Belgium-a country in moral and social bankrupcy ?

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Author Topic:   Belgium-a country in moral and social bankrupcy ?

Bishop posted 06-17-99 05:45 PM ET
Child-porn scandals, government bribery scandals, poisoned-food scandals, and now I read about some football-player scandal. Belgium seems to be a country that has nothing but scandals, why is that ? Anyone ?
DanS posted 06-17-99 05:48 PM ET
Not only that but the new American ambassador to Belgium is creating a scandal in the U.S. as well. Something about cross-dressing nuns...
DanS posted 06-17-99 05:48 PM ET
Also, don't forget the Coca-Cola scandal. It's spreading!!!
Bishop posted 06-17-99 05:51 PM ET
Forgot that one, too many to keep track on, it seems...
Bishop
DanS posted 06-17-99 07:00 PM ET
Oops, that ambassador was just appointed to Luxembourg not Belgium...
SnowFire posted 06-17-99 08:53 PM ET
Um, no. The reason Hormel wasn't appointed to be ambassador was bigotry, not cross-dressing nuns. That's the excuse. You see, Imhofe charged that Hormel was a "homosexual activist who puts his agenda ahea of America's agenda." Never mind that he isn't a homosexual activist and "the agenda of America" is something shrouded in mystery. So, they needed to dummy up some charges against him. So, there's this gay acting troupe- and they dressed up like nuns in one scene. And, you see, Hormel failed to denouce them as evil. Never mind all the groups that could be called "bad" that Republicans have failed to denounce, many of them flagrantly racist. So, for his crime of failing to denouce the group, he can't be ambassador. Of course, since Clinton did that recess appointment, Imhofe won't approve Holbrooke (who's giving up a 1.5 million dollar job for a 130,000 dollar one, and is still getting his finances investigated, sending him to the poorhouse) or Summers (causing the dollar to drop worldwide). Now there's a person who's putting bigoted politics ahead of America's agenda.
What? Stay on topic? Actually, I can't remember anything special about Belgium lately. Could you elaborate?
DanS posted 06-17-99 10:18 PM ET
Snowfire: I wasn't making any statement about the reasons behind the appointment. The scandal itself is caused by the cross dressing nuns part, irrespective of the "real" reason Clinton did the recess appointment.
Bishop posted 06-18-99 04:40 AM ET
SnowFire
I don�t know about the states, but in Sweden (and the rest of Europe)there�s been quite a lot about the Marc Doutroux (sp?)child-porn scandal. It seems that he had some help and support from high ranking policemen and politicians, that�s why he could carry on as long as he did. This created a major scandal and public outrage.
The other thing that�s been frequently in the news the last few weeks is the dioxine scandal, it seems that the politicians, especially the minister for agriculture, was aware that practically all the meat and dairy products was loaded with dioxine. They kept this a secret so not to jeopardize Belgiums foreign trade. Again major scandal and public outrage.
When I come to think about it wasn�t there also some sort of AIDS contaminated blood-scandal some years back, or was that in France ?
Bishop
Bishop posted 06-18-99 04:46 AM ET
Oh, and the Belgian-made Coca Cola had large quantites of dioxine as well, this didn�t come to public attention until some school children got very ill by drinking it. As DanS says, it�s spreading (into France.)
Bishop
Roland posted 06-18-99 05:00 AM ET
The HIV blood scandal was in France, the coke thing is about fungizides and some other stuff, not dioxin.
Regarding Hormel: Funny to see that all of a sudden, certain people seem to care about discrimination. And that they say you can't send him to a catholic country like Luxembourg, that would be an affront. First, it's really new that the US cares about such subtile things, and second I don't think the people of Luxembourg give a damn about the nuns or Hormel's personal agenda...
Bishop posted 06-18-99 05:02 AM ET
Roland
I stand corrected
Bishop
Hugo Rune posted 06-18-99 06:47 AM ET
And there was a survey done among Belgian Football Players, and 1/3 of them admitted to taking bribes to drop games.
The dioxine scandal, the coke scandal, the paedophile scandal and the football scandal have led to the government resigning.
SnowFire posted 06-18-99 12:54 PM ET
Roland: You're right, they couldn't care less, if the polls mean anything.
Bishop: Actually, I do remember seeing a clip on the dioxin scandal awhlie ago. Thanks for refreshing my memory.
DanS posted 06-18-99 12:57 PM ET
"I don't think the people of Luxembourg give a damn about the nuns or Hormel's personal agenda"
Do the people of Luxembourg give a damn about anything? The scandal was not in Luxembourg, it was in the U.S. regarding Luxembourg.
Roland posted 06-21-99 02:54 AM ET
Do the people of Luxembourg give a damn about anything?
Yes, capital gains tax harmonization....
The scandal was not in Luxembourg, it was in the U.S. regarding Luxembourg.
Yes, but some US conservatives claimed that the people of Luxembourg would be insulted by that appointment...
