posted 08-17-99 05:06 PM ET            

How do you know when you're in love?

posted 08-18-99 07:37 AM ET         

Believe me when you are you know.

Beta-1

posted 08-18-99 09:04 PM ET         

Thanks for starting this most interesting thread. My contribution:

The two broad "definitions" of love that seem to emerge the most are the ones described as
(1) "I love you" = "you make me feel good" or "things about you make me feel good"
(2) "I love you" = "I will do everything in my power to meet your needs"

[I think the acient Greeks had four 'love' word-concepts rather than my two, can anyone elaborate?]

Sometimes people think the two ideas are exclusive and try and figure out which is correct. Some people try and say the two ideas are equal, like if one exists the other must follow and vice versa.

When people say "love is a verb" I think they're concentrating on the second.

When you hear "that's not love it's lust" or "obsession" you're pretty much dealing with the first kind.

Neither kind is bad, but it's good to be able to differentiate. For the first is basically involuntary and impacts your motives, and the second is entirely voluntary i.e. your actions. Obviously, your motives and actions are going to be linked.

I happen to think that by the first definition you are in love. Also that by the second definition, you're not. Not that there's anything bad about that, since at this stage you can't even tell if she has "needs".

So please ponder this: if you ask her out and she 'rejected' you, will you love her the same as you do now?

posted 08-18-99 09:55 PM ET            

Agape = brotherly love
Eros = lust

posted 08-18-99 11:59 PM ET            

Kangawallafox- If by some bizzare set of circumstances took place and I was in a situtation where I would ask her out, and she rejected (which would most likely happen) me, I would still love her. I don't think there is anything short of a frontal lambotomy (sp?) that would change my feelings for her.

posted 08-19-99 07:02 AM ET         

Don't want to put a damper on things, but in my experience it is us shy ones that wait until someone means just about everything before we find the courage to do something. So we set ourselves up for major disappointment if she doesn't respond in the same way. But who knows ? Nothing ventured, nothing gained. You don't want to sit around later in life bemoaning what could have been.

It's just that I have had more success in achieving a relationship when it has developed from friendship, than when it went though its exciting lustful stage.

Which brings me on to my definition of love, that I have yet to convince anyone of.

I think it is, at least at the top level, a combination of friendship and lust. Then most scenarios where love is used to describe the situation, are covered. It can range from near total lust (100% ?) which is when you don't really know someone and still ache for them, to near total friendship (100% ?) when you have no sexual inclinations but would do anything for them. Thus we can speak of so many different types of love, from love of one's fellow man, to lustful puppy love, and adoration of famous people etc. A good relationship develops from high lust content at the start, to high friendship content much later.

But who cares. Go for it anyway, and the best of luck.

As far as specific advice is concerned, it is the usual, start by smiling (not dopily ) get on to a few words of conversation, "Hello" is a good start. After a chat or two, if you seem to be getting on, then she is less likely not to take you seriously. Don't leave it too long before asking though. (Nor be too eager.) Play it by ear. Ask yourself how much attention you would like from someone, suddenly out of the blue. Enough to feel flattered, but not so much you feel pushed.

Finding a common interest is a good way of getting close too. But beware, all this from someone who didn't rate as Casanova at any time in the past .

posted 08-19-99 07:09 AM ET         

Probably loads of ways, but I thought you wanted her to take you seriously ?

Is she going to be impressed by someone who doesn't even care enough to speak to her ? Look at it from her point of view. Does she want someone self confident (or seems so) to treat her as an equal, or someone who is so soppy that he's there drooling 3 streets away ?

posted 08-19-99 10:30 PM ET            

Don't try to pressure her into anything...

With me, (dunno if it always works) she took the lead in the relationship once it was stable.

posted 08-20-99 08:27 AM ET         

don't care about her enough to talk to her refers to her likely perception of you if you don't make a casual approach, rather than how you feel the real truth of the matter is.

