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Author Topic:   Sea bases bug?

Tim Train FIRAXIS posted 05-05-99 05:29 PM ET
Hi all,
We're working on version 4 of the game. In looking at the various issues, we found a complaint that sea bases do not update borders once they become land bases due to terraforming or earthquakes. I tested this out and could not replicate the problem. Does anyone have a save that might replicate this problem?
Thanks for your time,
Tim Train
Producer, FIRAXIS Games
eNo posted 05-05-99 05:57 PM ET
I havn't experianced a bug but in the replay, would it be possible to make the colours of sea territory and land territory different shades? I'd like to be able to tell where the land is after the replay is done.
Darkstar posted 05-05-99 06:05 PM ET
Jeff - Don't update WHICH borders? Land or Sea? I am planning on turning a couple of sea bases into land bases in my current game, and I want to know which to look for...
-Darkstar
micje posted 05-05-99 06:50 PM ET
I have had many problems with sea borders, but not that one.
Why is there a difference between sea borders and land borders anyway?
I had this problem: There is one Gaian city on a continent occupied by Spartans. It's a size nine city, and it has some room for farming. There is no sea in the direct vicinity.
For some reason, the sea level falls slightly, and the square on which the Gaian city is situated becomes a sea square. The Gaian city has a pressure dome, so, no problem...
NOT! The borders are now updated, and suddenly the Gaians have no squares left on which they may farm. Huge famine!
Actually, this was not a problem at all, because I played the Spartans, and was at war with the Gaians. But it did surprise me a lot.
eNo posted 05-05-99 06:56 PM ET
I think the sea borders and land borders should have the same radius. Plus land or sea inside a city's radii, regardless on which the city is situated, should become territory of the faction the city belongs too. It would make more sense this way.
trippin daily posted 05-05-99 07:01 PM ET
I think sea border's are fine as they stand now. Increasing them would severly weaken the moibility of naval power.
Trippin Daily
trippin daily posted 05-05-99 07:04 PM ET
Actually Darkstar, that is Tim your talking to, not Jeff. Damn, I've never heard of this bug, and they say they have found a complaint on it? That must have been only one complaint then, probably from someone who wasn't paying attention to what was going on. So I guess we can't complain anymore about FIRAXIS not listening to us.
Trippin Daily
-ok, we can complain, just we may be wrong in doing so, oh wait, the customer is always right -
JAMiAM posted 05-05-99 07:52 PM ET
Tim,
I think someone's been blowing smoke up your borehole. The borders DO auto adjust when a sea base gets terraformed onto dry land. I've had this happen both with my bases being TFed to dry land and with the AI bases being TFed to dry land. In both situations, the borders corrected themselves according to the standard model. Mind you, this is v3.0 that I'm talking about, but I don't recall this occurring during the earlier revs. either.
JAMiAM
yin26 posted 05-05-99 08:11 PM ET
I don't recall that problem, but Brother Greg mentioned a few days back that cities next to the water don't see their borders extending into the water, which allows pact brothers to set up a sea base right next to you, thus using up valuable resources, etc.
I haven't checked this myself, I'm just passing it on...
Q Cubed posted 05-05-99 08:46 PM ET
hmmm...
i have found the border problem quite annoying.
i have another bug:
occcasionally, when an isle of the deep attacks a sea base with a large population but no defense, the Pressure Dome gets destroyed...and the city is fine.
this, i have to say, is quite odd.
LackOfKnack posted 05-05-99 10:16 PM ET
LOL Q� - yes, quite odd. (Insert snitty English accent here.)

Lack
Darkstar posted 05-05-99 11:09 PM ET
OOPS!
Yep, sorry Tim. I guess I am used replying to Jeff for some reason...
So, maybe its the other way then gang? But it does sound like that Gaian city had its borders adjusted...
-Darkstar
Brother Greg posted 05-05-99 11:27 PM ET
I haven't seen that one either.
But as Yin pointed out, I did complain that land bases borders do not extend into the sea, even as far as the city border itself, which is very annoying.
JAMiAM posted 05-06-99 01:26 AM ET
Brother Greg,
Yes, it is annoying. But, as you know, it is a conscious design feature by Firaxis. And thus, not likely to be treated as a "bug".
