Is there a point where the AI stops cheating?

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Author Topic:   Is there a point where the AI stops cheating?

Greyhawk posted 05-04-99 05:16 PM ET
I've played a few games now and have come to the absolute conclusion that the AI most definately cheats. Only in a few things mind - namely omniscient AI vis a vis probe teams and infinite conventional missiles that seem to have no range limitations.
How does the AI make a bee line for your probe teams no matter where they are on the map? I thought there was such a thing as 'fog of war' but this seems only to apply to the Human Players. Every single time, unfailingly the AI finds your probe teams even hidden in xenofungus, well away from sensors or even in the middle of an ocean!
It also seems strange that Concentional Missiles are able to traverse far into your territory when your own missiles have little chance of hitting the closest enemy bases. On many occasions I've had missiles hitting cities far inland and well within my territory on a huge map. Once I had a city in an inland sea that was more or less in the middle of a huge continent that was owned by my faction, it got hit by missiles so much I just left it ungarrisoned in the end.
Please stop the AI cheating.
Urban Ranger posted 05-05-99 04:13 AM ET
Computer players (some call them AI, but I found the term an oxymoron) always cheats -- i.e. they have things and abilities that you don't have and these are not stated clearly in the manual -- simply because they can't play as well as humans do.
Some cheats are fine, like having extra resources. Some are intolerable, such as using loaded dice, attacking with random events, or just being omniscient (like having Yang demanding your newest tech when you know he has no way of knowing what you have).
Switching production during your turn -- happens extremely often when you have just eliminated the last defender of an enemy city -- counts as a cheat.
Sometimes though, games don't cheat. It's just that the programmers couldn't come up with a decent (pseudo) random number generator. For example, in one game, I failed to capture a worm in 10 or so encounters dispite I had a +3 Planet rating.
JAMiAM posted 05-05-99 01:07 PM ET
Greyhawk,
The AI stops cheating when you stop playing, get over it, learn how it does, adapt your strategies to acommodate the cheats, beat it at its own game and then laugh loudly at the monitor when you kick its butt. You'll have more fun that way.
Urban Ranger,
In v3.0 they tweaked the mindworm capture rules to have the capture % reduce with each boil that you have captured. I'm not sure if this % floats back up if they're subsequentally eliminated, though. There is a bottom line capture %, I think that it's 10%.
JAMiAM
Greyhawk posted 05-05-99 03:31 PM ET
Hmm, the computer cheats to overcome shortcomings in the programming of the AI it seems.
IMHO the computer has far too many advantages over the Human player, especially in 'diplomacy'. Why, when you instigate a commlink, do you NEVER get to put your demands first for instance? There must be a better way to handle diplomatic comms than exists in the game. How come the Computer can, in the middle of 'your' turn open a commlink or change production? As you say, how is it possible that other factions know what tech level you're on without using probe teams? For that matter, I have never yet had a Computer controlled Probe Team fail a mission. How can other factions, when they have virtually no energy left, buy a units' production in a beseiged city?
Having said that, I haven't lost a game yet so the AI programmers must need a good kick up the arse to tweak the other factions into providing a challenge without obvious cheats.
JAMiAM posted 05-05-99 03:40 PM ET
Greyhawk,
Don't look on them as cheats so much as necessary AI "enhancements." As you mentioned, you haven't lost yet, only been frustrated by your lack of ability to do exactly what the AI can do. It certainly lacks the capability to do a lot of things you can do. Rise to the challenge and accept the necessary difference between you and the program. Most of all, have fun. It's the name of the game.
JAMiAM
Urban Ranger posted 05-07-99 07:57 AM ET
JAMiAM,
Oh, so they tweaked the rules. It doesn't say so in the readme.txt. *shrug* It had to be some Gaian players kicked the living bejesus out of the computer players with lotsa mind worms.
Oh sure a human can do a lot more things than the silly computer players, but having the program, supposedly impartial, on the side of the computer players frustrates the hell out of people.
CatsAt8 posted 05-07-99 11:54 AM ET
My thoughts...unimportant as they be for some.
I dont know if its an age thing...but I have never read so many posts by a bunch of whiney cry babies when it comes to the AI of a game.I have seen on this board,posts by folks pissing and moaning.ITS A FREAKING GAME...its NOT a human that can anticipate nor have morals...it is a program written within certain parameters....I have seen POSTS by whiners that basically EXPECT the AI to read the HUMAN players mind.
Nothing is perfect...so either accept that or dont play the game....or learn programming and do it yourself.
PHEW !!!
LOL...I had more but whats the point ??
LOL
CatsAt8
PS. This isnt directed at JAMiAM or the *realists*.