I'm sure I learnt what American words like "sophomore" meant at one time, but darned if I can recall now

posted 08-20-99 08:27 AM ET         

don't care about her enough to talk to her refers to her likely perception of you if you don't make a casual approach, rather than how you feel the real truth of the matter is.

I'm sure I learnt what American words like "sophomore" meant at one time, but darned if I can recall now

posted 08-21-99 05:16 PM ET            

" you dont get many chances at happyness, so when u get one GO FOR IT otherwise you'll regret it 4 the rest of your life"

ok i've waffled on for a while so i'll let u in on a secret. ok?
1) i am a 19 yr old male whom is english
2) i LOVE some one whom used to work at the same shop as me
3) i asked her out
4) she said no

that was the easy part
i met her 1 year ago
the second she walked throught the door i thought "WOW"
over 6 months later i still wish she had said yes
i don't want her body
i want her mind
i want to talk to her without my subconence smegging up my words
i want to listen to her breathing all night
i want her to say " I love you" and MEAN IT

ok i'm crying now so i'll c u later

posted 09-14-99 02:51 PM ET         

Beta-1

posted 09-16-99 06:31 AM ET            

We were fairly good friends, really close actually but when I told her how I felt (after a large helping of dutch courage) she ran off and hid in the toilet for half an hour. Then she came back and we talked a bit and it was all not too bad. (Only took me a year to get over it) I can laugh about it now, actually even though nothing ever happened the relief after I'd told her was intense. Shortly after that she didn't speak to me for six months in a stupid girly overreaction to something I said to someone. Which was wrong but not as bad as she made out. I spent ages cutting myself up about being such an idiot before I could even consider that actually it's not entirely my fault. Patheting. I could start getting over it and having fun again. Actually I feel a bit stupid about the whole thing now.

The hardest thing is accepting that they really don't 'like you in that way', it doesn't matter what you might think of them, and moving on before you mess yourself up so much that you destroy the friendship. Which might happen if you freak her out too much or you feel too hurt to talk to her.

John III, it probably hurts like hell at the moment if you can let go of any hope that anything will happen (this might sound harsh) then that's the first step to recovery.

Sometimes the girl you think you want gets eclipsed by someone who comes out of nowhere. In fact, most times I've started seeing people it's been random, either because I hadn't met them before or I hadn't even thought about it before.

posted 09-16-99 06:43 AM ET            

hows tricks

whats happened to alphaman?

do the rest of ya remember me???

posted 09-16-99 01:32 PM ET            

At the end of classes one day I got to thinking about the whole situation. I knew that it would be really difficult to tell her how I felt, but it would be even harder to live the rest of my life wondering what could have been. So I just thought to myself "fuck it, I'm gonna tell her as soon as class was over" So I went to the area where she got her ride home (making sure none of her friends were around as not to embarras her), slowly approached her and said I had something I needed to tell her. Right there, I just blurted out just how I felt, all of the stupid things I did involving her and finaly I just told her I loved her. Her face turned a little red (I was really worried at this moment), but then, she looked up at me and smiled. She told me she tought that was really sweet and said that no one had ever said anything like that to her before. Right then her ride pulled up and she told me that she would talk to me when after the weekend was over. Unfortunatly, we got a few days off for the Hurricane and we haven't returned to school yet (BTW this happened last Friday).

posted 09-16-99 04:10 PM ET         

As for the hurricane I think that counts as something beyond your control
- as long as she hasnt been washed out to sea. (If she has been washed out to sea then I've just commited the worst foot/mouth tyoe incident possible).

Anyway I was watching Ally McBeal last night and the "Funny little man" told the "Blond icey one" that he hadn't pushed the issue because by moving forward he felt it just brought the end of the relationship closer.

The really sad bit is I started sympathising with him!

