The Progenitors

[Buster's Uncle]

Point.  I hardly get perfect TV reception for stations 100 miles away with repeaters a lot closer.  We're talking SERIOUS juice (and/or serious antennas known to point the right way) for an SOS to hope to get through 10 lyrs away.

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-You know, absent any way to get a sense of their relative sizes, Marr and H'mnee's gender dimorphism is actually far LESS pronounced than my herd-species theory calls for - and I'd hoped it was actually a sign of how amazingly long ago the Usurpers and Caretakers separated and evolved independently, at least tens of thousand of years.  This needs more thinking...

[MercantileInterest]

How much interference does deep space generate? Once a signal makes it through the atmosphere, doesn't it grow clearer? I've heard humanity's first transmission powerful enough to reach space was the Munich (Nazi) Olympics. To take Yitzi's point, we almost certainly know there aren't any Progenitors left on Tau Ceti. Maybe they destroyed that Manifold after the premature flowering. (No reason to go back.) If transmission does take that much power, we're guaranteed fusion before 2300.

BUncle, your herd species theory explains everything really well, except for the H'mnee holds a position of leadership. An alpha male should be running the herd, not a female. Maybe the aliens have three biological genders.

[Buster's Uncle]

Do we know she's female?  Isn't that a guess by a probe team?  Do Prog genders even match up with Earth genders?  Why would they?

[MercantileInterest]

Every lifeform on Earth is either asexual or male/female. Any other system seems unnecessarily complicated. It's probably a standard pattern.

[Buster's Uncle]

And why should, for instance, the males dominate?  It's is certainly not the way it always works outside the Earth mammals...


And why should I not ask you what it'll take to get you in an avatar?

[Lord Avalon]

And why should, for instance, the males dominate?  It's is certainly not the way it always works outside the Earth mammals...

Or even within Earth mammals, like the hyena, lemur or bonobo.

[MercantileInterest]

According to the profiles, Marr is male (sort of) and H'mnee is female (sort of). Either way, there's a dominance issue.

While that puts this slightly off topic, the hyena is a carnivore, lemurs(?) and bonobos are herbivores. Does earth have any herds with dominant females? Ants and bees, suppose. (Smitten for bad science.) With mammals, a single breeding female couldn't sustain a herd.

[bvanevery]

The Progenitors, and an introduction to the challenge of Xenopology Pt.1

Your article says:

It is difficult to believe that a Progenitor leader could be anything but a dictator so absolute as to make Joseph Stalin look like Gandhi.

That doesn't square with the Caretakers being perfectly capable of making the Democratic social engineering choice.  The Usurpers are the ones who can't do it.

I think you are attributing things to instinct / Nature that are not reasonable for a sentient being of, say, modern human level of intelligence.  Big brains give flexibility.  That is one of their main evolutionary functions.

[Yitzi]

Every lifeform on Earth is either asexual or male/female.

Some are hermaphrodites, or can switch between male and female.  While a 3-gender system is unlikely (it adds complexity as compared to 2-gender, without adding the recombining advantages of 2-gender over asexual), it is entirely plausible that which "role" is played by a given organism at a given time will depend on factors other than the individual's genetics, and it's even possible that there'd be a 2-gender system that does not easily map to "male" and "female".

[bvanevery]

it is entirely plausible that which "role" is played by a given organism at a given time will depend on factors other than the individual's genetics,

It's not just plausible, it's human fact.  I recently saw a documentary about somewhere in the world, can't remember where, where "girls" finally grow penises at puberty and become boys.  But they are are psychologically identifying as boys before then, telling others no no, I am / I feel like a boy.  The phenomenon is common in this town and they even had a word for people going through this late gender transition.  I don't think the documentary said why people experienced this.  I'm guessing some kind of environmental contamination.

Sorry I am too lazy to look this thing up right now.

[Yitzi]

They're just too powerful. You can stomp the AI even more easily than with a human faction. Playing them with a self imposed base limit of six makes them a bit more interesting. A multiplayer match setting two players of equal skill in command of the xenos would make life fun for the other human players.

Although with enough humans, and a rule that humans can take part in cooperative victory but the alien players can't, and that an alien win is considered a double loss for the other alien player, things could get interesting.

