posted 06-11-99 01:30 AM ET        

Oh well... off to Copter-ify a few more of Miriam's Chaos Rovers!!

posted 06-11-99 01:49 AM ET            

Do you know how much trouble you can get into for making statements like that?

Nevertheless, I love you for it!

posted 06-11-99 01:55 AM ET            

Not nearly as much as if you would have said it to a guy!

Nell,

GET SOME SLEEP!

posted 06-11-99 02:01 AM ET            

Copters are "THE" Unit in SMAC... if you are going for quick wipe out power. The problem Nell, is that you should get air-power first... allowing you to conduct an air war.

posted 06-11-99 11:23 AM ET            

Hmmm.... Firaxis? U there?

posted 06-11-99 11:31 AM ET            

(Side note: I thought you were a nice guy, but there you are, talking about planet-busting and inflicting pain on someone... Oh, you were talking about Miriam. Nevermind...)

To get these units Elite as they go out of the production lines, you need all these bonus-giving base facilities/special projects. Command Center/Nexus (+1), Bio-enhancement center (what's the project again ? +2), naval yard/maritime control center (naval units), aerospace center (air units).

The rest of the way to Elite is achieved through SE choices (Fundy, Power) and faction bonus (Sparta). If you get them out of the lines at commando, which is not bad already, use a nearby monolith for instant Elite upgrade (does not work for naval/air though)

Aredhran

posted 06-11-99 11:33 AM ET            

Presto - elite units right out of the factory.

posted 06-11-99 01:48 PM ET            

The same thing we do every night, try and take over the world!

posted 06-11-99 02:18 PM ET         

You only need +1 Morale in your social engineering, along with a total of +4 from base facilities to start units off as elite.
(bioenhancement is +2 for all units, while the others are +2 for land/sea/air respectively). I think Deirdre starts with -1 Morale (?), in which case choosing just one social choice of +2 brings it to a net of +1.

As for the copter "imbalance" problem that this thread is about, I would like to mention that air power in general makes it seem a bit imbalanced if you're the first one to get it. Compare this to Civ, where the discovery of Flight didn't automatically mean you ruled the world because the Fighters had a low attack rating. So, I offer you my solution:

In alpha.txt, change chassis costs for needlejets, copters, and gravships to 24/30/36 respectively. Changing from 8 to 10 as suggested above doesn't do much. But doing what I just suggested makes it such that you would be limited to 8-1-? units or lower when you first get the discovery and are still using the Fission plant due to reasonable cost restraints, while still allowing you to make better units at affordable costs as you discover each new reactor type.

Making this change, I notice the AI doing this too if they happen to discover Air power first. Their first needlejets are 6-1-x even though they have stronger weapons because the AI is probably coded not to exceed certain costs. As the player, you could still start off with 10-1-x copters or whatever if you really wanted to, but it would cost probably over 200, and then at least it would seem more fair to be able to kill all those garrisoned units in one turn because you paid out of your nose for it.

posted 06-11-99 02:19 PM ET            

For Air, you need Aerospace Complex and Bioenhancement Center/Cyborg Factory. And SE of course...

For Sea, you need Naval Center/Maritime Project and Bioenhancement Center. And SE of course...

Children's Creche claims that it removes all morale penalities for units defending in Datalinks. It just says morale bonus elsewhere. I don't remember right now how it helps than other than earning a (+) or (++) for units.

Have fun you Peacenik! Imagine, transcending...

posted 06-11-99 02:33 PM ET            

For Base Facilities, +2 Morale means just that. You'd make Veteran instead of Disciplined, or Commando instead of Hardened, etc.

For SE, as stated in the manual, etc:
+1 Morale means +1 Morale (attack/defense)
+2 Morale means +1 for Attack, +2 for Defense
+3 Morale means +2 for Attack, +3 for Defense
+4 Morale means +3 Morale.

posted 06-11-99 02:34 PM ET            

For Base Facilities, +2 Morale means just that. You'd make Veteran instead of Disciplined, or Commando instead of Hardened, etc.

For SE, as stated in the manual, etc:
+1 Morale means +1 Morale (attack/defense)
+2 Morale means +1 for Attack, +2 for Defense
+3 Morale means +2 for Attack, +3 for Defense
+4 Morale means +3 Morale.

posted 06-11-99 11:08 PM ET            

Ask the Iraqis or the Serbs about how unbalanced air power is - if you don't have it. Or ask the German and Japanese troops late in WW II.

