Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Valka on August 21, 2013, 01:16:40 AM

Title: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 21, 2013, 01:16:40 AM
[In reaction to mention of Mylochka's Star Trek art.]

That name looks familiar, like an artist who has been illustrating the Valjiir stories online... Bingo!  :D (just checked the membership list and deviantArt page) I love the way she interprets those characters! I've been a Valjiir fan ever since the days of snail-mail ordering the zines from Minnesota back in the '80s, when my grandmother was freaking out because I was receiving parcels from "Intergalactic Underground Press"!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 21, 2013, 01:25:04 AM
I've helped her plot a few Valjiir stories - the one about DelMonde and the baby doomsday machines was my idea.  She knocked that one out of the park.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 21, 2013, 01:26:14 AM
Hola, Valka!  Buster's Uncle (my brother) just ran into the room to excitedly announce that not only had you heard of me, but that you are a Valjiir fan!  Coolness!!! I never seem to run into anyone who's heard of the series...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 21, 2013, 05:31:21 PM
It's an interesting chain of events regarding the Valjiir series. I met a Star Trek fan named Deloris Booker back in 1981, after calling the information number on a poster advertising a convention in Edmonton (not ST; the conventions in Alberta tend to have authors as guests). It was too late to arrange to attend that year, but she and I got talking... I went to the next year's convention, where I found a flyer for a fanzine called In A Different Reality. I'd been desperately wanting fanzines ever since reading about them in Star Trek Lives!, so I made contact with the IADR writers and ordered their zines. Along came the Valjiir series, and I was instantly hooked. The reason I mentioned Deloris' name is because she occasionally contributed poetry to IADR.


Fast-forward a number of years... I eventually lost contact with the IADR authors when they ceased print publishing, and it was frustrating because I knew I'd missed the last issue and had no way to find it. Many years later I got online, and years after that, found TrekBBS. As I mentioned, I just asked a question in the Fanfiction forum, hoping - but not really expecting - an answer. After all, I was one of only two people I knew who were into IADR/Valjiir.


To my surprise and delight, it was Dave Petterson who answered my question (he goes by a different name on TrekBBS). He sent me the link to the Valjiir site, and I was absolutely bowled over by how much more material has been added (and changed; some of those stories definitely wouldn't have seen print in IADR!). By now I've read most of what's there, and am completely in awe of all the talent shown in writing, artwork, and the dedication it takes to keep this going over so many years.


I love the relationship between Noel DelMonde and Jeremy Paget! I found the idea of baby Doomsday Machines really creepy and disturbing, so your story worked.


I'm not sure what you mean by a separate membergroup - do you mean a usergroup? An area of the forum that's members-only for the members of that group?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 21, 2013, 07:06:57 PM
It's an interesting chain of events regarding the Valjiir series. I met a Star Trek fan named Deloris Booker back in 1981, after calling the information number on a poster advertising a convention in Edmonton (not ST; the conventions in Alberta tend to have authors as guests). It was too late to arrange to attend that year, but she and I got talking... I went to the next year's convention, where I found a flyer for a fanzine called In A Different Reality. I'd been desperately wanting fanzines ever since reading about them in Star Trek Lives!, so I made contact with the IADR writers and ordered their zines. Along came the Valjiir series, and I was instantly hooked. The reason I mentioned Deloris' name is because she occasionally contributed poetry to IADR.


Fast-forward a number of years... I eventually lost contact with the IADR authors when they ceased print publishing, and it was frustrating because I knew I'd missed the last issue and had no way to find it. Many years later I got online, and years after that, found TrekBBS. As I mentioned, I just asked a question in the Fanfiction forum, hoping - but not really expecting - an answer. After all, I was one of only two people I knew who were into IADR/Valjiir.


To my surprise and delight, it was Dave Petterson who answered my question (he goes by a different name on TrekBBS). He sent me the link to the Valjiir site, and I was absolutely bowled over by how much more material has been added (and changed; some of those stories definitely wouldn't have seen print in IADR!). By now I've read most of what's there, and am completely in awe of all the talent shown in writing, artwork, and the dedication it takes to keep this going over so many years.


I love the relationship between Noel DelMonde and Jeremy Paget! I found the idea of baby Doomsday Machines really creepy and disturbing, so your story worked.


I'm not sure what you mean by a separate membergroup - do you mean a usergroup? An area of the forum that's members-only for the members of that group?

That's very close to my own experience. I also discovered fanzines via Star Trek Lives! IADR was one of the first 'zines I ordered.  It and Valjiir quickly became my favorite.  After the print 'zine scene began to crumble and/or migrate online in the late '90s, Valjiir was one of the titles I would google periodically in hopes that they would eventually establish a website.  There was much gleeful clapping of hands on the day I finally found it... and more when the answer to my timid "Could I possibly do some artwork for you?" was answered with a "Yes! Please!"

I'm so glad you liked the Baby Doomsday machine story! Jer and Del are particular favorites of mine to write and  yes, creeped out by the baby monsters was the reaction we were aiming for.  Buncle really contributed a lot to helping me work out the nature and structure of those critters and came up with excellent suggestions on how to defeat them.

Things have been pretty quiet on the site this summer, but Cher just posted a new story, "Midas Touch" Sunday night.  There's a new story by me called, "Kiss the Cook" that will be out as soon as she can convert it into html and I've started working on illustrations for "Old Fashioned Man."

So thrilled to meet another Valjiir fan!!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 21, 2013, 09:49:13 PM
Just a usergroup - if there was a reason to have a "Groovy all-girl world now!" private folder, that would allow me to make it visible to only the wimmin members, but my purpose here is only to replace the postcount-based rank that displays under your handle, ("Drone" until you make another post) with something Ladylike...
Ah, I see. I'm used to the terminology used on IPB forums, since all the forums I run or moderate use "usergroup." Yes, that would be nice. :)


@Mylochka: How would I go about begging for the alternate Shadow Captain stories to be finished - the ones where instead of accepting the Captaincy, Spock, Ruth, Sulu, and Jilla all resign from Starfleet and decide to search for Kirk on their own?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 21, 2013, 10:48:07 PM
Hey Valka - I've been talking to Mylochka since Sunday about what it would involve to add a comments section to the site -Cheryl misses the fan community from the 'zine days, and would like a lot more feedback- and then went on to talk about what they should really do is host a Valjiir forum, especially if they can get a sucker or two to run it for them, Cher not being the right temperament, really, and Mylochka not interested in the time and work.  Then it struck me today that you're precisely the sort of sucker they need.  A little forum could be like the good old days for Valjiir fandom in the 80's only faster and better.  Just throwing that idea out there...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 22, 2013, 01:20:28 AM
I'd be delighted! :) I have to wonder, though, if there would be enough people willing to commit to active participation on at least a semi-regular basis (just curious, since I know so few people both in RL and online who have even heard of Valjiir). Sadly, I've lost contact with all two people I ever knew offline who regularly purchased the zines or wrote for them.

It would be wonderful to have an easier way to give feedback to the authors. There are so many things I've wanted to ask for decades (literally)!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 22, 2013, 02:10:36 AM
Yes, that's something I've thought about too.  Like I said, you're the first Valjiir fan I've run into in... almost ever.  Buncle has lots of ideas for getting out and finding folks, though.

Until then, I'm happy to answer or relay questions.  Cher and I write back and forth almost every day, so I could get a quick reply.

Was the alternate story you wanted to see more of "Secret Seas"?  I liked that one too.  I'll pass along the request, if you like. Feedback really helps get her engines going. 

Now, for me, the best way to persuade her to do a story is to do some illos.  ;) For example, here's a couple pictures for a not-yet-written story about Sulu making the decision to join Star Fleet...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 22, 2013, 02:33:48 AM
Somebody really ought to tell Cher about the forum plan.  It kind of needs Dave to set it up...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 22, 2013, 03:18:15 AM
Was the alternate story you wanted to see more of "Secret Seas"?  I liked that one too.  I'll pass along the request, if you like. Feedback really helps get her engines going.
Yes! That's the one. :D I've been checking back every now and then, hoping there would be more, but alas... if you could please let her know that an old fan from 25+ years ago would really appreciate the story being finished, that would be great!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 22, 2013, 03:22:07 AM
Just emailed her!  Will let you know when I get a reply.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 22, 2013, 04:23:05 AM
In the meanwhile, you two please work out a name for the womans' usergroup - maybe something like "Power Princess" w/ the same magic lady icon Mylochka is already sporting from the GotM group?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 22, 2013, 03:01:58 PM
Cher was really thrilled to hear from you!  :clap:  Her initial reaction was, "SQUEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

She said she remembered Deloris and her poetry very well.  About the story, she said, " Ah yes, alternates....  I'll consider myself begged."

