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Author Topic:   Matrix

Aredhran posted 06-25-99 06:58 AM ET
This is probably old news to most of you out here, but this movie just came out in Geneva, and I went to see it last night.
Loved it (well, except for Keanu's acting which is as poor as usual)
What did you guys think about it ?
Aredhran

MikeH II posted 06-25-99 07:00 AM ET
Haven't seen it yet. I must go to the Cinema more often.
jimmytrick posted 06-25-99 08:13 AM ET
So, Aredhran, this is why Hi-Tech is incomplete! Spending all your time in movie houses and laying about off-topic!
I have not seen it. Maybe I will get a chance to pick it up on video.
Aredhran posted 06-25-99 08:19 AM ET
I really loved the concept of multiple-layers of "reality". Other movies that had this were ExistenZ and Total Recall.
JT, Hi-Tech is coming soon (probably this week-end or early next week, so don't despair)
Aredhran
Picker posted 06-25-99 08:35 AM ET
Oh, I thought it was great. I'm gonna buy it as soon as it comes out.
I could actually see that happening(or something similar).
DerekM posted 06-25-99 01:46 PM ET
Who says it isn't?
Who says it isn't?
Frodo83 posted 06-25-99 02:31 PM ET
I enjoyed it. Left plenty of room for a sequel.
Eris posted 06-25-99 02:51 PM ET
I must be weird. I actually think KR did a good job in this movie. Only once was I inspired to add the word 'Dude' to a line he said. Unlike _Dangerous Liaisons_.
Eris (There is no spoon.)
Picker posted 06-25-99 02:57 PM ET
No, you are not weird, Eris, I thought he acted well too.
Dreadnought posted 06-25-99 03:57 PM ET
The Matrix will go down in history as the only movie Keanu Reeves wasent able to ruin.
DerekM posted 06-25-99 04:14 PM ET
Are you kidding? What about "The Devil's Advocate?" KR had no chance against Pacino. Of course, I saw it in a room full of law students, which adds something to the experience (mostly a bunch of disturbed looks and sweaty brows ).
Noisy posted 06-25-99 07:29 PM ET
Saw it a couple of days ago, and I'm still not sure of my overall evaluation.
Liked the first and last thirds, but the middle third was soooo slooooow.
It's a pity the trailer showed all of the best special effects, because there was nothing left to provide a surprise.
I did stay to watch the credits, which is extremely rare, but that was mainly to get a look at the music credits: this is the only film of which I've ever contemplated buying the soundtrack. (If someone could put that sentence back into English, I'd be grateful.)
I ended up driving back from the flicks in a really strange mood.
Noisy
Great Wdeeb, Chief Idoit of the planet Sutpid
Octopus posted 06-25-99 09:51 PM ET
I thought it was a reasonably good movie. The effects were nice, and most of the acting was passable to really good (the head Agent did a really good job). The action sequences were pretty good. All in all, though, the story just wasn't very compelling for me. It didn't seem very inventive or original.
Dreadnought posted 06-25-99 10:39 PM ET
Octopus- "...the story just wasn't very compelling for me. It didn't seem very inventive or original."
Did we same the same movie? The Matrix had one of the most innovative plots I've ever seen. It also made you think.
Octopus posted 06-25-99 10:59 PM ET
Does "cyberpunk solipsism" describe the one you saw? I'm sorry, but the notion that "everything is an illusion" is old hat. It's not inventive. The notion that computer hackers are some sort of "chosen people" is simple escapism. "The Matrix" simply mixes those two together, with some snazzy FX. Maybe I just dislike the cyberpunk genre because it smacks too much of the losers I knew in college who would spend all of their time in the computer centers, convincing themselves that being a sysadmin somehow made them "cool".
There was nothing surprising about the plot, and it didn't make me think any more than Descartes, who came up with "how can I be sure that my senses are not decieved in every way by some evil demon" hundreds of years ago. With all of the adds and promos I had seen for it, I had expected it to be reasonably inventive. "What is the Matrix?" was offered as some sort of tagline, or something, but it wasn't mysterious or anything. The established it all with a couple minutes of exposition, and then moved on to a couple of action sequences. The only morally interesting question of "why is it okay for Keanu to gun down hundreds of innocent and unsuspecting people when he's going after the agents" was casually brushed off. The "chosen one/messiah" thing has been done to death, too. Also, they tried to establish that the hackers had "power" because they could "break the rules of the reality", but they never did this.