Prior to the readiness/maintainability etc. problems in the Army, (in other words, prior to them flying into the ground on night training missions) the doctrine with attack helos is for one to laze a target such as a tank, while another pops an antitank missile from another location while concealed. The lazing helo is exposed for a little while, but far enough away that it is almost undetectable. The firing helo is detectable from the smoke trail of the missile, but it's unhittable since its behind something and already on its way somewhere else.

The first targets are AAA and mobile SAM vehicles, then Command & Control, then whatever the hell you want. If you look at the kills/losses inflicted by attack helos in the gulf war, it is very one sided - but God help 'em if the enemy has any air power.

For one side without air power, SMAC is actually biased in favor of the ground defenders. Realistically, without a counter air threat, you get pounded into the ground with impunity. Since SMAC is futuristic in its technologies, it's fair to presume that the first SMAC air units will have a little more punch than a 1915 vintage Fokker Eindecker.

posted 06-14-99 04:55 PM ET         

In real life, if you don't have Air Power...you are at a serious strategic and tactical disadvantage. Ask the Germans and the Iraquis and the Serbs.

Not one that is insurmountable, but one that is very costly to overcome.

posted 06-14-99 06:52 PM ET            

I've limited them to 4 moves and increased the cost to 14. And I still churn them out like nothing else. Great reactive defenders or for cleaning out a weak city. A handful of shard copters can clean out a technologically inferior faction in a matter of turns - use drop infantry to guard the empty bases. Total required: 4 copters and 4 drop infantry is almost overkill for this tactic.

posted 06-14-99 07:07 PM ET            

A normal grunt (infantry soldier for you non American and non-veteran readers) has as much chance against attack helos as a rat against a hawk.
Don't move, and if you're lucky, he might not see you. But with Infrared sensors, you have even less chance of remaining undetected, unless in very heavy cover.

posted 06-14-99 08:18 PM ET            

A rave is an all night techno filled dance, with various recreational drugs to get a person into the music and up al night having a great time. They are great, if you ever get the chance to go to one, go. It consist mainly of high school and college students raving.

posted 06-15-99 05:52 AM ET            

(Shiny, I agree of course... it's just the irony that makes me crack up)

posted 06-16-99 08:10 AM ET            

If it's a TV show, maybe we have it here (with some silly French translation for the title that probably has nothing to do with the original), but I wouldn't know since I pretty much never watch TV (too busy playing SMAC )

posted 06-16-99 06:39 PM ET            

I thought he was done by year 2105 !!!

just kidding - I dont think I can win Transende without them - might be worth a try though...

if you want to skip the early years and start with copters - try the scenarios at my site - and show the world you are BOSS !!!

posted 06-17-99 03:46 AM ET            

I see and even use Copters in long games (for me). But Copters speed the end for my enemies...

I am glad that they are about the top of the tech I generally see. If they came earlier, the game would end earlier.

posted 06-17-99 08:57 AM ET            

Moreover, air strikes are not a problem when you got Air Power: SAM needlejet in every 2-3 bases, 'Hold' position. If some air unit attacks your ground unit, SAM needlejet flies and defend that ground unit. If morale is equal, you have 1-1 chance vs. 2 times stronger weapon.

posted 06-17-99 01:25 PM ET            

You should be on the bleeding edge of technology, UNLESS you are the Believers (and after you get probe tech, even then).

While its a rare game for me to gain Chopper tech in it, its even RARER that the opponents get AAA OR Air Superiority ability. I don't let them live that long as a rule. Mind you, the computer factions still seem to be able to build AAA units without having the right tech, but I am working on catching that. Maybe they are just swapping and upgrading instantly on that advance? Humm...

Anyways... Choppers and Jets are cheap! Bring an inteceptor along if you suspect problems. And never leave a chopper hanging in the air at the end of its turn, if possible. If the cities are close enough, you can get Interceptors scrambling to protect your attacking unit which is being attacked by defending interceptors. I've only managed that once, but it brought back memories of dog fighting chains in Dawn Patrol/Knights of the Air. Ah. Such a sweet game...

Heck, when I get a chance to play Air Wars, I sidetrack BIG TIME. I like to build cheap interceptor units for instant scrambling, and bleeding edge monsters of the air with Top-Top-Jet Air Superiority/Clean units to hang out defending a bomber. Usually, they can survive 3 to 6 attacks from defending Opponent Faction Interceptors... so losses are minimal. The take forever to build, but they are one serious Monster of the Air. Get 2 working in tandem (one is always on Air Escort), and you can bomb units in cities with impunity in the HEART of Hive or Believer territory. Get 3, and one Air Monster can repair while the others fly Air Cover. And They can perform air cover duties WHILE bombing enemy enhancements. If only I could throw in Deep Radar with Air Superiority and Clean, I'd be able to build Zues units... Rulers of the Sky!