She also said, "Damn, I'm so thrilled I could just PLOTZ!  Ya think I could get in touch with her?"  So if you'd like to correspond with her directly, pm me and I'll give you an email address.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 22, 2013, 04:39:49 PM
In the meanwhile, you two please work out a name for the womans' usergroup - maybe something like "Power Princess" w/ the same magic lady icon Mylochka is already sporting from the GotM group?

I don't really have any strong preferences.  I'm sure that whatever Valka would like will be fine by me.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 22, 2013, 07:39:36 PM
Chic Geek Ladies?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 22, 2013, 07:51:14 PM
Okydoke.  On it.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 23, 2013, 05:57:00 AM
Cher was really thrilled to hear from you!  :clap:  Her initial reaction was, "SQUEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

She said she remembered Deloris and her poetry very well.  About the story, she said, " Ah yes, alternates....  I'll consider myself begged."

She also said, "Damn, I'm so thrilled I could just PLOTZ!  Ya think I could get in touch with her?"  So if you'd like to correspond with her directly, pm me and I'll give you an email address.
I'd love to!  ;woohoo

I lost contact with Deloris many years ago... she moved away to various places around Canada, and last I knew, she was running a specialty bookstore in Calgary (based on historical reference books and history, fantasy, and SF novels; she was also active in the SCA). That was back in the '90s, though, so I've no idea where she is now.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 26, 2013, 03:25:15 AM
Have been working on illustrations for the story "Old Fashioned Man"... Had a terrible time with this one.  First I had the wrong skin texture on Sorrm. .. Then the wrong uniform on Spock... Aaargh!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 03:41:23 AM
Spock looks like somebody punched him in the mouth in that picture. I have read the story (twice), but can't remember if he was in a physical fight with Sorrm or any of the other Vulcans.


Do we get to see your interpretation of Surak?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 26, 2013, 04:08:27 AM
Spock looks like somebody punched him in the mouth in that picture. I have read the story (twice), but can't remember if he was in a physical fight with Sorrm or any of the other Vulcans.


Do we get to see your interpretation of Surak?

In this one, they've had a verbal dust-up... If I'm remembering correctly, I think he gets to match lirpas with an Ancient Vulcan warrior.

Yes, I've worked on a Surak model for this one.  Here's a sneak peak!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 04:27:24 AM
Very nice!  :)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 04:28:58 AM
Likenesses are really tough to nail in Poser, but that there's Surak, all right. ;b;
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 04:42:23 AM
The outfit reminds me of a photo I saw in Star Trek Lives! of a lady who crocheted herself a Vulcan outfit. According to the book, somebody called her a "Vulcan Warrior Queen" and she was rather upset about that.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 26, 2013, 04:44:31 AM
Thank you, both!

Here he is as a stature and here's the Valjiir girls hard at work in a picture I just finished...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 26, 2013, 04:46:58 AM
The outfit reminds me of a photo I saw in Star Trek Lives! of a lady who crocheted herself a Vulcan outfit. According to the book, somebody called her a "Vulcan Warrior Queen" and she was rather upset about that.

I can see where she'd be a bit miffed... ::)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 26, 2013, 05:41:00 PM
Working on Bridge scenes for "Old Fashioned Man" today. 

For Buncle -- Here's a picture of Spock and Sulu -- DOING THEIR JOBS.. as they is their habit to do...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 05:44:19 PM
How is Chekov messing up this time?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on August 26, 2013, 06:09:56 PM
He seems to be going for the Big Red Button?  ;aaa
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 06:11:17 PM
He's turned away from his post?  Sulu's on-mission.  He always is...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 06:36:28 PM
If this is the part of the story where they discover the Klingon ship, Sulu should be wearing a kimono...  :D


Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 06:58:20 PM
AAARGH!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 07:16:23 PM
He'd been off-duty when they found the Klingon ship, and didn't have time to change before being called to the Bridge (pesky battle stations!).  ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 07:34:28 PM
Witness George Takei's remarks about chosing between rapier v. katanna in Naked Time, as told in To the Stars.  For what the opinion of the Japanese-American actor who played Sulu is worth, I daresay he'd rather Cher had put Sulu in a satin Hugh Hefner thing, just like anyone else.  I think it's a rather important point of sensitivity...


To the Stars was all kinds of awesome, BTW.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 07:52:12 PM
But in the Valjiir universe Sulu isn't gay, he's bisexual. And at this point in the timeline, he's married to Jilla.

I read To the Stars. It was a really interesting book, especially the part about how his family was treated during WWII. That sort of thing happened in Canada, too, where Japanese-Canadians were rounded up and taken to semi-arid regions of interior British Columbia and told that's where they would live.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 08:02:51 PM
Who mentioned gay?  I just think it's racially tone-deaf, given the expressed wishes of someone in the position to judge that sort of thing, to break out the kimono.  I'm not confusing the actor with the character, but I think his opinion, as someone ethnically Japanese, that he'd rather Sulu was one of the guys, not all-Japanese, all the time, ought to be respected.  That is all.


The first third of the book, set in the camp, is just the best things ever.  I told my mother to read it on the strength of that.  (I clocked him as gay from the book, BTW, noticing way too many things not said.  I wish he'd rewrite the later two thirds and re-release, given that he can talk about some stuff now.  I think it really hurt the book...)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 08:11:30 PM
Sorry, I misunderstood your post.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 08:15:07 PM
Sorry if I came off huffy.  I have a strong belief there, but no hostility directed at anyone over an understandable oversight.  (There is art of Sulu in the kimono, and I had this argument with Sis days ago already.)

You should heard me howl when I watched the '09 Abomination, and abominable HaroldSulu made with the katanna...


And hey - remember the line about karate in the Futurama episode?  I suspect that gag may have been George's idea...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 26, 2013, 08:22:55 PM
I've never seen Futurama.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2013, 08:25:56 PM
 :o










YouTube, and search for the episode where everyone still alive except Jimmy Dohan guested as themselves.  De Kelly was there anyway, but didn't have anything to say.  You must see it.  Must.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: JarlWolf on August 27, 2013, 12:04:48 AM
And isn't George Takei a Anglophile anyways? I'd think he'd be the type to sport a spiffing top hat, monocle and the like.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 27, 2013, 12:29:28 AM
George is a Los Angelino (was in city government for years), not an anglophile worthy of notice, or I'd have heard that one before, I think.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 28, 2013, 04:44:47 PM
Sulu has managed a quick-change and is back in uniform at this point:

"Before Spock could complete his sentence, the turbolift hissed twice in rapid succession; the first time disgorging Ruth, who hurried to the Science Station. When it opened once more, Sulu rushed in and went immediately to the Helm, more than a bit breathless considering Spock had seen him not ten minutes before in a kimono and the First Officer was now in uniform.

"Mr. Sulu, shields at maximum," Spock ordered, again turning the con to its forward position. "Arm phasers and photon torpedoes."

But, here he is the the kimono, whirling around to face Spock who he for a split-second mistakes for the person who is upsetting Jilla.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 28, 2013, 04:59:49 PM
There's a new story up at the site -- "Kiss the Cook" for which I am largely to blame.  It takes place between "Opera" (the new title for the story where Jade Han, Del, an Liling transfer to the Enterprise) an "At Center."  The inspiration came from a couple directions.  I'd done illustrations for both of the above and felt like there was more story to tell about Del coming to terms with Ruth's marriage and the beginnings of Sulu's affair with Li as well as the long-running flirtation between Han and Kirk.  Also, to add in a dash of the crazy, I got this idea about a cooking contest in my head.  In Anime, for some reason, the crazy cooking contest is a well-worn trope.  Even rather dark series like Kuroshitsuji will include a zany cooking contest episode.  I'm not sure why.  Even though, I usually find these episodes puzzling and goofy, I decided it would be fun to write a cooking contest for the Valjiir folks.  So  here it is, goofy and emo as all get out....
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 28, 2013, 05:24:32 PM
He'd been off-duty when they found the Klingon ship, and didn't have time to change before being called to the Bridge (pesky battle stations!).  ;)
My apologies - just reread that part of the story, and I see I hadn't read carefully enough the first time.  :-[

Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 28, 2013, 05:27:00 PM
Cher may have changed it recently.  I probably wouldn't have noticed it myself if it wasn't in my notes from her.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 28, 2013, 06:52:12 PM
Working on the title illo for "Old Fashioned Man."  Pretty happy with it, but my graphics program is slowing down to a crawl when I load my Guardian on the Edge of Forever Model.  :-\ Very with the not good considering how many illos in the second half of the story call for the Guardian to be in the background....
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 28, 2013, 06:54:43 PM
Would [feminine washing] Vulcan there happen to be a pre-reformation Vulcan from the past, by any chance?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 28, 2013, 07:01:15 PM
No, he's a Vulcan who thinks of Pre-Reform as "the good ol' days." You can imagine that this view causes some problems...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 30, 2013, 02:46:48 AM
M, two bits of Valjiir continuity housekeeping you should look into:


Chekov is not in the Valjiir timeline (neither is Uhura, I think).  Surely you're not going to let that stand.


