Author Topic: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod  (Read 18664 times)

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Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #960 on: September 16, 2020, 07:45:17 PM »
You are right. That in-turn exploit is there. I don't know what to do with it, though. Revert industry fix back?
Another change I proposed it to make hurry cost not at all dependent on INDUSTRY rating. That is logical but not too transparent to user. However, user will be given a final price anyway so may work for certain not so meticulous users who doesn't count every brick and just rely on whatever computer says.
Tim

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #961 on: September 17, 2020, 01:30:22 AM »
I am about to introduce alternative hurry mechanics in light of all discovered exploits with production and hurrying.

1. Hurrying cost is not dependent on INDUSTRY setting. It is calculated as if INDUSTRY = 0. May produce some penny fluctuations due to rounding.
2. Hurrying cost is same flat x4 for everything regardless of already accumulated minerals.

I understand this may be perceived as huge simplification for those used to play vanilla hurry mini-game with calculator on a table. However, this seems to be an only possible way to get rid of these micro exploits here and there. Besides, I don't see this seriously disrupting the main course of the game. After all, more drastic innovations were introduced in this mod already with moderate success.

Positive things

No exploits of hurrying and switching between categories (facility->unit, facility->project).

Building stuff is no longer INDUSTRY dependent which was a concern I kept hearing over and over again. Now INDUSTRY effectively affects mineral production, as it should. Whereas, ECONOMY + EFFICIENCY affect cash production, as it should. INDUSTRY is slightly less powerful now because of this.

Equal price for each production brick eliminates need for spending planning. Now player can buy what is needed rather than save for future facilities hurrying.

Possible implications

Rich faction used to hurry a lot will overpay due to facilities hurry cost increase by about 25% on average. Could be noticeable drawback if they buy about half of their production which is hardly achievable even for Morgan.

Tim

Offline Tayta Malikai

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #962 on: September 17, 2020, 01:52:05 AM »
Sounds promising. Another benefit will be that this eliminates all discrepancies between hurrying vs upgrading units, which I always found confusing before.

Is it possible to expose the energy cost per mineral in thinker.ini, or is it hardcoded?

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #963 on: September 17, 2020, 02:21:16 AM »
Don't know yet. Will check out.
Tim

Offline lolada

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #964 on: September 17, 2020, 07:50:59 AM »
I am about to introduce alternative hurry mechanics in light of all discovered exploits with production and hurrying.

1. Hurrying cost is not dependent on INDUSTRY setting. It is calculated as if INDUSTRY = 0. May produce some penny fluctuations due to rounding.
2. Hurrying cost is same flat x4 for everything regardless of already accumulated minerals.

I understand this may be perceived as huge simplification for those used to play vanilla hurry mini-game with calculator on a table. However, this seems to be an only possible way to get rid of these micro exploits here and there. Besides, I don't see this seriously disrupting the main course of the game. After all, more drastic innovations were introduced in this mod already with moderate success.

Positive things

No exploits of hurrying and switching between categories (facility->unit, facility->project).

Building stuff is no longer INDUSTRY dependent which was a concern I kept hearing over and over again. Now INDUSTRY effectively affects mineral production, as it should. Whereas, ECONOMY + EFFICIENCY affect cash production, as it should. INDUSTRY is slightly less powerful now because of this.

Equal price for each production brick eliminates need for spending planning. Now player can buy what is needed rather than save for future facilities hurrying.

Possible implications

Rich faction used to hurry a lot will overpay due to facilities hurry cost increase by about 25% on average. Could be noticeable drawback if they buy about half of their production which is hardly achievable even for Morgan.

For my playstyle rushing is very important and i did find 4 energy per credit quite punishing for units.. 2 was likely way too cheap in comparison. I almost never hurry units - or just hurry them near the end, while i tend to hurry facilities very often. I would consider going mixed - 3 energy per credits for everything, or just try to expose the variable in .ini.

What are implications?

Currently its quite hard to build up the army and that leads to slower game. One has to build infrastructure then rush it, grow, its hard to produce units until bases are at least 10-20 minerals. I don't see myself going to war before i have Recycling + Genejack.. thats +100% minerals.. and even then production is not great because its hard to get decent population due to drone issues.
Going with same X energy per unit and per facility would help rushing them so one could start attacking earlier. Then there might be trade off.. do i rush infrastructure or units? 4 energy feels like a lot, I'd like to experiment with 3 energy per min, it would maybe speed up the game a bit in war department.

BUGS

1. Tim there's really annoying bug with Hunter-Seeker. Once you have it and AI tries to probe your base - popup that pops up saying "X factions probe team was returned ... by hunter-seeker".. pops up like 15 times in a row. Happened to me twice i thought popup in on infinite loop and that i would not be able to continue the game. I held enter in the end until it closed. This is WTP only bug.

2. Another bug is when AI return your probe "unharm.. action when choose not to kill them if you are not at war" - it return the probe in capital. If the probe is Foil and capital has no coastal access.. its a bummer. I heard about this bug from other people also - it happens also in your mod. So this is vanilla bug i think.

Offline Nevill

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #965 on: September 17, 2020, 09:21:33 AM »
You are right. That in-turn exploit is there. I don't know what to do with it, though. Revert industry fix back?
Another change I proposed it to make hurry cost not at all dependent on INDUSTRY rating. That is logical but not too transparent to user. However, user will be given a final price anyway so may work for certain not so meticulous users who doesn't count every brick and just rely on whatever computer says.
My position as a player is that every change that can't outright be stated to be a bugfix should be optional. This, however, increases the amount of work you have to do, unless you can just do (If Var = 0 use vanilla code, else use modded code) for everything.

