Thread Master War Room: Paving the Road to Civ 3.

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Author Topic:   Thread Master War Room: Paving the Road to Civ 3.

yin26 posted 05-18-99 03:47 AM ET
Rather than e-mailing each other constantly, I'd like to invite all Thread Masters to come here and help me and each other decide basic issues like when should we close a thread and summarize it in a new one, how often, etc...
I offer this as a way to give Thread Masters a better sense of being part of a larger project, which you all most certainly are. I'll throw out some suggestions:
At 50 posts (or so), the thread should be closed like this:
*** THREAD CLOSED *** THREAD CLOSED *** THREAD CLOSED ***
The Tread Master will then continue in a new thread, using the orginal title plus a (II) or (III) or (IV) etc. at the end of the title as the thread evolves.
Importantly, your first post in that thread should be a very concise and organized summary of what has been collected so far. Thus, anybody who clicks on that thread can very easily see what has come up so far and what, roughly, the Thread Master sees as a priority (of course, the final order of these things will undergo great debate, leading eventually to a very refined MASTER LIST).
Well, that's my idea. What do you guys think?
yin26 posted 05-18-99 03:48 AM ET
Of course, a "Tread Master" is another job entirely. Apply for that one down the hall.
Octopus posted 05-18-99 04:09 AM ET
I believe that we should develop a rough template that we should stick at the beginning of every new thread, explaining the basic idea. We should also put at the very beginning a "please check the end of this thread to see if it has been marked closed" warning, so that people new to the discussion realize that they don't need to read 50 or so posts that may have already been summarized for them.
At the end of the thread, along with the "thread closed" message, we should include a pointer to the next thread in the series. Unfortunately there is no HTML in this forum, and Apolyton seems to only allow UBB (can you do decent hyperlinks with UBB?), so hyperlinking at the end of each thread seems to be a stretch.
For the numbering system, I would prefer a level of consistency. It seems like we are already calling things the "Master List v1.0" in the Apolyton forums. A 1.0 II seems ludicrous to me, it should be 1.1, or 1.01, or something. We should pick one or the other. I like the decimal numbering scheme, because then it is easier to tell the importance of a revision (e.g. the difference between 1.03 and 1.10 would be small, but the difference between 1.03 and 2.03 would be BIG, so people would know what they were in for). As long as we pick one system and stick with it, that's fine with me.
I don't have any suggestions for how to resolve this, but the cross-forum nature of this list (here and Apolyton) presents some problems. Some people only read one (like me, for the most part ) and some people feel compelled to repost what they've said in one forum into the other, so that everybody will see what they have posted. That seems a tad chaotic, but I don't see what a good solution is. I don't foresee a HUGE problem maintaining a presence on both sites, but I haven't really tried yet, so it may be harder than I suspect . It will probably be harder to people first starting with suggestion posting.
Octopus posted 05-18-99 04:25 AM ET
I think maintaining a list of references for each topic might be a good idea too. I just put out a call for on-line references for the Civ-II tech-tree in the Technology thread. There are probably examples of similar kinds of references for other topics (e.g. a list of all wonders and their effects).
yin26 posted 05-18-99 07:44 AM ET
Octopus,
Thanks for the feedback. It's REALLY helpful to me. I can see that the (v1.0) is causing confusion. I mean that number to represent the version of the MASTER LIST. So after the first mailing, it would become (v2.0) on so on.
If that is confusing, perhaps your system is better. I suppose people will figure out what we mean in either case, but I'm a freak for consistency, so let me know what you think.
Octopus posted 05-18-99 09:27 AM ET
If you never use the digits to the right of the decimal point, why have them? It seems like they were made for minor revisions.
JT 3 posted 05-18-99 10:10 AM ET
We have those digits so it looks more computerish.
JT 3 posted 05-18-99 10:13 AM ET
Oh, yin, in case you don't know, I'm JT in the Apolyton Forums.
yin26 posted 05-18-99 12:34 PM ET
JT = JT3
Got it.
Octopus,
Can you show me a sample in here of how you'd run mark the thread revisions and the MASTER LIST revisions? My head hurts right now. Thanks.
Octopus posted 05-18-99 03:09 PM ET
Initial thread in which suggestions are first solicited (already started): Master List v1.0.