It was an interesting movie, and it was visually very appealing, but it was not a great movie, merely a reasonably good one. Definitely worth it to see in the theaters.
JohnIII posted 06-26-99 01:34 PM ET
The Matrix contained elements of:
Terminator
Terminator 2
True Lies
Die Hard With A Vengeance
Men in Black
Star Trek: First Contact
Star Wars
So, not that original then.
John III
Talamascan posted 06-26-99 08:39 PM ET
Don't matter if it's old hat. Much of literature is based on some old concept, and at times execution and spin is what's most interesting. This theme may date back toc Descartes, but not that many movies (or decent books for that matter) have taken advantage of it. Gotta love when a movie uses elements of philosophy.
Mysticism + semi-cyberpunk. There's a big plothole lying around (which could've been easily fixed, but would've slowed down the movie), but take it as something amusing.
jig posted 06-26-99 11:21 PM ET
William Gibson anyone?
jig posted 06-26-99 11:30 PM ET
Octopus, I think you overvalue true originality. Creative ideas evolve, just as things do in the real world. They rarely ever are truly original and being truly original isn't necessarily good.
By the way, I challenge you to give me a good movie script with a truly original idea.
Dreadnought posted 06-26-99 11:38 PM ET
Octopus- I'll agree with you on some level. But as Jig said, no movie is truly original. The thing about the Matrix that I really didnt like is that the movie started out with a deep, interesting plot, but at the end it degraded into a mindless shoot-em-up. And about your morality question, I agree with you. Just because the people there are not truly "people" in the sense (movie-wise) doesnt mean it is okay to kill them. After all, they die in the real world too if thy die in the Matrix.
Octopus posted 06-27-99 01:07 AM ET
I didn't mean to imply that originality is the only thing that can make a story work. However, "The Matrix" didn't have anything else going for it story-wise (e.g. interesting characters, intriguing plot, etc.), so it could only have been saved by being original, which it wasn't. I don't know how to put into words exactly what was wrong with The Matrix, but it definiely seemed to "lack" something. It seems like they were very close to making a really good movie, but they narrowly missed it, and I can't put my finger on exactly why.
"By the way, I challenge you to give me a good movie script with a truly original idea."
Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. (This is just the first sci-fi example, off the top of my head).
Aredhran posted 06-28-99 04:09 AM ET
Octopus, Bill&Ted's is probably Keanu's best acting performance (probably because he did not have to act much )
Aredhran
DCA posted 06-28-99 06:04 AM ET
Good movie scripts with a truly original ideas: I'd say all Stanley Kubrick and Monty Python movies are both good and original... 2001's even sf, so there!
DCA,
Little did he know.
jig posted 06-28-99 06:36 AM ET
Alright, I never should have put out that challenge. It was doomed (jeez, I've been saying this word alot) from the start since there's always a first.
Earwicker posted 07-01-99 01:51 PM ET
I thought it was very derivative but somehow that didn't detract from my enjoyment of the movie. Definitely not Fine Cinema, but it was a wild ride. As summer entertainment eye-candy goes, well worth the ticket.
Whoa.
(and there should be more movies that feature remodeling ofice buildings using high-power rifles)
Raven of Despair posted 07-01-99 02:32 PM ET
No Jar-Jar Binks. 'Nuff said.
Tap2 posted 07-01-99 04:25 PM ET
This isn't fair - Matrix doesn't premier in Sweden 'til July 16...
Octopus: Don't get me wrong here, I normally am on your side on this forum, but I need to discuss a few things here.
Did you REALLY go see the film expecting sth. new and philosophically advanced?
I can't be sure, but I suspect you must have seen the trailer beforehand, right?