And somebody ought to do something with my theory of ST universe gravity and starship drives.  I recently wrote it up, so:
I have a theory about artificial gravity and warp drive in that universe...
Well, it starts with the plainly observable fact that everyone's artificial gravity is insanely reliable.
Clearly, none of this is original intent, but not only is it crazy reliable, but so cheap they put it everywhere, and every. single. species. that makes it into space has it.
So I conclude this:  in the ST universe, there's stuff about how gravity works that was discovered by the mid 90's.  Khan's ship had artificial gravity, and it wasn't spinning or accelerating.  So there's a way to make, dunno, a gravity deck plating cheaply that works for a very long time with little or no power input.  Every race discovers this application of the law of gravity pretty soon after they go into space.  The same, or similar, techniques make for a nifty non-reaction gravity drive, which Starfleet calls "impulse".  A slightly more sophisticated application involving the interaction of fields from two gravity generators distorts warps space-time and makes for a nifty FTL drive.  Thus, everyone and his mother has a FTL starship with two drive pylons of some sort.  Both types of drive take a lot more juice then the deck plates because the gravity fields, by the nature of the thing, are not static, but have to expand and contract and vary in intensity.  That Warp is probably by an order of magnitude more power-hungry than Impulse naturally follows.
I came up with that ST gravity theory about six months ago, and it kinda thrills me how well it fits the observable facts, and how much sense it makes.  I can't even think of anything in fake ST that contradicts this.  I'm amazed that it was even possible in a universe so thoroughly pawed-through by so many paws for so many years with no plan - it shouldn't be possible.  I think I win the innerwebs today -when I can get on, anyway.  The making sense game can be a lot of fun.

Of course, if someone made that much sense of something in Dr Who, I'd consider myself utterly topped...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 30, 2013, 03:58:54 AM
I'm currently reading "Kiss the Cook" and wondering if Ruth will ever convince Spock to put on an apron and make something!  :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 30, 2013, 03:24:48 PM
She's certainly going to try! :D

Still working on Old Fashioned Man illos...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 31, 2013, 02:00:07 AM
FOUL!  I cry foul!

Mylochka has put a BUism into DelMonde's mouth.  Without credit.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 31, 2013, 03:26:52 AM
"Good artists borrow.  Great artists steal."
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 31, 2013, 03:46:16 AM
You are a great artist, you thief. :P
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 31, 2013, 08:27:32 PM
I read The Dragon and Saint Del last night, so a few remarks are in order.

First I should acknowledge that Valjiir is founded in a personal vision of Star Trek starting a long time ago by two ladies, and that I'm not their natural audience.  My own views inform my reaction to their Sulu, who is not my Sulu, and I think it's important that I be upfront about that - I come not to bury Caesar, y'know, though I hope my feedback is helpful anyway.

Despite my joke about days getting shorter without someone being on the planet being shamelessly stolen and put into Del's mouth, I had no actual input into, or prior knowledge of, this story.

TDaSD, and I doubt my structural insight would be obvious to someone not a writer of stories, is a relationship tale of the sort that tends to appeal more to women than men, as is appropriate to the Valjiir universe.  Mylochka's inspiration was clearly to metaphorically lock two characters in a closet and make them talk - or in this case, three characters in two interconnected closets in varying combinations.  There is nothing wrong with that, and the tale is witty and funny and quite a success.

I think -I'm not sure- that the tale would have been strengthened by one or two sentences as soon as they were stranded to the effect that it was an uninhabited planet, a point I was briefly confused about, and that all that was at stake was keeping body and soul together while waiting for certain rescue.

I like that Chekov is getting his Valjiir due here.  The business about his chatting-up technique in bars was a nice integration of the brash young man seen in, for example, I, Mudd and The Trouble with Tribbles and the uptight Spock acolyte of, for example, The Way to Eden.  Mylochka, I do have to say that you almost always write the latter, serious, Chekov, and that I'd like to see more of the side of him that was a brash, hot-headed kid who more often appeared on the show.

Chekov is a funny little fellow, too, who liked to mess with people's heads for fun.  Witness that moment in (I think it was) Fridays Child when he made another "it was a Russian inwention" remark and grinned like a possum when no one could see it as he bent back to look into Spock's science viewer.  (Reminds me of how happy you can make a dedicated punster with applause in the form of groans, verbal abuse and death threats.)  He is the sober and studious young officer you like to write, but he is also brash and ballsy and has a subtle sense of humor not incompatible with typical RL Russian sarcasm.  I see him taking a lot less of Del's crap than in this story, and far less defensively, but ready with a snarky crack.  (Note that this is not an area where I think the actor is the authority, but Walter Koenig has said that he vastly prefers the hot-headed party Pavel.)  Spock's sidekick, sure, but with brass and droll wit.  He is someone who terrible things happen to, canonically, and we saw typically Russian pessimism from him on the show sometimes (The Deadly Years); work those things in, and give us a richer, deeper Chekov.  Thank you in advance.

So, very nice story, nice enough that I won't complain about "the dark power in the helmsman’s mind".  You've done very well, as I've come to expect from you.


Forum Note: if you need to mention Walter Koenig, be sure to structure your sentence so as to punctuate Koenig, or you will trigger my least-favorite entry in the swear filter and embarrass yourself.  There's a slur I'm going to remove from the filter the next time I have to roll up my sleeves and mess with the thing; I'll just have to take care of it if anyone ever uses that one as a slur.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 31, 2013, 10:18:57 PM
Quote
Forum Note: if you need to mention Walter Koenig, be sure to structure your sentence so as to punctuate Koenig, or you will trigger my least favorite entry in the swear filter, and embarrass yourself.  There's a slur I'm going to remove from the filter the next time I have to roll up my sleeves and mess with the thing; I've just have to take care of it if anyone ever uses that one as a slur.
I don't understand...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 31, 2013, 10:24:44 PM
The last three letters...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 31, 2013, 10:33:39 PM
-And following on from previous:  as I mentioned in analog, one could handwave (well) much of the absence of the brash side of Chekov from previous works by establishing that Starfleet Academy, like RL officers' candidate schools really do sometimes, teaches that "Fortune favors the bold."  Even if he is as serious as you've always portrayed, I submit that perhaps he wants to impress senior officers who are not Spock with his courage, having reasoned that they will assume they can teach a brave young man wisdom, but not courage.

I still urge some revision of the thinking in future works, but ^that.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 31, 2013, 10:42:40 PM
I read The Dragon and Saint Del last night, so a few remarks are in order.

First I should acknowledge that Valjiir is founded in a personal vision of Star Trek starting a long time ago by two ladies, and that I'm not their natural audience.  My own views inform my reaction to their Sulu, who is not my Sulu, and I think it's important that I be upfront about that - I come not to bury Caesar, y'know, though I hope my feedback is helpful anyway.

Despite my joke about days getting shorter without someone being on the planet being shamelessly stolen and put into Del's mouth, I had no actual input into, or prior knowledge of, this story.

TDaSD, and I doubt my structural insight would be obvious to someone not a writer of stories, is a relationship tale of the sort that tends to appeal more to women than men, as is appropriate to the Valjiir universe.  Mylochka's inspiration was clearly to metaphorically lock two characters in a closet and make them talk - or in this case, three characters in two interconnected closets in varying combinations.  There is nothing wrong with that, and the tale is witty and funny and quite a success.

I think -I'm not sure- that the tale would have been strengthened by one or two sentences as soon as they were stranded to the effect that it was an uninhabited planet, a point I was briefly confused about, and that all that was at stake was keeping body and soul together while waiting for certain rescue.


Thanks for your comments -- even though I know that this sort of romance-type fanfic is not usually your cup of tea.

