Author Topic: Turning SMAX back into strategy game  (Read 3651 times)

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Offline bvanevery

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Re: Turning SMAX back into strategy game
« Reply #135 on: November 26, 2018, 02:12:58 AM »
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  • A test game has shown that the change to 4:3 odds for PSI attacks, seriously harms the Gaians' ability to make war.  The AI tends to use 3-Res armor for every unit, and these tend to live through mindworm attacks.  Even with a +2 PLANET rating.  Even when attacking from fungal squares.  Even a mindworm leveled up to Great Boil can't be sure of taking a 3-Res enemy down.  It's just not fun to use these offensively weakened mindworms, it's a real drag.

    Plus in my mod, a Green economy has -1 SUPPORT and -1 GROWTH.  The Gaians aren't going to crank out lots of mindworms with those penalties.  In fact it's questionable whether the +1 PLANET is worth it, offensively speaking.

    Finally, changing the odds does not affect a PLANET faction's ability to capture wild mindworms at all.  It only changes whether it's better to attack or defend.  Anyone who wants to harvest a bunch of Planet Pearls, can do so.  There's simply no answer here.

    Now as it happens in my last test game, on a Standard map, I only managed to capture one mindworm and one spore launcher.  Unlike playing on a Huge map, I didn't have vast expanses of unclaimed territory to go hunting in.  I had the Data Angels to the west, and the Peacekeepers to the east.  The Data Angels went to war with me fairly quickly and I was under a lot of pressure just trying to survive and hold them off.  They took 1 of my cities with a mind control probe, and I never got it back before I quit, so the threat was real.  Ultimately, they were outproducing me, which made me realize how weak my mindworms were as a weapons platform.  I didn't have free ones, it was costly to produce new ones, and they didn't do well against comparably expensive enemy units.

    Well, that's what playtesting is for.  Attack odds for PSI will remain the same in my mod, at 3:2.

    Offline tnevolin

    Re: Turning SMAX back into strategy game
    « Reply #136 on: November 26, 2018, 01:10:50 PM »
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  • Even when attacking from fungal squares.

    This doesn't benefit natives. Attacking to fungus does.

    With all of your other bonuses you should have 1.5 * 1.2 = 1.8 multiplier against 1.25 of 3-Res armor (disciplined) = 1.44 odds or 0.6 attack weight which is about 95% winning probability.
    Tim

    Offline bvanevery

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    Re: Turning SMAX back into strategy game
    « Reply #137 on: November 26, 2018, 05:27:18 PM »
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  • I tend to forget attacker or defender on fugus, as it is poorly documented.  Perhaps I should plant some fungus in the way of interloping units, instead of forests.

    I'm testing version 1.26 of my mod, where the Gaians do not have any PSI bonus.  They're just straight fighting like any +2 PLANET faction would.  The unit attacked was Commando, not Disciplined.  Commando is parity for Great Boil.  The problem is, it's way easier for the AI to come up with Commando 3-Res units than it is for me to come up with Great Boils.

    Offline bvanevery

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    Re: Turning SMAX back into strategy game
    « Reply #138 on: December 04, 2018, 04:56:42 PM »
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  • I conclude that a 200% PROTOTYPE penalty is a good change.  The typical drill when making a prototype is to design a cost 20 unit, to minimize how long it takes to get whatever the new weapon, armor, or chassis is.  Well, with a 200% penalty that becomes a cost 60 unit.  An Alien Artifact can provide 50 minerals towards that, putting someone just in reach of instantly finishing a prototype.

    Under peaceful circumstances, you can afford to just sit around and wait for it to complete, but rushing with an Artifact is definitely appropriate in close quarters early combat.  Like when you're the Morganites and have no weapons or probe teams, and the Usurpers are right next door making a directed research beeline for weapons and armor.  I held them off with piles of Synthmetal Skirmishers and an internal rail network.  I sent out ships to try to contact other humans, and eventually got a massive technology dump when I reached them and made contact with everyone.

    I don't know if the AI can pull all that off, probably they'd just get kicked off the continent and restarted.  But a human player can come up with creative ways to hold off an enemy and get ahead.

