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Author Topic:   Birth of the Federation, anyone?
Kilroy posted 05-29-99 04:57 PM ET   Click Here to See the Profile for Kilroy   Click Here to Email Kilroy  
Anyone else pick this one up yet? If so, what do you think?
Octopus posted 05-29-99 07:49 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Octopus  Click Here to Email Octopus     
I got it, I'm still undecided whether I like it or not. There are some cool aspects. The minor race thing is cool (many systems are populated by minor races from the Star Trek univers, such as the Bynars or the Nausicaans) which adds a bit of flavor. Having a slightly different interface for each of the 5 major races is sort of cool tool (the Federation interface is all rounded and pastel, like the touch-controls they use on all of their equipment, while the Klingon interace has more jagged lines, and most stuff is red).

However, the interface is a bit clunky. The build queue is only 4 items deep, and you aren't alerted when a system has finished working through it's queue and moved on to Trade Goods. Also, there is no mouse-based scrolling (aside from double clicking the map), which is a major pain. The zoomed-out map is too zoomed out to be useful, but the scrolling problems make the zoomed in map hard to use. Also, colonizing is hard. I've only played a few games so far (all of which I quit because I was getting my butt kicked), but I have yet to establish a decent colony. The only time I get good systems other than my home system is when I can convince the minor races to join my empire. I can't tell if I'm getting beaten because I'm not very good or because the AI is cheating.

The combat interface is kind of cool. It is 3-D, but you don't have complete control. For each round, you can only give broad orders like "Charge", "Circle", or "Evade", and your ships try to carry them out. I've had some cool battles like this, where my guys won through superior tactics (although that was mostly accidental ) but also really stupid battles where I've had my ships hand around like sitting ducks why they were trying to pivot to implement the order I had given. It's sometimes hard to tell how your ships will do what you ask, so controlling them is a bit tricky.

My impression of the game so far is that somebody gave MoO 1, MoO 2, and every episode of The Next Generation to some programmers and said "make a game out of that". It has some cool elements, but I can't tell if it has that intangible quality that makes a great game yet.

Plasmoid posted 05-29-99 08:37 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Plasmoid  Click Here to Email Plasmoid     
Can someone post the sys requirements of BotF?
Kilroy posted 05-29-99 09:34 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Kilroy  Click Here to Email Kilroy     
sys requirements min)
133 pentium proc
win 95/98
16 mb RAM
2 mb video RAM
4x speed dc-rom
Direct-X soundcard

recomended:
200 MHz proc
32 mb Ram
8x speed cd-rom
I could give ya the multi-player if you ask nice.

Octopus:
I do have to agree. Somethings are great and others really frustrating. I really have a problem with the victory conditions. You have your choice--military or military. A diplomatic victoty option would have been really cool. And if you want to talk frustrating, have you met the Borg yet? Nothing makes me go to that 'Retire' button faster than watching a Borg cube munch on my capital. Blowing up a cube should be worth a victory also, that is, if it were possible.

Allod posted 05-30-99 05:18 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Allod  Click Here to Email Allod     
Unfortunately, it's not out in Austria yet, but I'll definitely buy it.

Octopus: As for the combat - I like the system; it reflects "reality" better than commanding all of your ships personally. But I guess that's a question of personal flavor, though.

Colon posted 05-30-99 08:10 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Colon  Click Here to Email Colon     
Appearantly it has finally been released in US, but not here (In belgium) yet.

Could anyne tell me how the game's balanced ? Is there a race that tends to be more powerful than others or vice versa ?
Is there a large or small chance that one race dominates the others, in such a way that none of the other can pose a threat to it anymore ?
Does it look a lot like Master of Orion 2 ?

Hope anyone can answer these questions.