I really need to get out more

Beta-1

posted 09-17-99 05:56 AM ET            

You're making a classic mistake, one that all teenage boys make at least once in their lives (see Dickens' "Great Expectations" re: Estelle). Learn these rules, and LIVE by them, for the rest of your life:

1. If a girl ALREADY likes you, she WANTS you to ask her out, so she's not going to reject you; conversely, if she rejects you she doesn't like you. If she likes you there's no risk in asking her out. If she doesn't like you there's still no risk because she's a complete writeoff, because of rule #2:

2. If a girl does NOT like you, she never will, so any further effort is wasted. If you can parlay a rejection into a friendship, however, do so, because of rule #3:

3. All girls maintain social networks with other girls, and if you are friends she will expose you to this network, thus increasing your chances of finding a girl who is interested. This is vitally important even if you're a total dweeb, because of rule #4:

4. It only takes one. Even if only 1 in 100 girls reacts positively to you, and you meet 400 girls, surely with 4 from which to choose you can find 1 whom you like. It also is not really a matter of looks or lowering your expectations or anything; girls whom you might think are way out of your league will be interested in you, while some of the most maladjusted wackos in the world whom you might think would be desperate wouldn't give you the time of day.

Girls' tastes are inexplicable; don't assume anything about where your future girlfriend might come from or what she might look like. Every girl I've ever dated has either been drop-dead gorgeous or Disneyland cute; it wasn't anything I did, I was just lucky. It also helped that I quite accidentally followed rule #5:

5. It is better to rule in hell than serve in heaven -- NEVER be a "wannabe". I was King of the Nerds in high school, and I always wore that label in defiance, believing that girls would never go out with me but taking enough pride in myelf that I felt the sacrifice worth it. The truth is by my being "King" of ANYTHING there was a small cadre' of girls who actually thought I was cool, I just didn't realize it. Another guy I knew tried to be one of the "cool kids" except he wasn't -- he didn't "rate" as the song goes, he was just a wannabe, and as far as I know he didn't even get a prom date. Not many girls are attracted to nerds, but not ANY girls are attracted to wannabe's, so play to your strengths, be yourself, and be proud of whatever it is you do. Earning some fame for it is good, too, because some girls are automatically attracted to you just because they've heard your name before, or because they read your column in the school paper, or because you've won some national award (even the origami-decoy-duck-folding award is something to somebody). Whatever works. Just be prepared; be ready for the unexpected:

During the time I thought of myself as a "nerd" I dated 2 Catholic girls, a Korean girl, a black girl, a tall girl, a short girl, an athletic girl, an ex-marine (it was a "friends-date"; she was 8 years older than me), a Girl Scout, three geniuses, a Christian fundamentalist, two Atheists, a future lesbian(!), an artist, two musicians, and a computer programmer. (Some of these are the same girl, like the ex-marine was also the computer programmer, while it was one of the musicians who turned out to be a lesbian!)

Because of my own stupidity I have blown some incredible opportunities with: a gymnastics teacher(!), an artist, a writer, a really friendly and fun "girl-next-door", a science major, a musician, a business major, and maybe some others but I'm not so sure about them ...

Now, I was, by my own admission, a nerd, and yet I had a shot at a drop-dead gorgeous, intelligent, and above all energetic gymnastics teacher (we were both 19). I lost out simply because I didn't believe it was possible. The signs were there like an open book, I just couldn't believe what I was reading and so missed out on an unbelievable opportunity.

The way it works is so simple once you understand it: girls are just as prejudiced as boys, that is, they make snap judgements based on frivolous things, but lucky for us guys those things vary and are indeed often quite frivolous. Who knows why a girl is attracted to you? She thinks in shadowplay and symbolism, and something about you symbolizes something she likes, so she likes you. From your point of view the "why" part is unknowable and irrelevant; "who" is the question at hand.

Girls will interpret any future actions based upon those symbolic prejudices formed within the first hour of knowing you. The same action will be interpreted as either cute, noble, or cool, or pathetic, egotistical, or overcompensating, depending entirely upon the preexisting prejudice. You cannot control this interpretation; the best you can hope for is to read her signals accurately and either move in or move on. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES invest yourself in someone who isn't already interested. Life is too short to waste it tilting at windmills.