First thread is closed, a new thread is started and a summary of the previous thread is posted: v1.1
Second thread is closed, a new thread is started and a summary of the previous two threads is posted, v1.2
At some prearranged time, all of the thread masters compile their lists together as a huge master list (each thread is likely to be at a different place, maybe Technology 1.3, Cheats 1.1, Units 1.7), and each thread starts the next major revision, 2.0
trippin daily posted 05-18-99 03:51 PM ET
Thread Master War Room. Damn Yin, your getting your troops ready quite early for your next flaming campaign. A whole year's worth of planning you will have done. I'm not going to go anywhere near the forums you will be lurking on then. It would be to damn hot. Seriously Yin, don't you think you are going to stockpile a lil too much gas if you start this early.
I have a suggestion for you "Thread Master's." Why don't you use the off topic forum, isn't that what it was made for. You could use the factions one as well. Nobody uses that one. Just the RPers. They are to caught up in their little fantasy world to notice the intrusion. As of now, you've successfully anniliated the game (smac) in the game forum (that game being smac). As of now the game is Civ 3, and the game forum now is Civ 3. Bring back SMAC.
Oh yeah, and Yin, you can't quit now on bitching about SMAC. What if the fourth patch doesn't do it. What then? I can't flame against the mighty wheel of fire alone.
Trippin Daily
-Delusions of Grandeur-
tfs99 posted 05-18-99 04:20 PM ET
>>>>> Yin26
I think Trippin Daily has a valid point. Wouldn't it be better just to consolidate all of the CivIII posting over at Apolyton?
With the double-double topic-topic problem here at alpha.owo the Civ3 topics are pushing the SMAC ones down in the list pretty quickly.
I think it would be better to have only one central forum for people to post and read new ideas. It would also cut down on your workload, only one place to manage rather than two.
All you would have to do over here at alpha.owo would be to post an "advert" topic that tells people the URL of the CivIII forum over at Apolyton. I'd be happy to maintain that advertising topic so that it bubbles to the top of the forum here every day or so.
SMC3 n ... Ted S.
evil_conquerer posted 05-18-99 04:58 PM ET
I think moving to Apolyton would be a bad decision. Remember, not everyone's at Apolyton. Problems notwithstanding, the official bulletin board is still the busiest and would generate the most ideas. It would be better to have mirror threads at both sites. Every time the thread master updates a list, he/she will collect posts from both sites and compile them into a master list for that topic. That list will then be posted on both sites, keeping both sites synchronized.
Also, I support Octopus's idea for numbering the different threads (v1.1, etc.).
tfs99 posted 05-18-99 06:46 PM ET
Alpha.owo.com may be the busiest for SMACers, but there are already 208 topics and 1607 posts in the CivIII General/Suggestion forum at Apolyton.
Compare that to the 14 or so topics and the 100 or so posts here. And I included the facetious and playful ones in those totals.
In this day and age of bookmark technology it's easy to add another and be just a few clicks away from Apolyton CivIII.
Here's the URL for those who would like to see _FULL_BLOWN_ Civ3 Mania (!):
http://apolyton.net/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=6
I know I've said this before, but the UBB version is much better over at Apolyton as well. You can:
- Edit your posts
- Put in links, e-mail addresses, images
- Use Bold and Italics and Quoting
All you do here is use smilies.
SMC3 n ... Ted S.
Shining1 posted 05-18-99 07:12 PM ET
Octopus: I think you're being a little optimistic about the number of posts that the AC CivIII threads are going to receive.
For now, it would pay to keep the AC CivIII threads distinct from those at Apolyton. The latter is by far the bigger site, and seems to attract a lot more noise than AC does. Once we get a few good suggestions, then we should assimilate with them, to get the best list.
Yin, do you plan to/are you currently running a similar thing at Apoltyon? Or are you anther proSMACer (like me)?
Shining1
TM of City mangament
(poss. TM of Social Engineering)
Shining1 posted 05-18-99 07:14 PM ET
Octopus: I think you're being a little optimistic about the number of posts that the AC CivIII threads are going to receive.
For now, it would pay to keep the AC CivIII threads distinct from those at Apolyton. The latter is by far the bigger site, and seems to attract a lot more noise than AC does. Once we get a few good suggestions, then we should assimilate with them, to get the best list.
Yin, do you plan to/are you currently running a similar thing at Apoltyon? Or are you another proSMACer (like me)?
