Bean Counting - Fun with Lasers and Rovers

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Author Topic:   Bean Counting - Fun with Lasers and Rovers

Darkstar posted 06-17-99 02:15 PM ET
Greetings.
A while back, I noticed an odd thing... Hand weapons and Lasers cost the same thing. I first noticed this on 2-1-Rovers vs Scout rovers... identical cost. I don't have SMAC handy at the moment, but I recall being able to build 2-1-Infantry units for the same costs as Scouts infantry. If this is true, why bother with Hand weapon Scouts at all?
Just wondering if I have gone crazy... Why isn't the game Opponent Engine programmed to take advantage of this? It tries much later with its Laser/Best/Infantry garrison units, but by then, you can usually strap a Top weapon * 2/3 or so to the unit for no impact. Might as well get all that you can... it can be handy to have a top defense unit with some sort of attack rating...
-Darkstar
TheMadStork posted 06-18-99 02:10 AM ET
Doesn't the update only work with fusion reactor (*2) and above?
I have noticed a few choice extras: with singularity reactor infantry, you can add up to a fusion laser for no add'l cost (like a 10-12-1*4, ECM, Trance unit <ECM Stasis Garrison> for 70(?) minerals.)
With a quantum reactor (*3) and above, formers and colony pods can have at least synthmetal defense at no add'l cost.
Again with singularity (*4), all needlejets and choppers can get psi defense at no add'l cost (yay!).
I have yet to notice a real pattern, and it is an undocumented feature (no comments on the manual, please.) With the number of variations possible in the unit design workshop, I seem to spend too much time figuring out if I get any freebies. And since there are so many choices, finding the true dirt on them will be a thankless task.
Thanks for finally bringing it up.
I go now.
Aredhran posted 06-18-99 04:41 AM ET
I haven't tested this myself, but I remember reading here a while ago that 1-1-x were green (ie. Explore) units whereas 2-1-x are red (Conquer) units. That would impact your revolting drones when you have a bad police rating.
I tried a few times to design a 2-best-1 garrison, which works great except when you want to upgrade them. They cost a *LOT* more than simple garrison units. I couldn't tell you the exact figures though.
Aredhran
Darkstar posted 06-18-99 01:37 PM ET
A Scout (1-1-2) Rover cost the same as a Recon (2-1-2). Both cost the same as a Synth Garrison (1-2-1). Which gives you more bang for your buck?
Upgrading the 2-4-1 garrison units built under autodesigner to 2-5-1 costs 50 Credits (IIRC). That's because only the armor was changing. Now, you might be able to drop an Impact weapon on that unit for free, paying for such expensive armor... making it an upgrade to a 4-5-1 design. that would be in the neighbor of 90 energy, or 180. I don't really remember and would have to set up a few test conditions. But as I recall, I have seen a LOT of flakiness on SMAC's part about when I only pay for special abilities and armor gained vs Special, Armor, and New weapon.
Aredhran, it doesn't matter to your drones whether its a Scout Rover, or Recon Rover. They are BOTH military units. Each can exercise military authority as police, for instance, and can get you in trouble if outside your borders and you are in a pacifistic state (extra drone or more for units outside your borders). The A-non-I will use a Recon Rover to explore and worm hunt just as much as a Scout Rover. It just doesn't tend to ATTACK you as often with a weak unit, when it has better available.
Fusion raises the bar for minimum costs so that Infantry and Rover Chassis cost the same at base rate (Fusion Scout Infantry/Rover). You can stick a lot on for "free" then. (IIRC, 3 Rows become minimum for Fusion reactor units.)
But that takes me away from the main point.
Why wasn't the A-non-I programmed to take advantage of this fact? I think its so that the Human got a chance to catch his or her breath and get started. I know how well early rushes work against all factions but the Hive (although some better than others), and as that is one of my top choices to play, that means I don't have the auto Perimeter Defense problem to overcome that often.
So I don't understand... what is the point of paying that extra credits? If I am going to build an attacker, I'll put whatever armor I can on it for free. That means no to light armor compared to a defending brick, but why waste a good spot? There isn't a bonus such as added speed or its any cheaper to build. Same with my defenders... why waste that weapon spot? It can be awful handy to have a defender that has more than hand weapons to counterattack at times.
So, I am wondering what you other SMACoholics think about this... let's hear it!
