Author Topic: Changes to the Social Engineering models  (Read 12962 times)

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Offline tnevolin

Re: Changes to the Social Engineering models
« Reply #150 on: February 20, 2017, 01:43:05 PM »
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  • You are right. I didn't mean to compare different steps on economy scale. I was just pointing out that economy has the most not linear scale amongh other effects.

    Offline Nexii

    Re: Changes to the Social Engineering models
    « Reply #151 on: March 08, 2017, 05:17:08 AM »
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  • Yea agree, economy is incredibly powerful with pacts/global trade pact.  It also means less free energy for pact mates.

    I'm trying out this now after a long SMAC break. 

    So overall:
    Democratic/FM/Planned weakened
    Green buffed a little
    Knowledge about the same
    Future SEs made stronger

    Frontier,        None,
    Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,+++PROBE,--GROWTH
    Democratic,      EthCalc, +EFFIC,++GROWTH,+TALENT,-----POLICE
    Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++MORALE,++SUPPORT,-----RESEARCH
    Simple,          None,    None
    Free Market,     IndEcon, +++ECONOMY,---PLANET,--SUPPORT
    Planned,         PlaNets, ++INDUSTRY,--EFFIC,---ECONOMY
    Green,           CentEmp, +++PLANET,++EFFIC,+TALENT,---INDUSTRY
    Survival,        None,    None
    Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,+SUPPORT,-EFFIC
    Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH,--PROBE
    Wealth,          IndAuto, +TALENT,++GROWTH,--MORALE
    None,            None,    None
    Cybernetic,      DigSent, +++RESEARCH,+EFFIC,-GROWTH
    Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++GROWTH,++ECONOMY,++TALENT,--MORALE
    Thought Control, WillPow, +POLICE,+++INDUSTRY,-SUPPORT,-EFFIC

    The economy SEs are kind of extreme.  -3 IND may still leave Green underpowered, even with modded ecodamages and 1/3/0 Forests.  Have to play more and try it out.  I don't feel that Fundamentalism was underpowered even with the huge negative research.  Elite troops are so deadly and underestimated...Spartans/Believers are pretty terrifying with Fundamentalism

    Offline Nexii

    Re: Changes to the Social Engineering models
    « Reply #152 on: April 30, 2017, 02:02:16 AM »
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  • Bunch of small tweaks to my SE set.  Been playing with PLANET SE affecting defense for PSI not just offense.  It made Green much stronger so it needed a bit of a nerf.  Knowledge picked up +1 EFFIC as it was probably a little weak for builder compared to Wealth.  Small boost to Planned at the cost of Power.  Lastly Free Market needed a bit of a boost, so I put more -SUP on Thought Control.

    Frontier,        None,
    Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE,+++PROBE,--GROWTH
    Democratic,      EthCalc, +EFFIC,++GROWTH,+TALENT,-----POLICE
    Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++MORALE,++SUPPORT,-----RESEARCH
    Simple,          None,    None
    Free Market,     IndEcon, +++ECONOMY,---PLANET,-SUPPORT
    Planned,         PlaNets, ++INDUSTRY,-EFFIC,---ECONOMY
    Green,           CentEmp, +++PLANET,+EFFIC,+TALENT,---INDUSTRY
    Survival,        None,    None
    Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,+SUPPORT,--EFFIC
    Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH,+EFFIC,--PROBE
    Wealth,          IndAuto, +TALENT,++GROWTH,--MORALE
    None,            None,    None
    Cybernetic,      DigSent, +++RESEARCH,+EFFIC,-GROWTH
    Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++GROWTH,++ECONOMY,++TALENT,--MORALE
    Thought Control, WillPow, +POLICE,+++INDUSTRY,--SUPPORT,-EFFIC


    Offline Quadhelix

    Re: Changes to the Social Engineering models
    « Reply #153 on: May 13, 2017, 02:55:06 PM »
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  • I've been kicking around a couple ideas in the back of my head, and I was hoping to get feedback from more experienced players and modders to see if these ideas have any merit -- although it seems that Nexii and a few others already had similar ideas, tested them, and found they didn't work:
    • Move Democratic Politics's +2 Growth to Fundamentalist Politics (replacing either the +1 Morale or the +2 Probe) and find another bonus for Democratic Politics (+1 Research?).
    • Move the +2 Probe from Fundamentalist Politics to Police State Politics (replacing the +2 Support).
    • Give Planned Economics +2 Support (replacing either the +2 Growth or the +1 Industry).

    (click to show/hide)

    Like I said, a lot of this is, I think, retreading well-worn ground. I think the main difference is that the final result here is much closer to the original SE choices because I'm making the absolute minimum number of changes to execute my ideas -- moving the Growth bonus from Demo to Fundy forces moving the Probe bonus from Fundy to PS, which forces moving the Support bonus from PS to Planned, which may force moving the Growth bonus from Planned to FM.
    "[T]here is always a well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong." H.L. Mencken

    Offline Nexii

    Re: Changes to the Social Engineering models
    « Reply #154 on: May 13, 2017, 10:25:03 PM »
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  • So it'd be
    Police State +2 PROBE +2 POLICE -2 EFFIC
    Democracy +2 EFFIC, +? -2 SUPPORT
    Fundamentalism +2 GROWTH +1 MORALE -2 RESEARCH

    Free Market +2 ECON +2 GROWTH -3 PLANET -5 POLICE
    Planned +2 SUPPORT +1 INDUSTRY -2 EFFIC
    Rest same

    The issue I had with default EFFIC penalties is that PS/Planned is never viable (-4 EFFIC).  I suppose one can cut PS to -1 EFFIC if you're going for a less extreme SE set.  What I found was that +2 PROBE isn't that powerful.  +3 PROBE is very useful though (conversion immune), and +3 POLICE is potentially too powerful for Yang if -2 EFFIC remains the downside.  PS would still be okay at +2 POLICE +2 PROBE -1 EFFIC for Spartans, and any faction with Ascetic Virtues.