Kilroy posted 05-30-99 01:01 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Kilroy  Click Here to Email Kilroy     
So far I've only played two races, the Federation and the Romulans. The Fed has a huge advantage when it come to diplomacy. Minor races literally line up to become members. They've also got an edge in research because of the specialized facilities (like Genesis station) they can build. Fed ships are defesive in nature, with more emphasis on shields and structure than firepower.
The Romulans have a talent for espianage, again because of special Rom-only buildings. But what really sets the Roms apart is the cloaking device. Rom ships aren't the best but if you enter combat cloaked (and there's no reason to ever switch the c.d. off) you get a 'turkey shoot' for one round due to ambush. The manual hints that certain technologies can see through the cloak. I know it didn't seem to fool the Borg.

As for the other races, I can only relay what's in the manual:

Kligons are the preeminent warrior race. Their ships are solid all around and designed for aggressive tactics. They also have three designs that can cloak. They can also maintain twice as many ships as the other empires before it starts to drag on their economy. As I said I haven't played them, but they seem to be the one-trick ponies of BoF--they can fight, but aren't great at anything else.

Cardassian ships are nearly as good as Klingons but are designed for more conservative tactics. Cards have two specialities: espianage and subjegating minor races. While the Klingons may be better at the actual fighting, the Cardassians really know how to get the most out of a slave laborer. Ask any Bajoran.

The Ferengi, as one might imagine, specialize in making money. They're second to the Federation when it comes to diplomacy and a distant third when it comes to espiage (and that's because the Fed and Klingons have no aptitude for it whatsoever). The Ferengi fleet, ship for ship, the weakest, but thier ships are cheap to build and maintain.

Anything else?

Colon posted 05-30-99 05:51 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Colon  Click Here to Email Colon     
Well yes, I didn't ask for the character specifics, I already know those.
I asked wether a specific race tends to become the major power more often than another race, and vice versa. (does a race has the tendancy to be the weakest one)

Also I asked wether it happens a lot that a race becomes the the supreme power after a while, without any chance for the other races to treathen that supremacy (that's something that tends to happen a lot in these kind of games) or vice versa.

Kilroy posted 05-30-99 09:42 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Kilroy  Click Here to Email Kilroy     
Now that that's been clearified...

The Ferengi always to seem to be a major player, probably due to all the cash they can throw around. Buying production comes pretty cheap in this game, and bribes go a long way to enhancing diplomacy. I've seen minor races in empires bail on thier patron to join the Ferengi, and bribes like that don't come cheap.

The Feds can also expand pretty quick, but it depends on which minor races are around.

On the other hand, Klingons always seem to lag behind, but that's more an impression than a pattern.

Note that I didn't say the Ferengi dominate, though. In the games I've played no AI empire really stood head and shoulders beyond the others. They're usually packed pretty close, but the Ferengi, more often than not, are on top.

Octopus posted 05-31-99 05:53 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Octopus  Click Here to Email Octopus     
Well, I thought I was finally getting the hang of it, and had a nice little empire going, and then the Borg showed up...
Kilroy posted 05-31-99 06:07 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Kilroy  Click Here to Email Kilroy     
The Borg. Don't get me started on the Borg. Those bastards ruined two games for me. One right after I commissioned my first Warbird. I don't want to think about how many ships it would take to bring down one of them cubes.
HolyWarrior posted 05-31-99 11:30 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for HolyWarrior  Click Here to Email HolyWarrior     
But BOTF is turn-based, right? Including ship combat? None of that real-time crap?

'cause if it has real-time, I won't buy it.

Octopus posted 06-01-99 12:17 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Octopus  Click Here to Email Octopus     
Yes, it's turn based, but all of the turns happen simultaneously. For example, combat is broken into rounds, and you give your ships orders (like "Strafe" or "Charge") and the computer is giving it's ships orders at the same time. Then you press the "turn" button, and the ships fly around and implement the orders you've given as best as they can (which is sometimes pretty well, and sometimes pretty poorly). Then you get another chance to give orders.

Diplomacy is also completely turn based and simultaneous. Each turn you can send out proposals, and the other races can choose to respond to them next turn if they want. This is very convenient, because if you get a proposal from someone ("let's go to war with the klingons!", for example) you have a chance to look at the rest of the game before you decide ("hmmm... I don't have a big enough fleet, I'd better not..."). You can also change your answer before the turn is over, in case you change your mind.

