posted 02-11-99 06:31 AM ET        

if there is,

bad people
very very bad people

posted 02-11-99 08:13 AM ET            

copy a pirated version? well, still illeagle, as you do not own the COPYrights.

posted 02-11-99 09:52 AM ET            

I do not own the copyrights... so?

posted 02-12-99 12:28 AM ET         

Now before I get swarmed with hate mail about stealing, I plan on buying the game the first chance I get. That's not just for SMAC, but for any game I plan on keeping. Otherwise I simply delete it.

Good demos and shareware are the answer to this but when I got the warez version there were no plans for a demo announced to come out before the game. I had seen SMAC at a trade show and was starving for it. The original plan from Firaxis was no downloadable demo due to file size. I would have settled for the demo.

Last but not least, if you don't support quality software all we will be left with is crap. Two thumps up to Sid Meyers and the whole Firaxis team.

posted 02-12-99 03:20 PM ET            

I am going to buy it as everyone else, and do u really think that a software pir8 somewhere in the world would be so dumb that he/she talked like i did??

posted 02-12-99 07:03 PM ET            

And, of course, I've been checking the UPS tracking to see how close it is. The damn thing has been in the city right next to where I am (practically the same city) since 3:45 CST last night. That really sucks as it could have easily maid it to my mailbox by now, but I must wait until tomorrow.

posted 02-13-99 02:49 AM ET            

wot i really want to know why games cost as much as $50 a piece

i know theres the
making the game
making the box
all that sh**t etc......
then distrubuting the game
and then shipping it to ur favourtie games shop
and then the rip off bas**rds put in another i say about $20 approx....

but why doesnt it have to go to $50???????

i mean that firaxis is making money after all, why not make it cheaper i say to $30.
they might get a considerable decline in profit but at least it compares with the pirated version u get for example $10.

posted 02-13-99 12:29 PM ET            

thats still under a buck!!!

posted 02-13-99 12:43 PM ET            

I don't have any legal soft and will not going to buy some of this kind. 90% of users buys soft and don't think later about support and 'legality' (or with pathriotical reasons). It's easier for them. They will buy. I will not.

I prefer think about it as an intellectual bonus. The same thing is when I buy an overclockable processor or some like it. Narrow-mind-guys uses it as written in a manual. I can use it more efficiently. You too.

And finally, free soft is great advertising for soft-firm. For example: anybody knows about russian free soft, so if #%$@#soft has a real expenses with pirates in Russia, why they don't use trial sanctions?

So this is my point of view:
This situation is at most stable. Why don't let it go on its own way? Easy free copying is an important property of any information in our time.

On the other hand that's the alternative:

1) Soft must be free for incommercial use.
It will be good. Forbid software copying is like a "prohibition law". It's stupid. If it can be done so simple, why it must be denied? I'm serious - I don't understand why there is so many talks about it? If it is illegal, may be we'll review the conception of legality? I talk about games, utilities, developer's tools and so on UNTIL user will make money using it.

2) Objection: no income for software-firm.
Decision: may be this freedom can be a part of social pocily? Taxes-sponsored, state-guaranteed, it will be great.

posted 02-13-99 01:17 PM ET         

There isn't a magical farm where people grow games, the game needs to be made, not just packaged. And that costs millions of dollars.

And companies need to make a profit. It's how capitalsm works. Without profit, Firaxis won't make money, Firaxis wants money. When Firaxis gets what it wants, they make good games, when they don't, they make nothing.

Remember, "Human behavior is economic behavior."

posted 02-15-99 08:34 AM ET            

At second. Making soft is not making money with the soft. Price of many and many single-user-oriented products is astronomically high. I agree with dan that cost of game must be only a cost of developing. Not marketing. May be if price will be reasonable i'll buy some. But in the worst case this situation is reasonable too, where count of payers is lower, but the price is higher. Why don't allow it?

Question without answer : where is a trial sanctions from the soft-firms? May be they are interested with this free-advertising?

P.S. (as s dream) More free soft as a social guarantees... I hear US collected more taxes that can be spent. May be it can be a noteworthy expence item of a state budget...

posted 02-16-99 09:54 PM ET            

A guy on the street offers you to look at some stereo equipment in the back of his van. You know its stolen but you say what the heck. You take a look, he gives you a good price, and you take it home.

You will now suffer the consequences if it doesn't work as it should, as the warranty is probably void because of no receipt.