JAMiAM
JAMiAM posted 05-06-99 01:36 AM ET
Darkstar,
Yes, the Gaian base became a "sea" base. Therefore, by the standard model, its control radius does not extend into land "controlled" by other factions. Remember, that for sea bases, even the 7 tile overland radius from any other faction's base is sufficient to deny the use of land tiles for the sea base. If the Gaians had been able to raise the land or lower the sea level so that the base was "dry" again, the borders would have readjusted.
JAMiAM
Couatl posted 05-06-99 02:51 AM ET
I'd like to see land bases exert sovereignty on water within artillery range (i.e. basically within their workable territory). Largely because it's annoying when you've cultivated a couple kelp farm/tidal harness combinations and, all in one go and totally out of your control:
1. The population of your base increases.
2. The game messes with your worker arrangment, yanking those working the kelp squares away and reassigning them to forests or whatever.
3. A nearby computer player's base gleefully grabs hold of the abandoned kelp squares, after which they are no longer available to you.
I find it absurd that, after one faction has clearly established a claim to some squares by developing them thoroughly, another can waltz in, build a base on the doorstep and suddenly seize ownership of the squares.
Aredhran posted 05-06-99 06:34 AM ET
It is *great* to have a member of the Firaxis team acknowledge that they're working on a new patch - er... Enhancement. It shows that the Company is paying attention to what we're saying !
Thanks you Tim, Jeff, Chris, Brian and all the other unknown members of the SMAC team at Firaxis !
Happy Aredhran
PS: Tim, sorry, but I never encountered that problem you mentioned... can't help you there
Jake Swindler posted 05-06-99 11:56 AM ET
I agree that territory should extend into the sea for certain land bases. I think that only costal bases should get this advantage. The sea area they control should be limted to the imediate area that can be used by the city for resources. It is annoying when you upgrade a city only to have its resources solen by the computer.
Just my 2 cents.
CatsAt8 posted 05-06-99 12:50 PM ET
Speaking of sea bases.I would like to see a patch to allow MOVEMENT of sea bases...say 1-2 hexes every 20 years or so.Be kinda interesting...
CatsAt8
bene4 posted 05-06-99 04:52 PM ET
So far I have found that sea bases work quite well, but have a pretty limited area of control - just barely outside of their resources...
Suggestion!!! On the replay, spartans are black. The water is black.... By the end of a game, there is a black screen. Also, this replay only reflects the current status of the world, and starts off as if all the terraforming and whatnot had been done at MY1. I know this is another variable, and would increase the size of the save...
but that's just me, taking advantage of the spotlight...
Possibility posted 05-06-99 06:03 PM ET
Why do borders even readjust, that is a major design flaw. Think about it, what if Canada were to found a new city on the border above Minnesota, so would that mean Canada gets all of Minnesota too, and the US would do nothing but say, hey, I guess that land is closer to your city, now you can have it.
If my faction puts down borders, then them damn borders better stay right where I put them and I dont want to hear anything about some other faction comming in and moving my borders. I mean that is my land, I already claimed it, if they claim it as there own, then that is an act of war. Just think about this in the real world, its completely rediculous. Was Brian Reynolds smoking something when he was writing the code for this. Brian, you have to stay away from them 10 cent crack stores until you finish the game.
Possibility
May the possibilities remain infinite.
BusterMan posted 05-06-99 10:10 PM ET
To possibilty:
This is a colony, not millenia old civilization. Land is up for grabs anywhere.
-Parker
trippin daily posted 05-06-99 11:46 PM ET
Yeah Possibility, Brian was smoking something. While he was writing the code for the borders, him and I were lit up like the sun. We thought it would be a good idea to make the borders move, because it adds strategy and dynamics to the game, and we were high as a kite at the time, so that made it even better getting to watch the borders move. That is amazing when your stoned. You should try it sometime.
Trippin Daily
- -
Koshko posted 05-06-99 11:49 PM ET
I think the zone of control should be 3 squares out on both Sea and Coastal bases.
I've ran into an occaisional problem where a newly built enemy sea colony steals a square from me even though I'm closer to it.
Koshko posted 05-06-99 11:55 PM ET
Possibility,
A cliam of land won't stop someone from taking it anyway. Look at what the US did to the Native Americans. The zone of controls are fine, although I'd like to see the boundaries stay the same with a Pact Faction.