Shining1
TM of City mangament
(poss. TM of Social Engineering)
yin26 posted 05-18-99 08:32 PM ET
I can see that no artificial intervention on my part is going to make people stay in one place or another. The ideal would be one place to do all this, like Apolyton, but many people stay here and only know about here, so that adds to the problem. Of course, we could post a big GO TO THE CIV3 site or something. I'm open to ideas on this, and like I said, it's pretty much out of my hands now.
If I could ask one thing, though, it would be that Thread Masters here ALSO work in the CIV3 area. If another Thread Master already has your topic, please send and e-mail to him so you can combine ideas. I'm finding that it is already really hard for me to go between the two forums, and we just barely started!
Ideas?
Shining1 posted 05-18-99 08:47 PM ET
The Civ3 site is at Apolyton, right?
I'll look into it.
Octopus posted 05-18-99 09:59 PM ET
Shining1: "Octopus: I think you're being a little optimistic about the number of posts that the AC CivIII threads are going to receive."
I don't know if I'm being optimistic or not. I personally am not crazy about Apolyton. I would greatly prefer a forum with HTML, like the Non-SMAC forum has. Apolyton only enables UBB. The power of HTML would seem to be of great benefit to this sort of project. I also think that some of the SMAC veterans might be tempted to return and contribute some ideas, people like Roland or Brother Greg. Those people mostly hang out in the Non-SMAC forums here.
I think a large part of the problem with the effort on this forum is the intense confusion about the whole thing. The threads are hard to pick out, there doesn't seem to be much consistency, it is hard to tell who is "in charge", etc., etc. For example, yin keeps reporting that Bell is the Technology thread master at Apolyton, even though I thought I was. Threads are inconsistently named, and it is hard to tell which threads are the "official" discussions, and which are just discussion about civ III, etc.
It also does not appear that the thread masters at the two sites are communicating. I didn't really see any indications at Apolyton that anyone had read this thread, or vice versa. This effort is not going to work unless WE can organize ourselves. There has been far to much "diving in" and not enough thinking. For example, the pronouncement "thou shalt indicate the first time that you post in a particular thread" was given on Apolyton, even though it is entirely unnecessary.
A bit of decentralized control will be necessary for a project of this type, but we cannot all run around like chickens with our heads cut off. I've been trying to get all of the thread masters to consolidate into a single "war room" thread so we can hash out some of these issues, but it seems as if my pleas have been falling on deaf ears.
All thread masters should almost certainly have accounts on both sites. Even if traffic here is not heavy (which I am not sure is a foregone conclusion) there will always be some discussion here.
Some topics that I feel need to be discussed:
Who "owns" which threads in which forums.
We need some disclaimer text to include at the beginning of the thread, so that nobody can accuse us of ripping off their ideas and not giving them credit. We need to explain what we will be delivering to Brian, and what our editorial powers are.
We need to figure out if we are going to try to steer people to one forum, try to keep the forums separate, do the "dual-summary" thing, or what. So far, it seems to me that the best solution is to encourage people to keep one line of thought in one forum, and then have the thread-masters cross-post the summarries.
We need to agree on a numbering scheme.
Are there any topics that aren't currently being "mastered" that people think should be discussed, but they don't have the time to be the master themselves?
Is there objection to continuing this thread at Apolyton? Several Apolytoners seemed opposed to discussing these matters here. I don't have particularly strong feelings, but I feel that a SMAC Forums presence is important. If we can't agree on a little more order and structure, I want to resign immediately, because I think that this will be a lot of work for a complete failure if we can't get better organized.
Shining1 posted 05-18-99 10:16 PM ET
'kay.
Darkstar posted 05-19-99 05:42 PM ET
Not that it counts for much, but...
GET CIV 3 OFF OF EVERYTHING BUT OFF TOPIC!
Sorry about that. Had to be said.
We will direct people that have something to say about Civ 3 to wherever you Might Masochists wish them to be. I would THINK that Apolyton would be better than here due to the threading and editting business. Last time I tried, HTML worked great for me as well. Have they recently disabled that? I will have to go look now.
Lobby Firaxis to have a NEW Civ 3 Fan Forum started, where all Firaxian Forum posters can send people to collect info.
You will need to set up a WEB Site. Apolyton becomes much nicer as MarkG and the gang will probably support you. On that web site, you can post EACH Master and Thread Sub Master List that has been accepted in a monthly business. Keep in mind that with Sid and Brian on the project, their joint publishers are going to give them 18 to 30 months. I mean, it will be the undisputed Son of Civ. Period. No rushee rushee to bet the competition. Just for money.