    Democracy would need a little more boost I agree...probably +TALENT or +RESEARCH.  +RESEARCH probably sets it more apart from Fundamentalism.  Contrasting choices tend to be more compelling.  Demo/Planned feels a bit tepid with net +1 INDUSTRY +1 RESEARCH but it's a kind of safe/socialist government so perhaps fitting :P.  I think Democracy might need +2 RESEARCH even to be compelling to take over Fundamentalism in that set.  +2 GROWTH is really good and it's why in the default SE set you'd almost always take Democracy.

    Offline Nexii

    Re: Changes to the Social Engineering models
    « Reply #155 on: November 12, 2017, 09:12:49 PM »
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  • Pursuant to the other SE thread, trying out this set.  Will see how the AI fares with no downsides.  The upsides are a little tempered.

    Frontier,        None,
    Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++PROBE
    Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC,  +INDUSTRY
    Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++GROWTH, +MORALE
    Simple,          None,
    Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY
    Planned,         PlaNets, ++INDUSTRY
    Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC
    Survival,        None,
    Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,  ++SUPPORT
    Knowledge,       Cyber,   ++RESEARCH, +PLANET
    Wealth,          IndAuto, ++GROWTH, +ECONOMY
    None,            None,
    AI Controlled,      DigSent, ++PROBE,  ++INDUSTRY, ++POLICE
    Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++RESEARCH, ++ECONOMY, ++EFFIC
    Bioengineered,   HomoSup, ++GROWTH, ++MORALE,  ++PLANET



    Offline Nexii

    Re: Changes to the Social Engineering models
    « Reply #156 on: November 15, 2017, 03:26:03 PM »
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  • Didn't change much, other than Knowledge to +++RESEARCH, +PLANET

    Overall found it surprisingly balanced with a lot of options.  If you make native life more threatening and nerf advanced terraforming an SE buff is a good way to offset.

    Univ and CyCon take a big hit with Fund aversion - CyCon can't boom until very late game.  But arguably they were the #1/#2 factions.
    Drones might remain OP or even more being able to get +5 IND early.  Most other factions can get +3 IND with better research though.
    Hive goes from one of the best to average...though they can get +3 IND without Democracy
    Believers might be a bit weak.  I think their mid and late game is strong, only they can get +3 SUP without the SP.  And they can run Fund/FM/Wealth which should be the strongest boom combo.

    Offline Nexii

    Re: Changes to the Social Engineering models
    « Reply #157 on: November 15, 2017, 10:02:10 PM »
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  • #;AI Controlled
    #HELPSOC31
    In the far future, citizens may turn many of the tasks of governing
    society over to artificially intelligent computers, increasing productivity.
    AI-controlled robots perform all industrial and service level tasks,
    leaving humans to the realms of science and art.  Advanced AI algorithms
    predict crime and civil disobedience, preventing domestic issues before they occur.

    --
    To me the bonuses applied to Cybernetic never really made sense.  I see the computer/machine future SE more like 'Minority Report' or maybe even dystopia as a contrast to Eudaimonic.  I think full on AI control of everything might not make much sense in the context of SMAC.  Otherwise we'd have machine life ascending and not humans.  As well it would sort of supersede the top tier of Politics.  That being said Fund+AI Controlled might be interesting...would we then worship computers?  And how about PS/Eudaimonic...a strict society with high expectations?
    « Last Edit: November 15, 2017, 10:17:11 PM by Nexii »

    Offline Nexii

    Re: Changes to the Social Engineering models
    « Reply #158 on: November 20, 2017, 06:49:25 PM »
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  • Frontier,        None,
    Police State,    DocLoy,  ++POLICE, ++PROBE
    Democratic,      EthCalc, ++EFFIC,  +INDUSTRY
    Fundamentalist,  Brain,   ++GROWTH, +MORALE
    Simple,          None,
    Free Market,     IndEcon, ++ECONOMY
    Planned,         PlaNets, ++INDUSTRY
    Green,           CentEmp, ++PLANET,  ++EFFIC
    Survival,        None,
    Power,           MilAlg,  ++MORALE,  ++SUPPORT
    Knowledge,       Cyber,   +++RESEARCH, +PLANET
    Wealth,          IndAuto, ++GROWTH, +ECONOMY
    None,            None,
    AI Controlled,      DigSent, ++PROBE,  ++INDUSTRY, ++POLICE, ++SUPPORT
    Eudaimonic,      Eudaim,  ++RESEARCH, ++ECONOMY, ++EFFIC
    Bioengineered,   HomoSup, ++GROWTH, ++MORALE,  ++PLANET

    Gave AI Controlled ++SUPPORT as there wasn't really a way to hit +3 SUPPORT SE.  Seemed most fitting there as it was the weakest and the automation would make supporting armies/formers easier. 

    Even with all those bonuses the AI doesn't really like AI Controlled as a choice.  But I think it's decent, if you are going for a late-game horizontal expansion w/satellites.

     

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