Author Topic: Changes to the Social Engineering models  (Read 26027 times)

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Online Buster's Uncle

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Re: Changes to the Social Engineering models
« Reply #375 on: January 06, 2021, 01:45:34 PM »
I've deleted two posts and sanctioned the authors.



Gentlemen, I got my own authority issues, and dislike having to give orders as a consequence - but if I don't enforce them when I feel I must give them, all the invisible janitor work I put in to keep the place running isn't worth anything.  I want a community where respect flows in all directions, but that does include towards me, thank you.

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Re: Changes to the Social Engineering models
« Reply #376 on: Yesterday at 11:13:53 PM »
I should add that I don't feel good about that incident.  I always feel like I've failed when I so much as have to edit a swear from a post, let alone doing deletions and giving out vacations. -So some of it's on me.

Kinda sorta SUPER awkward/impossible to talk about SE settings w/o talking about socialism and what-have-you - of course.  It was a saying socialism is evil kind of thing and that mutating into comparisons to current events and politics that was a problem, as current events almost instantaneously bore me out.

And von, you'll perhaps be interested to know that I got an actual communist who swings by every month or so to post aggravating garbage - and he's gonna deal with me thunderously failing if I see him post his usual here any time soon.  I may loosen up later as events indicate is prudent.

-See also last night's topped rules thread post in Council Room.


So IF y'all can leave out the value statements and contemporary politics, PLEASE discuss Planed and how it's socialist and how socialism works.  -And Police State and all that.  None of us have anything to prove to each other; we wanna talk about a fun game and have a good time doing so.  That there's some unity you can believe in, and I'm all for it.

-Carry on.

Offline bvanevery

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Re: Changes to the Social Engineering models
« Reply #377 on: Today at 05:09:14 AM »
So IF y'all can leave out the value statements and contemporary politics, PLEASE discuss Planed and how it's socialist and how socialism works.
Emphasis mine.  This is somewhat impossible.  I'll explain why.  Even within the Left, there are many strains of Socialism espoused.

Recently, I discovered a new group on Reddit called r/Practical_Socialism.  Its moderator is a refugee from various other leftist groups all trying to shout each other down about really wound up, picky stuff.  You're not doctrinaire this, you're not doctrinaire that!  Your theory is wrong, your history is wrong, your understanding is wrong, your reading comprehension is wrong, yadda yadda yadda.  You are not politically correct enough, Comrade!  So now you are banned for the slightest infraction because you're a "bootlicker" or whatever.

So this guy wanted to start a group, aimed at taking practical action of moving society to the left.  Not all this tinpot forum dictatorship and personal fiefdom garbage that most of the mods are doing, because they're such incredibly immature jerks.  So he roughly told it.  Well I tried one of the other leftist groups and almost immediately got banned.  So I saw his point pretty quickly!  The leftist ecology on Reddit is really as bad as he says.

Anyone who actually takes the effort to pursue Wikipedia, will see that Socialism is a broad subject area.  Articles that I've run into recently, are things like not all Socialists are Marxists.  Isn't that a kicker?  One of those a square is a rectangle, a rectangle is not a square kinds of things.  I'm still wrapping my head around the Nordic model, which many right wing detractors are quick to decry as not Socialist.  But I suspect they are probably halfway wrong.  Workers have more bargaining power enshrined into law in those countries, and that changes a number of things.  As well as some other things, which one could argue are Socialist.  Indeed, people do argue.  All the friggin' time.

In any society, you do not find agreement over what polarized, charged up words mean.  'Socialist' is one of those words in the USA.  It is value laden.  Even among people who support 'Socialism', it is value laden.  Nevermind people who use it as a synonym for all that is evil, wrong, and bad.

This is just what human beings do.  They fight about what words mean.  They are trying to control each other's behavior, through the symbolism of the word.  Or flag.  Or iconography.  Or manner of dress.  Or whatever.  This is what human beings do.  I have a B.A. in Sociocultural Anthropology, I studied this kind of stuff for awhile.

So when you see these terms in SMAC, you have to accept that the words are value laden and that this is deliberate.  SMAC is not a work of detached removal and remote examination.  It is a work of Art that pits philosophical systems against each other.  That's by design, and it even offends occasionally by design.  I tamped down the anti-Christian stuff in my mod for that reason, although dammit, the limited number of game mechanics are kinda pushing me back into the "Theocrats can't research" thing again.

Why did I change Free Market and Planned to Capitalist and Socialist?  Because that's what they are.  If you search xscript.txt, you can see where certain words are used.  Capitalist and capital explicitly appear in the dialogue.  It's a clear synonym for Free Market.  Socialist does not appear, but communism does.  As do nationalized industry, the equitable distribution of goods, and sharing with the lowliest members of society.  This is all Socialist, regardless of the exact flavor.  There's no ambiguity as to what the original game authors were talking about.
Code: [Select]
#SOCIAL1CAT1BAD2
#xs 440
#caption $CAPTION7
"It appalls me that you seek to perpetuate the crimes of the unjust
capitalist system here on this young world, $TITLE0. I must appeal to
your basic sense of justice, $NAME1, and implore you to consider a more
equitable distribution of goods."

#SOCIAL1CAT1PACT2
#xs 440
#caption $CAPTION7
"$TITLE0 $NAME1, I have warned you against these evil capitalist economics
you have embraced. My warnings have gone unheeded, however, and it is now
my moral duty to renounce our $PACT2."

#SOCIAL1CAT2GOOD
#xs 440
#caption $CAPTION7
"Your society's willingness to share its prosperity equally among even
its lowliest members sets an example we should all follow, $TITLE0 $NAME1.
I commend you."

#SOCIAL1CAT1WAR2
#xs 440
#caption $CAPTION7
"$TITLE0 $NAME1, I have warned you against these evil capitalist economics
you have embraced. It is now my moral duty to eradicate your faction
before such an unjust system can take root on this young world!"

#SOCIAL1CAT2WAR1
#xs 440
#caption $CAPTION7
"I see my warnings have gone unheeded, $TITLE0 $NAME1. I shall not
allow your Planned economics to stifle the just and proper
flow of capital on this planet. I shall now use all means at my
disposal to rid this world of the evils of communism and
nationalized industry! Vendetta upon you, $TITLE0 $NAME1!"

#SOCIAL1CAT2PACT1
#xs 440
#caption $CAPTION7
"I see my warnings have gone unheeded, $TITLE0 $NAME1. I shall not
allow your Planned economics to stifle the just and proper
flow of capital on this planet. I must now renounce our $PACT2 lest
you plunge this world into the abyss of communism and nationalized
industry!"


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Re: Changes to the Social Engineering models
« Reply #378 on: Today at 04:01:36 PM »
For the purpose of I brought it up and I do encourage members to discuss moderation policy when it isn't an attack on me - and unfortunately, that last is a frequent problem- I'll allow this time, not least because you're not wrong.

However, do make a good faith effort to keep discussion from going to the obvious places -and respect when He Who Pays His Own Money To Provide You This Place Free and Works To Run It if he says to dial your talk back- and we'll be fine. 

I want this to be a community of Responsible Adults, cordial, if not all friends, though I hope for friends.  There's a lot of hard work and hard thought behind that over many years I've been doing this since I accidentally got into forum management.

-Also, I misspelled "Planned".

 

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