Spoe posted 06-21-99 03:08 PM ET
All I can say is how can you guys use such a reprehensibly obscene words, and in a subject title to boot!
DanS posted 06-21-99 04:52 PM ET
Roland: so what. This is a case of "hide the rhetorical ball." Some conservatives linked the two (congressional aides can read almanacs and find that Luxembourg is 97% catholic), but mostly it was Americans being scandalized among themselves about their ambassador to another country. More a self-identity thing than a Luxembourg thing.
Again, I'm not making any judgments about the scandal, only that it existed.
Roland posted 06-22-99 03:15 AM ET
Dan, how is this different from what I've been saying initially:
"Funny to see that all of a sudden, certain people seem to care about discrimination. And that they say you can't send him to a catholic country like Luxembourg, that would be an affront. First, it's really new that the US cares about such subtile things, and second I don't think the people of Luxembourg give a damn about the nuns or Hormel's personal agenda...
Isn't that a description of "hide the rhetorical ball." ?
GaryD posted 06-22-99 04:14 AM ET
Hey I figured that they just got bored with their boring image, and decided to spice things up a bit.
DanS posted 06-22-99 09:57 AM ET
Roland: Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. I was accusing you of hiding the rhetorical ball (as I admit that some conservatives are doing--I'm not trying to defend them). J'accuse!
I think you got some of the facts wrong also. The U.S. has a large, vocal, and serious catholic minority. Even though Luxembourg may not give a damn, this "subtelty" is picked up by many U.S. catholics.
Geez. Make one off-the-cuff comment and all-of-the-sudden I am flamed by Snowfire (really I was a straw man for his rant) and have to defend a position I don't hold necessarily (you hiding the rhetorical ball).
Anybody want to play dodge ball?
Saras posted 06-22-99 10:06 AM ET
How come I read it Riding the rhetorical bull
DanS posted 06-22-99 10:13 AM ET
Because you're a sick ****!
SnowFire posted 06-22-99 12:46 PM ET
Spoe: Yeah, well you can Belgium off then. Belgium! Belgium Belgium Belgium!
I don't know, too many syllables to be a really good one...
Roland posted 06-22-99 02:32 PM ET
Perhaps we are talking at cross purposes. I was accusing you of hiding the rhetorical ball (as I admit that some conservatives are doing--I'm not trying to defend them). J'accuse!
Et moi, je ne regrette rien! Of course this rhetoric is meant to appeal to the domestic audience...
I think you got some of the facts wrong also. The U.S. has a large, vocal, and serious catholic minority.
Where did I say the US had a small, silent and non-serious catholic minority (something like 30 % ?)...
Even though Luxembourg may not give a damn, this "subtelty" is picked up by many U.S. catholics.
Yes, but the conservatives don't care about Luxembourg and its assumed subtile grievances - right ?
Anybody want to play dodge ball?
If it is the game I'm thinking off, fine... just how to play that over the net ?
DanS posted 06-22-99 02:53 PM ET
Roland: oops, I think I misunderstood your point about the subtleties. Quite so, the U.S. probably doesn't care too much what the Luxembourgers think about it (the subtlety). IIRC, the % is ~ 35%, even though the Luxembourgers are players in this stage drama (i.e., extras).
SnowFire posted 06-22-99 03:47 PM ET
It's simple, just like volleyball except with dodgeball rules. If you hit the ball and it doesn't go over, you're out.
Oh, that net? Never mind.
DanS posted 06-22-99 04:22 PM ET
Snowfire:
Roland: The game is played by two teams and the object of the game is to beam the players from the other team with a ball before they beam your players. If you are hit before the ball bounces on the ground or hits the wall, you're out. If you catch a ball thrown by a player from the other team, they're out. Play continues until one of the teams has no players left (the losers).
Valtyr posted 06-22-99 05:57 PM ET
Sounds a lot like a game we play in Norway called kanonball (cannon ball).
walruskkkch posted 06-22-99 06:09 PM ET
Returning back to the original topic can anybody supply some basic bit of information? I've been reading about the Dioxin contamination here in the US papers but there has been no mention, at least that I can find, that says what were the levels of Dioxin found in the contaminated foods. Dioxin scares have happened before but usually it turns out that the levels are fairly low and don't actually pose an immediate health threat. Dioxin usually is only a health threat in large doses, was the exposure that high?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Your faithful and obedient servant
Roland posted 06-23-99 03:15 AM ET
Dan, I'm glad we've finally killed that misunderstanding.
Dodge ball: yes, that's what I meant. Called "V�lkerball" here for a reason nobody knows...
Snowfire: Good one!
Walrus: The only thig I know is that the levels have been conseiderably above those allowed. As the original contamination was in animal feed, the resulting contamination of products has to vary a lot.