The more you try to woo a girl who doesn't really like you, the more pathetic you will appear to her. In addition, some girls simply don't want to have anything to do with anyone, period, whether for religious reasons or fear of intimacy or whatever. Don't waste your valuable time pursuing someone you cannot have. Do not chase that which does not wish to be caught.

Girls who don't like you still have a valuable function; if you can maintain some kind of friendship you can access their social network, thereby increasing your exposure and maximizing your chances of finding a girl who will interpret your actions positively. In fact, she may even introduce you to her friends for that express purpose -- provided, of course, she doesn't hate you. Remember the first rule of holes: stop digging. She'll never introduce you to her friends if you're the kind of jerk who can't take "no" for an answer.

Reading social signals is absolutely the most important skill you can develop in order to successfully date. When I was 15 there were exactly half a dozen girls who were really interested in me, that's 6, and it only takes 1, but I didn't know about any of them, that's 0, so it took me another year to get my first serious relationship.

posted 09-17-99 08:31 AM ET            

Sorry i've been away for a while but u know the RAF send me everywhere.
well i'm back for the 4 seeable Future and on the Luv thing there is one rule.... never try to understand women it's too hard. are they alien? i'm sure they are after many failed relationships. i'm currently single at the moment any nice ladied out there wanna get to know me better?

posted 09-17-99 05:37 PM ET         

beta-1

posted 09-18-99 01:19 AM ET            

Beta1,
It's one of the unwritten rules. Often, you can't buy a date even your life depends on it. Then, once you somehow find someone, women start flying out of the woodwork at you. At least that's what they say. Now we will go the Part #3 of my post...

MangoBreeder,
I remember you. At least I remember your name. Now we will go to Part #4 of my post...

To all,
Is there any cure to continious and pointless flirting? What about obsessive crushes? What about being dateless and horny. On that classy note, we will end at Part #5 of my post...

I have nothing else to say right now.

posted 09-18-99 03:34 AM ET            

Now I have found that NOT to be true. When I was married I ACTED married and women KNEW I was married and they never said a word. No, I take that back, there was one, but she was drunk, and after I said, "Isn't it remarkable how the moonlight reflects off my wedding ring?" she got the hint and backed off ... but other than that, women kept their distance and KNEW I was off-limits.

On the other hand almost before the ink was dry on my divorce I got pounced on: "Oh, you're single now?" You can almost hear the theme from Jaws slowly building in the background ... it's really very shocking; you could have knocked me over with a feather at this bizarre turn of events. Who would've guessed?

On the topic of marraige, if you're a man of honor the words, "... or worse" should give you pause. There are better ways to eat a bullet -- at least priests are worshipped for martyring themselves. Go read Ralph Ellison's "Invisible Man", and imagine being honor-bound to live that way forever, and you've got some idea to what you just might be saying, "I do".

Some day those symbolic images in her universe are going to shift on their axis, like an Ice Age or nuclear winter, and casual displays of affection will start seeming to her like "sexual advances" that make her feel "violated" (we're talking about a kiss on the cheek on her way to work).

Obviously a system of rules predicated on the theory that women behave as statistically biased random number generators presumes that women cannot be understood. However, I know for absolutely certain that when the simple displays of affection you have shared with your own grandmother suddenly are "violating" your wife, and she recoils from you and makes a little vomiting noise if you ever dare to insult her by trying, and you are honor-bound not to act on Rule #2, you're left in Ellison's world: "Invisible Man". Obviously "no" means "no", even if it means "never enter my personal space", and "for better or worse" unfortunately includes that "for worse" clause in the fine print, so you can't leave, either. You are Invisible, and that's the way she wants you, and there is NOTHING you can do about it (re: Rule #2!). Think about that before you even consider putting the gun in your mouth and saying "I do".