OK, since I haven't seen the film, all I could rely on (before this thread) was the trailer, and I _definitely_ was not expecting a new "2001"/"Bladerunner"/"Brazil"/"12 Monkeys"/etc. I expected an FX-laden film with at least ONE lousy actor performance (anyone see KR do the cyberpunk thing before - and fail...), and hopefully not too many too glaring logical inconsistencies... From what you've written, I might even have some happy surprises in store...
Correct me if I'm wrong here, Octopus, but you probably didn't expect a masterpiece either, right?
On the other hand, I just looked at the thread again, and you WERE indubitably provoked into writing your negative statements. So. What can I say. Um. I'm overreacting to what you wrote, just as you did to what Dreadnought did.
Sorry. You most probably already thought what I wrote up there.
It IS interesting to consider what makes a film truly great, good, mediocre, uninteresting or plain bad, though.
Octopus posted 07-01-99 08:57 PM ET
Tap: I expected a fun summer movie, and that's what I got. It was very enjoyable, and I encourage everyone to see it in the theatres, because cool looking movies like this are a lot better on the big screen. However, it was certainly not a "classic" or a "great movie" or anything like that, which is what I originally said. As you observed, I was mostly reacting to Dreadnaught's increduluous reaction to my initial less-than-worshipful reaction.
Going into the movie, I had only seen commercials (and possibly a trailer, I don't remember). What I remember from that was a bunch of cool FX shoots (which the movie definitely has), the question "What is the Matrix", and one of the characters saying something like "Unfortunately I can't tell you, everyone has to figure it out for themselves", or something like that. So, I certainly didn't expect that same character (the captain) to explain the whole thing about a half an hour into the movie. I thought that finding out what the matrix was was going to be the "payoff" of the movie, but it was just a building block to the plot, so I was sort of misled in that respect.
As I said, go see it and enjoy it. It's not a classic, but not every movie has to be a classic. It's definitely a fun movie, especially if you enjoy cool visuals.
DerekM posted 07-02-99 08:20 AM ET
If you had grown up in the matrix, and considered it to be reality, then I think Morpheus's comment makes more sense. It definitely was used to sell the movie and make it seem more mysterious than it was, though, so I generally agree with Octopus.
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Author	Topic: Matrix
Aredhran	posted 06-25-99 06:58 AM ET This is probably old news to most of you out here, but this movie just came out in Geneva, and I went to see it last night. Loved it (well, except for Keanu's acting which is as poor as usual) What did you guys think about it ? Aredhran
MikeH II	posted 06-25-99 07:00 AM ET Haven't seen it yet. I must go to the Cinema more often.
jimmytrick	posted 06-25-99 08:13 AM ET So, Aredhran, this is why Hi-Tech is incomplete! Spending all your time in movie houses and laying about off-topic! I have not seen it. Maybe I will get a chance to pick it up on video.
Aredhran	posted 06-25-99 08:19 AM ET I really loved the concept of multiple-layers of "reality". Other movies that had this were ExistenZ and Total Recall. JT, Hi-Tech is coming soon (probably this week-end or early next week, so don't despair) Aredhran
Picker	posted 06-25-99 08:35 AM ET Oh, I thought it was great. I'm gonna buy it as soon as it comes out. I could actually see that happening(or something similar).
DerekM	posted 06-25-99 01:46 PM ET Who says it isn't? Who says it isn't?
Frodo83	posted 06-25-99 02:31 PM ET I enjoyed it. Left plenty of room for a sequel.
Eris	posted 06-25-99 02:51 PM ET I must be weird. I actually think KR did a good job in this movie. Only once was I inspired to add the word 'Dude' to a line he said. Unlike _Dangerous Liaisons_. Eris (There is no spoon.)
Picker	posted 06-25-99 02:57 PM ET No, you are not weird, Eris, I thought he acted well too.
Dreadnought	posted 06-25-99 03:57 PM ET The Matrix will go down in history as the only movie Keanu Reeves wasent able to ruin.
DerekM	posted 06-25-99 04:14 PM ET Are you kidding? What about "The Devil's Advocate?" KR had no chance against Pacino. Of course, I saw it in a room full of law students, which adds something to the experience (mostly a bunch of disturbed looks and sweaty brows ).
