Author Topic: Well, ok, free is hard to beat.  (Read 451 times)

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Offline Unorthodox

Well, ok, free is hard to beat.
« on: May 25, 2020, 01:14:59 PM »
Downloaded...

Yeah...really rather hating the combat mechanics.  (barely got to classic) is there something I'm missing or did they just purposely make this a builder's wet dream?  Why bother defending cities when a slew of warriors is gonna need an eternity to take an undefended city?  Pretty much all of combat seems designed to take unneeded numbers of turns.   

Don't get me wrong, the free settlers and builders China was supplying me were NICE, but it looked all but impossible to take their capital in ancient (prohibitively expensive).  And I can't destroy them building the defensive districts while it's in production? 

(of COURSE I was playing Aztec going religion/military)

Confused on religion because I don't fully grasp what most the bonuses actually mean.   Not loving the builder charges but overall indifferent on it.  Not loving the caravans build road mechanic.

Offline Geo

Re: Well, ok, free is hard to beat.
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2020, 01:34:41 PM »
What's actually free? The base game only, or are there expansions/DLC's included?

Offline Unorthodox


Offline Geo

Re: Well, ok, free is hard to beat.
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2020, 07:43:45 PM »
Cheers.
Posted to a friend of mine. :D

Offline Unorthodox

Re: Well, ok, free is hard to beat.
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2020, 04:11:49 PM »
2nd game I've reached the point of when for victory not if. 

So...even when I DO take an enemy city, it won't grow until they either agree to cede it to my control or I wipe them out.

Aztec Warriors seem viable through medieval, which is nice for the free workers, paired with a battering ram and later supported by warrior monks and catapults, domination/military/whatever is inevitable.

Free workers vs city states, too. 

AI appears particularly bad at sending settlers unprotected while at war.  Or perhaps their military units get wounded and abandon the settler without the settler stopping it's path. 

Offline Geo

Re: Well, ok, free is hard to beat.
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2020, 06:09:24 PM »
2nd game I've reached the point of when for victory not if. 

So...even when I DO take an enemy city, it won't grow until they either agree to cede it to my control or I wipe them out.

Can't remember if it was like you describe in the base game, but in the Gathering Storm expansion a conquered city goes through a phase of rebellion if you annex it. And even if you let the city manage its own affairs (you not being able to decide on production and stuff), it takes a couple turns (1 turn/pop) before it starts producing.

Offline Unorthodox

Re: Well, ok, free is hard to beat.
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2020, 05:46:59 PM »
Played a bit longer switching to attempting a religious victory just to see further into the trees. 

As expected (and generally across all civ games, but amplified now), I get the distinct impression come industrial that I've really fubarred the long term planning of everything. 
Tech tree I meander through not really knowing what to focus on.
I don't understand the districts much at all, and most the prime locations for industrial districts I'd used up for either the financial or religious ones, mostly coming from Civ IV, not a shock. 
Housing isn't so much confusing as I'm not precisely sure how to min/max it. 
Wonders...seem less than wonderful to be honest.  Outside a few, they seem real situational. 
Great scientists provide random eureka moments...I preferred the old system on them.
Great Generals completely underwhelming. 
Great Relics are far too random IMO.  You either get lucky in a goody hut or have to (randomly?) upgrade an apostle to a martyr and then get it killed?  (in that case does the item just magically appear in your lands or do you need to go claim it?)
I don't fully understand the religious pressure mechanic. 
Trade routes...it's confusing why I randomly sometimes have to reassign trade routes.  Like the caravan just pops up in the capital and asks for a new trade route, I scroll through the list pick the best one and it says 'repeat'.  Yes.  REPEAT DAMN YOU, why is this a question?  Do I take it these trade routes are then merely out and back with a static number of resources rather than a resource per turn once the route is established?    I'd assumed the latter (oh, it'll take 20 turns to establish this route, but hten you get xyz per turn, vs it's take 20 turns to get there and back but then you get xyz) 

Offline Unorthodox

Re: Well, ok, free is hard to beat.
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2020, 05:56:06 PM »
It looks like the platinum edition is 40 on Epic, but just a few bucks more on Steam right now. 