Too bad you can't put Air Superiority on a Convential Missile and make a single shot Ground To Air auto-killer.

And its too bad that sensor range isn't a customization component like weapons or armor... That way, you'd pick the vision/intel range a unit has (air and sea gaining 2 automatically (Cost - 1 due to their base element Air/Water) when a basic tech is acquired). Deep Radar could then be research out to say 4 squares... then you could have some SERIOUS AWAC ability... And ships would be able to see transport fission foils for a LONG time...

posted 06-17-99 05:32 PM ET            

LoD: (and anyone else who's never been to one), a rave is the ultimate party... a whole night of the best music you've ever heard, the most beautiful lights and lasers, the happiest and most up-for-it crowd (20,000+ if it's a good one), the most uplifting (even spiritual) atmosphere... trust me, it's the best time you can have. Ever.
PS: You're right... Air Superiority 'Copters are definitely the Way To Go
NB: Trip: it's technically possible to rave without drugs... but then you have to crawl home at 4am, which is when the REALLY good DJs come on... so... the choice is yours! Oh and as for the "high school and college students"... make that "high school and college students AND ME!!"

Aredhran:
You don't have SouthPark???? Wow, you guys are missing out... it's an animated TV show, a satire of small town life as seen through the eyes of a bunch of deranged under-10s... apparently it was based on a real town in Canada, and the local residents are hopping mad about it, because their caricatures in the TV show aren't exactly complimentary!! You really have to see it... it's hilarious.

Nell... Official Rave Queen (even after all these years... )

PS: Oh yeah, back on topic... I still maintain that 'Copters are way overpowered... and yeah I know I could edit alpha.txt and power them down/raise their cost, etc, but I prefer to play with the original game .txt files and I can't believe that Firaxis didn't notice how immensely powerful 'Copters are. Get MMI first, win the game... or so it seems to me.

PPS: Darkstar: I like the idea of a single-shot ground-to-air dead cert auto-killer Naturally it would have to be expensive, but a very useful unit!

posted 06-17-99 05:44 PM ET            

Seriously, it seems that most of their testing revolved around the first 200 turns... simply for the fact that they won in that time frame. So they didn't give the typical [late] mid to late top techs any real testing once they found their favorite ways of "testing". (Which is funny, as this is what was suggested by us whiners to begin with...) It was the beta testers that asked for the Supreme Commander win option, and I don't think its a coincidence that you get it with choppers. What's the point of playing past that? Its a sure win in most games, after all.

posted 06-18-99 03:51 AM ET            

P.S. I play blind research on, and usualy dont have M/M-I till very late game. Why you're so sure that I dont use Air Power? 30-40 pentrators, 5-10 interceptors and 1-2 rovers. Every single base could be attacked up to 12 times. Usualy it's more then enough.

posted 06-21-99 01:20 PM ET            

I love well developed cities. But I won't extend the game just to run up my score, or give myself the chance to build everything possible in a city (although my core cities generally have everything of value to just everything. ) I find the early to mid game the interesting part of SMAC. It doesn't seem to hold together for balance or play as well past that point (about 150 turns and beyond).

But however you have fun, keep on SMACing. Its fun that we are after.

posted 06-21-99 02:35 PM ET            

I play transcend level usually on large or huge maps, and I've had choppers before 2200 a couple of times, and almost always have them by 2235 to 2240 (I also usually play with blind tech on, otherwise I could get them sooner)

I don't honestly use them very much at all, due to their range limitation. I prefer armored SAM needlejets, shore bombardment from ships, and cloaked Hovertanks as weapons of choice.

Aceplayer - I usually win at Transcend without using choppers much, or sometimes at all. I can win by transcendance, or however.

Darkstar and Nell - I know you want ultra long range SAMs, but they don't exist in the real world - aircraft are too hard to acquire and designate at very long range, and the pilots have plenty of reaction time and ECM and ECCM capabilities, etc.

Once you have magtubes, you only need one or two of these, but otherwise they are fairly useful, since the AI never armors aircraft that I've seen: 8-1-2x2 SAM rovers for a cheap solution, or 10-best-2or3xbest SAM and AAA rovers or hovertanks for front line ground based counterair capability.