Bishop posted 06-23-99 07:09 AM ET
walrushkkch
Yes, it seems that the dioxin levels were quite high, at least high enough to cause moral outrage among the populace. (even though the outrage had more to do with the politicians knowing about it and not saying anything) I�ve recently heard on Euro News that they�ve tracked the source of the dioxin, it was tracked to a manufacturer of animal feed.
It also said Coca Cola has made an public apology to the people of Belgium and France, it�s still not clear what it was that made people sick however. Coca Cola claims they�d been delivered faulty carbonic acid from Swedish AGA-Gas (needless to say I consider this to be a load of crap )
Bishop
DanS posted 06-23-99 10:02 AM ET
It's spreading!!! Portugal this time.
walruskkkch posted 06-23-99 03:14 PM ET
Thanks for the information but it does seem that specifics are hard to come by. Are the traces in parts per million or billion, higher or lower? I assume that the dioxin came into the animal feed from some kind of herbicide where it can show up as a by-product. The reason I was asking was to see if this was more a "political" crisis, a media driven calamity or an actual immediate health threat. Well, off to do more research.
As always, I remain,
Your faithful and obedient servant
(transcendence minus 880 and counting.)
Hugo Rune posted 06-23-99 03:24 PM ET
The dioxine scandal was not about contaminated foods, not really; the reason it became such an outcry was the fact that the government had known about it for about a month but decided to keep it secret until after the elections (so as not to lose even more voters). Then it leaked out anyway, meaning the government was in a very scandal-prone position...
Colon posted 06-27-99 03:18 PM ET