It's been fun enough I'd consider everything at that price, but haven't done the halloween budget yet, so got to verify I can fit that in. 

Offline Geo

Re: Well, ok, free is hard to beat.
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2020, 06:57:31 PM »
As expected (and generally across all civ games, but amplified now), I get the distinct impression come industrial that I've really fubarred the long term planning of everything.

Depends a bit on the civ you choose, but its indeed easy to cut yourself short in the long term, yes. Often my heavy production/research/commerce cities are out of room for the late-era districts.

Tech tree I meander through not really knowing what to focus on.

I try to look ahead a bit and get the boosts of both social and research stuff before actually finishing them.

Great Generals completely underwhelming.

You did see they (and Great Admirals as well) have a passive effect too? Most of the time its a movement boost, which might be handy in time of war.
 
Great Relics are far too random IMO.  You either get lucky in a goody hut or have to (randomly?) upgrade an apostle to a martyr and then get it killed?  (in that case does the item just magically appear in your lands or do you need to go claim it?)

Not something I really understand as well (besides the apostle martyr promotion). If you earned one in whatever way, it appears 'magically' in the appropriate district building or wonder slot. And I think that if you already have an apostle with the martyr promo, and keep it around, the promo is kinda locked until you have taken all the other possible promo's with other apostles. There is this one religion upgrade (forgot if it comes from religion choices or finishing a wonder) that grants the martyr promo to all your apostles.

I don't fully understand the religious pressure mechanic. 

Neither do I, but the more converted cities of another religion that are near, the more you're in trouble.
A trick I often use is do apostle-to-apostle combat (if my apostles are stronger at least), the killed apostle causes -250 influence of the religion it represents in nearby cities. And +250 influence for the winning apostle. Works as a charm combined with a Guru to heal your apostle(s) before going into 'combat' again.

Trade routes...it's confusing why I randomly sometimes have to reassign trade routes.  Like the caravan just pops up in the capital and asks for a new trade route, I scroll through the list pick the best one and it says 'repeat'.  Yes.  REPEAT DAMN YOU, why is this a question?  Do I take it these trade routes are then merely out and back with a static number of resources rather than a resource per turn once the route is established?    I'd assumed the latter (oh, it'll take 20 turns to establish this route, but hten you get xyz per turn, vs it's take 20 turns to get there and back but then you get xyz)

In Gathering Storm, you pick the route, click 'ok', and its done.

Offline Unorthodox

Re: Well, ok, free is hard to beat.
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2020, 06:57:22 PM »
After several more games and one ongoing multiplayer game with my son and his friends (all civ V fans), this just isn't for me, at least as vanilla. 

Single player, Aztecs actually get EASIER with higher difficulty as the AI has more units for you to turn into free workers.  I tried some other civs as well for a more boring (builder) look at things, and saw a more traditional curve of starting behind the AI and clawing your way to the top.  The AI seems particularly dense when it comes to combat however.  Only once did I see an AI actually field an army which they attempted to 'surprise attack' with, as if it wasn't blatantly obvious that mass of troops wasnt just wandering around.  Curious, I watched them march from one end of my empire to an undefended former city state on the far side before they declared war.  I netted free workers from both those troops and the new ones from the city state that was liberated as a result. 

The multiplayer game...I started next to 4 city states which have provided me with a sizeable lead the others aren't quite noticing yet as it doesn't really show on the scores.  My neighbor has been building me wonders and trying to turtle with walls and archers.  I like free wonders. 


I think there's a good game in here with the right mods and settings, I'm just not sure I'm willing to take the time to find it. 

I'd REALLY like to see an Alpha Centauri mod/expansion off this design.  The way different civs manage to BE different, and the civics cards would really work well there.   