I also make a few of my shard-neutronium battleships shard-neutronium-AAA-SAM Aegis Cruisers, for sea-borne anti-air defense.

posted 06-21-99 03:07 PM ET            

The normal "cruise missile" range would be silly for a SAM Missile, but i would only want a 4 to 6 tile range to meet my needs. And realism has NOTHING to do with SMAC. I think it would improve my play-ability of SMAC, and it may add to the A-non-I's ability to resist Air Campaigns. It already loves missiles. Think about the Air Defense that Yang or the other missile lovers could build up. You go to SMAC that Blue City, with a nasty X Chaos Chopper, and see a SuperSam scrambled out of that target city. BOOM. Time to send more choppers so you can Chop and Drop. Think about it.

posted 06-21-99 04:00 PM ET            

SMAC allows for a few more exotic combos, like drop tanks. That was tried by the US in the 50's with hilarious results. The idea was to give some real insertable tanks to the airborne divisions, instead of crappy light tanks that had to be flown in to airfields. Well, tanks weigh a lot and their center of gravity is both high and forward due to the weight of the gun tube and the frontal armor, so you can guess what happened. (hint - tanks don't bounce very well )

The problem with your missile idea is that why would you want to spend 60 or so on a missile to protect a 30 or so cost former? Plus, if you have an enemy within air strike range and with air strike capability, if you don't neutralize those cities, that's a play choice.

If you have a cheap, perfectly reliable "flic their bic" disposable SAM, then you simply remove air war as a viable option. Then somebody will want a HARM capability (perfectly realistic) and you'll go up into a more arcane level of combat detail into air defense suppression, plus you'd have to have different levels of accuracy/cost. Hanoi, Baghdad and Beograd have proven that air defenses can be shut down, or at least reduced greatly in effect.

Real attack choppers are never really vulnerable to long range fixed SAMs anyway, since they operate well below 100 feet and follow terrain for defensive purposes.

What you could do is have a fixed feature (like a sensor) that a terraformer could build in a bunch of turns that cost maintenance to the nearest city, or a city improvement itself, or both. The fixed feature idea would allow the enemy to attack it (SAM suppression "Wild Weasel" and Ironhand missions), and allow air defense to be constructed in strategic areas. The city improvement could be cool, but I think for play balance bombers and missiles should have the option to target facilities within the city. To be fair, this would have to be a probability of kill item, depending on the experience and tech of the attackers.

Better yet, modifiy my idea of a unit, and make a ranged attack capability for specialized SAM units, which would launch against incoming threats, but would not be consumed in one launch. These could have a range three, and a .25 initial chance against EACH incoming aircraft OR missile. If you have a huge need and don't want to use fighters, build two or three for an area air defense, and allow a weapon upgrade like a normal unit - so tachyon would have a .50 probability of kill against a missile needlejet, etc.

Any higher than that, and you'd simply bias the game too much against air power. I still wouldn't build them, since I don't give my enemies permission to operate aircraft within range of me. :P

posted 06-21-99 04:40 PM ET            

I also keep them in bases away from the front line so they dont intercept - when intercepting a needlejet - the needlejet gets its attack power, but if you attack the needlejet on your turn - it uses its defense.

Finally - as darkstar stated - always return to base , except those rare situations where you are 5 moves away - but can wipe out 5 enemy units and have less than 70% damage, so you can survive the turn.

posted 06-21-99 05:03 PM ET            

I remember that they didn't want to touch Hanoi because they gave the Enemy time to build a serious Air Defense. Baghdad was supposed to have had the best Air Defense set up outside a super-power, and we nailed their system by killing the brains (the local coordination center) and nothing else. Or so the PR goes. We teased the hell out of their Air Defense so we knew where those centers were. After the coordination centers were wiped out, we still Wild Weaselled an awful lot, as all that hardware was still functional, there just wasn't anyone to chart the flights to let the AD in country get the rest. Any operator that painted or shot at our planes repeatily got HARMed, amoung other things.

You saw 6 cost missile for a 3 cost Former, but the formers I'd want to protect would be at least 6 cost. Clean is a cost 2 item, by itself. And everything should be clean. If you got Fusion, that's a bunch, so you might as well have Rover Formers with Clean... Same costs as Infantry if you make it Fusion. And I'd rather not have to replace that Former unless forced to, so the new model formers might be sporting Trance or Armor or both. That makes it a serious investment worthy of Protecting. I can pop a bunch of conv. missiles and redeploy them quickly.

And I often pass on the smaller neighbors, even if they are in air range. I'd rather crush the big factions so that their cities can be assimilated the fastest. But it depends on what those small neighbors are. you can cut a deal with the less aggressive much easier than Yang and Miriam.