quote:
Child-porn scandals, government bribery scandals, poisoned-food scandals, and now I read about some football-player scandal. Belgium seems to be a country that has nothing but scandals, why is that ? Anyone ?
Child-Porn: as everyone knows, only Belgium has paedophilias, the hordes of West Europeans and American males that go to Thailand mostly consists of Belgians or American Belgians.
In Holland they just uncovered a network of child porn, that only proves that Belgium is the child porn country because despite the fact Dutch organised it and despite the fact that they had customers from all over the world, the bad Belgian influence caused it. (in case your geographical knowledge sux, Holland neighbours Belgium)
In UK there was a case of consistant abuse of children in an orphanage for years and what a coincidence, Belgium neighbours UK. (if there weren't the North Sea of course)
Worldwide survey has showed that about 1/8 males and 1/3 girls are abused in their childhood years, undoubtly the statistics in Belgium are way higher.
(BTW I hoped you noticed the somewhat sarcastic tone of mine)
Goverment bribery scandals: Yes, in Belgium politicians sometimes are corrupt, sometimes they abuse power, sometimes there's nepotism but also I recall that several other countries also had corruption and nepotism or is that the Belgian influence working again ?
Football player scandal: Eh ? What football player scandal ? Our national soccer team ain't doing well, neither is the competition, but I do not recall any scandals.
Poisoned food scandal: this is an beautiful example of mass hysteria and ignorance.
What happened ? Well, in the industrial agriculture industry (yep it's more an industry then farming activity these days) they tend to feed the livestock with dead animals, and food remants rather then with grass and oats. An example of food remnants is frying fat. We, Belgians, have fries as national dinner so we have masses of those frying fats, that we bring to recycle centers.
Some idiot was so clever to throw industrial oil into a tank that was ment for frying oil ans o did the long journey of that oil started, the oil was used to make food for our cows and chickens and the cows and chickens were used to feed us. (the non vegetarian home sapien sapiens)
Where's the ignorance and mass hysteria ? Well in the fact that all food products from Belgium were banned, including vegetables and our delicious and (in)famous) chocolate.
Would you happen to know any meat in vegetables ? In Chocolate ? (ok there's the milk used in chocolates, but by that time the amount the effect of dioxine has become very tiny)
In Japan they said the dioxine contimantion was caused by polluting plants and factories (like there aren't any in Japan) and that all Belgian food was contimanted because of that, including chocolate which is mostly made of cacao, which does not grow in Belgium.
And the best thing of it all is that everybody is panicing while they hardly know what a dioxine contamination exactly means, how much is contaminated and what the effects of it could be. (ok, this one is logical since ignorance causes fear)
I'm not an expert either, but I know that about 10% of the Belgian livestock was contaminated and that it causes cancer at long term. (that means: causes it together with the pollution, pesticides and herbicides and unhealthy life habbits - frankly I think it hardly matters cancers statistics hardly are going to be lower over 20 years of this scandal wouldn't have happened)
The coca cola "scandal": this is was caused by the use of a cleaning product to clean the shelves on which the coke is transported on I believe and I believe that a French factory also has to do something with it.
In this one Belgium is the victim and not the cause. (why is no one blaming US in this scandal ? Coca Cola does happen to be American)
Someone said the Belgian goverment fell because of all those scandals.
The last time the goverment fell was in 1991, in a dispute over weaponry export. (a part wanted regulations another didn't, for employment and economic reasons)
Two ministers have resigned, yes (the federal ministers of public health and agriculture) but the goverment hasn't fallen, I don't get what made someone think that.
(Our you would happen to confuse elections with resignations)
Frankly what I see here is ignorant people judging Belgium and having opinions about it.
I don't mind people having an opinion over Belgium or judging it and I also don't hate people who are ignorant over something but judging while being ignorant is something I cannot approve.
The problem about Belgium is that it didn't had a reputation, positive or negative nobody knew it.
And then the Dutroux scandal came, Belgium made the world press, in a negative way and got a negative reputation and since then every scandal in Belgium is focused and all positive news ignored.
This partially caused by the large amount of reporters in Belgium who are here because Brussels is "capital" of both EU and NATO, and who sometimes have nothing else to do.
(BTW I'm not saying that Belgium doesn't has problems or corruption but this reputation is undeserved and higly exaggurated)
Do me a favour and take a look at the Belgian goverment site at http://belgium.fgov.be/ and inform yourself, there's also info about the dioxin scare.
Bishop posted 06-27-99 06:37 PM ET
Hey, Colon ! Good to finally see a Belgian in this thread ! First I would like to say that the reason for starting this thread was purely out of fascination (in a manner of speaking) in the numerous "scandals" that has shook this country over the last few years. It may be true that other countries have similar problems, but it�s not portrayed in the news (which is what I used mainly as a source). It just seems that Belgium has had a "unnatural" amount of "scandals" lately.
Football player scandal: Eh ? What football player scandal ?
>>What I heard is that some football players got paid to lose (can�t remember which team, sorry). Ring a bell ?
Poisoned food scandal: this is an beautiful example of mass hysteria and ignorance.[....]
>>It�s not fact that there was a dioxine contamination so much as the government knowing about it and not saying anything.
(why is no one blaming US in this scandal ? Coca
Cola does happen to be American)
>>You�re right it�s not like me to miss an oppurtunity to trash the good ole�USofA. Hopefully this will tarnish the name and brand of Coca Cola for a long time to come !
Frankly what I see here is ignorant people judging Belgium and having opinions about it.
>>We�re not actually judging Belgium are we ? As I said I�m mostly fascinated by the numerous "scandals" recently. I can�t talk for the rest of the guys of course.
Thanks for the link I shall inform myself right away !
Bishop
Colon posted 06-27-99 10:09 PM ET
About that soccer bribery scandal, I'm not sure what you're talking about except that it sure wasn't an important news here, except in sport environments perhaps. (I don't really follow it lately)
I do recall that there are allegations all the time and sometimes they actually prove something, but it giving that as example of the corruption in Belgium isn't very wise. Why ? I also recall that these kind of things also occur in the whole of the European soccer "industry", more, in the whole world sport.

quote:
It just seems that Belgium has had a "unnatural" amount of "scandals" lately.
Hard to comment actually, I could be baised, but I'm also better informed.
There are two things that ARE true 1.Belgium is horribly complicated and therefore you cannot really judge it 2.Things like "child porn country" and "all Belgians are corrupt" are crap, altough I do not deny that there are things that have gone wrong.
Dutroux wasn't a coincidence, but not in the sense that there's more phaedophilae (horrible word to write) but that a lot of incomptence in the juridical and institutional caused it happening. (you need to know the full story before you can understand what I mean, the story is loooong and complicated, I too hardly understand what has been going on)
So something may be wrong here, but there are many positive sides on this country as well.
There may be corruption, but compared to China or Indonesia or worse, we are examplenary.

