Author Topic: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d  (Read 4121 times)

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Offline Dio

Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2014, 12:21:02 AM »
Would it be doable, with a reasonable amount of work, to make it so that the DRONE faction rule causes each base to start with a extra drone? This change would make the effect of the DRONE rule symmetrical to the TALENT faction rule. Does anyone know where the code that controls these effects is located?

Offline gwillybj

Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2014, 01:11:40 AM »
put TALENT, -1 in the faction's socio line and you'll get a drone
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Offline Yitzi

Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2014, 03:32:20 AM »
Would it be doable, with a reasonable amount of work, to make it so that the DRONE faction rule causes each base to start with a extra drone? This change would make the effect of the DRONE rule symmetrical to the TALENT faction rule.

No it wouldn't; the DRONE rule is currently symmetrical to the TALENT rule; unless it's 0, "DRONE, X" gives 1 drone per X citizens, and similarly for TALENT.

You're thinking of SOCIAL, +TALENT, which is something else, and what you're looking for is then SOCIAL, -TALENT (though both forms will be affected by social engineering effects on TALENT).

Quote
Does anyone know where the code that controls these effects is located?

4EA540 is where the drone and talent calculations are located.

It's actually a fairly good procedure to analyze, if you'd like to improve your skills in that regard (though if so you'll want to use the version from Kyrub's patch, as my changes have made it somewhat more complicated and less neat in order to fit in the extra features.)

Offline Dio

Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2014, 04:15:30 AM »
Would it be doable, with a reasonable amount of work, to make it so that the DRONE faction rule causes each base to start with a extra drone? This change would make the effect of the DRONE rule symmetrical to the TALENT faction rule.

No it wouldn't; the DRONE rule is currently symmetrical to the TALENT rule; unless it's 0, "DRONE, X" gives 1 drone per X citizens, and similarly for TALENT.

You're thinking of SOCIAL, +TALENT, which is something else, and what you're looking for is then SOCIAL, -TALENT (though both forms will be affected by social engineering effects on TALENT).

Quote
Does anyone know where the code that controls these effects is located?

4EA540 is where the drone and talent calculations are located.

It's actually a fairly good procedure to analyze, if you'd like to improve your skills in that regard (though if so you'll want to use the version from Kyrub's patch, as my changes have made it somewhat more complicated and less neat in order to fit in the extra features.)

I am attempting to explain that the non-social TALENT bonus (TALENT, #Population) gives a extra talent at each base on top of the additional talent for every number of population while the non-social DRONE penalty (DRONE, #Population) does not give a extra drone at each base on top of the additional drone for every number of population. If you take a look at Lal's bases you will notice that at size 1 they have a talent while Zakharov's bases at size 1 only have a worker. Attached below are screenshots illustrating this.

Thank you for telling me the address that controls talent and drone calculations. I have had some sucess in identifying the calculations for specific Postive and Negative Social Economy, Probe, Efficency, Police, and Morale effects.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2014, 05:04:46 AM by Dio »

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Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2014, 04:43:49 AM »
You guys both know I like you and think the world of you, right?  Bluntly contradicting each other is rude.  No need to edit or make a big deal - just please try a little harder to be nice in the future. ;b;

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Offline Yitzi

Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d
« Reply #20 on: April 20, 2014, 12:48:06 PM »
I am attempting to explain that the non-social TALENT bonus (TALENT, #Population) gives a extra talent at each base on top of the additional talent for every number of population while the non-social DRONE penalty (DRONE, #Population) does not give a extra drone at each base on top of the additional drone for every number of population. If you take a look at Lal's bases you will notice that at size 1 they have a talent while Zakharov's bases at size 1 only have a worker. Attached below are screenshots illustrating this.

Ah, I misunderstood you.  What you're seeing isn't exactly an extra talent (at 4 population, Lal has only 1 talent, not 2), but rather that Lal's talents are rounded up while Zak's drones are rounded down.  And you're right that that is asymmetric; changing it would indeed be done at 4EA540.

Quote
Thank you for telling me the address that controls talent and drone calculations. I have had some sucess in identifying the calculations for specific Postive and Negative Social Economy, Probe, Efficency, Police, and Morale effects.

Actually, that gets a bit tricky, as the calculations are done not at one location but rather each type of calculations (square energy values, drones/talents, base energy, etc.) has its own procedure affected by those variables, so most social engineering properties (which have multiple effects) will show up in multiple places.

Though I'd like to know what address you found MORALE effects at.  Thanks.

You guys both know I like you and think the world of you, right?  Bluntly contradicting each other is rude.

Unfortunately, there often isn't a good way to correct each others' mistakes without bluntly contradicting...and the willingness to correct and accept correction is a large part of what makes us able to do advanced technical stuff.

Offline Dio

Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d
« Reply #21 on: April 20, 2014, 03:24:02 PM »
I believe the adding and subtracting of morale levels for non probe team units is controlled at 005C0F9F.  Inside the procedure I have also identified a effect that is related to the Probe Social Catergory at address 005C0EAC. It might be the Probe Team morale bonus that comes from having a postive value in the Probe Social Catergory. Lastly, I am certain the memory address 0096CC68 is related to social morale effects because it also appears in the procedure that controls which morale level appears when you are viewing the unit selection window.