Besides, MtG, if your grunts deserve the best armor for defense so they don't die, the same goes for those blokes running the Forming EQ. They seem to have the most dangerous part. My military only has to take the enemy bases and eliminate military threats. Aside from that bit of excitement, they get to sit in a nice base garrison. The Formers are always facing those Worms and taking the brunt of the A-non-I actions.

While I understand your points about SMAC's combat model, I think they oversimplified it TOO much. Logistics is nothing more than support cost and time to deployment theatre, when its Logistics that is the REAL demon of organized conflict, and its greatest limiter. It's often the Master that determines who wins... SMAC is often a war of Attrition, and ignores most of the logistics that go with it.

Second, who says that future fighting would be based on current cavalry (Attack and get away, repeat) style combat? The Knight/Bolo/Defending Legions style is just as valid an arguement. But you won't ever see Bolo fighting in SMAC, its not set up for it. Just Cavalry tactics. Very disappointing to be locked into one mode of tactics. (Speed! Firepower! Cheap! Make More! Army Ant! Army Ant! Army Ant them!) Throw a bunch of cheap attacker units at any unit in SMAC and you win. Sometimes, it doesn't matter if you throw MILLION grunts. They just WON'T be able to take that lone defender in prepared territory, as they won't be able to bring their mass to bear on him... and have to go in single file to assault him. And all he has to do is drop a rock to kill you. That is why Generals demanded more ways to get at a defender... by air or by going around. But you really don't see that aspect in SMAC.

Naval units, the greatest representitive of the triad of Military Strength/Power (Speed/Mobilitiy, Firepower, and Armor) is totally SCREWED in SMAC. Just as the Knight was screwed by in-mass-volleys of cheap musketeers. A destroyer or frigate (foil ship) should be up the creek against a cruiser or battleship (cruiser ship) in one on one action. In a modern setting, they both have anti missile protection (although the larger ship will have more). If you forced an engagement between the two, the Battleship would blow the Destroyer away, regardless of who initiated the fight. This is due to more and bigger/better guns (targetting systems being equal), more mass, and more armor on the BS. But in SMAC, the victor is who fired the first shot (if reactors are equal). Bad bad bad. That's why its "Water Army Ants" when fighting for the Sea Lanes using Sea Power. Not that that happens much in typical SP SMAC.

Third, I think a unit should use its WEAPON to shoot back at the attacker, and have Armor be effective protection (as in real armor) and to take into account medics, damage control, and self repair technology. This would seem to be a better "Intuitive" set-up. Otherwise, why can't I just put those Missile or Chaos weapons into my defense slot? That is what the SMAC model really says... not that Plasma armor the breastplate on your troopers, but that they have a less than adequate impact weapons to fire back at the attacker. Heck, just give the attacker a 3:2 advantage for attacking, and multiply by weapon strength for that side to determine if your unit shot the other. Subtract hits. Check for disengagement. Repeat. That would solve the "Darkside" immediate war capability.

And finally... its the fun that counts. If you can mirror RL tactics in SMAC and get what you expect for results, then all the more credit to Brian and the gang for their design. But if it doesn't keep the level of fun up... trash it. That is why people play the game... not to learn to use highly mobile units as out riders to screen the main invasion/assault group. This isn't SimWar... its SMAC! If I want a serious game that accurately models war, I'll find a very good table top game.

Yes. I know that sounds a little contradictory in places, but that's just my opinion on what would improve the FUN of SMAC... if reality was as fun, we'd do that instead of playing SMAC. (Mind you, many people do.)

posted 06-21-99 11:05 PM ET            

* Open Alpha.txt
* Scroll down to chassis
* Edit copters to move 4, cost 14, prereq HomoSup

Which means they appear later and you are virtually never likely to be rushed by enemies with copters when you don't yet have needlejets (and you can't do this either, of course). You also tend to have a larger number of airbases, and so will the A.I. As well, the lifeforms are out and prowling by this stage. And you want the game to finish away, so you don't mind killing everything in 5 turns and finishing up.

posted 06-23-99 06:00 PM ET            

else their posts would take hours to type...
maybe days

posted 06-23-99 06:11 PM ET            

I still like the idea of a new one-shot, 100%-kill SAM unit... Michael, I know that this may be a little unrealistic (planes are notoriously hard to hit, even with the best guided missile), but many aspects of SMAC combat aren't especially realistic, so I don't think a SAM with an attack rating of, say, 20 would be too much of an unbalancing element, especially if it were fairly expensive to build. It would just be nice to be able take out those armoured jets and 'copters in one go.