Also you did not steal the product but rather purchased a stolen product. Why should "you the buyer" be penalized extensively for doing wat you did. The thief that actually stole the product should be the focus of the investigation.

You cant place all the blame on the end-user of pirated software. They are not what started pirating nor will they stop it. They have absolutely no influence as to what happens in the pirate world rather they are just benefiting from it.

posted 02-17-99 04:23 PM ET            

Quite a spirited discussion, though much more dignified than is usual on the subject. My complements to everyone on that score.

I've had some thoughts about this subject and thought I would share them.

How is copying software any different than going to the library and borrowing a book or taping a movie off of cable or taping music? Sure, the copies aren't as good as the original, but most of the time we don't care. In the library example we don't own the book, but we can borrow it any time we please (if it's in) and re-read it. How many times will most of us read a book again, anyway?

How many people who pirate on a small scale would buy the game, anyway? Is it a lost sale if they weren't going to buy?

I was sorely tempted to acquire a warez version in the seemingly endless days before the gold master showed up on my doorstep. Had I done so and was not getting the game from Firaxis I would have instantly gone and gotten a copy as soon as it hit the stores.

On the other hand I think Sid (whom I've met) and Brian deserve all the money they can get. Their games are excellent and shine brightly in comparison to all the junk that comes out. If the increasing move to copy protection schemes continues then pirating really is hurting somebody--US. Those of us who buy legitimate copies are paying with increased inconvenience for the activities of others.

There are several games that have released lately where people in other countries have had real difficulties playing a game they bought. Settlers 3 is a good example of this.

So pirating hurts us. Even though perhaps it shouldn't.

posted 02-17-99 05:00 PM ET            

Second, what's the difference between a book and a game? The latter can be different the second time around. If someone invented a book that will tell you different stories/paths everytime you read it, I'd bet it won't be cheap.

IMHO, games are too expensive. I think I can live with everything as software (manuals in PDF file, maps in JPGs), and download games for a fee (or use shareware approach as someone suggested). With this 'direct' method, it could be cheap. The only problem is the size.

Say that such a distribution is possible, that means the only cost is marketing and development. I don't know much about marketing, but say 10 ppl work on the game with average salary of $70K, they need to sell 70000 copies at $10 to break even.

posted 02-17-99 06:50 PM ET            

i just had a bad thought. what if software companies got together with isp's to try and stop warez. one way they could do it is to charge by the min. that would definity decrease the warez from the us. that would sux if that happened

posted 02-19-99 11:32 PM ET            

One game out now (Settlers III) is now copy-protected. There are, believe it or not, several nifty ways to render a commercial CD unburnable. Blue Byte copy-protected their game to stop piracy. The result is a game that is pretty finicky about the machine it runs on; one virus can screw the game up, for example, and a burned copy won't run well at all. The game has sold over 500,000 units worldwide.

I'm a fairly recent newcomer to Wintel usership. I owned an Amiga for 11 years (don't laugh) and pirated like mad for much of that time. I didn't buy much software during that period, either. While the demise of the Amiga can probably be laid at the feet of Commodore's inept management, the dearth of Amiga software during the last seven or eight years is, I believe, almost entirely due to piracy.

About copying the library book or tape: I have xeroxed entire books at the library's copy machines, and lots of magazine and journal articles. Most of those books were out of print, and past issues of magazines and journals are out of print by definition. Yes, I may have broken copyright laws, but it was the *only* way I could get a copy. I don't copy videotapes; I rarely feel the need to own a movie.

The main thing I mean to say is this: if you want to see copy protection become the norm rather than a rarity, by all means continue to pirate software. The Wintel market is much bigger than the Amiga market ever was, so the effects might be slower. Nonetheless, copy protection will happen sooner or later if you continue.

posted 02-20-99 12:30 AM ET         

Wait... even better, they should be gathered in one big room with all the games they want but only one PC for them all, so they will kill themselfes like hungry beasts!

Going so low down like pirates there is no suitable punishment for them.

posted 02-20-99 09:04 PM ET            

Then, there are idiots who say things like "bad people", and "piraters suck, Die Die Die!". Theese are idiots.

posted 02-28-99 08:56 PM ET            

It's completely legal! Don't report it otherwise unscrupulous hackers will lose money and/or go to jail!

posted 03-01-99 02:12 PM ET         

As for people in the computer industry not making a lot of money, bs, they make good money. I'm in the computer industry, I'm 22 years old and make over 40 thousand dollars a year, no college education. That's good money.