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Author	Topic: Sea bases bug?
Tim Train FIRAXIS	posted 05-05-99 05:29 PM ET Hi all, We're working on version 4 of the game. In looking at the various issues, we found a complaint that sea bases do not update borders once they become land bases due to terraforming or earthquakes. I tested this out and could not replicate the problem. Does anyone have a save that might replicate this problem? Thanks for your time, Tim Train Producer, FIRAXIS Games
eNo	posted 05-05-99 05:57 PM ET I havn't experianced a bug but in the replay, would it be possible to make the colours of sea territory and land territory different shades? I'd like to be able to tell where the land is after the replay is done.
Darkstar	posted 05-05-99 06:05 PM ET Jeff - Don't update WHICH borders? Land or Sea? I am planning on turning a couple of sea bases into land bases in my current game, and I want to know which to look for... -Darkstar
micje	posted 05-05-99 06:50 PM ET I have had many problems with sea borders, but not that one. Why is there a difference between sea borders and land borders anyway? I had this problem: There is one Gaian city on a continent occupied by Spartans. It's a size nine city, and it has some room for farming. There is no sea in the direct vicinity. For some reason, the sea level falls slightly, and the square on which the Gaian city is situated becomes a sea square. The Gaian city has a pressure dome, so, no problem... NOT! The borders are now updated, and suddenly the Gaians have no squares left on which they may farm. Huge famine! Actually, this was not a problem at all, because I played the Spartans, and was at war with the Gaians. But it did surprise me a lot.
eNo	posted 05-05-99 06:56 PM ET I think the sea borders and land borders should have the same radius. Plus land or sea inside a city's radii, regardless on which the city is situated, should become territory of the faction the city belongs too. It would make more sense this way.
trippin daily	posted 05-05-99 07:01 PM ET I think sea border's are fine as they stand now. Increasing them would severly weaken the moibility of naval power. Trippin Daily
trippin daily	posted 05-05-99 07:04 PM ET Actually Darkstar, that is Tim your talking to, not Jeff. Damn, I've never heard of this bug, and they say they have found a complaint on it? That must have been only one complaint then, probably from someone who wasn't paying attention to what was going on. So I guess we can't complain anymore about FIRAXIS not listening to us. Trippin Daily -ok, we can complain, just we may be wrong in doing so, oh wait, the customer is always right -
JAMiAM	posted 05-05-99 07:52 PM ET Tim, I think someone's been blowing smoke up your borehole. The borders DO auto adjust when a sea base gets terraformed onto dry land. I've had this happen both with my bases being TFed to dry land and with the AI bases being TFed to dry land. In both situations, the borders corrected themselves according to the standard model. Mind you, this is v3.0 that I'm talking about, but I don't recall this occurring during the earlier revs. either. JAMiAM
yin26	posted 05-05-99 08:11 PM ET I don't recall that problem, but Brother Greg mentioned a few days back that cities next to the water don't see their borders extending into the water, which allows pact brothers to set up a sea base right next to you, thus using up valuable resources, etc. I haven't checked this myself, I'm just passing it on...
Q Cubed	posted 05-05-99 08:46 PM ET hmmm... i have found the border problem quite annoying. i have another bug: occcasionally, when an isle of the deep attacks a sea base with a large population but no defense, the Pressure Dome gets destroyed...and the city is fine. this, i have to say, is quite odd.
LackOfKnack	posted 05-05-99 10:16 PM ET LOL Q� - yes, quite odd. (Insert snitty English accent here.) Lack
Darkstar	posted 05-05-99 11:09 PM ET OOPS! Yep, sorry Tim. I guess I am used replying to Jeff for some reason... So, maybe its the other way then gang? But it does sound like that Gaian city had its borders adjusted... -Darkstar
Brother Greg	posted 05-05-99 11:27 PM ET I haven't seen that one either. But as Yin pointed out, I did complain that land bases borders do not extend into the sea, even as far as the city border itself, which is very annoying.