    Offline tnevolin

    Re: Turning SMAX back into strategy game
    « Reply #139 on: December 16, 2018, 10:07:07 PM »
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  • Hi folks.
    I worked some time to polish the settings for this strategical mod. I've decided to extend it and include not only armor and weapon strength rearrangement but also reposition many game features in technology tree. I feel like this will bring them at the right time and make game more dynamic. Please read complete description attached. This is the first dirty version but it is playable. Please let me know about any bugs or any problem with the file.

    I'd like to note one thing. This is not an exact and final mod. This is just an attempt to address some extremely overpowered or underpowered features and strategies. So I do not really care about small changes here and there. Therefore, I strongly encourage players to suggest their own small changes to adjust game playability or look/feel.

    For example, I made native base attack-defense base odds 1:1 for all realms just to avoid extreme 3:2 attack favored odds. However, I do not really care about exact numbers there. It could be anything in between if it makes sense for players, etc.

    So please feel free to contribute.

    The mod was designed on top of Thinker mod. However, it could be applied to any exe mod.
    « Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 01:23:53 AM by tnevolin »
    Tim

    Offline tnevolin

    Re: Turning SMAX back into strategy game
    « Reply #140 on: December 16, 2018, 10:09:26 PM »
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  • I've played it myself and got a sense of early game human exploits reduced to the level when they do not give human player immediate advantage. Together with Thinker mod it makes game challenging for a long time. It really takes making right decisions to win it now.
    Tim

    Offline bvanevery

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    Re: Turning SMAX back into strategy game
    « Reply #141 on: December 16, 2018, 10:33:13 PM »
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  • Initial note, looking over stuff.  Directions in installation.txt are wrong with respect to alphax-modified.txt.  That file would have to be renamed to alphax.txt.  Well, maybe Thinker .exe patch is handling things differently, but that's what you'd have to do for a straight SMAC installation.  Which is what I'll be testing.

    Offline bvanevery

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    Re: Turning SMAX back into strategy game
    « Reply #142 on: December 17, 2018, 12:14:23 AM »
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  • Huge map, Transcend, 50%..70% land, average settings, random opponents.  I draw Spartans.  First thing I notice is that armor starts at strength 2 and I don't immediately get a Scout upon settling a base.  Implication is bases will be defenseless initially, unless I have cash to pay to rush a unit, or I bring a unit to safeguard the new base.  As a human player I may adapt to this, but I think this will have a bad effect on the stock AI.

    In 2102 I rush my production for 25 credits so that I can get moving.  The fact that I know how to do this, and the stock AI doesn't, will also punish the AI.

    MY 2109.  I research Centauri Ecology.  Since I kept the default Discover, Conquer focus to see what the game is like from an AI's perspective, this indicates that the historical problem of the Spartans never researching Formers, has been dealt with in this mod.  I also realize, belatedly, that I blazed through the tech readout without reading what it says.  I should slow down since this is a mod.  I notice that the Weather Paradigm is available, which is weird after all these months of playing my own mod, where nobody can build any Secret Projects immediately.

    MY 2114.  I get lucky popping a pod and complete a Colony Pod I was working on.  This makes me realize that the more expensive cost of Scout units, will make it more attractive to try to seek supply pods to complete units instantly.  I design a Rover Former to take advantage of possible completions, although I will only build it for the first 10 minerals before switching it to something more economical.

    MY 2124.  I'm realizing I started without the Spartan's usual Scout Rover unit.  Fine by me, I don't give them that in my mod either.

    MY 2127.  I research Nonlinear Mathematics.  I've only built 3 cities and haven't met anyone yet.  If I meet anyone else anytime soon, I figure I'll be in a trivial position to kick their ass.  This tech also gives me this mod's version of Fundamentalist.  It gives +1 MORALE, +1 PLANET, +1 PROBE, and -3 RESEARCH.  I don't choose it at this time, as clearly, I have no one to victimize.  Getting mindworms walking around might be nice, but I have gained a Unity Rover as is, and don't really have any issue immediately exploring my environment.  Although it looks like I've got plenty of land mass to explore, I'm thinking that getting a ship might be important.

    southern earthquake
    southern earthquake

    MY 2133.  I was on almost a small island, except for a land extension running north up to the Garland Crater.  That looks like it goes on quite a ways, so I was probably on a peninsula.  Now an earthquake has raised land to the south.  I may now be on an isthmus.