I had kept my last two rules to myself because they are predicated on a code of honor which is beyond what most men expect of themselves. I will share these rules with you so that whatever you might believe you may protect yourself; if you desire to maintain your honor as strongly as I do and perceive it similarly to myself then Rules #6 and 7 could save you from tragically throwing your life away!

Rule #6: Change Is Dangerous. As unlikely as it is, change CAN occur, when a woman disconnects you from one set of symbols and reconnects you to another. If you ever hear words like "you're just like my stepdad" dropped in casual conversation just go ahead and file the papers -- the symbolic shift has occurred, and your place in the New Order is somewhere under the rim of the toilet. Now reflect once again on Rule #2 ... you aren't magically exempted just because you're married, just honor-bound not to act on it -- the worst of both worlds. That leads to the final rule:

posted 09-18-99 08:12 AM ET         

Beta-1

posted 09-20-99 03:26 AM ET            

Remember Rule #4: It Only Takes One. If you are King of Lockerroom Graffiti someone is going to get turned on by that (probably a guy, though, since as a general rule girls don't go in the guys' lockerroom ... so maybe King of something else would be good ...)

You are suggesting either that I was NOT "King of the Nerds", which is awfully presumptuous of you, or that such a position is unattainable for yourself, which misses the point: you CAN be "King" of something. The Hackers? The Skaters? The Nerds? The Chess Team? Bible Study Group? Geography Club? (Yes! Geography Club! I knew a girl who THREW HERSELF at a guy because his knowledge of geography really turned her on. However, in addition to being President of Geography Club he also turned out to be gay, so she quite naturally ran into some difficulties, but wow, she would have rocked his world!) Just throw yourself into it. No, you can't anoint yourself king of anything, but you can certainly be the one everybody thinks of when they think of whatever it is you're into -- provided your interest and abilities are genuine, which ties into the "don't be a wannabe" angle.

"Oh, but society won't allow me to be King of the Nerds." Quit whining and go be King of something else -- or be Archduke of the Nerds. Just be proud of whatever it is you do -- and don't suck at it -- and you're in like Flynn. Try to be something you're not, and you're hosed. It's your choice.

As hard as it may be for you to believe, I personally was King of the Nerds. Well, somebody has to be, right? That somebody just happened to be me ... at least up until senior year ...

If you had asked any of my peers, "If you had to call someone King of the Nerds, who would it be?" it would have been me. That was my place in the food chain, my evolutionary niche'. Not that it helped me much: I didn't realize that having that reputation automatically meant there was a tiny but highly relevant minority of girls who thought it was cool. As I said, I carried the banner out of defiance rather than a Machiavellian attempt to gain some visibility so as to shift social probabilities in my favor. (It took a couple more years for my thinking to "evolve" to that level.)

When I was a senior I earned a sort of "schitzo" reputation -- I didn't drink, which was actually very surprising to my peers, my class rank never got above 33%, I always carried printouts of Z-80 source code but never seemed to have my homework, I was in the student government (although on probation most of the time due to bad grades), a Z-80 program I had written was actually used during a school function, I got suspended for walking the halls during class, I won some really impressive-sounding awards for computer stuff, I got kicked off the school paper for writing an article critical of the administration, I was the only "Known Atheist" on campus (there were others; I was just the only one anybody knew about), I got a perfect Science score on my college admissions test, shocking the hell out of our new guidance counselor who had called me in because of bad grades and poor attitude, and I started "the other band" which none of the adults knew about because we would start playing like we really meant business and everybody just assumed that we were following orders. The band leader complained a lot about the un-egalitarian nature of "the other band" (there was no sheet music, you just had to know what to play) but that never stopped us. Notwithstanding the fact that I still called myself "a nerd", well, the old clothes just didn't fit anymore.

