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Author Topic:   Russian Politics: Who would be least bad as President?
Hugo Rune posted 05-19-99 07:41 AM ET   Click Here to See the Profile for Hugo Rune   Click Here to Email Hugo Rune  
Take your pick.

Alexandr Lebed: Former Military commander. Armed and dangerous. Right Wing Populist. Would you buy a used car from this man?

Victor Chernomedyn: The "Brought" man. Squarely in the pocket of the big industry. Likely to pursue anything that will profit the big industry.

Gennady Zyuganov: So-called "communist". Really, an anti-semitic stalinist.

Vladimir Zhirinovsky: Lunatic.

Yevgeny Primakov: Former Spy, KGB man. No-one knows much about him. Generally untrustworthy.

If Yeltsin Snuffs it, which of these would you like to see as president?

Roland posted 05-19-99 08:59 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Roland  Click Here to Email Roland     
Chernomyrdin would be the smallest evil, I suppose. Jablinsky (hope I got the name right) would be better, but has no chance.

Also, you forgot the mayor of Moscow... Lushkov ?

BTW, I forget all kinds of names, not just russian ones...

Doctor Who posted 05-19-99 09:24 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Doctor Who  Click Here to Email Doctor Who     
Of those you mentioned, I'd go with Chernomyrdin.
Actually, I think the best solution would be to reinstate a Czar, but somehow I have the feeling that you will disagree :-)
Saras posted 05-19-99 09:50 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Saras  Click Here to Email Saras     
Yavlinsky would probably be best, but has just a small chance. I would think that either Primakov or Chernomyrdin or Luzhkov. God help us if its Ziuganov or any other of the lunatics - Zhir, Bakashov or Anpilov.

Saras
200 km from Russia, 50 km from Belarus

Doctor Who posted 05-19-99 09:54 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Doctor Who  Click Here to Email Doctor Who     
Saras,- Just curious. How would you feel about a russian Czar/Czarina ?
Saras posted 05-19-99 10:08 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Saras  Click Here to Email Saras     
Dr. Who?
Saras posted 05-19-99 10:17 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Saras  Click Here to Email Saras     
I don't know. It is highly unlikely, though. But as long as he does not want to re-create the Russian empire and the Russian population feels fine about it, why not? I mean, even if monarchy is a bad system, if it makes Russia more stable and prosperous, it's fine with me. What I really care about is whether or not will I see Russian tanks on the streets -- again. Anything that makes it a smaller possiblity is very good. But some day this monarchy would have to go, too. All of them do some day.

Saras
Anti-monarchist

JohnIII posted 05-19-99 01:36 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for JohnIII  Click Here to Email JohnIII     
Yevgeny Primakov. Sit back and hope .
John III
Hugo Rune posted 05-19-99 01:46 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Hugo Rune  Click Here to Email Hugo Rune     
If there would be a tsardom, what kind of government would there be? A monarchical dictatorship or a constitutional monarchy with a government picked by the duma?

Man, can't they find some decent politicians anywhere in russia?

About Chernomyrdin... Remember who previously in history was hand-picked by big business to run the country and fed with money. Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, Pinochet, etc....

Imran Siddiqui posted 05-19-99 01:58 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Imran Siddiqui  Click Here to Email Imran Siddiqui     
Actually Rune, Chernomyrdin is not a fascist, he is a free-market guy (and if you think that is fascist, then you better read some more). He might benefit industry, but I don't think he'd sell free-market capitalism down the river.

Imran Siddiqui

Hugo Rune posted 05-19-99 02:03 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Hugo Rune  Click Here to Email Hugo Rune     
Free-market Capitalism = Fascism.
SnowFire posted 05-19-99 02:05 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for SnowFire  Click Here to Email SnowFire     
I gotta go with Primakov as the least evil. I agree with HR in that Chenomedyin may be deceptively nice when he isn't. But no matter. If Zhinorvosky, with the aid of an alien race, somehow got into control of Russia, God help Saras. I suggest you head for our fine country across the pond ASAP in case of that.
Ronbo posted 05-19-99 03:30 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronbo  Click Here to Email Ronbo     
Hugo,

Please differentiate Fascism from Communism for me. Not platitudes or best-case scenarios, just real-world applications. Remember that racism is not always a component of Fascism (Spain and Italy had fascist governments, without Hitler's anti-semetism).

SnowFire posted 05-19-99 03:52 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for SnowFire  Click Here to Email SnowFire     
Ah yes, I haven't had a "post then find out others had already posted" experience in awhile.

Ronbo, an odd opening. Facism and communism are miles apart, at least in ideology, and also considering they want to kill each other. The difference is facism is an authoritarian government that makes no pretenses, while communism isn't really supposed to be a dictatorship, it just tends to turn into one (which is where the problems start. Unlike a democracy, which can survive a few bad leaders, a communist dictatorship can be irrevocably changed to a despotism with one bad leader.).

