ET
i tried that tactic another way.had cloning project and about 100 hydro labs (hmmm lots of food) and about 20 bases so i have my capital just make more labs (and maybe another 3 bases makeing them too) while my other bases all pump out clean resource collecters with drop pods.now after i build one i drop it to my capital (orbital insert tech) and take 1 food from the base it came from and move it to my capital. with about 15 or so bases doing this you could get LOTS OF FOOD!!! but it will (in a long time mind you) stop sometime (i think).so you have like one super huge base that gets you more votes for council and other goodies
PersonaNonGrata posted 02-18-99 07:01 AM ET
I don't know if I'm doing this wrong. I got the cloning vats wonder. I got hybrid farm enhancement (each square yields 3 food, I believe. Before I know it, my base starts jumping to 30+ population (which I considered very good).
However, the problem starts when due to the hybrid farms, my cities are churning out lots of minerals (because all the squares are worked) and becuase of this, my eco damage start climbing (uhoh). Then groups of 12 mind worms (mature boil) start appearing and kick my butt big-time.
Chris Pine FIRAXIS posted 02-18-99 10:49 AM ET
Because of the limit that JaimeWolf ponted out, Sky Hydroponics Labs will at best double the population of a city. Whatever the theoretical base size limit without them, you can exactly double it with Sky Hydroponics Labs.
Build the Space Elevator and crank out those Nessus Mining Colonies. In no time you'll have 93,824 Eco-Damage and Sky Hydroponics Labs every turn!
MrSmily posted 02-18-99 01:23 PM ET
i thought the Nessus Mining Colonies were eco free minerals? i remember reading that somewhere.
VStar posted 02-24-99 02:52 PM ET
The power of Sky Hydroponic bays, Coloning Vats,and Golden era is impressive... Once my capital had the full hab upgrades, it was a pop point a turn, I finally ended at 49 population, but I had 59 food from direct control (plus the 49) from Hydo bays. I still had 10 surplus food which ment I would have maxed out at 59 population. But the Drop Supply pods should be able to boost that indefinately... Most of my other cities were rising fast lots of +30s...
My question is does the rule about 1/2 effectiveness of hydro bays for cities without Areospace apply if you have orbital elevator?
yummy posted 02-28-99 02:07 AM ET
Now, granted, I have every secret and every advance, and I'm merely trying to populate the Planet, but I have a city that leveled out at 64, and at least twenty that are over 50. Provided you produce enough C. Preserves and Temples of Planet, you can produce 1 Hydroponic bay per major city, per turn. But then I noticed in the game that the bonus is only up to the size of the city. As I understand it, that would mean that a city sized 64 would receive 64 units of food per turn, provided I have enough Hydro Bays. I stopped producing them at about 300 H. Bays total (because you can't queue them and my production phase was taking 10 minutes), but with the addition of approx. 250 Orbital Energy satellites, I am discovering 4 Transcendent techs per turn. So it can be done, but it seems to level off around 64. Perhaps the Hydro Bays are "accounted for" after they are created and I need to go back to creating more...
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Author	Topic: A Working Theory of Infinite Population Growth
Sarkyn	posted 02-17-99 09:16 PM ET Okay... I've played a couple of games now, and on the second game I started to realise the power of the Sky Hydroponics bays but I didn't have the Cloning Secret Project so I couldn't test this. Here's a hypothetical situation for you that I think results in Infinite Population Growth (with no theoretical maximum, you could have cities of 100 pop'n, 80+ of which are transcends or specialists). You have to have the "Cloning Vats" Secret Project, which provides "A state of permanent population boom provided a city has nutrients and hab facilities to support it". This theory also requires an Aerospace Complex to allow you to reap the full rewards of Sky HydroPonics Labs. So ..say a city has all the Hab Requirements, and you've got a decent number of SpaceFarms in orbit. It has say 3 or 4 spare nutrients per turn. You build the Cloning Vats, it grows by 1 pop'n, and takes advantage of one more SpaceFarm than previous, and still has 3 or 4 spare nutrients. Next turn, it grows by 1 pop'n, takes advantage of one more SpaceFarm and still has 3 or 4 spare nutrients. The turn after, it does the same and it will KEEP growing by 1 pop'n every turn until you run out of space farms. And even at the middle of the last game I had 4 or 5 cities that were geared for enough production to produce a SpaceFarm in less than 10 turns or so. So you could be cranking out a SpaceFarm every turn or two... (more once these CloneMetropolis' started contributing to production) and your cities would never stop growing. Then you'd have SO much money if you built the energy sats as well, that you'd be able to build a city, buy the Aerospace Complex, then buy the Hab Upgrades and you'd be able to tell how long ago you built the city by its size! So. Will this work? Has anyone come accross it? Or do I have to start a game tonight and test it myself?