Strategic movement is simultaneous, too, so it can be hard to force someone to engage you, because they are moving their fleets at the same time. Each turn, you can say "go here", but when your ships get there next turn, the enemy may have moved away.

I played pretty much all day today, but I'm still undecided. The interface does have some problems, but it does seem like there are a lot of cool elements in the game. The minor races really give a lot of variety to the game, and which minor races end up where can play a big part in your strategy (although I always seem to end up with the Angosians, and they always seem to be pretty good for me).

Spoe posted 06-01-99 12:32 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Spoe  Click Here to Email Spoe     
First impression:

Decent game that could have been great.
It definately has the "one more turn" thing going for me, but it is hindered by its interface, which is not the best, and several odd bugs(I had the Sheliak bombarding one of my systems once(I was the Cardassians) and it told me the Cardassians were bombarding the systems).

The AI seems a bit weak on proper force allocations(for me, either way too weak(a destroyer vs. a star base) or way too strong(10-15 ships against an undefended planet).

Basically, I'll be playing it for a bit, but the verdict is still out.

BTW: Anyone know what the "Special Ships" that Utopia Planitia can supposedly build are?

Darkstar posted 06-01-99 02:53 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Darkstar  Click Here to Email Darkstar     
This is a Trekkie/Trekker toy... but not much else.

The game gives much too much power to the Feds due to their Diplomacy bonuses. It was meant for the Feds to win. Proof: Start all factions at 1. Play many minor races. Convince those races with 5+ tech rating, Dilith, and ship yards to your side. Poof. Roll over those enemies with your superior ships. This is what the AI does to you, so its what you have to do to them to stay even. Setting the game to easy just buys you enough time to get 2 minor hi-tech races so that you can roll over the opponents.

Don't bother with troop transports on planetary assaults. Pile on the ships and wipe them off the face of the earth. AI colonizes poorly, but colonies won't matter. Just getting AI races. Burn the buggers, and build outposts to enable you to get all the enemy planets...

Sorry... I finding I am disappointed with the lack of strategy or thought put into the game.

-Darkstar

Octopus posted 06-01-99 10:22 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Octopus  Click Here to Email Octopus     
Darkstar: Don't start on starting tech level 1. This gives the advantage to the feds. I have been playing all my games on starting tech level 2 (the default) and the federation has never been the primary threat (except when I was playing them) (also, I haven't played that many games, but the way you're talking it should be obvious). I'll bet that if you started on tech level 3 or 4 the Klingons would probably kick butt.

And as for wiping out colonies and repopulating their worlds: Even when I was trying, I couldn't do that. How many ships have you got in your fleets? Also wiping out the minor races is stupid, because then you can't get their special buildings.

Darkstar posted 06-01-99 06:26 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Darkstar  Click Here to Email Darkstar     
Octopus - Hey, I wanted to see the game from the ground up. I've seen it. Its left me with the thoughts - Damn, wasted my money... and Damn, if I had left it shrink-wrapped, I'd be able to toss it in my Trek storage and sell it for some positive bucks later.

You don't need that many ships to fry a world. And I *HATE* minor races... They kept the Cardasians, Romulans, and Feds alive when i was playing as Feringi. Wiped out their home worlds and colonies without having more than 3 command cruise class and 6 fast, but couldn't touch the minor race worlds with 20 Troop Transports, 20 Command Cruisers and 34 Fast attack class ships. Most of the ships would die, all the transport, against MINOR races whose pop was only between 200 to 250, and had only 3 planetary batteries. Suck suck suck! But when I took those home worlds, they had lots more there, and higher tech for Roms and Feds. Make sense? Nope.

Turning the Minor races OFF (as they disgustingly throw out the balance to the races that can deal with them well), and you almost have a game. Except its too slow and EASY to win, as its easy to take a major race planet from the 8 games I have played since buying it.