This exploit doesn't bother me much, because I won't be using it, and if we are talking MP then there are far worse things one can do to cheat... like edit alphax.txt on the fly and take advantage of those changes on your turn only.

I'll probably still use your version given the choice. I just miss "the first 10 minerals cost the same regardless of what you build)"

As for the new mechanic, I am conflicted. It devalues early credits, which are few and far between as it is (lolada may be onto something with 30 credits per mineral row), and it is somewhat less intuitive than a flat pay-per-mineral. That said, SMAC taught me to calculate how much is 11/17 of 48 in my head, so again it wouldn't bother me much, and it should get rid of the exploit.

I would appreciate it if the current cost per mineral was displayed somewhere in the pop-up, but that might confuse even more people...
« Last Edit: September 17, 2020, 09:39:27 AM by Nevill »

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #966 on: September 17, 2020, 03:01:53 PM »
1. Tim there's really annoying bug with Hunter-Seeker. Once you have it and AI tries to probe your base - popup that pops up saying "X factions probe team was returned ... by hunter-seeker".. pops up like 15 times in a row. Happened to me twice i thought popup in on infinite loop and that i would not be able to continue the game. I held enter in the end until it closed. This is WTP only bug.

Was it AI probe trying to get into base? If so, maybe it was just trying again and again. I should reduce their turns to zero so it doesn't repeat.
Also keep the save if you can so we can verify it's fixed.

2. Another bug is when AI return your probe "unharm.. action when choose not to kill them if you are not at war" - it return the probe in capital. If the probe is Foil and capital has no coastal access.. its a bummer. I heard about this bug from other people also - it happens also in your mod. So this is vanilla bug i think.

This is vanilla's. Sometime sea units are returned to land bases. Never looked at it but will add to my todo list.
Tim

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #967 on: September 17, 2020, 06:06:39 PM »
It seems that number of TODOs is growing to the level where fun project enters a permanent development stage of any software project. Never foreseen this happening. 😲
From one side I am grateful for all of your feedback - often quite constructive! From the other side, the backlog needs prioritization. I encourage everybody to use GitHub issues: https://github.com/tnevolin/thinker-doer/issues. I will also gradually move everything I can from text files and forum thread to there. However, if you enter them right there it'll speed up things.

It also helps to keep dedicated discussion thread about the specific issue as well as verify that similar issue is already filed and avoid duplicates.
Tim

Offline Nevill

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #968 on: September 17, 2020, 07:53:12 PM »
Compared to Thinker, AI barely expands as of v122. It's 2150s, and Gaia has 2 bases, while Sparta has 3. I see v130 made this change:
Quote
Base tries to build colonies if there is room for colonization.
Was something broken? Haven't tested new versions yet.

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #969 on: September 17, 2020, 08:00:49 PM »
Don't think so. I also observed Thinker not expanding due to random factors. Need pretty comprehensive test to understand whether there is some system mistake. I am working on tuning expansion right now.
Tim

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #970 on: September 17, 2020, 08:57:40 PM »
1. Tim there's really annoying bug with Hunter-Seeker. Once you have it and AI tries to probe your base - popup that pops up saying "X factions probe team was returned ... by hunter-seeker".. pops up like 15 times in a row. Happened to me twice i thought popup in on infinite loop and that i would not be able to continue the game. I held enter in the end until it closed. This is WTP only bug.

https://github.com/tnevolin/thinker-doer/issues/3
Tim

Offline lolada

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #971 on: September 22, 2020, 08:04:26 AM »
Here is one interesting. This is fungal boom pop and I captured units and fungal tower.. But you can't really capture fungal tower so I could move worms away and tower stayed inactive there i presume.. it wasnt drawn in graphics on fungus.
Later on I moved former there and accidentally unit over that tile and my unit killed my former..  ::) and that killed fungal tower.

I've also seen elsewhere native alien units killing one of their kind in bombardment i think. That happens also, saw it a few times.


Offline Tayta Malikai

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #972 on: September 22, 2020, 09:19:02 AM »
I think I've seen that sort of behaviour with "capturing" Fungal Towers too. But it was a long time ago.

Never seen native units killing each other, but the game text claims that native Spore Launchers will attack other Spore Launchers, so it seems intended.

Offline Nevill

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #973 on: September 22, 2020, 09:59:57 AM »
I think I've seen that sort of behaviour with "capturing" Fungal Towers too. But it was a long time ago.

Never seen native units killing each other, but the game text claims that native Spore Launchers will attack other Spore Launchers, so it seems intended.
This might have to do something with the bug that has artillery units attack each other, even when they are on the same faction, or even attack themselves (a ship trying to bombard a tile and sinking itself is pretty funny though). There was also code for artillery to protect nearby territory from bombardment... I think, which could result in all sort of weirdness.

I'll try to run a couple tests this evening, see if I could replicate any of them.

Re: SMAX - The Will to Power - mod
« Reply #974 on: September 22, 2020, 12:30:40 PM »
^Spore Launchers are aggressive and highly territorial and will attack other nearby spore launchers. When defending
territory, tame Spore Launchers may also engage in artillery duels with units of their own faction.
Tim

 

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