[MercantileInterest]

They're just too powerful. You can stomp the AI even more easily than with a human faction. Playing them with a self imposed base limit of six makes them a bit more interesting. A multiplayer match setting two players of equal skill in command of the xenos would make life fun for the other human players.

Although with enough humans, and a rule that humans can take part in cooperative victory but the alien players can't, and that an alien win is considered a double loss for the other alien player, things could get interesting.

Were doing something similar right now: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=18632.0

[ComradeCrimson]

One thing to note with pack/herd dominance is that females often fight for top position as well. Wolves are a great example of this, where there is an Alpha Male, and Alpha Female. And while other females may be mated with occasionally the Alpha Female demands the utmost attention from the Alpha Male as she has earned the right to be the prime breeding partner of the Alpha Male, the most physically imposing of the pack. So dominance in herd/pack mentalities can play on both genders, and it would not be hard to believe such a thing could be with Progenitors.

 Even more so, with herbivore like animals, elephants also display levels of dominance amongst both genders. There will be dominant bulls in bachelor parties as well as elderly matrons of herds of female/youth elephants, who are at the top of the social ladder. I also think that the premise of a dictatorship in these societies is mostly true- but absolute control would be impossible I think. Its all based on prominence and defectors as stated would occur to challenge the leadership from time to time. I could very well see a "democratic" regime for the Caretakers being intertwined with displays of imposing dominance as a statesman, as well as organizationally more likely being something of a parliamentary procedure rather than something like direct democracy or even representative republic democracy like how the United States does, and being more akin to something like how Cuba runs with a government that votes on issues- but doesn't necessarily rely on input from a voting populace. It could even be something of a constitutional monarchy or despotism in a sense that there is a prime dominant leader but they delegate power to the parliament in order to appease different herds/groups within the civilization.

This also makes sense upon review of the two factions because the Caretakers, philosophically are extreme conservationists who have willingly chose to let their species wane in order to avoid catastrophe and incredible amounts of destruction; splitting from Marr's Usurpers, which indicates that the Caretakers are something of a conscientious objector group that likely is herds or individuals who all were both not agreeable to Marr's quest for power and immortality as well as not being intimidated/favourable of him as a leader, as he represents something rather unnatural in how tightly he grips power, not allowing natural process a chance to remove him.

Marr on the other hand with his Usurpers represent the opposite camp. Total control with his followers following him through his evidently aggressive and domineering behaviour and the fact that the quest for immortality and power appeals to them. To strengthen the herd with such a goal that is transcendence, the ultimate form of cheating death- effective immortality. And Marr represents the other side of the coin of the alien mentality. Power, control. While H'mnee is all about the natural balance of power. They represent the two sides of the biological coin of their race in a sense, I feel.

[bvanevery]

I could very well see a "democratic" regime for the Caretakers being intertwined with displays of imposing dominance as a statesman, as well as organizationally more likely being something of a parliamentary procedure rather than something like direct democracy or even representative republic democracy like how the United States does, and being more akin to something like how Cuba runs with a government that votes on issues- but doesn't necessarily rely on input from a voting populace.

Of course you can see it.  But in so doing, you are also probably redefining what a "Democratic" social engineering choice means in Alpha Centauri.  Granted we are offered a very coarse grained trichotomy: Police State, Democratic, or Fundamentalist.  You might as well ask how "Democratic" are the UN Peacekeepers?  To what degree are you willing to undermine the notion of Democracy, yet retain and claim that a faction behaves "Democratically" ?

A real world example: how democratic have blacks felt the USA to be at various times?  Like even during WW II?  The military started integrating but I think they were only getting started, like being able to ride on a bus together and stuff.  We wouldn't have The Tuskegee Airmen as a thing if blacks were really well integrated.  Meanwhile the South was racist as heck, the KKK was strong, and other parts of the country weren't so great either.  Racism and eugenics were only a matter of degree in the USA as compared to the Nazis, not quite willing to just slay the marginalized social groups.

Do you buy that in 2150 (time possibly necessary to research and implement a Democratic societal model), "Democratic" means "keepin' the darkies down" or some such WW II analogue?  Do you think it means Putin playing revolving door with going in and out of titular power, to avoid term limits?  I don't.  I think that's a complete crock.  I think "Democratic" in the game means something minimally similar to what the various industrial democracies on the planet are currently like.  Why should I be wrong?  Pointedly, it should look something like the present day United Nations, because Lal gets in a snit with anyone who isn't Democratic.