Sid ain't starving, he ain't going to starve. You can call people immoral all you want they will pirate, it's human nature, it'll happen. Ask Sid, heck, ask anyone in the software market, they'll tell you. However, if any of you believe that should, by some miracle, piracy disappear tomorrow, then games would immediatly drop in price, you are very very very naive. It is an excuse for us to be gouged, simple.

Also, how do you explain the same price level on console games? They can't be pirated, at least no where near as easily, yet they cost MORE than computer games. Sure there is slightly higher costs, but not by much. Not to explain the difference. I'm referring to cartridge based systems like N64.

Gouging, pure and simple.

posted 03-01-99 04:22 PM ET            

In the Bangkok computer mall I really saw what amateur pirates we have in this country. Five floors with literally hundreds of small stands selling pirated cds with games and all kinds of applications, right next to hardware shops selling expensive brand computers. Very professionally made cds with color covers and print on the cds them selves. The price is a mere $3,5 for each cd. And you can even get a receipt!!! I bought Sim City 3K this way, and for the uninitiated you couldn't tell it isn't original.

After a hard search I managed to find a store that actually sells [i]ORIGINAL[/i] software. The owner claimed he was one of three companies in Thailand selling original games only. Anyway, prices for games manufactured in Thailand were around $13 each. I got SC3K, KQ VIII, Starcraft and Brood Wars and Half-Life for a total of $65-70. Why are the games so cheap? Because software companies realize that if they do not subside their software IT WILL NOT SELL AT ALL in Thailand according to the owner. He then showed me a pirated cd of Atomic Games' Close Combat III. The actual original was not even in Thailand yet, but he got the pirated version from the factory in Singapore that are manufacturing the original pacific edition of CC3!!!! Piracy is really hurting, I believe that. So go out and buy that game once and in a while. Because freeware games will never be as great as commercial games in the long run, I refuse to believe that.

--

posted 03-01-99 05:05 PM ET         

First off, I totally agree with MichealA (2-19) above when he says that the price would be much lower if there were no people stealing the game.
Second, some people seem to forget that a product has both a fixed developement cost and a variable production cost. The production costs being those it takes to burn cd's, print manuals and boxes, and pay for advertising. Someone else posted what those costs might be and I'm not going to dispute them, since I don't have any hard numbers to work with. However, A lot of people overlook the fact that before the software is released, the aompany LOSES money. Why? Because in order to sell the game they have to develope it first. To develope a game, it requires paying programmers and artists and sound effects engineers money. This is money which has NOT YET been made. Therefore in order to start up, a company needs some seed money, to get them through the time where all they do is post losses. Where do you get this money? You borrow it, and unless you have a rich Uncle named CEO Nwabudike Morgan, you have to borrow it from a bank, enough for several people to support their families, long enough to cover the time it takes to complete the work, which could be as long as a couple of years. This is not a little home equity loan, were talking serious money, that needs to be repaid with interest. When the game finally ships the price needs to cover the fixed cost of developement (which is the same no matter if you sell one copy or 1 million) plus the extra production cost per unit. At a minimum, just repay the creditors. This doesn't include money that the staff gets for their hard work and money that needs to be set aside to finance the next project.

When the game finally ships, how do you know what the price should be? You have to divide costs by quantity. But piracy drives down the quantity and thus the average cost per unit rises.

Some people may claim that the price is too high and they pirate because they can't afford it. Fine then, don't buy the game, its a luxury after all. As ender4000 said you don't steal a Porsche just because you can't afford it. You don't need it to survive, just like you don't need a game. If you were stealing food to stay alive, I'd understand. Heck I'd gladly share with you because its the humane thing to do. I'm not, nor is any company obligated to give you anything beyond that.

For those of you who find the price too high but can't stave off your greed for material goods, then wait. Wait for a sale, ( I bought my copy for 29.99 at best buy, last week) or wait for the for the company to break even, so they can afford to lower the price, since they guaranteed enough profits to repay there loans, make money and have seed capital left over to make the next game. If you think about it, any profit that is made will go toward fulfilling those objectives in that order. You know that the bank is going to get theirs, and the developers want to take care of their families, so piracy in the end would hurt future products, if the software companies were stupid enough to allow it. However, if that happened, then they'd be out of business. So the only solution is to hike up profits, and that means that honest people get burned by the crooks. And I don't know about you, but I don't like being stole from, whether directly or indirectly.