-Darkstar
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Author	Topic: Thread Master War Room: Paving the Road to Civ 3.
yin26	posted 05-18-99 03:47 AM ET Rather than e-mailing each other constantly, I'd like to invite all Thread Masters to come here and help me and each other decide basic issues like when should we close a thread and summarize it in a new one, how often, etc... I offer this as a way to give Thread Masters a better sense of being part of a larger project, which you all most certainly are. I'll throw out some suggestions: At 50 posts (or so), the thread should be closed like this: * THREAD CLOSED * THREAD CLOSED * THREAD CLOSED * The Tread Master will then continue in a new thread, using the orginal title plus a (II) or (III) or (IV) etc. at the end of the title as the thread evolves. Importantly, your first post in that thread should be a very concise and organized summary of what has been collected so far. Thus, anybody who clicks on that thread can very easily see what has come up so far and what, roughly, the Thread Master sees as a priority (of course, the final order of these things will undergo great debate, leading eventually to a very refined MASTER LIST). Well, that's my idea. What do you guys think?
yin26	posted 05-18-99 03:48 AM ET Of course, a "Tread Master" is another job entirely. Apply for that one down the hall.
Octopus	posted 05-18-99 04:09 AM ET I believe that we should develop a rough template that we should stick at the beginning of every new thread, explaining the basic idea. We should also put at the very beginning a "please check the end of this thread to see if it has been marked closed" warning, so that people new to the discussion realize that they don't need to read 50 or so posts that may have already been summarized for them. At the end of the thread, along with the "thread closed" message, we should include a pointer to the next thread in the series. Unfortunately there is no HTML in this forum, and Apolyton seems to only allow UBB (can you do decent hyperlinks with UBB?), so hyperlinking at the end of each thread seems to be a stretch. For the numbering system, I would prefer a level of consistency. It seems like we are already calling things the "Master List v1.0" in the Apolyton forums. A 1.0 II seems ludicrous to me, it should be 1.1, or 1.01, or something. We should pick one or the other. I like the decimal numbering scheme, because then it is easier to tell the importance of a revision (e.g. the difference between 1.03 and 1.10 would be small, but the difference between 1.03 and 2.03 would be BIG, so people would know what they were in for). As long as we pick one system and stick with it, that's fine with me. I don't have any suggestions for how to resolve this, but the cross-forum nature of this list (here and Apolyton) presents some problems. Some people only read one (like me, for the most part ) and some people feel compelled to repost what they've said in one forum into the other, so that everybody will see what they have posted. That seems a tad chaotic, but I don't see what a good solution is. I don't foresee a HUGE problem maintaining a presence on both sites, but I haven't really tried yet, so it may be harder than I suspect . It will probably be harder to people first starting with suggestion posting.
Octopus	posted 05-18-99 04:25 AM ET I think maintaining a list of references for each topic might be a good idea too. I just put out a call for on-line references for the Civ-II tech-tree in the Technology thread. There are probably examples of similar kinds of references for other topics (e.g. a list of all wonders and their effects).
yin26	posted 05-18-99 07:44 AM ET Octopus, Thanks for the feedback. It's REALLY helpful to me. I can see that the (v1.0) is causing confusion. I mean that number to represent the version of the MASTER LIST. So after the first mailing, it would become (v2.0) on so on. If that is confusing, perhaps your system is better. I suppose people will figure out what we mean in either case, but I'm a freak for consistency, so let me know what you think.
Octopus	posted 05-18-99 09:27 AM ET If you never use the digits to the right of the decimal point, why have them? It seems like they were made for minor revisions.
JT 3	posted 05-18-99 10:10 AM ET We have those digits so it looks more computerish.
JT 3	posted 05-18-99 10:13 AM ET Oh, yin, in case you don't know, I'm JT in the Apolyton Forums.
yin26	posted 05-18-99 12:34 PM ET JT = JT3 Got it. Octopus, Can you show me a sample in here of how you'd run mark the thread revisions and the MASTER LIST revisions? My head hurts right now. Thanks.