These events made me sort of an "unknown quantity" ... I was King of something, but there's really no way to pin it down. I really didn't know what I was doing. I didn't intend anything by it, I was just having fun.

posted 09-20-99 06:23 AM ET            

Let's look at the evidence:

Computer whiz, OK it's geeky, I'll give you that one. It's amazing how many girls find clever blokes attractive.

Sax player? If you can get a cooler instrument than the sax I don't know it, plus you aren't in the regular band you go off and start your own one, disinterest in traditional authority, leadership and self confidence. All very attractive features.

Didn't drink, more likely to be able to perform.

No confidence in ability to attract girls which you seem to have manifested in a concious air of "I know you don't fancy me, I don't care I'm not interested anyway." Girls find that really sexy, the idea of the unavailable being more attractive than the available.

posted 09-20-99 10:06 AM ET            

IT WORKED... looking really shy and making her know that u know she is'nt interested in you make u mare attractive to them. (Does that make sense)

well have to go now my STUDENT NURSE is waiting for me (It't doesn't get more naughty that that)

posted 09-20-99 09:39 PM ET            

Some girls will actually be so in awe of you that they will feel unworthy(!), which is actually bad because it is harder than heck to get accurate signals from them. These girls see you as "out of reach" and so never give off any signals, or talk to their friends, or even contemplate the possibility of a "girl like her" with a "guy like you", and yet in the right frame of mind they would love to go out with you. This one's tricky -- you have to become friends with the "he's-out-of-my-league" girls so that they will see you as "more human", but before you can befriend her you have to know the situation beforehand, which I am sad to say is beyond my ability to detect. The shotgun approach, be friends with as many as you can, does fit the "maximum exposure" theme, but the "he's-above-me" girls usually require more than a casual friendship to get any signals from at all, so don't get your hopes up.

Back to taking pride in yourself: DON'T talk about how good you are at math. Talk about how INTERESTED you are in it. Make admiring comments to others about particularly imaginative mathematical ideas they have come up with or puzzles they have solved. If you are truly the authority on math to compliment another's work shows wisdom and humility, and if it's a girl then it instantly gives you a connection, something in common, and maybe even that symbol she's looking for. If not, make her a friend, and get exposure to her friends.

Be true to your subject to be true to yourself. You don't have to talk about yourself when you talk about math: you ARE talking about yourself when you talk about math, because you ARE math. Use the "I" word as little as possible. Learn your "ancestors", the people who discovered the things you are learning, and really form a deep connection with the art of mathematics.

Above all else, use your math skills to create casual contacts with girls. Study with the smart ones and tutor those less skilled than yourself. You're not looking to "score points" with any particular girl -- your goal is MAXIMUM EXPOSURE. Imagine your good fortune if you're tutoring the girl who is best friends with the girl who really likes you but doesn't know how to tell you? You couldn't wave a magic wand and come up with something better!

Another thing: if you're as nerdy as I was then reading signals is going to be really tough for you. My secret? CHEAT! If a girl likes you she will tell her friends. If you think a girl might like you, try to befriend one of her friends. Here's how it works:

1. Her friend(s) kind of brush you off, and don't seem all that interested in talking to you. Okay, obviously she's not talking about you or they would talk to you -- about her!

2. Her friend(s) talk to you for a bit, but casually mention the girl you think might be interested. They won't ever say anything overt, but just the fact that she gets mentioned at all -- not to mention her friends' eagerness to talk to you -- are major signs that you're in good with her. Be sure to talk about her in return; if you're lucky the conversation will subtly shift to being ABOUT her.

3. Her friend(s) talk to you, but in a way that makes it pretty clear that THEY are the ones who are interested (like if they ask you a bunch of questions about yourself and never mention the friend).

3a. Same as 3, except both the girl you thought might be interested AND her friends are interested, and there is some competition going on. So much the better. Choose the one you like the most. Yay!

posted 09-22-99 04:25 AM ET            

if your doing your GCSE's i assume your around 15,16 for a lad that young u sure do have a lot of wisdom. As for knowing more than your teacher, i did Computing a_level and i really did know more than my teacher, who had know idea about programming or data structure, but she was a maths genius, that was the year i found out there was more than 1 infinity. i know i can even begin to get my head around it and i did a_level maths also.