BotF will be a waste of money except to die hard Star Trek Fans. Even die hard Galatic Conquest Strategy game fans (like myself) will find that as soon as the eye candy value wears off, so does the game's enjoyment. This is certainly shelf ware, and unlike some others that get retired for a while, won't be coming back for a repeat try.

Now I am going to have to wait for Sid's Moo3. Sigh. 2 more years for that... Well, there is always Moo, Spaceward Ho!, Pax Imperia, Acsendancy, and maybe even Moo2...

-Darkstar

SnowFire posted 06-01-99 10:26 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for SnowFire  Click Here to Email SnowFire     
MOO III? Really, I'd prefer MOO 2.5 first... fix the idiotic game rules, spruce up the AI, improve the race ability selectioon, and you have a great game. And oh yes, make it a _lot_ tougher to kill the Antarans. I remember many a game of MOO II when I had just built my galactic conquest fleet with mid-level tech when I realized I could simply use it to crush the puny Antarans. Who ever needed the high-level stuff?
SnowFire posted 06-01-99 10:30 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for SnowFire  Click Here to Email SnowFire     
And oh yes. Based on this review, I know that I have plenty of things earlier in the queue than this... not only can I keep making HOMM III scenarios from here to eternity, but games like Imperialism II I'd rather play first. Who knows, maybe two years from now in a bargain bin...

Ah well, at least I'll get this before CTP.

Kilroy posted 06-01-99 11:05 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Kilroy  Click Here to Email Kilroy     
Darkstar may have a point, as far as Trekkies are concerned. While I won't write off the game entirely, I'll concede that the game has some flaws, and Trekies would be more likely to suck it in and try to live with them. Looks like I'm still searching for that game to knock MoOII of it's pearch.

One thing I don't agree with, and that's Pax Imperia. Ye bloody gods did that game suck! Within a week I was using it for a coaster. Alas, I digress. I also disagree on the Minor Race issue. One just needs patience, supplemented by the occasional bribe, and minors usually fall into place.
CrayonX posted 06-02-99 03:51 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for CrayonX    
Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think Sid Meier was involved with the Master of Orion series...
Kilroy posted 06-02-99 04:08 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Kilroy  Click Here to Email Kilroy     
You are correct sir. I just glanced at my MoOII manual and Sid's nowhere to be found. Civ and MoO were both Microprose releases, and that the likely source of the confusion.
Raven of Despair posted 06-03-99 11:22 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Raven of Despair    
MOO and MOO2 were developed by SimTex, which was associated with MicroProse. I believe that MicroProse shut them down awhile back. SimTex also developed Master of Magic, which really needs a well-made sequel.
Personally, I think that I will give BOTF a pass. I don't like Trek enough to buy it, and I still have MOO2 on my drive.
Snowfire: I do have Imperialism II, and I really like it. It is not for everyone, though. Have you bought it yet, or are you thinking about it.
SnowFire posted 06-03-99 02:03 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for SnowFire  Click Here to Email SnowFire     
Haven't bought it yet. Besides, I never finished my Myth II campaign... and if I want to, I can play Myth II online from here to eternity. And I still have HOMM III scenarios to finish, as I said before...

I won't be playing SMAC for awhile.

CrayonX posted 06-07-99 07:00 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for CrayonX    
I got BOTF a few days ago and it's not bad, but not good. It's kind of weird though...it's not as immersive as I thought it would be, and feels basically like a stilted version of MOO2.

I was hoping for some scenarios or pre-made maps but there were none to be found. I was also disappointed with the "tutorials" where you have to print the Adobe Acrobat files. I prefer strictly online tuorials a.l.a. Imperialism II.

Also, I was hoping for a more that just 2 victory conditions. Domination or Vendetta? No democratic solutions like Global Peace?

As well, the minor races should be allowed to evolve into major ones over time. As it stands they just kind of hang out in their own little sector and join whomever and when someone gets them mad, declare war.

I guess the overall atmosphere is captured, but the reporting structure seems kind of lacklustre. The way the borders/disputed zones etc are set up is good.