quote:
We�re not actually judging Belgium are we ? As I said I�m mostly fascinated by the numerous "scandals" recently. I can�t talk for the rest of the guys of course.
No that's true, but a lot of people are and you'll have to admit that if Belgium didn't had the reputation of corrupt country you wouldn't have started this thread.

quote:
It�s not fact that there was a dioxine contamination so much as the government knowing about it and not saying anything.
The goverment as whole didn't know it, two ministers did and for reasons no one understands they preferred not to say anything, not even to the rest of the goverment.
Someone said that it was to protect Belgian export, but that's not true because if they would have reacted sooner there wouldn't have been a dioxin crisis at all, then it would have costed several hundreds of thousands of dollars or even less instead of dozens of billions, instead of a ruined agricultural industry and collapsed industry.
The only thing that comes close to a reason are the lections that were about to come up, that they thought it wouldn't be good for their popularity.
Besides, the two or three months is nothing compared to the decade of cover ups of the dangers of BSE in UK.
Bishop posted 06-28-99 06:09 AM ET
About that soccer bribery scandal,[...]
>>I guess it was just a minor affair, it just seems to pile up with the rest of them.
Things like "child porn country" and "all Belgians are corrupt" are crap,[...]
>>Now I didn�t say that ! It�s just that there�s been a lot of "scandal" news recently and that�s what triggered my interest and this thread. And it�s the nature of this forum to discuss a wide variety of topics, (some well-informed, others not so well-informed perhaps), and it was not my intention to discredit Belgium or the Belgians (honestly).
No that's true, but a lot of people are and you'll have to admit that if Belgium didn't had the reputation
of corrupt country you wouldn't have started this thread.
>>I guess you�re right about that.
The goverment as whole didn't know it, two ministers did and for reasons no one understands they
preferred not to say anything, not even to the rest of the goverment.
That is not what I heard on the news (BBC, Euro-News, several swedish newspapers and TV-news), but I could be wrong of course.
Besides, the two or three months is nothing compared to the decade of cover ups of the dangers of
BSE in UK.
>>That is true, and if this forum had been active at that time I would have started a thread about that as well. But as it is now it�s yesterdays news (sadly), BTW I�m a vegeterian so anything that makes the meat-, poultry- and fish industry look bad is good for me
Bishop

Colon posted 06-29-99 12:47 PM ET
I know you didn't name Belgium in that way, but it happens and I've heard such comments.

quote:
That is not what I heard on the news (BBC, Euro-News, several swedish newspapers and TV-news), but I could be wrong of course.
In Japan media said the dioxin scare was created by polluted air from Belgina factories and that all Belgian food was contaminated. (that also means that they think that the dioxin pollution isn't an "accident" but a fundamental environmental problem according to them)
Were they right ? Not really.
That's something that annoyes me a lot and makes me feel like a Serb that sees his nation pictured as a evil country, the bad media coverage over Belgium.
Beleive me that we you read something about Belgium that half is colored, misunderstood by the reporter, simplified and sometimes just wrong.
I don't know what the Swedish media and BBC said but when they say that whole of the goverment knew they're simply wrong, and when they say that they hid it because of economical reasons, they're wrong as well. (Because of the reason, that when they would have reacted 3 months ago almost no economical damage would have taken place)
Bishop posted 06-29-99 07:16 PM ET
[i9n Japan media said the dioxin scare was created by polluted air from Belgina factories and that all
Belgian food was contaminated. (that also means that they think that the dioxin pollution isn't an
"accident" but a fundamental environmental problem according to them)
Were they right ? Not really.[/i]
>>Yea, one shouldn�t belive all that is said on the news I guess
That's something that annoyes me a lot and makes me feel like a Serb that sees his nation pictured
as a evil country, the bad media coverage over Belgium.
>>Yea, Belgium has taken a bad rap, that�s for sure.
I don't know what the Swedish media and BBC said but when they say that whole of the goverment
knew they're simply wrong, and when they say that they hid it because of economical reasons, they're
wrong as well. (Because of the reason, that when they would have reacted 3 months ago almost no
economical damage would have taken place)
>>If you say so...
Bishop
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