Octopus	posted 05-18-99 03:09 PM ET Initial thread in which suggestions are first solicited (already started): Master List v1.0. First thread is closed, a new thread is started and a summary of the previous thread is posted: v1.1 Second thread is closed, a new thread is started and a summary of the previous two threads is posted, v1.2 At some prearranged time, all of the thread masters compile their lists together as a huge master list (each thread is likely to be at a different place, maybe Technology 1.3, Cheats 1.1, Units 1.7), and each thread starts the next major revision, 2.0
trippin daily	posted 05-18-99 03:51 PM ET Thread Master War Room. Damn Yin, your getting your troops ready quite early for your next flaming campaign. A whole year's worth of planning you will have done. I'm not going to go anywhere near the forums you will be lurking on then. It would be to damn hot. Seriously Yin, don't you think you are going to stockpile a lil too much gas if you start this early. I have a suggestion for you "Thread Master's." Why don't you use the off topic forum, isn't that what it was made for. You could use the factions one as well. Nobody uses that one. Just the RPers. They are to caught up in their little fantasy world to notice the intrusion. As of now, you've successfully anniliated the game (smac) in the game forum (that game being smac). As of now the game is Civ 3, and the game forum now is Civ 3. Bring back SMAC. Oh yeah, and Yin, you can't quit now on bitching about SMAC. What if the fourth patch doesn't do it. What then? I can't flame against the mighty wheel of fire alone. Trippin Daily -Delusions of Grandeur-
tfs99	posted 05-18-99 04:20 PM ET >>>>> Yin26 I think Trippin Daily has a valid point. Wouldn't it be better just to consolidate all of the CivIII posting over at Apolyton? With the double-double topic-topic problem here at alpha.owo the Civ3 topics are pushing the SMAC ones down in the list pretty quickly. I think it would be better to have only one central forum for people to post and read new ideas. It would also cut down on your workload, only one place to manage rather than two. All you would have to do over here at alpha.owo would be to post an "advert" topic that tells people the URL of the CivIII forum over at Apolyton. I'd be happy to maintain that advertising topic so that it bubbles to the top of the forum here every day or so. SMC3 n ... Ted S.
evil_conquerer	posted 05-18-99 04:58 PM ET I think moving to Apolyton would be a bad decision. Remember, not everyone's at Apolyton. Problems notwithstanding, the official bulletin board is still the busiest and would generate the most ideas. It would be better to have mirror threads at both sites. Every time the thread master updates a list, he/she will collect posts from both sites and compile them into a master list for that topic. That list will then be posted on both sites, keeping both sites synchronized. Also, I support Octopus's idea for numbering the different threads (v1.1, etc.).
tfs99	posted 05-18-99 06:46 PM ET Alpha.owo.com may be the busiest for SMACers, but there are already 208 topics and 1607 posts in the CivIII General/Suggestion forum at Apolyton. Compare that to the 14 or so topics and the 100 or so posts here. And I included the facetious and playful ones in those totals. In this day and age of bookmark technology it's easy to add another and be just a few clicks away from Apolyton CivIII. Here's the URL for those who would like to see _FULL_BLOWN_ Civ3 Mania (!): http://apolyton.net/cgi-bin/ubb/forumdisplay.cgi?action=topics&number=6 I know I've said this before, but the UBB version is much better over at Apolyton as well. You can: - Edit your posts - Put in links, e-mail addresses, images - Use Bold and Italics and Quoting All you do here is use smilies. SMC3 n ... Ted S.
Shining1	posted 05-18-99 07:12 PM ET Octopus: I think you're being a little optimistic about the number of posts that the AC CivIII threads are going to receive. For now, it would pay to keep the AC CivIII threads distinct from those at Apolyton. The latter is by far the bigger site, and seems to attract a lot more noise than AC does. Once we get a few good suggestions, then we should assimilate with them, to get the best list. Yin, do you plan to/are you currently running a similar thing at Apoltyon? Or are you anther proSMACer (like me)? Shining1 TM of City mangament (poss. TM of Social Engineering)
Shining1	posted 05-18-99 07:14 PM ET Octopus: I think you're being a little optimistic about the number of posts that the AC CivIII threads are going to receive. For now, it would pay to keep the AC CivIII threads distinct from those at Apolyton. The latter is by far the bigger site, and seems to attract a lot more noise than AC does. Once we get a few good suggestions, then we should assimilate with them, to get the best list. Yin, do you plan to/are you currently running a similar thing at Apoltyon? Or are you another proSMACer (like me)? Shining1 TM of City mangament (poss. TM of Social Engineering)
yin26	posted 05-18-99 08:32 PM ET I can see that no artificial intervention on my part is going to make people stay in one place or another. The ideal would be one place to do all this, like Apolyton, but many people stay here and only know about here, so that adds to the problem. Of course, we could post a big GO TO THE CIV3 site or something. I'm open to ideas on this, and like I said, it's pretty much out of my hands now. If I could ask one thing, though, it would be that Thread Masters here ALSO work in the CIV3 area. If another Thread Master already has your topic, please send and e-mail to him so you can combine ideas. I'm finding that it is already really hard for me to go between the two forums, and we just barely started! Ideas?