You've made a valid point here.  Looking back I can see that I've failed to include some exposition in the narrative.  The lack of a few sentences explaining that they were able to find an uninhabited planet (which is pretty lucky...or perhaps this test run was purposefully routed through an area peppered with uninhabited planets that had been star-charted but not explored just in case they did need to crash land) and that the ship knew roughly where they were supposed to be and would be alert to any interruption of signal from them inadvertently has DelMonde acting a little out of character, doesn't it?  As a person who's not just an engineer by profession but a dedicated tinkerer by disposition, without an explanation that he's anticipating that the ship will be there to pick them up within hours, it's puzzling that he doesn't even try to fix the shuttle at all, isn't it?  Won't even try to fix the homing beacon...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 31, 2013, 10:55:47 PM
The last three letters...
Ah. That's not a word we run into very often in Canada, at least not within the last few generations. I had to firmly tell my grandmother to stop reciting a rhyme that included it because even though it might have been okay when she was young, it's definitely not okay now.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 31, 2013, 11:08:38 PM
I read The Dragon and Saint Del last night, so a few remarks are in order.
I like that Chekov is getting his Valjiir due here.  The business about his chatting-up technique in bars was a nice integration of the brash young man seen in, for example, I, Mudd and The Trouble with Tribbles and the uptight Spock acolyte of, for example, The Way to Eden.  Mylochka, I do have to say that you almost always write the latter, serious, Chekov, and that I'd like to see more of the side of him that was a brash, hot-headed kid who more often appeared on the show.

Chekov is a funny little fellow, too, who liked to mess with people's heads for fun.  Witness that moment in (I think it was) Fridays Child when he made another "it was a Russian inwention" remark and grinned like a possum when no one could see it as he bent back to look into Spock's science viewer.  (Reminds me of how happy you can make a dedicated punster with applause in the form of groans, verbal abuse and death threats.)  He is the sober and studious young officer you like to write, but he is also brash and ballsy and has a subtle sense of humor not incompatible with typical RL Russian sarcasm.  I see him taking a lot less of Del's crap than in this story, and far less defensively, but ready with a snarky crack.  (Note that this is not an area where I think the actor is the authority, but Walter Koenig has said that he vastly prefers the hot-headed party Pavel.)  Spock's sidekick, sure, but with brass and droll wit.  He is someone who terrible things happen to, canonically, and we saw typically Russian pessimism from him on the show sometimes (The Deadly Years); work those things in, and give us a richer, deeper Chekov.  Thank you in advance.

I'm glad you're enjoying Chekov in this one.  As you know, I really love writing this character. I've always been grateful that he was such an unimportant character to the writers of the series and the movies that they didn't catch that they were writing him so inconsistently.  The result is that rather than just being a boring, one-dimensional background character, he's a background character who is sometimes nose-to-the-grindstone I-wanna-grow-up-to-be-Admiral-James-T-Spock and sometimes Mr.-Russian-Jokes-drink-vodka-and-chase-girls. Between those two extremes, there's a lot of room for a fanfic writer to speculate. 

This particular story doesn't show his pessimistic side, no.  I've written others where that aspect of his personality came out more, but in general, I do think he tends to be pretty positive in the long run -- particularly about all things Star Fleet.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 31, 2013, 11:46:15 PM
You totally do pessimistic - just not so much with the brash.

The movies would have done him a greater disservice by leaving him out entirely like the cartoon did, but that is about what it would take.  The man was supposed to, in original concept and leaving out Davy Jones, be a young Kirk-type who would grow up to be Kirk.  (And young Kirk was indeed "positively grim" as established in both Shore Leave and Where No Man Has Gone Before, but the Kirk we knew was a big gambler ["Risk is our Business." -Return to Tomorrow] who you just know had a brash streak under the grim in his youth.  Still waters run deep.)  The P.C. in the movies wasn't a Captain, when he should have been maybe a Commodore by TUC, which is yet another reason that in my universe nothing happened after WoK.

You know, there's a very Valjiir idea in there when you run together the openness Del finds in Chekov's mind and the fact that terrible things always happen to him that make him scream.  Perhaps there is something special about our boy Pavel, and none of that is a coincidence, but some paranormal factor involving the universe needing him to grow to be something, and that something involves vulnerability and learning from same.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 01, 2013, 07:19:26 AM
Mylochka, I play around on the Zwinky site sometimes, and came up with this homage to Jilla (when she and Sulu were playing Good Queen Bess and Sir Francis Drake). I realize I didn't get the skin color quite right, but that site doesn't allow color mixing for skin tones:


Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 01, 2013, 07:30:26 AM
Would you like me to take a pass at silvering her skin?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 01, 2013, 07:54:28 AM
Yes, please. :)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 01, 2013, 09:11:21 AM
Well, I took a run at it.  Mylochka can probably do better, having a superior hand with the dodge/burn tool.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 01, 2013, 04:04:31 PM
Oh, my gosh!  That is just too adorable for words!!  :clap: Nice job of enhancing the silver tones, Buncle! :win:

You should send this to Cher.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 01, 2013, 04:49:32 PM
Okay, here's my two pixels worth....
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 01, 2013, 06:06:22 PM
Beautiful!  :clap:
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 01, 2013, 07:05:39 PM

You know, there's a very Valjiir idea in there when you run together the openness Del finds in Chekov's mind and the fact that terrible things always happen to him that make him scream.  Perhaps there is something special about our boy Pavel, and none of that is a coincidence, but some paranormal factor involving the universe needing him to grow to be something, and that something involves vulnerability and learning from same.

Well, actually, we've done some thinking about that... sort of... Before I started writing, it was established that Del and Chekov were roommates at the Academy and then again shared a cabin during the time that Del was on the Enterprise.  I was intrigued by this because the two of them have such different personalities (... as well as because I really like Del and I really like Chekov...).  Although Chekov dates Daphne Gollub (who is a Valjiir original character) and plays a small part in many of the stories, he was still a very minor player in the Valjiir series, so I felt free to flesh out his character.  One thing that I stressed in the first stories that I wrote was that -- as a complete contrast to Del -- he had zero extrasensory abilities.

Cher made an observation one day about 0% being just the other side of the coin from 100% and that got us to thinking about the possibilities of what being a absolute psychic null might entail.  We posit that almost everyone has a little bit of some sort of ability to read the energetic emanations that other people send out -- flashes of insight, intuition, and empathy.  From that stand point, a person who can't sense anything at all ever becomes an exotic creature... And you know how much we love exotic creatures in the Valjiir world....

There's a story that I wrote later that comes earlier in the continuity that deals with this sort of stuff that I'd like to hear your views on.... I'll have to dig around for it a little...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 01, 2013, 10:06:48 PM
(http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4177.0;attach=6635)

Lovely job with her chest.  I highlighted there, but yours is far more accomplished.  It may be my rotten eyesight, but did you do much of anything else?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 01, 2013, 10:23:45 PM
You totally do pessimistic - just not so much with the brash.

The movies would have done him a greater disservice by leaving him out entirely like the cartoon did, but that is about what it would take.  The man was supposed to, in original concept and leaving out Davy Jones, be a young Kirk-type who would grow up to be Kirk.  (And young Kirk was indeed "positively grim" as established in both Shore Leave and Where No Man Has Gone Before, but the Kirk we knew was a big gambler ["Risk is our Business." -Return to Tomorrow] who you just know had a brash streak under the grim in his youth.  Still waters run deep.)  The P.C. in the movies wasn't a Captain, when he should have been maybe a Commodore by TUC, which is yet another reason that in my universe nothing happened after WoK.

Sorry for responding in two posts, but I needed some time to think about the "brash" thing.  You're absolutely right that this is an essential part of the character.  He not only enthusiastically performs his own duties; he frequently offers to do other people's jobs as well (even offering to help Kirk give Lt. Palamas a "you gotta dump Apollo" speech in his very first appearance).  In the Abramstrek movies, they've got the character boiled down to someone who literally runs down corridors yelling, "I can do that!" So, yeah, brash is something that stands out to people when they see Chekov.

You and I -- in conversations where we actually spoke to each other rather than writing messages from different rooms of the same house -- have talked about how Chekov is one of the several successors to Gary Mitchell, whose brashness was in part the death of him... (You can go more into the Gary Mitchell think if you want to)

What I had to think about is how I'm not writing "brash"... In "The Dragon and St. Del" Chekov is certainly active.  He is perhaps the most active character in the entire piece -- trying to fix the shuttle, diving out of the shuttlecraft to avoid being eaten, showing off his marksman skills, but no, you're right, he doesn't seem brash.

I think I personally am put off by the dumb, tone-deaf qualities of brash characters... although that would certainly go along with what I've been saying about his lack of empathy.  I think I do show him as being over-confident, but it's a very quiet sort of arrogance as in the following passage:

“Got it,” Chekov said, making the sort of big, showy arc with his arm as he took a bead on his target that people quickly learn not to do when there was even a slight chance that they might miss.

“Yeah.” Del leveled his weapon with the sort of movement preferred by normal mortals.

I'll have to think more about Chekov's brashness and ways to work it in.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 01, 2013, 10:27:25 PM
Ah.  This is a central point I don't think you've ever made before - the brash kid is a dumbutt, and that leaves you cold.  Interesting.