Also, the research tree takes forever when you balance it out over the types (it took me almost 40+ turns to get 2 uurelated techs) and with the absence of any sort of time indicators except for what turn you're on, it makes the whole gameplay seem a little unbalanced (in the time it takes to circumnavigate the medium galaxy I can only have 20 conversations with another race? I liked the immediate conversations a la SMAC and MOO2 and none of this subspace delay crap).

All in all I give it *** out of ****, or only a 60%. Of course, I've only played for about 4 hours, but you know what they say about first impressions.

CrayonX posted 06-07-99 07:07 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for CrayonX    
Whoops *** out of ***** is 60%, which is what I meant.
Raven of Despair posted 06-08-99 11:20 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Raven of Despair    
Just one warning: DON'T complain about this game on any BOTF forums. If you thought that fans of SMAC were hostile to criticism, you ain't seen nothin' yet. Ye Gods. Talk about a cult.
Kilroy posted 06-08-99 06:51 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Kilroy  Click Here to Email Kilroy     
Yes, Tekkies can be a cliquish lot. BTW, where are these BoTF forums you spoke of?
DerekM posted 06-09-99 01:35 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for DerekM  Click Here to Email DerekM     
I bought the game and have been playing it for about a week now. Here are the breakdown:

There are some good ideas here. The minor races do add something -- they react differently to different empires, they each have a special buidling they can build, etc. Borders are tracked, and you can have "contested sectors" between empires. You can give up your claim to those sectors or demand that somebody else give up his. The five major races have distinct abilities and special buildings (although they aren't all that well documented). I like the way they handle terraforming a system -- each system has multiple planets, but you can only use the ones you have terraformed.

Bad:

The interface is a little clunky. Reporting isn't what it should be, especially in the area of fleet management. Minor races can be too powerful. Developing colonies takes to long -- the only way to really develop is to spend money (which you do get plenty of, at least) to buy production. The documentation is too sparse, although it isn't horrible.

Overall:

It is an OK game. It has some good ideas. With a better interface, it could be a very good game. If you are a huge fan of turn-based strategy, then try it out. If you are a big Star Trek fan, then try it out, too. You'll love all of the references to the Star Trek universe. (I knew that having a Tarellian ship show up in my solar system was bad, but there was nothing to tell the uninitiated about WHY it was bad -- i.e., plague. Good use of Star Trek. Bad documentation.)

CrayonX posted 06-09-99 07:01 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for CrayonX    
Yesterday I was playing and all my colonies were getting raided like crazy by the Yridians, forcing me to keep building a fleet to keep them away. Usually the major powers will leave me alone (I've only played with Federation so far) or just use diplomacy the whole time. It's those minor races that get on my nerves. So far I haven't experiences the "flock to me" effect others have experienced with minor planets.

Also, just when I was soaring ahead of the other major races in all the other categories, I got attacked by the Calamarain and all my systems suffered heavy damage. Sounds kind of convenient to me.

It's okay, but the turns sure take a long time, even at the very beginning.

I stand by my origianl assessment and score.

JT 3 posted 06-09-99 07:29 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for JT 3  Click Here to Email JT 3     
Crayon: It's like SMAC. Don't blame the game if you lose a war 'cause you don't have enough units. Can't build all the SP's without a few Garrison.
Kilroy posted 06-09-99 11:24 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Kilroy  Click Here to Email Kilroy     
JT 3:

I don't know if you're familiar with the game, but some of those 'indie' ships like the Calamarian, the Husnock, the Crystal Entity and the Borg (especially the Borg) are real can-kickers. The Crystal can destroy at least six early-generation ships PER ROUND. Later ship designs even out the odds, but still has to expect heavy casualties if your playing any empire other than the Roms (or Klingons if you have Birds of Prey). After destroying the Crystal entity three times in one game, I've now decide to turn the 'random events' off. They're all a pain in the ass anyway.

