Terraforming Your Own Land Annoys Others !

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Author Topic:   Terraforming Your Own Land Annoys Others !

GaryD posted 03-15-99 10:02 AM ET
I think this may be a bug.
I had captured a few cities and afterwards agreed to peace (as too many wars at one time can be draining).
When I started to raise the land around my captured city (to counteract the melting poles) I was asked whether I really wanted to do this as I had a pact (or whatever). Well I didn't want to have my city drown, so yes I did, and sure enough the original owner of the city went to vendetta.
A similar thing happened later with a totally different faction.
mic posted 03-15-99 10:38 AM ET
Like renaming a captured city, I suppose altering the romantic view from that city can also annoy its former rulers.
I suppose you had a Truce, not a Pact? A truce is not really peace, is it?
You could build a pressure dome and do some kelp-farming (did I mention kelp looks beautiful?)
Maybe better erase the faction altogether
Dredd posted 03-15-99 10:43 AM ET
By raising the land you are changing the rainfall pattern of everything to the east, including areas across your border. The AI sees this as a hostile act, and rightly so. Your terraforming could have a disasterous impact on the AI's cities.
Gord McLeod posted 03-15-99 02:40 PM ET

That's no bug, it's environmental warfare via terraforming. As Dredd pointed out, you can radically alter rainfall patterns to your opponents' bases by raising or lowering land, both to the east and west - they're much more likely to get annoyed if they're to the east of you though, as raising your land too much is likely to leave them stuck in a desert.
Darkstar posted 03-15-99 04:00 PM ET
My experience is that its an environmental act of war if it affects an opponents land. You raising the captured city above the pending flood line probably forced an altitude change to an adjoining opponents land square. Haven't had the rainfall thing be a problem yet.
-Darkstar
ViVicdi posted 03-15-99 06:26 PM ET
I have to second DarkStar -- in my experience terraforming is an act of war if and only if it changes the altitude of an opponent's territory.
Peter posted 03-16-99 08:09 AM ET
Nevertheless. Between pact fractions and friendly other there should be a possiblitity to make such without war but by agreement.
I think it's a logic bug.
ViVicdi posted 03-17-99 12:21 AM ET
Agreed -- it should be possible to terraform an ally's territory if the ally agrees to it.
An allied AI should "agree" to being terraformed if it fits the AI's profile for that base (doesn't lower a planned solar site, doesn't landlock the base if it is meant for shipbuilding, etc.)
I wouldn't mind the AI asking me if it was ok to terraform my territory, for that matter.
TheClockKing posted 03-17-99 12:54 AM ET
Playing as UoP with freemarket I ally with Morgan and build him some boreholes and he doesn't seem to mind, he has also developed some of my undeveloped land before too.
Darkstar posted 03-17-99 03:25 AM ET
Its altitude changing that the AI seems to get upset about. I've had plenty of Ally Formers run roads up to my cities. Makes it convenient for war usage later.
-Darkstar
GaryD posted 03-22-99 06:43 AM ET
Well, well. You start a thread, go away on a course for four days, and when you get back the inbox is brimming .
Thanks for the advice.
Mic, I don�t recall, I guess you're right, it was probably a truce. These terms are not second nature to me yet as I am only on my third game (and my memory is like a � you know, that thing with holes in�). Having said that the second incident must have been a pact as Lal had sworn to serve me previously. The situation then was slightly different though, as my own council wouldn't let me raise the land, rather than Lal getting irate.
Dredd & Gord, thanks. That is probably it. (Yang was to the east (right).) But a request to desist might have been a better option. Anyway I don�t think they were likely to end up in a dessert , I'd have thought he'd be pleased not to have his cities drown (in fact most survived by the "skin of their teeth").
Darkstar, possibly, but as I was raising land to the west of the city, and he was to the east, it may not have had an effect. How many squares would be affected ?
VIVicdi & Peter, Agreed, In this case it wasn't so much an act of war, more a gesture of friendship !
TheClockKing & Darkstar, yes developing land with a pact seems ok, altitude changes excepted. I am presently building tubes over everyone else's land to connect my vast empire and getting rid of fungus everywhere, as a sort of sub aim for my own amusement.
Dick Knisely posted 03-22-99 12:53 PM ET
Direction doesn't matter -- if your terraform would alter his territory in any way then you'll get told that it would break the truce or treaty or pact.
On the one hand I wish it was something that you could do with permission and might well actually help the other faction. But on the other hand it would be pretty hard to have the AI figure out just what the implications might be of allowing you to do it. Human already has so many advantages over the AI that I can understand not giving us this ability. Minor annoyance, I can live with it as it is.