You need to reconcile the dumbutt in your head, clearly...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 01, 2013, 10:28:44 PM
([url]http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4177.0;attach=6635[/url])

Lovely job with her chest.  I highlighted there, but yours is far more accomplished.  It may be my rotten eyesight, but did you do much of anything else?


Instead of just using the dodge tool, I also used the smudge tool to soften the lines.  I lightened inside the irises to make her eyes look more grey. I changed the shape of her lips a little, then highlighted her hair and added a little more saturation to it. I highlighted areas on the dress and added some "twinkles" to the areas where she's got jewelry to make them stand out more.

Put your glasses on. It looks nice!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 01, 2013, 10:31:11 PM
Ah.  This is a central point I don't think you've ever made before - the brash kid is a dumbutt, and that leaves you cold.  Interesting.

You need to reconcile the dumbutt in your head, clearly...

Yeah, that's it exactly.  I don't like the dumbutt aspects of the brash kid character.  I guess I soften those edges.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 01, 2013, 10:32:21 PM
([url]http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4177.0;attach=6635[/url])

Lovely job with her chest.  I highlighted there, but yours is far more accomplished.  It may be my rotten eyesight, but did you do much of anything else?


Instead of just using the dodge tool, I also used the smudge tool to soften the lines.  I lightened inside the irises to make her eyes look more grey. I changed the shape of her lips a little, then highlighted her hair and added a little more saturation to it. I highlighted areas on the dress and added some "twinkles" to the areas where she's got jewelry to make them stand out more.

Put your glasses on. It looks nice!
It does.  I can see the changes once you point them out, and you've added a lot of depth. ;b;
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 01, 2013, 10:36:48 PM
This improved Jilla is gorgeous!

I just had a look there to see if I could flange up anything that would look remotely like Ruth, but can't even get past the skin tone. They don't have anything there that's right! My attempts kept coming out too brown or too yellow, or too orange...

There wouldn't be a problem with costuming, though... lots of choices of halters and shorts on that site!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 01, 2013, 10:40:30 PM
I can fix the colors. Go ahead and try a Ruth picture.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 01, 2013, 10:42:35 PM
Here's a couple pictures of the girls from me...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 02, 2013, 05:25:10 AM
Still working on "Old Fashioned Man" -- Look out, Surak!  There's a crazy Vulcan behind you!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 02, 2013, 08:33:14 PM
Before I can go any further with my "Old Fashioned Man" illustrations, I had to stop this morning and figure out how to costume some Non-Reformed Vulcan Clan Warriors.  The description in the story is as follows:

"They were dressed in body armor of a deep green color that moved with them like a second skin. Helms of the same color covered their heads. Each wore a brightly colored sash of copper that seemed somehow incongruous with the rest of the uniform: it was an obvious place for someone to grab. There was a long strip of leather coiled about each figures' left forearm, and each carried a long pole weapon with a curving, crescent blade on one end, and a heavy cudgel on the other. Wide, metallic-looking cuffs, like ancient Terran Medieval greaves, covered their forearms, and carried a device that could be weapon, communicator, recorder or something else entirely. They stood, surveying the landscape for only a moment, then one, the obvious leader, signaled and the helms were drawn back. They hung from the collars of the armor like hoods. Hair that was below shoulder-length, braided, and black as night was revealed - as well as upswept eyebrows, olive skin and curving, pointed ears."

I haven't got the greaves or the hood, but here's my version of the body armor.  What do you think?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 02, 2013, 08:36:41 PM
I think it looks great - too great, not like armor.  This may not be a problem in a Valjiir story by and for women, though.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 02, 2013, 08:54:58 PM
Just a comment about the text - and this is something that occurred to me the first time I read the story - greaves are worn on the legs, not the arms. Medieval and classical-era fighters wore bracers on their arms, and the two are not interchangeable.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 02, 2013, 10:28:46 PM
Here is my Zwinky attempt at Ruth (yes, I realize her guitar seems to be floating in midair):


Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 02, 2013, 10:31:16 PM
Yep.  You're right about the greaves.  I'll pass the correction along...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 02, 2013, 10:33:01 PM
Very cute!   :D  Let me see if I can add a strap for that guitar...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 02, 2013, 11:30:53 PM
How's this?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 02, 2013, 11:33:48 PM
 :clap:

What about that other thing I suggested?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 02, 2013, 11:37:55 PM
How's this?
Beautiful!  :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 03, 2013, 04:19:56 PM
New story up on the site today!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 03, 2013, 04:24:56 PM
No link?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 03, 2013, 04:35:15 PM
The site is set up so that you can't link directly to stories.  So you just have to go to the main page (as is listed in my sig).
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 03, 2013, 04:37:15 PM
I'm not magic, there's nothing announcing a new post, and you gave no title.

Also, right-click on the background>Properties>copy/paste the address that shows there, like so:
http://www.valjiir.us/logicsend.html (http://www.valjiir.us/logicsend.html)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 03, 2013, 04:50:38 PM
Works differently with Firefox apparently:

Amazed (http://www.valjiir.us/amazed.html)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 03, 2013, 06:35:24 PM
Petterson's is someone's writer alias?  ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 03, 2013, 06:50:25 PM
No.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 03, 2013, 08:10:50 PM
Mylochka, there seems to be a technical glitch. I see all the quotations marks and apostrophes rendered as question marks.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 03, 2013, 08:16:27 PM
That happens some times... I'm not sure why.  I'm using Firefox and I don't see it. 

I'll write Cher.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 03, 2013, 08:18:31 PM
I use Firefox too.  ???
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 03, 2013, 08:23:53 PM
It's displaying fine for me in IE 10 and Chrome 29.0.1547.62 m.  Dave will need your version #s to troubleshoot.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 04, 2013, 09:08:42 PM
Still working on "Old Fashioned Man."

Spock and Sulu are caught in a sandstorm.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: JarlWolf on September 05, 2013, 02:38:28 AM
Now that is pretty cool.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 05, 2013, 07:23:01 PM
Thanks!  this one was actually quite a challenge.  The graphics program I use renders scenes very smooth and clear.  I had to figure out how to add the "sand" and "storm" in Photoshop.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 07, 2013, 07:06:35 PM
Cher has started posting all the picture I've done for The Old Fashioned Man  (http://www.valjiir.us/oldfashionedman.html)

Here's one that's not up yet.  Poor Jilla is awake and worrying about stuff and things... Poor thing!

At BU's strong suggestion, I created a new texture for the blanket that should be a lot closer to what was shown in the series.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 07, 2013, 07:16:12 PM
As I said, did some research at BU's insistence and improved my TOS bedsheet texture.  Was able to find a .jpeg file of one of the sheets from the original and create a seamless tile from it.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 07, 2013, 07:28:07 PM
Bedsheets?  ;lol
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 07, 2013, 07:52:35 PM
You never noticed the funky red-with-gold-highlights space sheets on Star Trek?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 07, 2013, 08:27:12 PM
I had to think of the poem phrase attached.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 09, 2013, 06:07:52 AM
Valka - I just figured out how to do animations in Photoshop and decided to turn your images into animated .gifs.  Nothing fancy, but pretty cool, huh?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 09, 2013, 06:13:43 AM
Oops... had some stray pixels on the Ruth smilie... Let me try again...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 06:23:14 AM
W/o background...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 09, 2013, 06:26:04 AM
 8) Nice work!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 09, 2013, 06:27:33 AM
Wow, those are beautiful! Ruth still has some odd pixels showing on the Enterprise skin, though.

BTW, I've made Uhura and Daffy Zwinkies, too.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 06:54:23 AM
Cleaned up...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 09, 2013, 04:56:32 PM

BTW, I've made Uhura and Daffy Zwinkies, too.

I'd love to see them!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 09, 2013, 04:57:07 PM
Cleaned up...

Now that looks good! Thanks! :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 09, 2013, 04:59:58 PM
Perhaps we should ask Yitzi to let SMACX accept .gif files? Imagine Deedee batting her eyes at you (the player) during negotiations. Or Lal making a fist.  ;lol
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 05:01:23 PM
I wonder how fundamental a change to the code that would take...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 09, 2013, 05:03:09 PM
I wonder how fundamental a change to the code that would take...

One way to find out
/me pushes BU towards a patch thread
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 09, 2013, 05:04:33 PM
no, u.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 15, 2013, 01:47:46 AM
I continue to work though illustrations for "Old Fashioned Man."  Here Spock travels back to Vulcan's past to do historical research and is dismayed by the barbarism of  Pre-Surakian Vulcans.