Finally if you're claim is that the game is too expensive, well then sorry you shouldn't be playing it, spend your money on the stuff you actually need - most likely you barely afford that also. If you need it, go out and get a job so that you can afford it, if you don't need it, then do without it, just don't rob everyone else.

posted 03-02-99 04:28 PM ET         

In reference to the example above about the buying the stereo knowing that its stolen out of a van and comparing it to software piracy. Receit of stolen property is a crime too. Even if you didn't steal it yourself, you are still liable for having it in your possesion.

posted 03-02-99 08:00 PM ET            

KaiserSoze, uhh the guy in the room next to me has a zip drive for the n64. gee, i don't suppose he could goto www.top-25.com/emu and find roms for it. and i suppose that i couldn't find anyother console systems out there, sheesh ever hear of emulation?

piracy is stealing, which is bad. which means people lose money because you take what is not yours.
If i remeber correctly this isn't a socilist society but a capitalist, uhh u b in the wrong

all pirates are bad people, die, you die and you goto hell!!!!

near the top, there is the thing about xeroxing articles from the library. okay, how many articales have you copied and read and read? uhh, i just found information for reports and i gave the auther CREDIT for his/her work, so it wasn't stealing.

just wondering if pirating isn't bad, well then i guess stealing isn't bad, sooo all you people who support pirating can i have your adresses? just a question

posted 03-03-99 11:47 PM ET         

Good job, Angel, for still buying the real game.
Nice post Pudz. I agree with MichalA too, about game cost less if there are no pirates.

I say every designer and developer out there deserves their hard earned money if you play their game, no matter how bad (or good) their game is.

For Omnifarious. The copy protection (like in Settlers III), isn't it made to STOP the pirates from making wild copies of it? Remember how the piracy took down an entire PC system with it in the 80s? I dunno, but it was ATARI or AMIGA, I guess.

posted 03-05-99 09:22 AM ET            

And any comparison with car theft is silly. Piracy is not mugging, burglary or murder.
And pirates really don't deserve to die.

Frankly my main concern is not that priracy loads the retail price of games, but that it hurts the bottom line of companies I may have an investment in.

Not every pirated copy would have been a sale. So as long as the company makes money
then I remain (somewhat) unconcerned. If we lived in a perfect free market then piracy would be a much bigger problem. But as it
is the larger publishers can get away with
overcharging for there games.

If piracy were to be stopped completely
then yes prices might drop. But profits will
certainly be larger.

posted 03-05-99 12:35 PM ET            

I don't have a whole lot to say bout piracy that esper did not already say. The one thing in this world I do wish, is that everyone who has a pirated copy should read Brian Reynold's words in the back of the manual (maybe I'll repost them on here later since pirates don't have the manual). For those of you who did read them, you probably know what I am talking about.

Contrary to the belief of many, Sid and Brian are not filthy rich. I would say they are probably upper middle class. What they are are highly respected individuals in the pc gaming community. They probably make as much money low level exec at a Fortune 500 company. But these guys put everything they had into making this game. From the comments in the back of the manual, Firaxis was pretty touch and go and if SMG didn't succeed I'm not sure we would have even seen SMAC.

If there is so much money to be made in games, why is it that all these companies are going out of business and being forced to consolidate with large corporations?

posted 03-05-99 07:35 PM ET         

I've noticed that piraters don't have jobs and people who buy games do. They get all their $$$ from mommy and daddy, they get expensive cars and drive around like they're "all that" and own Playstations and have Tekken 3 tournaments (a pirated copy of course) and either live in a shell or hang out with friends with similar interests and use the internet to either download warez, hack, or fulfill their latest fantasies of Alyssa Milano or Sandra Bullock. (Boy I know too much about those guys...trust me I'm not one of them but I used to associate with them). And these people aren't teenagers either -- their the twentysomethings! (If you're thirty+ and are like this that's pretty sad

So to all you pirates out there, if you can't afford the games out there, ask your mommies and daddies to increase your allowance. As mentioned, it's you cheapskate spoiled brats which tarnish the whole darn industry.

posted 03-24-99 01:19 PM ET            

Piracy groups:

-remove the copy protection (you can make backups)
-remove the CD-check, and allow you to put the entire game on HD (remember Diablo? In the original version it took 30 sec. to move between levels, in the pirated version 1 sec.)
-remove the anti-piracy scheme (like in Railroad Tycoon and Civ).
-bring out the game weeks before its release

I really want to support games, but often, other things being equal, I prefer the pirated version over the original. And that's a sad thing.