-Darkstar
aceplayer posted 06-18-99 04:43 PM ET
right - hand weapons are the same cost as lasers. In fact all weapons - 1-8 (through Chaos gun) cost the same amount. Its easy to find out since the workshop prints the cost...
aceplayer posted 06-18-99 05:19 PM ET
oops - I did my cost analysis on choppers...
so apparently weapons cost different amounts for different units...
so the answer to darkstar is - yes sometimes a more advanced weapon costs the same amount....
Darkstar posted 06-18-99 05:25 PM ET
No, all weapons do not cost the same. Missile (weapon 6) is a bit pricey and you can generally put Plasma armor on it for free. However, Gatlings cost less or the same as Plasma, so you end up getting Gatling free with those Plasma defenders. IIRC...
But having played with tagging in weapon or armor for free, I know that weapons DON'T cost nothing. For instance, a Probability garrison can only have up to a weapon of Impact, I believe, before the weapon starts pushing the costs up. But you can have up to Gatling with Silksteel Garrisons.
If your workshop is letting you build Chaos for free, I'd like to know what one and what kind of reactor you have selected. Their are certain minimum levels of cost based on reactor as well.
-Darkstar
K posted 06-19-99 05:08 AM ET
Right on the money, DS.
A prime example of the AI missing the "better unit for same cost" factor is the needlejet. With Fusion, most armor costs the same as no armor. I've repelled a whole blitz of Fusion planes with one chopper because all the planes had no armor(1).
mcv posted 06-23-99 03:06 PM ET
I don't know if anybody mentioned this already, but 1/2/1 garrisons cost the same as 1/2/2 units. So I usually make my defense mobile. Useful if you need some extra defense in a drawn out attack. And some extras are always free for pure defensive units.
Seems like once you've got Mobility, suddenly all your infantry is obsolete (except when attacking bases), until you get better weapons and armour.
TheMadStork posted 06-23-99 03:37 PM ET
mcv: Be wary of making all of your defenders 'mobile'. Infantry troops still get +25% defense when in a base. That bonus alone can make up the difference in many cases.
Darkstar posted 06-23-99 03:54 PM ET
Actually, mcv, certain models of attack infantry stay cheaper than attack rovers. But you have to tease the design to make sure in the Workshop. Those cheap attack units stacked with a real defender can make a potent force...
-Darkstar
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Author	Topic: Bean Counting - Fun with Lasers and Rovers
Darkstar	posted 06-17-99 02:15 PM ET Greetings. A while back, I noticed an odd thing... Hand weapons and Lasers cost the same thing. I first noticed this on 2-1-Rovers vs Scout rovers... identical cost. I don't have SMAC handy at the moment, but I recall being able to build 2-1-Infantry units for the same costs as Scouts infantry. If this is true, why bother with Hand weapon Scouts at all? Just wondering if I have gone crazy... Why isn't the game Opponent Engine programmed to take advantage of this? It tries much later with its Laser/Best/Infantry garrison units, but by then, you can usually strap a Top weapon * 2/3 or so to the unit for no impact. Might as well get all that you can... it can be handy to have a top defense unit with some sort of attack rating... -Darkstar
TheMadStork	posted 06-18-99 02:10 AM ET Doesn't the update only work with fusion reactor (2) and above? I have noticed a few choice extras: with singularity reactor infantry, you can add up to a fusion laser for no add'l cost (like a 10-12-14, ECM, Trance unit <ECM Stasis Garrison> for 70(?) minerals.) With a quantum reactor (3) and above, formers and colony pods can have at least synthmetal defense at no add'l cost. Again with singularity (4), all needlejets and choppers can get psi defense at no add'l cost (yay!). I have yet to notice a real pattern, and it is an undocumented feature (no comments on the manual, please.) With the number of variations possible in the unit design workshop, I seem to spend too much time figuring out if I get any freebies. And since there are so many choices, finding the true dirt on them will be a thankless task. Thanks for finally bringing it up. I go now.