Cher has posted a new, Drake-era vignette called "Scourges of the World." http://www.valjiir.us/scourge.html (http://www.valjiir.us/scourge.html)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 15, 2013, 01:58:58 AM

BTW, I've made Uhura and Daffy Zwinkies, too.

I'd love to see them!

Here's Uhura, as I imagined her on shore leave on some lovely planet...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 15, 2013, 02:12:51 AM
Very cute!

While I'm on the computer where these files are... Did you see the new pictures I did for "Film at 11"?

It's a story about the crew of the Enterprise having to wade their way through a press frenzy at the end of the "Shadow Captain" series of stories in which Kirk is abducted and Spock becomes captain.

I had a lot of fun coming up with cheezy, tabloid-style captions for some of the pictures.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 15, 2013, 02:15:35 AM
and a couple more...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 15, 2013, 03:28:43 AM

BTW, I've made Uhura and Daffy Zwinkies, too.

I'd love to see them!

Here's Uhura, as I imagined her on shore leave on some lovely planet...

Here's my tweaked version.  These are so cute!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 15, 2013, 03:40:16 AM
 :clap:
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: JarlWolf on September 15, 2013, 03:48:57 AM
Uhura is already cute to begin with though, so its not too much of a surprise  :-[
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 16, 2013, 02:29:15 AM
Hey, I just saw this picture on DA http://www.deviantart.com/art/Star-Trek-Beyond-Antares-400428552 (http://www.deviantart.com/art/Star-Trek-Beyond-Antares-400428552) that has Uhura in almost the same dress!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 16, 2013, 11:29:34 AM
Poor Spock, he's being Romeo'd!  ;lol
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 20, 2013, 05:50:53 PM
All right, took long time for the happily ever after train to pull into the station on this one, but I think I've finally finished all the illos for "Old Fashioned Man."  Should be up on the site in about...now.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 20, 2013, 05:58:03 PM
This was a particularly challenging story to illustrate.  In the scenes where the Non-Reformed Vulcan warriors were present, there were so many shots that called for 7 or 8 characters to be in the frame.  Then there was supposed to be dirt on some character's clothes and later tears in the fabric and blood... Not to mention special effects for people entering or exiting the Guardian of Forever, or as in this one, using an unfamiliar transporter device... Whew!  The next story I work on is going to have to consist primarily of just scenes of people sitting still all alone in their cabins thinking quietly...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 20, 2013, 06:00:22 PM
These are amazing!  ;b;
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 20, 2013, 06:00:32 PM
Why are the womenz on their knees?  :P
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 20, 2013, 06:07:10 PM
'Cause the Old-Fashioned Man's cohorts wanted them that way.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: JarlWolf on September 20, 2013, 06:09:19 PM
Is there somewhere I could read this story in order? I would like to read it/see it.

Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 20, 2013, 06:18:12 PM
www.valjiir.us/oldfashionedman.html (http://www.valjiir.us/oldfashionedman.html)


Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: JarlWolf on September 20, 2013, 06:20:34 PM
spasibo tovarish!  :D

Reading...  :read:
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 20, 2013, 09:23:11 PM
What is Valjiir exactly? A sort of working melt of an empath and a logician?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 20, 2013, 09:25:00 PM
It runs together the last names, or something, of Ruth and Jiila, the central fan characters in the series...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 20, 2013, 09:25:41 PM
Oh.  :-[
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 20, 2013, 09:53:27 PM
The main characters are Ruth Valley and Jilla Majiir. Valjiir. Ruth is a computer expert, Jilla is an engineer, and they have a sort of telepathic-empathic bond that lets them communicate in half-sentences and make perfect sense to each other.

And depending on how you look at it, they're both sorta bonded to Spock, although Ruth is the one legally married to him, and Jilla is also bonded to Sulu.

It sounds confusing, but they get it worked out in the end. :)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: JarlWolf on September 21, 2013, 12:15:38 AM
Reading this... this is brilliant. I expected what Surrm was going to do... but still the fact of seeing it happen  :o

Men like Surrm, that exceeding arrogance and pompousness, coupled with... his social mindset (especially to the other gender) is the type of men in Afghanistan that mysteriously, and brutally seemed to die under my supervision. I have very little respect for that barbaric philosophy, me being a passionate man and one who follows a more equity focused mindset...

Edit: Though.. I will say Colar is much more noble  then me. Edit 2: And telekinetic to boot and with much more self control.  ;lol
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 21, 2013, 02:21:32 AM
I'm glad you enjoyed the story.  :)  I'll convey your compliments to the author.

Yes, Sorrm is very nasty customer.  He's lucky Colar was there to keep him from getting the retribution his actions merited....
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: JarlWolf on September 21, 2013, 02:45:16 AM
I wonder how she will react when you tell her, "Hey, an old, grizzled ex-soviet military man likes your stories."

 ;lol

Thought amused me. I doubt its really relevant though, t'was a fun read.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 21, 2013, 09:50:26 AM
I'm glad you enjoyed the story.  :)  I'll convey your compliments to the author.

He's lucky Colar was there to keep him from getting the retribution his actions merited....

Spoiler alert!  :mad:
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 22, 2013, 12:58:18 AM
oops... Hey, well, he might get away, you never know...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 29, 2013, 04:30:43 AM
Have been sick this week, but am starting work on illustrations for "The Percentage."

Among the things I have to create before I can start rendering images -- an emblem for the uniforms of the crew of the S.S. Pocahontas.  Here's what I've come up with.  Look plausible?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 29, 2013, 04:43:03 AM
I wouldn't know about the emblem, but I've always enjoyed this story!  :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 29, 2013, 10:38:31 AM
It looks... leafy.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 29, 2013, 06:24:45 PM
It's a feather, not a leaf.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: JarlWolf on September 30, 2013, 01:01:29 AM
I think it's because of the greenish/yellow tinge.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 30, 2013, 11:27:35 AM
Especially since its Fall seasln now.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 02, 2013, 04:17:56 PM
I wonder how she will react when you tell her, "Hey, an old, grizzled ex-soviet military man likes your stories."

 ;lol

Thought amused me. I doubt its really relevant though, t'was a fun read.

She is quite pleased and flattered, thank you! Hello, all, this is Cher, one of the original creators of Valjiir here, and I thank you for visiting the site.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 02, 2013, 04:43:48 PM
Just a comment about the text - and this is something that occurred to me the first time I read the story - greaves are worn on the legs, not the arms. Medieval and classical-era fighters wore bracers on their arms, and the two are not interchangeable.

This is an OOPS! on my part.  I was on a writing tear and couldn't think of the proper word so I put a place-holder in - and then forgot to go back and change it.  Shame on me.  Thanks for catching it so I can go back now and change it.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 02, 2013, 07:23:16 PM
So Cher - any thoughts/preferences about usergroup/custom title?  You can have one or both...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on October 02, 2013, 07:41:27 PM
Just a comment about the text - and this is something that occurred to me the first time I read the story - greaves are worn on the legs, not the arms. Medieval and classical-era fighters wore bracers on their arms, and the two are not interchangeable.

This is an OOPS! on my part.  I was on a writing tear and couldn't think of the proper word so I put a place-holder in - and then forgot to go back and change it.  Shame on me.  Thanks for catching it so I can go back now and change it.
No problem. :)

It's just that since I spent over a decade in the Society for Creative Anachronism and took classical history in college, it's something I noticed.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 03, 2013, 01:51:08 AM
Hey, Dave (my husband) and I were in the SCA - about 40 years ago - so yeah, I DID know better.  Mea culpa.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 03, 2013, 01:54:21 AM
So Cher - any thoughts/preferences about usergroup/custom title?  You can have one or both...

Sure - like what are they? Remember, I'm something of a Luddite....  Wait, you suggested Valjiir Creator, yeah?  I kinda like that one...  :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 03, 2013, 02:04:45 AM
Who mentioned gay?  I just think it's racially tone-deaf, given the expressed wishes of someone in the position to judge that sort of thing, to break out the kimono.  I'm not confusing the actor with the character, but I think his opinion, as someone ethnically Japanese, that he'd rather Sulu was one of the guys, not all-Japanese, all the time, ought to be respected.  That is all.

Ah, but racially tone-deaf to whom?  The Sulu in my 'verse is VERY proud of his Japanese heritage (not to much the part that's Korean, but.... ;) )  And also, remember Mr. Takei grew up in a time (1940s and early 50s) where Americans were supposed to embrace the melting pot, not celebrate the differences in culture, such as was encouraged when I was growing up (1960s, early 70s).  And I think that my Sulu IS very much 'one of the guys' despite how he chooses to dress when relaxing at home.  If you can show me where this isn't true, I'd be happy to listen.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 03, 2013, 02:08:25 AM
You should heard me howl when I watched the '09 Abomination, and abominable HaroldSulu made with the katanna...