Octopus posted 06-09-99 11:54 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Octopus  Click Here to Email Octopus     
As annoying as the random things like the Calamarain are, they are at least better than the ridiculously underpowered space monsters in MOO and MOO2. Remember, narrowly averting crises that could mean the end of civilization is part of Star Trek, too . Besides, most of the random ships don't hurt your colonies, just your ships and space stations.

I haven't played the game in a few days. I started one game in which I was the Cardassians, and I had the Benzites in my neighboring star system. And then the game locked up (first and only time I've seen that...). That Benzite special building looked so sweet that I can't get into playing any games where I can't use it... (And I'm sick of always getting those those pain-in-the-ass Mintakans!).

Kilroy posted 06-10-99 12:04 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Kilroy  Click Here to Email Kilroy     
I think the Mintakans carry some sort of space-whammy. Every time I let them into my empire things start to head south real quick. Antedeans get my vote for most 'annoying race' though

As a general interst message, I've found something that I think may be a bug. Whenever I flyby a minor race that's already part of an empire, either by treaty or conquest, I don't always get their into screen and they don't always appear in the diplomacy menu. Furthermore, I've liberated minor races, got a "thanks a bunch" statement but then I couldn't propose any treaties because they were non-entities to my diplomacy screen. Is this a common problem or is it just me?

Raven of Despair posted 06-10-99 04:14 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Raven of Despair    
Kilroy- The BOTF forums that I spoke of are on the Sidgames site. Http://www.sidgames.com, I believe. They also have sections on Civ, SMAC, CTP, Gettysburg!, Pirates!,Railroad Tycoon2, and Imperialism2. Pretty good site.

Octopus: generally I agree with you about the MOO2 monsters, except that I would get 'em early enough in the game that they could be a pain.

Spoe posted 06-10-99 05:06 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Spoe  Click Here to Email Spoe     
" Furthermore, I've liberated minor races, got a 'thanks a bunch' statement but then I couldn't propose any treaties because they were non-entities to my diplomacy screen. Is this a common problem or is it just me?"

I've seen it. I've also seen the Sheliak bombarding one of my smaller colonies and have the computer tell me I was bombarding my own colony.

Famous Eccles posted 06-10-99 05:14 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Famous Eccles  Click Here to Email Famous Eccles     
couple of bugs
If you have a group cloaked, and uncloaked in a system, the cloaked cannot bombard that turn (as it should be) , but if you redeploy, it becomes ok.

also if an outpost is destroyed and a ship nearby is suddenly out of its range limit, it just gets infinite range!

Kilroy posted 06-10-99 07:07 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Kilroy  Click Here to Email Kilroy     
Famous:

I've found that in order to bombard you have to de-cloak a round before. If you set you ships toward their destinations and de-cloak a round before they arrive, you should be cool.

A question for Klingon players: are those armed colony ships and transports good for anything? Ever take anyone out with an armed colony ship?

Spoe posted 06-10-99 07:21 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Spoe  Click Here to Email Spoe     
They're good for driving off unarmed ships. ITHey also help in bombardments.
umbra1 posted 06-13-99 11:58 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for umbra1    
I've got a problem with this game... It "Flickers", When I'm moving arround on the map screen it get these little graphic glitches on all over my screen. Anyone else seen this ?

(Celeron 333, 64mb, with Hercules terminator beast 8mb AGP going to a creative labs 12mb voodooII, and YES MY F***ING DRIVERS are up to date.)

umbra1 posted 06-13-99 12:01 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for umbra1    
BTW, where are the BOFT forums ? I need to vent more spleen.
Raven of Despair posted 06-15-99 11:09 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Raven of Despair    
They are at sidgames. BUT...beware! You will get flamed by those people if you don't completely love it. Oh, and you will be banned very quickly. Dissent is not tolerated. I feel that even a post like Analyst's (remember those?) on BOTF would get yanked. It is too bad, because I like the other forums there. (Gettysburg, Imp2, etc.)
Allod posted 06-15-99 11:31 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Allod  Click Here to Email Allod     
umbra1: I have problems too. Anyone who thinks he can help me please look at my thread "OK, all you tech-wizards, here's ahard one for you!"

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