Aredhran	posted 06-18-99 04:41 AM ET I haven't tested this myself, but I remember reading here a while ago that 1-1-x were green (ie. Explore) units whereas 2-1-x are red (Conquer) units. That would impact your revolting drones when you have a bad police rating. I tried a few times to design a 2-best-1 garrison, which works great except when you want to upgrade them. They cost a LOT more than simple garrison units. I couldn't tell you the exact figures though. Aredhran
Darkstar	posted 06-18-99 01:37 PM ET A Scout (1-1-2) Rover cost the same as a Recon (2-1-2). Both cost the same as a Synth Garrison (1-2-1). Which gives you more bang for your buck? Upgrading the 2-4-1 garrison units built under autodesigner to 2-5-1 costs 50 Credits (IIRC). That's because only the armor was changing. Now, you might be able to drop an Impact weapon on that unit for free, paying for such expensive armor... making it an upgrade to a 4-5-1 design. that would be in the neighbor of 90 energy, or 180. I don't really remember and would have to set up a few test conditions. But as I recall, I have seen a LOT of flakiness on SMAC's part about when I only pay for special abilities and armor gained vs Special, Armor, and New weapon. Aredhran, it doesn't matter to your drones whether its a Scout Rover, or Recon Rover. They are BOTH military units. Each can exercise military authority as police, for instance, and can get you in trouble if outside your borders and you are in a pacifistic state (extra drone or more for units outside your borders). The A-non-I will use a Recon Rover to explore and worm hunt just as much as a Scout Rover. It just doesn't tend to ATTACK you as often with a weak unit, when it has better available. Fusion raises the bar for minimum costs so that Infantry and Rover Chassis cost the same at base rate (Fusion Scout Infantry/Rover). You can stick a lot on for "free" then. (IIRC, 3 Rows become minimum for Fusion reactor units.) But that takes me away from the main point. Why wasn't the A-non-I programmed to take advantage of this fact? I think its so that the Human got a chance to catch his or her breath and get started. I know how well early rushes work against all factions but the Hive (although some better than others), and as that is one of my top choices to play, that means I don't have the auto Perimeter Defense problem to overcome that often. So I don't understand... what is the point of paying that extra credits? If I am going to build an attacker, I'll put whatever armor I can on it for free. That means no to light armor compared to a defending brick, but why waste a good spot? There isn't a bonus such as added speed or its any cheaper to build. Same with my defenders... why waste that weapon spot? It can be awful handy to have a defender that has more than hand weapons to counterattack at times. So, I am wondering what you other SMACoholics think about this... let's hear it! -Darkstar
aceplayer	posted 06-18-99 04:43 PM ET right - hand weapons are the same cost as lasers. In fact all weapons - 1-8 (through Chaos gun) cost the same amount. Its easy to find out since the workshop prints the cost...
aceplayer	posted 06-18-99 05:19 PM ET oops - I did my cost analysis on choppers... so apparently weapons cost different amounts for different units... so the answer to darkstar is - yes sometimes a more advanced weapon costs the same amount....
Darkstar	posted 06-18-99 05:25 PM ET No, all weapons do not cost the same. Missile (weapon 6) is a bit pricey and you can generally put Plasma armor on it for free. However, Gatlings cost less or the same as Plasma, so you end up getting Gatling free with those Plasma defenders. IIRC... But having played with tagging in weapon or armor for free, I know that weapons DON'T cost nothing. For instance, a Probability garrison can only have up to a weapon of Impact, I believe, before the weapon starts pushing the costs up. But you can have up to Gatling with Silksteel Garrisons. If your workshop is letting you build Chaos for free, I'd like to know what one and what kind of reactor you have selected. Their are certain minimum levels of cost based on reactor as well. -Darkstar
K	posted 06-19-99 05:08 AM ET Right on the money, DS. A prime example of the AI missing the "better unit for same cost" factor is the needlejet. With Fusion, most armor costs the same as no armor. I've repelled a whole blitz of Fusion planes with one chopper because all the planes had no armor(1).
mcv	posted 06-23-99 03:06 PM ET I don't know if anybody mentioned this already, but 1/2/1 garrisons cost the same as 1/2/2 units. So I usually make my defense mobile. Useful if you need some extra defense in a drawn out attack. And some extras are always free for pure defensive units. Seems like once you've got Mobility, suddenly all your infantry is obsolete (except when attacking bases), until you get better weapons and armour.
TheMadStork	posted 06-23-99 03:37 PM ET mcv: Be wary of making all of your defenders 'mobile'. Infantry troops still get +25% defense when in a base. That bonus alone can make up the difference in many cases.
Darkstar	posted 06-23-99 03:54 PM ET Actually, mcv, certain models of attack infantry stay cheaper than attack rovers. But you have to tease the design to make sure in the Workshop. Those cheap attack units stacked with a real defender can make a potent force... -Darkstar