ABOMINATION????  Them's fightin' words, son!  What exactly made the marvelous reboot an abomination?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on October 03, 2013, 02:30:17 AM
You should heard me howl when I watched the '09 Abomination, and abominable HaroldSulu made with the katanna...

ABOMINATION? ???  Them's fightin' words, son!  What exactly made the marvelous reboot an abomination?
Basically, I hate the plot, I hate the actors (they look like models and can't act), I hate the nonsense of Chekov being a child-genius, I just hate the whole thing. And I do my nuTrek arguing at TrekBBS, since I know my opinions aren't shared by a lot of people and the discussion can get rather heated.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 03, 2013, 03:00:24 AM
What she said - and since we're talking Sulu, they especially lost me when Harold/Sulu made with the Katanna.  Perhaps nobody at Bad Robot read To the Stars, but I have, several times.

Who mentioned gay?  I just think it's racially tone-deaf, given the expressed wishes of someone in the position to judge that sort of thing, to break out the kimono.  I'm not confusing the actor with the character, but I think his opinion, as someone ethnically Japanese, that he'd rather Sulu was one of the guys, not all-Japanese, all the time, ought to be respected.  That is all.

Ah, but racially tone-deaf to whom?  The Sulu in my 'verse is VERY proud of his Japanese heritage (not to much the part that's Korean, but.... ;) )  And also, remember Mr. Takei grew up in a time (1940s and early 50s) where Americans were supposed to embrace the melting pot, not celebrate the differences in culture, such as was encouraged when I was growing up (1960s, early 70s).  And I think that my Sulu IS very much 'one of the guys' despite how he chooses to dress when relaxing at home.  If you can show me where this isn't true, I'd be happy to listen.
On your side, there's the simple fact that Sulu, in cannon, gives you a lot of room for creative detail.  All we really know for sure from the show is that he's amiable, patient about taking an endless series of punk navigators in-hand, is so focused when on-duty that I'd venture to say that he's the most reliable man Kirk has on the bridge after Spock, and there's hints that he has a wide range of hobbies/interests and would secretly like to be D'artagnan.

It's not nothing, but hardly the entire measure of a fully-realized human being who must have had parents and a life before Starfleet.  So canonically, you have a lot of freedom there without contradicting anything, and I'm only citing a RL source.  I haven't the foggiest how strongly George would feel about the bathrobe, probably not very, and only guess that he would choose otherwise...  Being whiter than white, myself, I think being careful maters.  No big deal, though.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on October 03, 2013, 05:08:35 AM
Did they say Sulu's first name is HAROLD???
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 03, 2013, 05:23:23 AM
No; he was played by Harold from Harold and Kumar go to Whitecastle.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on October 03, 2013, 05:32:50 AM
I have no idea what that's about (I don't watch many movies anymore), but it's good to know they didn't give nuSulu a stupid name.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 03, 2013, 08:08:07 AM
No; he was played by Harold from Harold and Kumar go to Whitecastle.

No, he was played by John Cho - who also played Harold from etc.  :P
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on October 03, 2013, 04:11:31 PM
Hi, pal! 

Still not feeling good, but I did manage to get a little work done last night towards starting illustrations for "The Percentage."  Here is the crew (well, all of the crew we're going to see in the illos for this story, at least...) of the Scout Ship Pocahontas.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 03, 2013, 05:35:16 PM
Lookin' good, sweets!  Feel better soon!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 03, 2013, 05:36:27 PM
I have no idea what that's about (I don't watch many movies anymore), but it's good to know they didn't give nuSulu a stupid name.

The name they use is the same as the Trek movies - Hikaru Sulu. Just FYI  :)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on October 03, 2013, 06:33:59 PM
I saw the 2009 movie on TV, just once. It confirmed my opinion based on all the previews and spoilers I saw at TrekBBS, and I haven't been able to force myself to watch it again. I honestly never even registered Sulu's presence in the movie, since I found everything else so appalling.

Good to know he got to keep his real name, though.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 03, 2013, 11:42:24 PM
My Sulu would argue with that.  ;lol He'd say HIS real name is Takeda Sulu no Jiru
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: JarlWolf on October 03, 2013, 11:44:46 PM
Of course, your Sulu also lives in a separate universe to the normal Star Trek, so things can be and are different.
(Not that that is a bad thing.)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on October 03, 2013, 11:48:03 PM
Alternate universes.  ;)

Back in the '80s, I was at a convention in Calgary, where someone had placed a flyer for IADR. A woman was there looking at it, and absolutely fuming and OUTRAGED that Spock would marry anyone, let alone his assistant Science Officer!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: JarlWolf on October 04, 2013, 12:01:27 AM
Alternate universes.  ;)

Back in the '80s, I was at a convention in Calgary, where someone had placed a flyer for IADR. A woman was there looking at it, and absolutely fuming and OUTRAGED that Spock would marry anyone, let alone his assistant Science Officer!


That's because she is point case and blank, an overzealous nerd who doesn't like a bit of creative change for what is essentially fan fiction. Now, if it was modifying the entire mainstream version of it I can understand that thinking... but its not doing that so, unwarranted.  ;lol

I have yet to brush up on the other stories of Valjiir, but I can tell you that I liked Old Fashioned Men, seemed a good story overall.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 04, 2013, 01:30:06 AM
Of course, your Sulu also lives in a separate universe to the normal Star Trek, so things can be and are different.
(Not that that is a bad thing.)

I'm glad you think that way.  :D I've run into any number of fans who don't.  And incidentally, that's one of the reasons I DO like the reboot - they make it clear from the first five minutes that this is an alternate reality - and I'm all for alternate realities ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: JarlWolf on October 04, 2013, 01:33:25 AM
If people didn't modify and change ideas over time, we'd still be stuck in the stone age.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 04, 2013, 01:37:17 AM
Alternate universes.  ;)

Back in the '80s, I was at a convention in Calgary, where someone had placed a flyer for IADR. A woman was there looking at it, and absolutely fuming and OUTRAGED that Spock would marry anyone, let alone his assistant Science Officer!

At a convention in the early 80s, IADR was at (and no, I can't remember which one - blame senioritis *grin* ) I gave Mr. Takei a teal-colored T-shirt with "Don't Call Me Tiny!"  on it.  I got a hug and a kiss for my trouble  :D  Later on, he sought out the IADR table and signed a copy of #17 (which features a picture of Sulu and Jilla) for me.  I was absolutely thrilled.

And yeah, we caught some flak for daring to have marry Spock at all - and most of those wanted him to be paired with Jim. *shrug* Ah, K/S ers....
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 04, 2013, 01:38:31 AM
If people didn't modify and change ideas over time, we'd still be stuck in the stone age.

Indeed.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 04, 2013, 01:39:44 AM
Alternate universes.  ;)

Back in the '80s, I was at a convention in Calgary, where someone had placed a flyer for IADR. A woman was there looking at it, and absolutely fuming and OUTRAGED that Spock would marry anyone, let alone his assistant Science Officer!


That's because she is point case and blank, an overzealous nerd who doesn't like a bit of creative change for what is essentially fan fiction. Now, if it was modifying the entire mainstream version of it I can understand that thinking... but its not doing that so, unwarranted.  ;lol


I have yet to brush up on the other stories of Valjiir, but I can tell you that I liked Old Fashioned Men, seemed a good story overall.

Thank you!  I do hope you find other stories enjoyable as well.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on October 04, 2013, 05:20:27 AM
Alternate universes.  ;)

Back in the '80s, I was at a convention in Calgary, where someone had placed a flyer for IADR. A woman was there looking at it, and absolutely fuming and OUTRAGED that Spock would marry anyone, let alone his assistant Science Officer!

At a convention in the early 80s, IADR was at (and no, I can't remember which one - blame senioritis *grin* ) I gave Mr. Takei a teal-colored T-shirt with "Don't Call Me Tiny!"  on it.  I got a hug and a kiss for my trouble  :D  Later on, he sought out the IADR table and signed a copy of #17 (which features a picture of Sulu and Jilla) for me.  I was absolutely thrilled.

And yeah, we caught some flak for daring to have marry Spock at all - and most of those wanted him to be paired with Jim. *shrug* Ah, K/S ers....
Well, anyone but T'Pring, right?  ;)

As for K/S... I remember when Alternaties came out... I ordered both issues, and then had to wait in suspense to see if Canada Customs would notice them and forbid them (based on some of the illustrations, which left absolutely nothing to the imagination). The zines made it across the border okay, and then I had to worry about hiding them from my grandmother. She already didn't approve of my getting stuff in the mail from an "underground press" and thought I was just asking for trouble (around that time there was a big to-do with the RCMP reading peoples' mail if anything looked even remotely out of the ordinary).
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 04, 2013, 05:30:20 AM
That wasn't that many years since all those mailboxes were blowing up in Quebec, was it?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on October 04, 2013, 05:41:37 AM
That was ~15 years before, and it was a domestic terrorist group that was responsible for that.