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Author	Topic: Is there a point where the AI stops cheating?
Greyhawk	posted 05-04-99 05:16 PM ET I've played a few games now and have come to the absolute conclusion that the AI most definately cheats. Only in a few things mind - namely omniscient AI vis a vis probe teams and infinite conventional missiles that seem to have no range limitations. How does the AI make a bee line for your probe teams no matter where they are on the map? I thought there was such a thing as 'fog of war' but this seems only to apply to the Human Players. Every single time, unfailingly the AI finds your probe teams even hidden in xenofungus, well away from sensors or even in the middle of an ocean! It also seems strange that Concentional Missiles are able to traverse far into your territory when your own missiles have little chance of hitting the closest enemy bases. On many occasions I've had missiles hitting cities far inland and well within my territory on a huge map. Once I had a city in an inland sea that was more or less in the middle of a huge continent that was owned by my faction, it got hit by missiles so much I just left it ungarrisoned in the end. Please stop the AI cheating.
Urban Ranger	posted 05-05-99 04:13 AM ET Computer players (some call them AI, but I found the term an oxymoron) always cheats -- i.e. they have things and abilities that you don't have and these are not stated clearly in the manual -- simply because they can't play as well as humans do. Some cheats are fine, like having extra resources. Some are intolerable, such as using loaded dice, attacking with random events, or just being omniscient (like having Yang demanding your newest tech when you know he has no way of knowing what you have). Switching production during your turn -- happens extremely often when you have just eliminated the last defender of an enemy city -- counts as a cheat. Sometimes though, games don't cheat. It's just that the programmers couldn't come up with a decent (pseudo) random number generator. For example, in one game, I failed to capture a worm in 10 or so encounters dispite I had a +3 Planet rating.
JAMiAM	posted 05-05-99 01:07 PM ET Greyhawk, The AI stops cheating when you stop playing, get over it, learn how it does, adapt your strategies to acommodate the cheats, beat it at its own game and then laugh loudly at the monitor when you kick its butt. You'll have more fun that way. Urban Ranger, In v3.0 they tweaked the mindworm capture rules to have the capture % reduce with each boil that you have captured. I'm not sure if this % floats back up if they're subsequentally eliminated, though. There is a bottom line capture %, I think that it's 10%. JAMiAM
Greyhawk	posted 05-05-99 03:31 PM ET Hmm, the computer cheats to overcome shortcomings in the programming of the AI it seems. IMHO the computer has far too many advantages over the Human player, especially in 'diplomacy'. Why, when you instigate a commlink, do you NEVER get to put your demands first for instance? There must be a better way to handle diplomatic comms than exists in the game. How come the Computer can, in the middle of 'your' turn open a commlink or change production? As you say, how is it possible that other factions know what tech level you're on without using probe teams? For that matter, I have never yet had a Computer controlled Probe Team fail a mission. How can other factions, when they have virtually no energy left, buy a units' production in a beseiged city? Having said that, I haven't lost a game yet so the AI programmers must need a good kick up the arse to tweak the other factions into providing a challenge without obvious cheats.
JAMiAM	posted 05-05-99 03:40 PM ET Greyhawk, Don't look on them as cheats so much as necessary AI "enhancements." As you mentioned, you haven't lost yet, only been frustrated by your lack of ability to do exactly what the AI can do. It certainly lacks the capability to do a lot of things you can do. Rise to the challenge and accept the necessary difference between you and the program. Most of all, have fun. It's the name of the game. JAMiAM
Urban Ranger	posted 05-07-99 07:57 AM ET JAMiAM, Oh, so they tweaked the rules. It doesn't say so in the readme.txt. shrug It had to be some Gaian players kicked the living bejesus out of the computer players with lotsa mind worms. Oh sure a human can do a lot more things than the silly computer players, but having the program, supposedly impartial, on the side of the computer players frustrates the hell out of people.
CatsAt8	posted 05-07-99 11:54 AM ET My thoughts...unimportant as they be for some. I dont know if its an age thing...but I have never read so many posts by a bunch of whiney cry babies when it comes to the AI of a game.I have seen on this board,posts by folks pissing and moaning.ITS A FREAKING GAME...its NOT a human that can anticipate nor have morals...it is a program written within certain parameters....I have seen POSTS by whiners that basically EXPECT the AI to read the HUMAN players mind. Nothing is perfect...so either accept that or dont play the game....or learn programming and do it yourself. PHEW !!! LOL...I had more but whats the point ?? LOL CatsAt8 PS. This isnt directed at JAMiAM or the realists.