Also, Imran, HR didn't call Chemyordin a facist, though he seems to now in his second post (which I disagree with). I think that the USA, Britain, Japan, etc. are proof that free-market capatalism does not neccesarily entail facism. Capatalists, when confused and paranoid of commies, will turn to facism to prevent the commies from coming to power (Italy, Germany). But if there's a strong democratic tradition, you can have both a strong liberal democracy as well as capatalist or semi-capatalist economy.

Victor Galis posted 05-19-99 06:00 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Victor Galis  Click Here to Email Victor Galis     
"Alexandr Lebed: Former Military commander. Armed and dangerous. Right Wing Populist. Would you buy a used car from this man?"

-Decent, but he's a nationalist.

"Victor Chernomedyn: The "Brought" man. Squarely in the pocket of the big industry. Likely to pursue anything that will profit the big industry."

-The last shred of equality in Russia would die, but at least they'd have an economy.

"Gennady Zyuganov: So-called "communist". Really, an anti-semitic stalinist."

-I hope someone overthrows him soon.

"Vladimir Zhirinovsky: Lunatic."

-Ach, lieber Gott, nein! (Oh wait I don't believe in God)

"Yevgeny Primakov: Former Spy, KGB man. No-one knows much about him. Generally untrustworthy."

-Nationalist, wants 1 million man KGB, need I say more? (At least better than Mr. Zhir.)

Roland posted 05-20-99 03:27 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Roland  Click Here to Email Roland     
Imran, Chernomyrdin and free market ? He's serving the interests of the old, not really privitized, state-run conglomerates turned into monpolies. The man from Gazprom and free market ? No....
Ronbo posted 05-20-99 03:28 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronbo  Click Here to Email Ronbo     
Snowfire:

The reason I asked for a definition is because there is no practical difference between the two. They are so far apart ideologically that they are indistinguishable. Call it the Omega effect; much like the two ends of the Greek letter Omega, they are so far apart, yet so close together. I wanted an explanation because of his ad hominem attack on free-market economics. Nazi Germany and Italy did not practice free-market economics, and no fascist country could; the tenets of capitalism effectively renounce the idea of a powerful government. I wanted a real defense of a statement that was made without any substantive basis in fact. I suppose I wanted too much.

Saras posted 05-20-99 09:09 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Saras  Click Here to Email Saras     
Ronbo, relax - our tOFfGI is quite a normal guy, but sometimes falls into his anti-reality mania and becomes a complete idiot, making stupid statements. It'll pass.

Hugo - gotcha

Hugo Rune posted 05-20-99 09:17 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Hugo Rune  Click Here to Email Hugo Rune     
SnowFire: I forgot to put a smily after my last post. It was a joke, non?

Anyway, Pinochet was not a Fascist.

Grosshaus posted 05-21-99 03:37 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Grosshaus  Click Here to Email Grosshaus     
I don't know which guy he is, but at least the Finnish press thinks the governor of St. Petersburg would be the best: west-oriented, capitalistic mixed economy, no direct corruption links... I think he was Luzkhov, or Lushkov, or whatever.

This thread is quite hard for me to understand, because all of the names are written different in Finnish. Jeltsin, Jevgeni, Tsernomyrdin, Tsuganov...

DanS posted 05-22-99 02:30 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for DanS  Click Here to Email DanS     
I think many Americans find Lebed's straight-shooting to be refreshing (no BS). If he became president, I'm sure if his cabinet acted up, he would just beat them silly, like he did to the paratroopers under his command...

The current mayor of Moscow is probably the prohibitive favorite, because there is precedent and he has high exposure in the country (maybe the third highest post in Russia).

Singularity posted 05-23-99 11:55 AM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Singularity    
A bottle of Stolichnaya.
Hugo Rune posted 05-23-99 04:52 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Hugo Rune  Click Here to Email Hugo Rune     
One question...

How come Russia's Communist party didn't morph into a Market Economy-based reform socialist/social democratic party like most of the others in the former east bloc? It worked in Hungary, were they ruled sucessfully for a four-year term.

Ronbo posted 05-23-99 05:16 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for Ronbo  Click Here to Email Ronbo     
Hugo,

The reason that Russia's economy was such a shambles is because they never had anything resembling a real economy. Before 1917, the czars ruled with an iron fist, and after the October Revolution the Communist party nationalized what little private property was left. The other nations had some degree of economic freedom prior to the second war war (Czechoslovakia, in particular, with a democratically elected government), and therefore had some basis from which to work. The Russian mafia has not made the task any easier, either. Also, the Communist party still has enormous influence in Russia, and they are heartily resisting implementation of reforms that are badly needed to restructure Russia's demolished economy.

jsorense posted 05-28-99 06:54 PM ET     Click Here to See the Profile for jsorense  Click Here to Email jsorense     
I recieved this news item today from a friend. I am afraid that the facts of this story may be censored in the press.*


MOSCOW--Official reports from the Kremlin Tuesday confirmed that the Society for Creative Anachronism, a group of medieval-wargames hobbyists, seized control of Russia in a bloodless coup over the weekend.

