Terraforming Venus - Alpha Centauri Forums

  Alpha Centauri Forums
  Non-SMAC related
  Terraforming Venus

profile | register | prefs | faq | search

Author Topic:   Terraforming Venus

Khan Singh posted 05-25-99 10:22 AM ET
Venus is an attractive prospect for terraforming because it is pretty much the same size as Earth and has the same gravity. It is also close enough to the Sun to have adequate insolation for plant life.
There are, however, a lot of bad things about Venus. Its day is too way too long, its atmosphere and temperature are deadly and it (apparently) has very little water. Terraforming will be a big job.
I suggest that the best way to start is to build a solar shade to decrease Venus' temperature to below the freezing point of carbon dioxide. That should drastically reduce atmospheric pressure and allow the establishment of surface facilities on the uplands.
The next step is water. If Venus has enough water for large oceans, fine. Plow the snow out of your way and proceed to the next step. If it doesn't, however, if instead the hydrogen has outgassed and the oxygen is bound up in dioxides, then things get tricky. You could build hydrogen collection stations in orbit to collect interplanetary hydrogen, then "beam" it down to Venus in an ionized stream. That might take a while, though, since we could be facing a deficit of something on the order of 100 trillion tonnes of hydrogen. Maybe you could find some inside the mantle, but given Venus' hot environment any hydrogen there has probably outgassed to the atmosphere and thence to space.
Any other bright ideas on how to get a lot of hydrogen to Venus in something under ten thousand years?
Zero_Gauss posted 05-25-99 01:16 PM ET
Khan: You're missing the obvious solution! Think about it for a minute, what is relatively common and in abundance, has a LOT of water, and is easy to get to venus where it can do some good?
A COMET! That's right, just gather up some comets and chuck 'em into Venus's gravity well. We could do it right now, with ion thrusters (well it would be better if we had fusion and better robotics first). It will still take a while, but that's the best way to put a lot of hydrogen (h20 baby!) into venus really FAST.
the sentient magnetic entity,
Zero-Gauss
JohnIII posted 05-25-99 01:29 PM ET
Europa would be good, if the Monoliths don't stop us and the Jupiter -> Lucifer transformation occurs...
John III
Hugo Rune posted 05-25-99 02:06 PM ET
I say genetically engineered Algae are the solution...
God Emperor Eccles V posted 05-25-99 04:56 PM ET
Ha, and you think there have not been feasability studies before. I hold three in my hand now.
Venus has not enough water concentrated in the supposed 'living zone' (i.e 60km up). Also, vast quantity of carbon that needs to be taken out of the biosphere would take a looong time (thesis number 1 says 8,000 years, number 2 says 11,000)
also, since Venus has a bloody great big atmosphere it would need quite a bit of plant material for the CO2/Oxygen and pressure levels to be almost equal to earth , and the nitrogen needed for the plant materials would certainly run out first.(Studies 3 and 4 both say this, tee-hee)
Also, as the concentration of CO2 decreases the relative concentration of sulphuric acid will increase. (God this reminds me of School!) This means any bacteria will eventually get acid baked.
Sorry to Dampen.....