    I have not been rushing Colony or Former production anymore.  Rather, I have been waiting for my Scouts to find good city sites and for my roads to reach those sites.  The cloning of 2 of my Scouts, and finding a Rover, has mitigated the problem of whether I'll have a defensive unit for a new city.  Plus I have 171 cash.

    MY 2137.  The southern extension didn't touch any new land, it's still ocean down there.  I am either on a north-south peninsula or island.  I have not made it to the Garland Crater yet.  I begin the Weather Paradigm as I have a base with a size 7 mine.  It's expensive, 440 minerals, but I doubt I have anyone challenging me for it this early and I've got the minerals.  This is the old school way to trash the AI, get started on those projects before they even have the chance.  This is why in my mod, nobody is allowed to start until Tier 3 techs.

    I am starting to wonder about negative effects on AIs if they choose Fundamentalist and get the -3 RESEARCH penalty.  A big consequence of slow research is not getting techs to start Secret Projects with.  In my mod, I've set the factions to be a lot less constrained about what social choices they make.  They usually do not have secondary compulsions, like the Believers being forced to pursue PROBE for instance.  They can usually do whatever they want.  Thus unconstrained, Fundamentalist is a popular choice in my mod.  Most AI factions spend some time as Fundamentalist, some switch to something else eventually.  But these factions look like they have the usual constraints on them, so I may not see that many Fundies.

    MY 2138.  I gain Doctrine: Flexibility from a supply pod.  That means this mod made the wise choice of having it be a Tier 1 tech.  AIs will not have egregious problems getting off of islands, although in my experience, it can still slow them down from expanding much.

    MY 2140.  I am on an island.  I am not connected to the Garland Crater up north, although it's just off my shore.  That supply pod that gave me Doctrine: Flexibility was my last one, so I got lucky.  If I hadn't, my Discover, Conquer focus might have prevented me from getting off the island for a long time.  Or rather, would have prevented an AI.  I look up the research weights to verify this, and find it's a pure Explore tech, growth=3.  Anyone not doing Explore is going to be crippled by this.  I don't think that's a good choice, nor accurate in terms of what a foil chassis does for you.  A navy is a way of conquering.  Making a sea base and getting access to easy ocean energy, is a kind of wealth production.

    Now this mod, I realize, has made a major change in research foci compared to what I'm used to.  "Economic" techs are placed under Discover, not Build.  I don't know how that will play out.  I happen to be a Discover faction, odd as that was in the original game.  In my mod the Spartans are a pure Conquer faction.  I will keep this game's default choices, in order to see how that pans out for an AI.
    « Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 01:19:22 AM by bvanevery »

    Offline tnevolin

    Re: Turning SMAX back into strategy game
    « Reply #143 on: December 17, 2018, 01:21:23 AM »
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  • Thank's bvanevery. You are always first to the forum posts here.
    :)

    So far I see that you don't have any specific suggestions, just observations.

    I agree that scout worth 20 minerals doesn't let you build it outright anymore. Rarely I saw one of my new bases being destroyed by wild worm but on a large scale it is not significant. I also didn't notice it affecting AI much.
    Unfortunately, with the weird unit cost formula it is either this of huge imbalance in other military units.
    In Yutzi's mod the number of free minerals can be changed as well.

    Research goals are easy set for each technology. If you want something to be sure discovered then set its value high in all areas. This way regardless of research priorities it will get eventually discovered. This is the case with Centauri Ecology, for example. It is set high in all areas just because terraforming benefits everything. This also can be easily adjusted.

    Some SE choices have TALENT embedded but this is not visible in the SE screen. Fundamentalist is one of such choices with +1 TALENT. Help to live through war times.
    Tim

    Offline tnevolin

    Re: Turning SMAX back into strategy game
    « Reply #144 on: December 17, 2018, 01:24:35 AM »
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  • Initial note, looking over stuff.  Directions in installation.txt are wrong with respect to alphax-modified.txt.  That file would have to be renamed to alphax.txt.  Well, maybe Thinker .exe patch is handling things differently, but that's what you'd have to do for a straight SMAC installation.  Which is what I'll be testing.