JAMiAM	posted 05-06-99 01:26 AM ET Brother Greg, Yes, it is annoying. But, as you know, it is a conscious design feature by Firaxis. And thus, not likely to be treated as a "bug". JAMiAM
JAMiAM	posted 05-06-99 01:36 AM ET Darkstar, Yes, the Gaian base became a "sea" base. Therefore, by the standard model, its control radius does not extend into land "controlled" by other factions. Remember, that for sea bases, even the 7 tile overland radius from any other faction's base is sufficient to deny the use of land tiles for the sea base. If the Gaians had been able to raise the land or lower the sea level so that the base was "dry" again, the borders would have readjusted. JAMiAM
Couatl	posted 05-06-99 02:51 AM ET I'd like to see land bases exert sovereignty on water within artillery range (i.e. basically within their workable territory). Largely because it's annoying when you've cultivated a couple kelp farm/tidal harness combinations and, all in one go and totally out of your control: 1. The population of your base increases. 2. The game messes with your worker arrangment, yanking those working the kelp squares away and reassigning them to forests or whatever. 3. A nearby computer player's base gleefully grabs hold of the abandoned kelp squares, after which they are no longer available to you. I find it absurd that, after one faction has clearly established a claim to some squares by developing them thoroughly, another can waltz in, build a base on the doorstep and suddenly seize ownership of the squares.
Aredhran	posted 05-06-99 06:34 AM ET It is great to have a member of the Firaxis team acknowledge that they're working on a new patch - er... Enhancement. It shows that the Company is paying attention to what we're saying ! Thanks you Tim, Jeff, Chris, Brian and all the other unknown members of the SMAC team at Firaxis ! Happy Aredhran PS: Tim, sorry, but I never encountered that problem you mentioned... can't help you there
Jake Swindler	posted 05-06-99 11:56 AM ET I agree that territory should extend into the sea for certain land bases. I think that only costal bases should get this advantage. The sea area they control should be limted to the imediate area that can be used by the city for resources. It is annoying when you upgrade a city only to have its resources solen by the computer. Just my 2 cents.
CatsAt8	posted 05-06-99 12:50 PM ET Speaking of sea bases.I would like to see a patch to allow MOVEMENT of sea bases...say 1-2 hexes every 20 years or so.Be kinda interesting... CatsAt8
bene4	posted 05-06-99 04:52 PM ET So far I have found that sea bases work quite well, but have a pretty limited area of control - just barely outside of their resources... Suggestion!!! On the replay, spartans are black. The water is black.... By the end of a game, there is a black screen. Also, this replay only reflects the current status of the world, and starts off as if all the terraforming and whatnot had been done at MY1. I know this is another variable, and would increase the size of the save... but that's just me, taking advantage of the spotlight...
Possibility	posted 05-06-99 06:03 PM ET Why do borders even readjust, that is a major design flaw. Think about it, what if Canada were to found a new city on the border above Minnesota, so would that mean Canada gets all of Minnesota too, and the US would do nothing but say, hey, I guess that land is closer to your city, now you can have it. If my faction puts down borders, then them damn borders better stay right where I put them and I dont want to hear anything about some other faction comming in and moving my borders. I mean that is my land, I already claimed it, if they claim it as there own, then that is an act of war. Just think about this in the real world, its completely rediculous. Was Brian Reynolds smoking something when he was writing the code for this. Brian, you have to stay away from them 10 cent crack stores until you finish the game. Possibility May the possibilities remain infinite.
BusterMan	posted 05-06-99 10:10 PM ET To possibilty: This is a colony, not millenia old civilization. Land is up for grabs anywhere. -Parker
trippin daily	posted 05-06-99 11:46 PM ET Yeah Possibility, Brian was smoking something. While he was writing the code for the borders, him and I were lit up like the sun. We thought it would be a good idea to make the borders move, because it adds strategy and dynamics to the game, and we were high as a kite at the time, so that made it even better getting to watch the borders move. That is amazing when your stoned. You should try it sometime. Trippin Daily - -
Koshko	posted 05-06-99 11:49 PM ET I think the zone of control should be 3 squares out on both Sea and Coastal bases. I've ran into an occaisional problem where a newly built enemy sea colony steals a square from me even though I'm closer to it.
Koshko	posted 05-06-99 11:55 PM ET Possibility, A cliam of land won't stop someone from taking it anyway. Look at what the US did to the Native Americans. The zone of controls are fine, although I'd like to see the boundaries stay the same with a Pact Faction.