As for getting good a_level grades chill you can coast through the exams with revision the night before as i did, i got 10 A-C's 7 of which were A&B's be warned though don't try to do it with english lit. i just scraped a C miracles do happen.

A_levels is the thing you have to worry about.

posted 09-22-99 07:17 PM ET         

Beta-1

posted 09-23-99 01:38 PM ET            

Delete Rules 1-7.

posted 09-23-99 02:38 PM ET         

Beta-1

posted 09-24-99 04:54 AM ET         

I'm with Koshko - if it happens it will happen

Beta-1

posted 09-24-99 04:55 AM ET            

If you are in the same class you can always talk about something in that, the great thing about girls is that they are quite happy to talk about nothing really.

Phone her up and say you were a bit bored and you just thought you'd phone up. That works alright.

posted 09-24-99 07:13 PM ET         

If its any consolation by settling things that way he's shown he's not half the man you are.

Beta-1

posted 09-24-99 07:58 PM ET            

Greatheart Silver -- not just a new name.

posted 09-24-99 10:00 PM ET            

I read the first 40 messages in this thread a week or so ago and it really got me depressed, so I resolved not to post in here. But now I feel I have to post to congratulate Dreadnought and offer my condolences, for whatever they're worth, about your injuries (think of them as battle scars which you can brag about later on).

Good luck and be joyous, may your bowel movements be quick and healthful,

posted 09-25-99 04:18 AM ET            

quote:

---

no one had ever said anything like that to her before

---

posted 09-27-99 05:34 AM ET            

Here is what you do Ok.
Phone her.
Say: I was watching you watching me in class today, and you were definatly licking your lips.
this should either
(a) get a laugh
(b) deep silence
(C) a injuction on you prohibiting you from comming within 50 feet of her.

If you get either b or c put the phone down and deny all knowledge ( i suggest you do 141 just in case)(to all those georgous people state side 141 disables caller display)

If (a) is the answer then you 50 percent of the way there you have made here laugh and based on past experience she will start rabbiting on you will even get sick of it.
if you can get her to rat on one of her mates the bond of trust will only stregnth the friendship. One of my best mates chrisine tells me everything cos she knows it will go no further, she even made me a honory girl once a definate compliment.

God this is probally my longest post ever.

p.s. one last bit of advise taken from this months FHM

if the conversation dies try this little bueaty:

your stuck on a destert island and whuile wal;king abnout you find the geinie and lamp. you give it a rub (the lamp i mean) and the genie sez.
"i will get any man/woman (change according to gneder of other paries) to come and pleasure you and make life easier but you only get 10 points to spend here is how they are allocated.

Supermodel : 10 points
Celibrity : 5 points
Friend : 2 points
stranger (pot luck): 1 point

ask her how she would spend her points

this was taken from memory the FHM one is probally better.

ANd IF THE CONVERSATION IS STILL DAD AFTER THAN SHE IS NOT THE ONE FOR YOU

MB

posted 10-05-99 06:25 AM ET            

At the moment you're probably really confused, hoping that at some point she'll suddenly realise how you feel, ditch her boyf. and get together with you. It won't ever happen unless you try and make it happen. Even then you probably know that it won't which is why you hurt so much. You have to find out one way or the other and deal with it. You don't have to tell her but then you have to accept that nothing's ever going to happen between you. Lying around thinking, wishing, hoping and getting depressed is useless, I did it for ages. I'm still trying to work out what was going on in my head at that time. All I know is that telling her was the biggest relief of my life even though she rejected me. I knew she would, I still had to tell her though.

posted 10-05-99 12:03 PM ET            

"Alphaman vanished without a trace I think."

Most certainly not.
Greetings all.
Mango Breeder. Mike. John. D/nought.