    Damn. I cannot do anything right first time. Can I?
    Renamed it to alphax.txt in archive and reattached.
    Tim

    Offline bvanevery

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    Re: Turning SMAX back into strategy game
    « Reply #145 on: December 17, 2018, 01:28:21 AM »
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  • Don't sweat the d'oh!  If you read my earliest thread notes, I did the same sorts of things.

    my death tech
    my death tech

    MY 2141.  I'm starting to wonder if the weapons section of this tech tree is balanced.  This seems awfully early to get a Gatling gun.  Where's the armor to defend against this?  I wonder if any cost change has been made to mitigate this, like I can have a weapon of doom but it'll cost me everything to produce.

    More concerning is the early Living Refinery.  +2 SUPPORT is a powerful ability to gain, let alone this early in the game.  I have a 2nd mineral site at my disposal, that I'm starting to mine now.  I predict I won't have any problem completing this and the Weather Paradigm, no matter how expensive they are.  I was going to build a Command Center on my 2nd pile of minerals and use it to crank out trained troops, but I'll do that somewhere else instead.  I don't have anybody to fight yet anyways.

    In fact the Living Refinery is cheaper than the Weather Paradigm, so I switch production, as it is clearly more valuable.  Not that I don't want the WP but if I see any competition at all, priorities are crystal clear.  I still say I'll easily get them both.

    competition
    competition

    MY 2146.  Roze starts on the Weather Paradigm.  I already did, and with a stock .exe, I am almost certain to do better at minerals than the AI will.  The AI generally doesn't know how to identify the best mineral deposit, build a city there, and get cranking on a Secret Project.  They just build their stuff "wherever" and they don't tend to get the job done in time.  If you start at the same time they do, you've pretty much beat them.

    MY 2149.  The Cyborgs arrive by Transport.  They're Solicitous, and want to make a Pact to go to war against the University.  I need a victim for my MORALE and excessive weaponry, so I agree!  With my luck they'll be on the other side of the map but whatever, worth a try.  Realistically I'm building out these 2 Secret Projects for now.

    The Cyborgs are a pipsqueak next door neighbor.  Tiny island start.  This is why I modded the world generator settings, I put a lot of time into that.  It bears remembering that this is a Huge planet.  They want to borrow money.  Since I do not feel threatened by Roze's pathetic attempt to build the Weather Paradigm, I agree.  I'm about to start fishing supply pods out of the water anyways.  Soon I'll have plenty of money.

    She has 4 techs I don't have.  She just traded me Doctrine: Loyalty for my Doctrine: Mobility.  'Cuz, you know, Cyborgs.  They don't do stupid things like that in my mod for some reason.  Probably the Tier 3 delay and a fair amount of cross-listing of research weights for some things.  Now I can add the Command Nexus to my possible list of acquisitions.  I only have so many minerals though.

    I can't trade my other techs to her because of my SPs.  I buy Social Psych from her for 100.  Her "empire" is even more pathetic than I saw at first glance.  She's got 1 city on 1 island, and has her 2nd city on a 2nd island shared with University Base.  They're close by, within Transport range.  But I'll be busy fishing and building SPs for a bit.

    MY 2150.  I switch to the sweeet new Police State.  +2 POLICE, +1 SUPPORT, +1 INDUSTRY, only -1 EFFIC.  With only 6 highly centralized bases on a Huge map, my income and research per turn doesn't even change.

    MY 2152.  I read that restrictions, such as on nutrients, go away with various Tier 1 techs.  I'm not sure what tech I got to make that so, but I can build a 3 nutrient Rolling Rainy farm just fine.  Helps with that size 7 mine I've got.

    I forgot that in this mod, Forests take 12 turns to build.  I really hadn't noticed.  Usual drill is to put 1 Forest by a new city at the beginning of the game.  First a city expands with farmland and 2 nutrients to get to size 2.  Then it hits the Forest and gets more minerals to more rapidly complete a Colonist.  Wet, lather, rinse, repeat.  It's one of the secrets to my success.

    The Hive must seriously suck.  Their graph rating is lower than the Cyborgs, and I can see exactly how bad they are.  Everyone else is pretty much at parity.  The Believers and the Gaians are the last 2 factions in the game.

    MY 2155.  I complete a Command Center and start cranking out trained Scouts.  Production is not high but I don't think it particularly needs to be, they're just garrison troops.  Rather than wait for a better city site, I decide to start the Command Nexus in my capitol.  Doesn't have great production, but it'll get better as I build up a police presence, and it's good to start early.