JaimeWolf	posted 02-17-99 10:50 PM ET Other than the fact that each new citizen uses 2 food and only gets 1 from the skygardens this would be a great idea. You can adjust the alpha.txt to make this happen but it doesn't work under the standard rules. James
Telastyn	posted 02-18-99 01:11 AM ET another helping idea would be to build the wonder which prevents all drone riots (i forget which one), or a punishment sphere. Something to keep people happy between around 13 people and 18+ when you run out of spaces for people to work.
MrSmily	posted 02-18-99 06:09 AM ET i tried that tactic another way.had cloning project and about 100 hydro labs (hmmm lots of food) and about 20 bases so i have my capital just make more labs (and maybe another 3 bases makeing them too) while my other bases all pump out clean resource collecters with drop pods.now after i build one i drop it to my capital (orbital insert tech) and take 1 food from the base it came from and move it to my capital. with about 15 or so bases doing this you could get LOTS OF FOOD!!! but it will (in a long time mind you) stop sometime (i think).so you have like one super huge base that gets you more votes for council and other goodies
PersonaNonGrata	posted 02-18-99 07:01 AM ET I don't know if I'm doing this wrong. I got the cloning vats wonder. I got hybrid farm enhancement (each square yields 3 food, I believe. Before I know it, my base starts jumping to 30+ population (which I considered very good). However, the problem starts when due to the hybrid farms, my cities are churning out lots of minerals (because all the squares are worked) and becuase of this, my eco damage start climbing (uhoh). Then groups of 12 mind worms (mature boil) start appearing and kick my butt big-time.
Chris Pine FIRAXIS	posted 02-18-99 10:49 AM ET Because of the limit that JaimeWolf ponted out, Sky Hydroponics Labs will at best double the population of a city. Whatever the theoretical base size limit without them, you can exactly double it with Sky Hydroponics Labs. Build the Space Elevator and crank out those Nessus Mining Colonies. In no time you'll have 93,824 Eco-Damage and Sky Hydroponics Labs every turn!
MrSmily	posted 02-18-99 01:23 PM ET i thought the Nessus Mining Colonies were eco free minerals? i remember reading that somewhere.
VStar	posted 02-24-99 02:52 PM ET The power of Sky Hydroponic bays, Coloning Vats,and Golden era is impressive... Once my capital had the full hab upgrades, it was a pop point a turn, I finally ended at 49 population, but I had 59 food from direct control (plus the 49) from Hydo bays. I still had 10 surplus food which ment I would have maxed out at 59 population. But the Drop Supply pods should be able to boost that indefinately... Most of my other cities were rising fast lots of +30s... My question is does the rule about 1/2 effectiveness of hydro bays for cities without Areospace apply if you have orbital elevator?
yummy	posted 02-28-99 02:07 AM ET Now, granted, I have every secret and every advance, and I'm merely trying to populate the Planet, but I have a city that leveled out at 64, and at least twenty that are over 50. Provided you produce enough C. Preserves and Temples of Planet, you can produce 1 Hydroponic bay per major city, per turn. But then I noticed in the game that the bonus is only up to the size of the city. As I understand it, that would mean that a city sized 64 would receive 64 units of food per turn, provided I have enough Hydro Bays. I stopped producing them at about 300 H. Bays total (because you can't queue them and my production phase was taking 10 minutes), but with the addition of approx. 250 Orbital Energy satellites, I am discovering 4 Transcendent techs per turn. So it can be done, but it seems to level off around 64. Perhaps the Hydro Bays are "accounted for" after they are created and I need to go back to creating more...