Noisy	posted 06-25-99 07:29 PM ET Saw it a couple of days ago, and I'm still not sure of my overall evaluation. Liked the first and last thirds, but the middle third was soooo slooooow. It's a pity the trailer showed all of the best special effects, because there was nothing left to provide a surprise. I did stay to watch the credits, which is extremely rare, but that was mainly to get a look at the music credits: this is the only film of which I've ever contemplated buying the soundtrack. (If someone could put that sentence back into English, I'd be grateful.) I ended up driving back from the flicks in a really strange mood. Noisy Great Wdeeb, Chief Idoit of the planet Sutpid
Octopus	posted 06-25-99 09:51 PM ET I thought it was a reasonably good movie. The effects were nice, and most of the acting was passable to really good (the head Agent did a really good job). The action sequences were pretty good. All in all, though, the story just wasn't very compelling for me. It didn't seem very inventive or original.
Dreadnought	posted 06-25-99 10:39 PM ET Octopus- "...the story just wasn't very compelling for me. It didn't seem very inventive or original." Did we same the same movie? The Matrix had one of the most innovative plots I've ever seen. It also made you think.
Octopus	posted 06-25-99 10:59 PM ET Does "cyberpunk solipsism" describe the one you saw? I'm sorry, but the notion that "everything is an illusion" is old hat. It's not inventive. The notion that computer hackers are some sort of "chosen people" is simple escapism. "The Matrix" simply mixes those two together, with some snazzy FX. Maybe I just dislike the cyberpunk genre because it smacks too much of the losers I knew in college who would spend all of their time in the computer centers, convincing themselves that being a sysadmin somehow made them "cool". There was nothing surprising about the plot, and it didn't make me think any more than Descartes, who came up with "how can I be sure that my senses are not decieved in every way by some evil demon" hundreds of years ago. With all of the adds and promos I had seen for it, I had expected it to be reasonably inventive. "What is the Matrix?" was offered as some sort of tagline, or something, but it wasn't mysterious or anything. The established it all with a couple minutes of exposition, and then moved on to a couple of action sequences. The only morally interesting question of "why is it okay for Keanu to gun down hundreds of innocent and unsuspecting people when he's going after the agents" was casually brushed off. The "chosen one/messiah" thing has been done to death, too. Also, they tried to establish that the hackers had "power" because they could "break the rules of the reality", but they never did this. It was an interesting movie, and it was visually very appealing, but it was not a great movie, merely a reasonably good one. Definitely worth it to see in the theaters.
JohnIII	posted 06-26-99 01:34 PM ET The Matrix contained elements of: Terminator Terminator 2 True Lies Die Hard With A Vengeance Men in Black Star Trek: First Contact Star Wars So, not that original then. John III
Talamascan	posted 06-26-99 08:39 PM ET Don't matter if it's old hat. Much of literature is based on some old concept, and at times execution and spin is what's most interesting. This theme may date back toc Descartes, but not that many movies (or decent books for that matter) have taken advantage of it. Gotta love when a movie uses elements of philosophy. Mysticism + semi-cyberpunk. There's a big plothole lying around (which could've been easily fixed, but would've slowed down the movie), but take it as something amusing.
jig	posted 06-26-99 11:21 PM ET William Gibson anyone?
jig	posted 06-26-99 11:30 PM ET Octopus, I think you overvalue true originality. Creative ideas evolve, just as things do in the real world. They rarely ever are truly original and being truly original isn't necessarily good. By the way, I challenge you to give me a good movie script with a truly original idea.
Dreadnought	posted 06-26-99 11:38 PM ET Octopus- I'll agree with you on some level. But as Jig said, no movie is truly original. The thing about the Matrix that I really didnt like is that the movie started out with a deep, interesting plot, but at the end it degraded into a mindless shoot-em-up. And about your morality question, I agree with you. Just because the people there are not truly "people" in the sense (movie-wise) doesnt mean it is okay to kill them. After all, they die in the real world too if thy die in the Matrix.