    MY 2158.  Have missile launchers, will travel.

    MY 2159.  Consciousness gets their city next to University Base utterly crushed.  It's gone.

    MY 2161.  I buy Planetary Networks form the Cyborgs for 100.  I design a Foil Probe Team and start production.
    « Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 02:15:50 AM by bvanevery »

    Offline bvanevery

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    Re: Turning SMAX back into strategy game
    « Reply #146 on: December 17, 2018, 02:22:45 AM »
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  • just wait
    just wait

    Holy crap!  Mindworm be like, you die now.  Well I've playtested 1:1 Psi odds before and my conclusion was, just don't attack.  Being Disciplined ala Spartan clearly isn't enough to attack with.  +2 MORALE is stronger on defense than offense anyways.

    MY 2165.  Met the Believers at sea.  They immediately demanded that I sink their Transport, no negotiation.  How can I refuse?  Except the interesting wrinkle, everyone's got 2 as base armor, and I only sent out the cheapest Laser Skimship I could make.  So I actually did refuse.

    MY 2164.  Having Spore Launchers or roving Mindworms trash your forests is much more obnoxious in this mod, because of the time it takes to build them.

    MY 2177.  I complete the Living Refinery.  I get a movie of asteroids I of course haven't visited yet.

    MY 2192.  I've realized that because everyone starts with 2 armor, there are probably no Non-Combat units.  Probe teams, for instance, probably can protect cities for no support.  I say "probably" because I think they'd have to be the only kind of unit doing the protecting.  If there's an ordinary defender and it gets killed, probe teams still die with them.

    I'm wondering why my game suddenly won't task switch when pressing CTRL-ALT-TAB under Windows 10.  It worked fine when I started.  Is a USB drive interfering?  Maybe because after removing that, things are working again.

    The AI likes to build these Armor 2 probe teams.  Unfortunately they've lost their characteristic probe team unit artwork.  They look like Speeders with a probe weapon on them.  Which of course is what they are.
    « Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 03:33:30 AM by bvanevery »

    Offline tnevolin

    Re: Turning SMAX back into strategy game
    « Reply #147 on: December 17, 2018, 02:25:20 AM »
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  • MY 2141.  I'm starting to wonder if the weapons section of this tech tree is balanced.  This seems awfully early to get a Gatling gun.  Where's the armor to defend against this?  I wonder if any cost change has been made to mitigate this, like I can have a weapon of doom but it'll cost me everything to produce.

    I chained weapons one after another and armors one after another but not with each other. So it is possible to get advanced weapon earlier than armor or vice versa. There is no defense against this. Even if we chain them all together still one faction can advance technology and get ahead in weapon or armor. This mod is still a slightly better than boxed version where even the average weapon/armor progression was not thought well.
    Tim

    Offline tnevolin

    Re: Turning SMAX back into strategy game
    « Reply #148 on: December 17, 2018, 02:26:48 AM »
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  • More concerning is the early Living Refinery.  +2 SUPPORT is a powerful ability to gain, let alone this early in the game.  I have a 2nd mineral site at my disposal, that I'm starting to mine now.  I predict I won't have any problem completing this and the Weather Paradigm, no matter how expensive they are.  I was going to build a Command Center on my 2nd pile of minerals and use it to crank out trained troops, but I'll do that somewhere else instead.  I don't have anybody to fight yet anyways.

    I don't think it is too powerful. Just +2 minerals per base. Its value declines with time. So allowing it later is essentially a waste.

    I respectfully disagree it is more valuable than Weather Paradigm. WP gives you advanced terraforming with boreholes and condesers which keep adding more and more to your bases outrunning measly +2 minerals in long run. I agree that 2 minerals could be a big bonus very early when your base production is about 2-4 minerals anyway. Well, I can move it a little later than but not too late, though.
    Tim

    Offline tnevolin

    Re: Turning SMAX back into strategy game
    « Reply #149 on: December 17, 2018, 02:36:04 AM »
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  • I am starting to wonder about negative effects on AIs if they choose Fundamentalist and get the -3 RESEARCH penalty.  A big consequence of slow research is not getting techs to start Secret Projects with.

    SE is soooooooo gray area. I won't even try to defend my choices. If you think -3 RESEARCH is too much - let me know. I'll change it. Have no preference myself.
    Tim

     

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