God Emperor Eccles V posted 05-25-99 04:58 PM ET
Also a solar shade would itself heat up (even turn some of the light into infared, being of great help!).
How does a solar shade work anyway?, is it a planet sized disc that blocks out all the light?
Victor Galis posted 05-25-99 05:46 PM ET
I say go with the algae (that's how I always pictured the terraformation of Venus.)
You'd have to somehow make sure that they could conduct some form of modified photosynthesis where they don't need as much water and can take in some sulfur.
SnowFire posted 05-25-99 10:11 PM ET
Some problems with what you say:
A. To below the freezing point of carbon dioxide? Do you realize how cold it is before Carbon Dioxide, a gas, becomes a solid? You'd have to get it about as cool as Pluto, and that would take a pretty pig solar shade. Plus, while icy climes are easier to colonize than sunny ones, this may be a bit TOO cold for us.
B. The comets you refer to might just make things worse. The water would instantly evaporate, and water vapor is another intensifier of the greenhouse effect- it would only get hotter on the surface, and it wouldn't create wells of pure water either, just slightly less acidic acid. Of course, this assumes you haven't just frozen the planet.
Ronbo posted 05-25-99 10:56 PM ET
Actually, the algae idea has been postulated before, by people who know what they are talking about. I cannot remember the title of the book, but the author of the article was a gentleman named Adrian Berry. A search might uncover his well-researched idea...
MichaeltheGreat posted 05-25-99 11:40 PM ET
A few more problems - comets won't really be steerable, they are either two massive (pick one out of an astronomical catalog and calculate the required force to displace it's trajectory by even one degree of arc. Other than the huge energy requirement, you'd rip the thing apart and turn it into a gravitationally bound collection of dust, etc. Also, it would take a lot of comets to make up an ocean, plus you have to account for the evidence of geologically recent volcanism and seismic activity.
The solar shade idea also has a problem in terms of higher energy radiation casuing damage to the materials used - what it does't reflect, it absorbs, and there are no materials which reflect strongly in all necessary ranges of the EM spectrum. The absorbence/reflection properties are a function of the quantum energy levels of the electrons, primarily valence electrons, so there are limited options for designing new materials - solar shades for a particular wavelength are feasible, but probably not that close to the sun.
Just to futher ruin life, you have to deal with material stresses, etc. as this thing would have to flex and move, etc. from the effects of absorbing and reflecting so much energy. If you can chemically deal with the greenhouse effect, the insolation of venus is ideal - earth would be a lot colder without the limited natural greenhouse effect from the earth's atmosphere.
The problem with chemistry is that all that CO2 came from somewhere - most likely geological processes, so it may still be generated even now.
Khan Singh posted 05-26-99 09:58 AM ET
Let's assume that the mirror is 1000 km in diameter. Placed in a stationkeeping orbit to cast a Venus sized shadow it will absorb and reflect, per unit area, about 125 times the light and energy at Venus' orbit, or about( if I remember correctly) 175 times the amount of solar flux at the Earth's orbit. This should be within the capabilities of current technology.
The shade will also be subject to radiation damage, impact damage, and everything else that can go wrong in space. But nothing says we can't continuously repair it. An attached space station could provide maintanance staff and control.
There isn't really any need for the shade to block all solar radiation. Venus will still have an atmosphere which will block most of the shorter wavelengths. You just block sufficient energy to allow Venus to cool.
Eventually you would also need solar mirrors to reflect sunlight to the night side of Venus, to give it a more Earth-like day-night cycle. So the solar shade would provide valuable operating experience.
Comets probably are the answer to the water problem. A couple of big ones might do the job. We could wait for one to head in and then slowly manuever its orbit so it hits Venus with minimum velocity. Even if most comets consist of a lot of small chunks, we could still manuever the chunks together. It would be a tricky job, but we are talking about building a new planet. Solving these sorts of problems is just par for the course.
Once you get Venus cold enough, then you start working on the chemistry problems. Leaving aside nanotechnology, you would probably need to build large atmospheric processors. They would enzymatically or electrically process the atmospher into O2 and some stable and convenient carbon chain. The sulfer could be used to help with the carbon reformation and then bound with it or with material from the crust to form a relatively harmless compound. As more of the atmosphere is converted, the temperature could be raised to vaporize more ice and that new atmosphere would be processed. This step would take a few decades (at least).
Eventually you will have processed most of the sulfer out of the planet and bound it with excess carbon. You can then raise the temperature to Earth levels, melt the water to form the oceans and start introducing your colonizing life. Simple!
I thought there was plenty of nitrogen on Venus, but I don't have the latest reference work here. I look it up somewhere on-line.
To close this thread, click here (moderator or admin only).


Hop to:

Contact Us | Alpha Centauri Home

Powered by: Ultimate Bulletin Board, Version 5.18
© Madrona Park, Inc., 1998.