Offline Geo

Re: Well, ok, free is hard to beat.
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2020, 08:12:00 PM »
Again, been awhile since I played vanilla.
But in the Gathering Storm expansion, with the map comin' to live so to speak due to volcano's, storms, and global warming one needs to look out where your units and districts are because those are damaging when passing by or erupting.

Regarding AI military tactics, probably still the same as in your game. I had it a AI civ declared war on a city state I was the Suzerain of at the other end of the map. I reacted by levying and upgrading its units for the defense (costed me a heavy amount, and upgrading costs for levied units appear to be twice those of your own). With a bit of juggling I broke this assault, and rarely saw another military unit coming for more. Even more to the point, it didn't really try to kill my religious units converting its cities to my religion, only lost a Guru on this.

Some of the Civ AI's do seem to know their business. I had Eleanor of Aquitania taking a good lead in Cultural victory in that game as France.
But luckily I converted all civs to my religion before it became a problem. ;miriam;

Offline Unorthodox

Re: Well, ok, free is hard to beat.
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2020, 03:54:53 AM »
Again, been awhile since I played vanilla.
But in the Gathering Storm expansion, with the map comin' to live so to speak due to volcano's, storms, and global warming one needs to look out where your units and districts are because those are damaging when passing by or erupting.

I've always hated RNG disasters.  You honestly couldn't pick a worse sales pitch for me. 

Now that you mention it, I don't think the AI has ever attacked one of my religious units. 

It does seem to be fairly adept at the economic and cultural side of things, were I more a builder focused person that might be interesting. 

Offline Geo

Re: Well, ok, free is hard to beat.
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2020, 10:01:02 AM »
But... SMACX had similar catastrophies happen on the map?
Solar flares, Volcanoes rising, earth quakes, tidal waves,...

Offline Unorthodox

Re: Well, ok, free is hard to beat.
« Reply #13 on: June 07, 2020, 04:36:06 PM »
I think I played X once for a demo game...


Offline Dewbacca

Re: Well, ok, free is hard to beat.
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2020, 07:05:41 PM »
I have been lost in this game since it was premiered for free. I'm not quite sold on it, but I see amazing potential and admire several aspects of the game so far.

Early on I started digging into the files and modding some things. Costs are way too high, and only grow as you develop multiples of each unit/ district. Almost impossible to build an empire with the scaling cost of settlers.

Builders immediately got charges added to the base 3, going up to 9 charges before I felt like I was getting my money's worth out of them.

Great Generals/ Admirals are indeed a waste of time, but can be "retired" for perks worth having.

Conquering cities turns out to be a lot easier once you understand the difference between "ranged" units and "bombard" units. "Cannon" is a ranged unit and works well against other units, but is weak against cities. The "Bombard" unit works well enough, just a slow drag thru a rainforest with no roads.
Incidentally, ALL naval units with range function as also having the bombard ability. So using the proper units to siege cities is crucial.

Religious pressure is a new concept to me as well, but it is kinda interesting. Converting a single citizen in a city requires several "points" of religious pressure. Missionaries and apostles hit the city with several hundred religious points with a single discharge. But other sources of conversion are a trickle. Trade routes from a religious city will often apply 1 point of pressure each turn, and each city of a religion within a certain distance will also send 1 point per turn. So several cities of a single religion can turn a citizen over a longer period of time, given enough time, convert the city (half or more following new religion).

Overall I find the game beautiful to look at, some interest as a complex historical simulation, and am enjoying playing with player made mods and tweaking a few variables on my own.

No way I am paying for it though. The control over the game by Epic turns me off big time. I don't even have an .exe... I have to use Epic's launcher to start the game. DLC's are massively over priced and are only a few .png's better than player made races.

I give it 3 stars off the shelf and a fourth star for modding flexibility. It's no SMAC, but a worthy child of the Civ family.
So tell me again, where are we going, and why are we in a handbasket?

 

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