Offline Nexii

Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2014, 03:40:08 PM »
I can see the point, Talent/X rounds up whereas Drone/X rounds down.  But it's better modding wise if Drone/X rounds down.  You can use -TALENT for the first worker to be a drone. (or +1 drone on lower difficulties)

If anything I'd argue that perhaps Talent/X should also round down also instead of rounding up.  Then Lal would need TALENT, 4, SOCIAL, +TALENT.  He's the only default faction that gets Talents anyways so this wouldn't really change much.  You can make Talent/X effectively round down by doing something like TALENT, 4, SOCIAL, -TALENT for Lal.  This isn't quite analogous though due to the rounding up.  The first Talent then appears at size 5 and not 4.  But it's close and perhaps a lot less work than modding code?

Offline Nexii

Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2014, 04:00:21 PM »
For example you'd want DRONE, 4, SOCIAL, -TALENT to make University's first citizen a drone.  I just noted this isn't quite equivalent as you would get the second penalty drone at size 4 instead of size 5 as you would intend.  Still I think it's easier to keep Drone/X rounding down.  It's supposed to be an extra drone once you hit X population, not +1 starting drone. 

Offline Yitzi

Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d
« Reply #24 on: April 20, 2014, 05:03:13 PM »
I can see the point, Talent/X rounds up whereas Drone/X rounds down.  But it's better modding wise if Drone/X rounds down.  You can use -TALENT for the first worker to be a drone. (or +1 drone on lower difficulties)

If anything I'd argue that perhaps Talent/X should also round down also instead of rounding up.  Then Lal would need TALENT, 4, SOCIAL, +TALENT.  He's the only default faction that gets Talents anyways so this wouldn't really change much.  You can make Talent/X effectively round down by doing something like TALENT, 4, SOCIAL, -TALENT for Lal.  This isn't quite analogous though due to the rounding up.  The first Talent then appears at size 5 and not 4.  But it's close and perhaps a lot less work than modding code?

The code modding wouldn't be that bad; if there's substantial popular support for the option to make Lal's talents round down, I could do it.

Though that would weaken Lal substantially in the early game on Transcend.

Offline Nexii

Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d
« Reply #25 on: April 20, 2014, 06:38:42 PM »
Yea, I think rounding down Talents intuitively makes more sense.  The way it's worded implies rounding down to me:
^Extra TALENT for every four citizens: {Attracts intellectual elite}

The wording is the same as University's which is where I think all the confusion comes from:
^Extra DRONE for every four citizens {(lack of ethics)}

If they had specified rounded up/down I could see the argument the other way. 

I do agree for balance reasons it's a good point that Lal might need an offsetting bonus like NODRONE, 1 or ROBUST, POLICE, or perhaps removing his -EFFIC.  Personally I think he might be the strongest default faction on Transcend anyways (at least in my modded SE set) and wouldn't necessarily need a buff.  Being able to run +2 ECON early is a big boon.  He gets good tech without the military downsides of Morgan and Gaia.  Unlike University he can run Fund in a hard war.  And unless you're really getting crushed you'll be eligible for governor votes.  More often than not Lal ends up governor which is a massive catchup (commerce) & intel (infiltrator) mechanic. 

Rounding down talents would be more useful for those who are making new factions, I think. 

Offline Yitzi

Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d
« Reply #26 on: April 20, 2014, 06:45:23 PM »
Yea, I think rounding down Talents intuitively makes more sense.  The way it's worded implies rounding down to me:
^Extra TALENT for every four citizens: {Attracts intellectual elite}

The wording is the same as University's which is where I think all the confusion comes from:
^Extra DRONE for every four citizens {(lack of ethics)}

If they had specified rounded up/down I could see the argument the other way. 

I do agree for balance reasons it's a good point that Lal might need an offsetting bonus like NODRONE, 1 or ROBUST, POLICE, or perhaps removing his -EFFIC.  Personally I think he might be the strongest default faction on Transcend anyways (at least in my modded SE set) and wouldn't necessarily need a buff.  Being able to run +2 ECON early is a big boon.  He gets good tech without the military downsides of Morgan and Gaia.  Unlike University he can run Fund in a hard war.  And unless you're really getting crushed you'll be eligible for governor votes.  More often than not Lal ends up governor which is a massive catchup (commerce) & intel (infiltrator) mechanic. 

Rounding down talents would be more useful for those who are making new factions, I think.

Make a poll, and see what other people think; if several people agree with you, I can include it in a future patch (probably the next one that isn't mostly bugfixes).

Offline Nexii

Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2014, 06:51:51 PM »
I'll let Dio weigh in first :)

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Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2014, 06:55:03 PM »
;b; Dio is worth listening to.

Offline Dio

Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 2.5d
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2014, 07:06:39 PM »
In other words, this was not an attempt by the developers to combine the postive and negative social TALENT effects into the TALENT, Population X and DRONE, Population X faction rules?

 

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