Author	Topic: Terraforming Venus
Khan Singh	posted 05-25-99 10:22 AM ET Venus is an attractive prospect for terraforming because it is pretty much the same size as Earth and has the same gravity. It is also close enough to the Sun to have adequate insolation for plant life. There are, however, a lot of bad things about Venus. Its day is too way too long, its atmosphere and temperature are deadly and it (apparently) has very little water. Terraforming will be a big job. I suggest that the best way to start is to build a solar shade to decrease Venus' temperature to below the freezing point of carbon dioxide. That should drastically reduce atmospheric pressure and allow the establishment of surface facilities on the uplands. The next step is water. If Venus has enough water for large oceans, fine. Plow the snow out of your way and proceed to the next step. If it doesn't, however, if instead the hydrogen has outgassed and the oxygen is bound up in dioxides, then things get tricky. You could build hydrogen collection stations in orbit to collect interplanetary hydrogen, then "beam" it down to Venus in an ionized stream. That might take a while, though, since we could be facing a deficit of something on the order of 100 trillion tonnes of hydrogen. Maybe you could find some inside the mantle, but given Venus' hot environment any hydrogen there has probably outgassed to the atmosphere and thence to space. Any other bright ideas on how to get a lot of hydrogen to Venus in something under ten thousand years?
Zero_Gauss	posted 05-25-99 01:16 PM ET Khan: You're missing the obvious solution! Think about it for a minute, what is relatively common and in abundance, has a LOT of water, and is easy to get to venus where it can do some good? A COMET! That's right, just gather up some comets and chuck 'em into Venus's gravity well. We could do it right now, with ion thrusters (well it would be better if we had fusion and better robotics first). It will still take a while, but that's the best way to put a lot of hydrogen (h20 baby!) into venus really FAST. the sentient magnetic entity, Zero-Gauss
JohnIII	posted 05-25-99 01:29 PM ET Europa would be good, if the Monoliths don't stop us and the Jupiter -> Lucifer transformation occurs... John III
Hugo Rune	posted 05-25-99 02:06 PM ET I say genetically engineered Algae are the solution...
God Emperor Eccles V	posted 05-25-99 04:56 PM ET Ha, and you think there have not been feasability studies before. I hold three in my hand now. Venus has not enough water concentrated in the supposed 'living zone' (i.e 60km up). Also, vast quantity of carbon that needs to be taken out of the biosphere would take a looong time (thesis number 1 says 8,000 years, number 2 says 11,000) also, since Venus has a bloody great big atmosphere it would need quite a bit of plant material for the CO2/Oxygen and pressure levels to be almost equal to earth , and the nitrogen needed for the plant materials would certainly run out first.(Studies 3 and 4 both say this, tee-hee) Also, as the concentration of CO2 decreases the relative concentration of sulphuric acid will increase. (God this reminds me of School!) This means any bacteria will eventually get acid baked. Sorry to Dampen.....
God Emperor Eccles V	posted 05-25-99 04:58 PM ET Also a solar shade would itself heat up (even turn some of the light into infared, being of great help!). How does a solar shade work anyway?, is it a planet sized disc that blocks out all the light?
Victor Galis	posted 05-25-99 05:46 PM ET I say go with the algae (that's how I always pictured the terraformation of Venus.) You'd have to somehow make sure that they could conduct some form of modified photosynthesis where they don't need as much water and can take in some sulfur.
SnowFire	posted 05-25-99 10:11 PM ET Some problems with what you say: A. To below the freezing point of carbon dioxide? Do you realize how cold it is before Carbon Dioxide, a gas, becomes a solid? You'd have to get it about as cool as Pluto, and that would take a pretty pig solar shade. Plus, while icy climes are easier to colonize than sunny ones, this may be a bit TOO cold for us. B. The comets you refer to might just make things worse. The water would instantly evaporate, and water vapor is another intensifier of the greenhouse effect- it would only get hotter on the surface, and it wouldn't create wells of pure water either, just slightly less acidic acid. Of course, this assumes you haven't just frozen the planet.
Ronbo	posted 05-25-99 10:56 PM ET Actually, the algae idea has been postulated before, by people who know what they are talking about. I cannot remember the title of the book, but the author of the article was a gentleman named Adrian Berry. A search might uncover his well-researched idea...
MichaeltheGreat	posted 05-25-99 11:40 PM ET A few more problems - comets won't really be steerable, they are either two massive (pick one out of an astronomical catalog and calculate the required force to displace it's trajectory by even one degree of arc. Other than the huge energy requirement, you'd rip the thing apart and turn it into a gravitationally bound collection of dust, etc. Also, it would take a lot of comets to make up an ocean, plus you have to account for the evidence of geologically recent volcanism and seismic activity. The solar shade idea also has a problem in terms of higher energy radiation casuing damage to the materials used - what it does't reflect, it absorbs, and there are no materials which reflect strongly in all necessary ranges of the EM spectrum. The absorbence/reflection properties are a function of the quantum energy levels of the electrons, primarily valence electrons, so there are limited options for designing new materials - solar shades for a particular wavelength are feasible, but probably not that close to the sun. Just to futher ruin life, you have to deal with material stresses, etc. as this thing would have to flex and move, etc. from the effects of absorbing and reflecting so much energy. If you can chemically deal with the greenhouse effect, the insolation of venus is ideal - earth would be a lot colder without the limited natural greenhouse effect from the earth's atmosphere. The problem with chemistry is that all that CO2 came from somewhere - most likely geological processes, so it may still be generated even now.
Khan Singh	posted 05-26-99 09:58 AM ET Let's assume that the mirror is 1000 km in diameter. Placed in a stationkeeping orbit to cast a Venus sized shadow it will absorb and reflect, per unit area, about 125 times the light and energy at Venus' orbit, or about( if I remember correctly) 175 times the amount of solar flux at the Earth's orbit. This should be within the capabilities of current technology. The shade will also be subject to radiation damage, impact damage, and everything else that can go wrong in space. But nothing says we can't continuously repair it. An attached space station could provide maintanance staff and control. There isn't really any need for the shade to block all solar radiation. Venus will still have an atmosphere which will block most of the shorter wavelengths. You just block sufficient energy to allow Venus to cool. Eventually you would also need solar mirrors to reflect sunlight to the night side of Venus, to give it a more Earth-like day-night cycle. So the solar shade would provide valuable operating experience. Comets probably are the answer to the water problem. A couple of big ones might do the job. We could wait for one to head in and then slowly manuever its orbit so it hits Venus with minimum velocity. Even if most comets consist of a lot of small chunks, we could still manuever the chunks together. It would be a tricky job, but we are talking about building a new planet. Solving these sorts of problems is just par for the course. Once you get Venus cold enough, then you start working on the chemistry problems. Leaving aside nanotechnology, you would probably need to build large atmospheric processors. They would enzymatically or electrically process the atmospher into O2 and some stable and convenient carbon chain. The sulfer could be used to help with the carbon reformation and then bound with it or with material from the crust to form a relatively harmless compound. As more of the atmosphere is converted, the temperature could be raised to vaporize more ice and that new atmosphere would be processed. This step would take a few decades (at least). Eventually you will have processed most of the sulfer out of the planet and bound it with excess carbon. You can then raise the temperature to Earth levels, melt the water to form the oceans and start introducing your colonizing life. Simple! I thought there was plenty of nitrogen on Venus, but I don't have the latest reference work here. I look it up somewhere on-line.