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Author	Topic: Terraforming Your Own Land Annoys Others !
GaryD	posted 03-15-99 10:02 AM ET I think this may be a bug. I had captured a few cities and afterwards agreed to peace (as too many wars at one time can be draining). When I started to raise the land around my captured city (to counteract the melting poles) I was asked whether I really wanted to do this as I had a pact (or whatever). Well I didn't want to have my city drown, so yes I did, and sure enough the original owner of the city went to vendetta. A similar thing happened later with a totally different faction.
mic	posted 03-15-99 10:38 AM ET Like renaming a captured city, I suppose altering the romantic view from that city can also annoy its former rulers. I suppose you had a Truce, not a Pact? A truce is not really peace, is it? You could build a pressure dome and do some kelp-farming (did I mention kelp looks beautiful?) Maybe better erase the faction altogether
Dredd	posted 03-15-99 10:43 AM ET By raising the land you are changing the rainfall pattern of everything to the east, including areas across your border. The AI sees this as a hostile act, and rightly so. Your terraforming could have a disasterous impact on the AI's cities.
Gord McLeod	posted 03-15-99 02:40 PM ET That's no bug, it's environmental warfare via terraforming. As Dredd pointed out, you can radically alter rainfall patterns to your opponents' bases by raising or lowering land, both to the east and west - they're much more likely to get annoyed if they're to the east of you though, as raising your land too much is likely to leave them stuck in a desert.
Darkstar	posted 03-15-99 04:00 PM ET My experience is that its an environmental act of war if it affects an opponents land. You raising the captured city above the pending flood line probably forced an altitude change to an adjoining opponents land square. Haven't had the rainfall thing be a problem yet. -Darkstar
ViVicdi	posted 03-15-99 06:26 PM ET I have to second DarkStar -- in my experience terraforming is an act of war if and only if it changes the altitude of an opponent's territory.
Peter	posted 03-16-99 08:09 AM ET Nevertheless. Between pact fractions and friendly other there should be a possiblitity to make such without war but by agreement. I think it's a logic bug.
ViVicdi	posted 03-17-99 12:21 AM ET Agreed -- it should be possible to terraform an ally's territory if the ally agrees to it. An allied AI should "agree" to being terraformed if it fits the AI's profile for that base (doesn't lower a planned solar site, doesn't landlock the base if it is meant for shipbuilding, etc.) I wouldn't mind the AI asking me if it was ok to terraform my territory, for that matter.
TheClockKing	posted 03-17-99 12:54 AM ET Playing as UoP with freemarket I ally with Morgan and build him some boreholes and he doesn't seem to mind, he has also developed some of my undeveloped land before too.
Darkstar	posted 03-17-99 03:25 AM ET Its altitude changing that the AI seems to get upset about. I've had plenty of Ally Formers run roads up to my cities. Makes it convenient for war usage later. -Darkstar
GaryD	posted 03-22-99 06:43 AM ET Well, well. You start a thread, go away on a course for four days, and when you get back the inbox is brimming . Thanks for the advice. Mic, I don�t recall, I guess you're right, it was probably a truce. These terms are not second nature to me yet as I am only on my third game (and my memory is like a � you know, that thing with holes in�). Having said that the second incident must have been a pact as Lal had sworn to serve me previously. The situation then was slightly different though, as my own council wouldn't let me raise the land, rather than Lal getting irate. Dredd & Gord, thanks. That is probably it. (Yang was to the east (right).) But a request to desist might have been a better option. Anyway I don�t think they were likely to end up in a dessert , I'd have thought he'd be pleased not to have his cities drown (in fact most survived by the "skin of their teeth"). Darkstar, possibly, but as I was raising land to the west of the city, and he was to the east, it may not have had an effect. How many squares would be affected ? VIVicdi & Peter, Agreed, In this case it wasn't so much an act of war, more a gesture of friendship ! TheClockKing & Darkstar, yes developing land with a pact seems ok, altitude changes excepted. I am presently building tubes over everyone else's land to connect my vast empire and getting rid of fungus everywhere, as a sort of sub aim for my own amusement.
Dick Knisely	posted 03-22-99 12:53 PM ET Direction doesn't matter -- if your terraform would alter his territory in any way then you'll get told that it would break the truce or treaty or pact. On the one hand I wish it was something that you could do with permission and might well actually help the other faction. But on the other hand it would be pretty hard to have the AI figure out just what the implications might be of allowing you to do it. Human already has so many advantages over the AI that I can understand not giving us this ability. Minor annoyance, I can live with it as it is.