"Weakened by food shortages, political instability and widespread economic chaos, our military's combined forces proved no match for the enemy's rattan-and-duct-tape broadswords and homemade weaponry," said deposed Russian president Boris Yeltsin during a national radio address in which he relinquished rulership to the "Principality Of The Mists," one of several dozen SCA "kingdoms."

"I can't tell you how humiliating this is," he added.

The SCA, founded in 1966 by a group of Berkeley science-fiction and fantasy fans, is a non-profit organization dedicated to fun and learning through such medieval activities as metalwork, calligraphy, lute-playing and brewing. Boasting more than 20,000 dues-paying members in 14 countries, the club is also known for holding elaborately staged mock battles, followed by feasting and merrymaking amid the revelry of troubadours and jesters.

The seizure of over 70% of Russia's land mass marks the first time the SCA has ventured into the arena of international politics.

"I can't believe how easy it was to claim Kiev for the Kingdom Of Ealdormere," said Royal Peer Gawain Falconsfyre, a 44-year-old tech-support assistant from a suburb of Toronto. "It was a piece of cake. Haven't any of these Russians ever heard of a moving-shield-wall offense?"

Falconsfire and an SCA faction armed only with rubber maces successfully captured two Russian tank divisions outside Moscow Saturday when fuel shortages immobilized the armored vehicles.

Due to the disarray of communications within Russia, information regarding the actual invasion is sketchy. It was confirmed, however, that St. Petersburg was taken without a shot being fired late
Saturday morning, after thousands of Russian soldiers deserted their posts, joining approximately 70 SCA knights advancing on the city in hopes of being issued new boots and coats.

The SCA also overtook vast areas at the borders of former Russian republics Ukraine and Belarus simply by trading several sacks of potatoes for enemy guns.

"Forsooth, mine legions of brave warmakers hath conquered the Lands West O' the Urals! Let there be great rejoicing in our noble victory!" exclaimed Cedric, Bard of the House of �thelmearc, 36, hoisting a flagon of ale. "What, ho! Bring on the serving wenches!"

Cedric, known as Harold Freed when among non-SCA members, is credited with capturing two military air bases and a string of missile installations throughout the north Caucasus region along the Georgian border--an area rendered vulnerable by ethnic
infighting, corruption and military anarchy.

SCA leaders, who have called the weekend's campaign "a really good time," were said to be especially pleased with the invasion's early wrap-up, as it left the remainder of the weekend free for social recreation in the form of mead-drinking, archery contests, and the singing of bawdy madrigals.

Even captured Russian soldiers were invited to join in the fun and campfire dancing.
Such "good sportsmanship" has some analysts arguing that the SCA's power base in Russia
may even benefit the troubled land in the long run.

"Though civilian rioting and widespread starvation still rock the major population centers, Russia is actually more stable right now than it has been for the last 18 months," Harvard political science professor F. Horace Gunderson said. "Candle-dipping seminars are
addressing the problems posed by energy shortages, and the booths selling roasted turkey legs represent, in many regions, the first source of food in weeks."

"This could be the best thing to happen to Russia in years," agreed State Department foreign-affairs analyst Howard Plum. "The
sale of jewelry, driftwood art and other medieval handcrafting at concession tables throughout Russia has boosted local economies, and SCA presence has even created new jobs in the custodial and campground-rental fields."

The U.N. security council is drafting a proposal urging SCA forces to remain in Russia, at least until a more viable interim
government can be structured.

"Under the current political system, the Russian people face Mafia domination of the black market and a deteriorating national
infrastructure," U.N. Ambassador Thomas R. Pickering said. "With an elaborately networked consortium of amateur gamers in
charge, however, there will at least be some semblance of order."

Members of SCA nobility, however, say the group has no interest in running Russia for any great length of time, especially with the members' need to prepare for their next major event, this summer's Pennsic War between the East and Middle Kingdoms, to be held in Pennsylvania. Insiders expect the occupying forces to return power to the Russian government "on the honor system" and return to their day jobs by the end of the week.

"We're doing this for fun, not the vulgar acquisition of personal political power," said insurance actuary and Arizona native
Willownook Pendragon, of the Kingdom of Atenveldt. "We're here to celebrate our mutual interest in the ways and customs of
pre-1600 feudal Europe, and to bedeck ourselves in the heraldic regalia of our fictional medieval personas, not to get mixed up in politics."

Pendragon added that "anyone who wants to have a fun time and make new friends" should check out the SCA home page or contact the group's California headquarters directly at its toll-free number for more information on an SCA chapter in their area.

"We're really just friendly folks who welcome outsiders," Pendragon said. "Plus, now is a great time to get involved, because there's lots of super events coming up this summer, and you'll want time to prepare the correct blazon for your heraldry."

*For our Russian friends in these forums this post was meant to be mildly amusing and not an insult to Russia or Russians. :-)

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