Of course I grant you that some people have very dim views of present day USA style democracy and think they're living under Fascists, etc.  Although especially the election of [Sleezebag] gives one pause, I do think such people are prone to exaggeration and are not objective about how good or bad the USA is, compared to other regimes around the world.  Like, they have a lot of freedom to whine about problems and put funny labels on them.  In other parts of the world, you are persecuted, jailed, and summarily executed for such antics.  That would equate more with the "Police State" social engineering choice in SMAC.  "Fundamentalist" regimes are similarly limiting of freedoms and actually SMAC's distinction between that and a "Police State" is completely arbitrary.  I guarantee you ISIS is running a Police State.

After I finished the above, I checked my email and ran into an example of democracy actually happening.

-dakota-access-pipeline-executive-order-dapl-standing-rock-no-keystone-investment-energy-transfer-partners-kelcy-warren-donation/][Sleezebag] Dakota Access Pipeline Executive Order: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know
3. The Standing Rock Tribe Will Go to Court Seeking to Invalidate the Executive Order & Camp Leaders Want ‘Mass Civil Disobedience’

If you don't have a separation of powers, where the people can go to the courts to seek injunctive relief against the actions of other branches of government, such as the Executive... then you don't have Democracy.  Talking about the Caretakers having 'democracy' where they don't bother with what people want, just make decisions like Cuba does, is a farce.  Now I'm sure someone out there thinks we're all helpless, voting doesn't matter, courts don't matter, etc.  They're wrong, they're not being objective, but some people do believe they're living under tyranny.  Even when the reality is they're living in a democratic system where it's difficult but not impossible to get their way.

[ComradeCrimson]

Now I'm sure someone out there thinks we're all helpless, voting doesn't matter, courts don't matter, etc.  They're wrong, they're not being objective, but some people do believe they're living under tyranny.  Even when the reality is they're living in a democratic system where it's difficult but not impossible to get their way.

All fair points, however I must also state something to the contrary;

I personally do not believe voting to be futile. Quite the opposite rather. I think it to be volatile. As elitist as this sounds, democracy can only truly work as an effective system is if the populace is educated, aware and informed enough of their nation's problems, and to a good degree, history and social mechanisms.

Without this knowledge you're giving the metaphorical guns to the ignorant, the trigger to the ill disciplined, the button to the unaware. Demagogues have gotten into power because of this, and history proves that time and time again. Adolf Hitler, for example was elected. He may have not been overwhelmingly elected by the vast majority but he was voted strongly enough to claim power.

Its how in recent times how Erdogan in Turkey and how Donald [Sleezebag] in America have claimed power. Not that I am necessarily meaning to compare Donald [Sleezebag] and Adolf Hitler, or even that I am saying Donald [Sleezebag] is a complete demagogue (but he most certainly is a populist who has some rather extreme views), but I feel that if people aren't truly aware of how their system works it can lead to disastrous consequences. Extremists can gain power easily by manipulating the flow and sway of people's emotions during an election and it can lead to staggering problems once these people take power.

I personally think that SMAC's representation of every single social policy in the game would likely vary according to the faction and leader implementing it. Gaian Fundamentalism is not going to look the same as Believer Fundamentalism. Worship of planet is not the same as worship of Abrahamic god and Christ.

Hive focus on power is not the same as Spartan focus on power. The hive wouldn't allow its citizens weapons and instead just increases the amount of weapons it has for its army and gears towards expansion for the good of the collective, while Spartan power would be a combination of heavily armed militias, paramilitaries and the base army growing in number; somewhat similar to how Serbia was during the Yugoslav wars with countless volunteer militias fighting the war for the nation, with often horrifying results.

And Morganite free market is going to look considerably different than per se, a university free market. One of them is going to be a monopolised economy under Morgan industries, and the other is going to be a bunch of professors selling stupid amounts of snake oil and drugs to hapless students- who will likely be broke and can't afford tuition fees- so they'll just shift market to selling pharmaceuticals to whomever is a democracy.


Edit: That said, apathy is just as dangerous as not voting, in my opinion. I always voted. But I always make sure I am informed.