Shining1	posted 05-18-99 08:47 PM ET The Civ3 site is at Apolyton, right? I'll look into it.
Octopus	posted 05-18-99 09:59 PM ET Shining1: "Octopus: I think you're being a little optimistic about the number of posts that the AC CivIII threads are going to receive." I don't know if I'm being optimistic or not. I personally am not crazy about Apolyton. I would greatly prefer a forum with HTML, like the Non-SMAC forum has. Apolyton only enables UBB. The power of HTML would seem to be of great benefit to this sort of project. I also think that some of the SMAC veterans might be tempted to return and contribute some ideas, people like Roland or Brother Greg. Those people mostly hang out in the Non-SMAC forums here. I think a large part of the problem with the effort on this forum is the intense confusion about the whole thing. The threads are hard to pick out, there doesn't seem to be much consistency, it is hard to tell who is "in charge", etc., etc. For example, yin keeps reporting that Bell is the Technology thread master at Apolyton, even though I thought I was. Threads are inconsistently named, and it is hard to tell which threads are the "official" discussions, and which are just discussion about civ III, etc. It also does not appear that the thread masters at the two sites are communicating. I didn't really see any indications at Apolyton that anyone had read this thread, or vice versa. This effort is not going to work unless WE can organize ourselves. There has been far to much "diving in" and not enough thinking. For example, the pronouncement "thou shalt indicate the first time that you post in a particular thread" was given on Apolyton, even though it is entirely unnecessary. A bit of decentralized control will be necessary for a project of this type, but we cannot all run around like chickens with our heads cut off. I've been trying to get all of the thread masters to consolidate into a single "war room" thread so we can hash out some of these issues, but it seems as if my pleas have been falling on deaf ears. All thread masters should almost certainly have accounts on both sites. Even if traffic here is not heavy (which I am not sure is a foregone conclusion) there will always be some discussion here. Some topics that I feel need to be discussed: Who "owns" which threads in which forums. We need some disclaimer text to include at the beginning of the thread, so that nobody can accuse us of ripping off their ideas and not giving them credit. We need to explain what we will be delivering to Brian, and what our editorial powers are. We need to figure out if we are going to try to steer people to one forum, try to keep the forums separate, do the "dual-summary" thing, or what. So far, it seems to me that the best solution is to encourage people to keep one line of thought in one forum, and then have the thread-masters cross-post the summarries. We need to agree on a numbering scheme. Are there any topics that aren't currently being "mastered" that people think should be discussed, but they don't have the time to be the master themselves? Is there objection to continuing this thread at Apolyton? Several Apolytoners seemed opposed to discussing these matters here. I don't have particularly strong feelings, but I feel that a SMAC Forums presence is important. If we can't agree on a little more order and structure, I want to resign immediately, because I think that this will be a lot of work for a complete failure if we can't get better organized.
Shining1	posted 05-18-99 10:16 PM ET 'kay.
Darkstar	posted 05-19-99 05:42 PM ET Not that it counts for much, but... GET CIV 3 OFF OF EVERYTHING BUT OFF TOPIC! Sorry about that. Had to be said. We will direct people that have something to say about Civ 3 to wherever you Might Masochists wish them to be. I would THINK that Apolyton would be better than here due to the threading and editting business. Last time I tried, HTML worked great for me as well. Have they recently disabled that? I will have to go look now. Lobby Firaxis to have a NEW Civ 3 Fan Forum started, where all Firaxian Forum posters can send people to collect info. You will need to set up a WEB Site. Apolyton becomes much nicer as MarkG and the gang will probably support you. On that web site, you can post EACH Master and Thread Sub Master List that has been accepted in a monthly business. Keep in mind that with Sid and Brian on the project, their joint publishers are going to give them 18 to 30 months. I mean, it will be the undisputed Son of Civ. Period. No rushee rushee to bet the competition. Just for money. -Darkstar