Octopus	posted 06-27-99 01:07 AM ET I didn't mean to imply that originality is the only thing that can make a story work. However, "The Matrix" didn't have anything else going for it story-wise (e.g. interesting characters, intriguing plot, etc.), so it could only have been saved by being original, which it wasn't. I don't know how to put into words exactly what was wrong with The Matrix, but it definiely seemed to "lack" something. It seems like they were very close to making a really good movie, but they narrowly missed it, and I can't put my finger on exactly why. "By the way, I challenge you to give me a good movie script with a truly original idea." Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure. (This is just the first sci-fi example, off the top of my head).
Aredhran	posted 06-28-99 04:09 AM ET Octopus, Bill&Ted's is probably Keanu's best acting performance (probably because he did not have to act much ) Aredhran
DCA	posted 06-28-99 06:04 AM ET Good movie scripts with a truly original ideas: I'd say all Stanley Kubrick and Monty Python movies are both good and original... 2001's even sf, so there! DCA, Little did he know.
jig	posted 06-28-99 06:36 AM ET Alright, I never should have put out that challenge. It was doomed (jeez, I've been saying this word alot) from the start since there's always a first.
Earwicker	posted 07-01-99 01:51 PM ET I thought it was very derivative but somehow that didn't detract from my enjoyment of the movie. Definitely not Fine Cinema, but it was a wild ride. As summer entertainment eye-candy goes, well worth the ticket. Whoa. (and there should be more movies that feature remodeling ofice buildings using high-power rifles)
Raven of Despair	posted 07-01-99 02:32 PM ET No Jar-Jar Binks. 'Nuff said.
Tap2	posted 07-01-99 04:25 PM ET This isn't fair - Matrix doesn't premier in Sweden 'til July 16... Octopus: Don't get me wrong here, I normally am on your side on this forum, but I need to discuss a few things here. Did you REALLY go see the film expecting sth. new and philosophically advanced? I can't be sure, but I suspect you must have seen the trailer beforehand, right? OK, since I haven't seen the film, all I could rely on (before this thread) was the trailer, and I _definitely_ was not expecting a new "2001"/"Bladerunner"/"Brazil"/"12 Monkeys"/etc. I expected an FX-laden film with at least ONE lousy actor performance (anyone see KR do the cyberpunk thing before - and fail...), and hopefully not too many too glaring logical inconsistencies... From what you've written, I might even have some happy surprises in store... Correct me if I'm wrong here, Octopus, but you probably didn't expect a masterpiece either, right? On the other hand, I just looked at the thread again, and you WERE indubitably provoked into writing your negative statements. So. What can I say. Um. I'm overreacting to what you wrote, just as you did to what Dreadnought did. Sorry. You most probably already thought what I wrote up there. It IS interesting to consider what makes a film truly great, good, mediocre, uninteresting or plain bad, though.
Octopus	posted 07-01-99 08:57 PM ET Tap: I expected a fun summer movie, and that's what I got. It was very enjoyable, and I encourage everyone to see it in the theatres, because cool looking movies like this are a lot better on the big screen. However, it was certainly not a "classic" or a "great movie" or anything like that, which is what I originally said. As you observed, I was mostly reacting to Dreadnaught's increduluous reaction to my initial less-than-worshipful reaction. Going into the movie, I had only seen commercials (and possibly a trailer, I don't remember). What I remember from that was a bunch of cool FX shoots (which the movie definitely has), the question "What is the Matrix", and one of the characters saying something like "Unfortunately I can't tell you, everyone has to figure it out for themselves", or something like that. So, I certainly didn't expect that same character (the captain) to explain the whole thing about a half an hour into the movie. I thought that finding out what the matrix was was going to be the "payoff" of the movie, but it was just a building block to the plot, so I was sort of misled in that respect. As I said, go see it and enjoy it. It's not a classic, but not every movie has to be a classic. It's definitely a fun movie, especially if you enjoy cool visuals.
DerekM	posted 07-02-99 08:20 AM ET If you had grown up in the matrix, and considered it to be reality, then I think Morpheus's comment makes more sense. It definitely was used to sell the movie and make it seem more mysterious than it was, though, so I generally agree with Octopus.