I'm not sure whether parcels from Minnesota go to Toronto or Winnipeg first, but at least I'm in the other half of the country where that sort of thing is a lot less likely to happen.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 04, 2013, 05:43:46 AM
So, did you like Alternaties?  Anything in particular stand out for you?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on October 04, 2013, 05:54:23 AM
Well, naturally the Valjiir story about the Mirror-Sulu is the most memorable. ;) I also recall the story where Spock wasn't able to get back to his wife (T'Marse) when pon farr happened, and the only available person was his daughter - that one was disturbing, but then it is a story involving incest.

It's been years since I read Alternaties. Thankfully I still have them, along with IADR - they've come with me for several moves, and I'm currently trying to get all my zines unpacked and organized.

Once upon a time they all used to fit on one shelf...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on October 04, 2013, 04:11:29 PM
Still not feeling good and not making as much progress as I'd like to, but did work a little on Bela Oxmyx's face yesterday. Ran into a big problem, though.  I don't have a hair model that will work for him. Will have to do a new texture for one of my old hair models that incorporates his combination of widow's peak and receding hairline.

So, I know it's hard to judge a likeness until the hair and costume are right, but here's Bela so far.

Oh, and by the way, the guy playing him was acting his striped socks off in this episode.  When I went to Trekcore (http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/index.php (http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/index.php)) to get a screenshot to use as reference, this was as close as I could get to a "resting face" shot of him.  In every frame he's in, this guy is emoting like a champ... well, like a boss, as the kids would say...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on October 04, 2013, 04:16:40 PM
What was Alternaties?  I've never heard of it. Is the Valjiir story from it on the site?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 04, 2013, 04:19:40 PM
(http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4177.0;attach=7837)

That pretty much nails the features - but the cheeks and jaw are too thin.  Is a trace of jowls doable in Poser?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on October 04, 2013, 04:25:46 PM
Yeah... I think so.  I've got to add a morph to the neck to do it.... Hold on, be right back...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on October 04, 2013, 04:35:55 PM
here's the neck shorter and a little more jowl-y...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 04, 2013, 04:46:38 PM
This one looks good to me, sweets.

And Alternaties was a two-issue XXX-rated 'zine edited by yours truly.  I have copies if you'd like to see them.  And yes, Changeling is in "Stories: Alternates" on the site.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on October 06, 2013, 06:35:53 PM
Still struggling with Bela Oxmyx's hair.  I may just go ahead and render some scenes with out him so I can go ahead and get started.

I'm making some posters for Jarlwolf and while I was searching for inspiration, I started playing around with some of the .png files I'd generated for "Old Fashioned Man."  If I would have done renders specifically for this poster instead of just using "scraps," it probably would be much nicer, but here's what I came up with...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on October 06, 2013, 07:36:50 PM
..., but here's what I came up with...

A bit crowded, but I think it looks good.  :)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on October 06, 2013, 07:56:12 PM
Thanks! :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 06, 2013, 07:58:42 PM
You should do a 'Valjiir recruiting poster'.   Spock and Sulu side by side in heroic poses, looking off into the starscaped distance...

...And, it being Valjiir, they're wearing no pants.  -Kilkakon would love that part.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on October 07, 2013, 05:12:30 PM
...And, it being Valjiir, they're wearing no pants.  -Kilkakon would love that part.

Won't harm as long as its only a buste showing pose. ;cute
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 07, 2013, 05:14:47 PM
Mylochka?  That there's a second to the motion...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on October 07, 2013, 05:19:27 PM
No, it isn't!  :o
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 07, 2013, 05:21:34 PM
Is Spock's 'buste' or Sulu's you're so anxious to see?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on October 07, 2013, 05:23:05 PM
Valjiir's? ;cute
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 07, 2013, 05:25:51 PM
I think the challenge with those two girls is getting them to wear clothes in the first place...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on October 14, 2013, 12:37:04 AM
Jilla doesn't mind wearing clothes... as long as they're sleeveless.

(I do actually find it a bit strange that married Vulcan women wouldn't wear dresses with sleeves... they must not have to worry about sunburn or the Vulcan equivalent of mosquitoes, which are the two main reasons that I not only wear sleeved tops in summer, but if I'm going out, they have to be long sleeves!)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 14, 2013, 12:49:33 AM
I rather assumed that Vulcans, being desert-adapted, cover up, not for protection from the environment, but because touch telepaths have an easier time of it if they minimize casual/accidental skin contact...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on October 14, 2013, 01:02:46 AM
Wouldn't it be easier to minimize such contact if they wore sleeves?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 14, 2013, 01:43:30 AM
Yyyup.  For sure.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 14, 2013, 03:18:02 AM
-Oh it just hit me - you meant Iindians with that sleeveless remark.  I don't know enough about them and their empathic powers to comment intelligently.

Vulcans DO tend to cover up pretty thoroughly, usually only head and hands exposed.  I got the idea about not liking casual touches from a passing thought Gene Roddenberry put into Kirk's head when he met Xon in the novelization of TMP, which both is almost cannon, being Roddenberry's novelization of TMP, and makes a lot of sense, besides.  The only purely cannonical exception that comes to my mind is at Spock's wedding-thing, which is probably down to lingering pre-Reformation costume/traditions - the reserve about touching, I think, partly having to do with Surakian training and the natural reserve it surely fosters.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 14, 2013, 03:21:08 AM
(http://www.sherylfranklin.com/images/trek/women/classic/tpau3.jpg)

(http://www.startrek.com/legacy_media/images/200303/tos-034-t-pau-makes-a-ceremoni/320x240.jpg)
Betcha T'Pau is Spock's gramma or something.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-mN21MX-VgIE/TdfljqLumvI/AAAAAAAACGo/o86JE2WvtL8/s400/img075.jpg)
KROYka!

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/LadyVader/amoktimehd497.jpg)
Nobody likes Stonn.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on October 14, 2013, 03:49:11 AM
What I'm going by is one of the stories where Sulu and Jilla are on shore leave and he offers to buy her a dress. They go window-shopping, and she keeps refusing one after another, for various reasons. She explicitly states that it's improper for her to wear dresses "not sleeveless." When Sulu points out that her uniform has sleeves, she says that's different - it's a uniform. But off-duty, if she's going to wear a dress, it has to be sleeveless.

Remember, this is AU Trek, and doesn't necessarily follow all the established canon we saw on TV.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 14, 2013, 04:03:26 AM
Yah.  I'm only talking about Vulcans.

BTW, Sarek wasn't at Spock's bar mitzvah/wedding for reasons too obvious to bother going into.  Amanda wasn't there because she lives with the Ambassador to the Federation, probably on Earth, and nobody involved got a lot of notice when Spock showed up in orbit after all.  She'd have definitely cussed out Sarek and gone if she'd been on Vulcan, or her pig-headed son had called her a day or two in advance.  But Vulcans get quieter and stubborner -from embarrassment- when they're being illogical and emotional - which both Sarek and Spock were at that time.  Everybody knew it might happen about that time, but didn't tell the human lady.  Sarek got yelled at anyway, I'm sure, when she found out.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 22, 2013, 06:22:31 AM
Jilla doesn't mind wearing clothes... as long as they're sleeveless.

(I do actually find it a bit strange that married Vulcan women wouldn't wear dresses with sleeves... they must not have to worry about sunburn or the Vulcan equivalent of mosquitoes, which are the two main reasons that I not only wear sleeved tops in summer, but if I'm going out, they have to be long sleeves!)

Jilla's clothing preferences are Indiian, not Vulcan.  Before Selar died and while on Vulcan she dressed as Vulcan wives do, which does include long sleeves; see Lady Amanda's clothing.  However, once in Fleet, her civilian clothing reverted to the Indiian style.  Ah, the whims of fashion :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 22, 2013, 06:25:36 AM
-Oh it just hit me - you meant Iindians with that sleeveless remark.  I don't know enough about them and their empathic powers to comment intelligently.

Just FYI, Indiian sensitivity is not affected by clothing - or the lack of it - in the least.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 22, 2013, 06:28:55 AM

Betcha T'Pau is Spock's gramma or something.

Well, in Valjiir, yes, she is.

Nobody likes Stonn.

So tru dat!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on October 22, 2013, 06:46:21 AM
Jilla doesn't mind wearing clothes... as long as they're sleeveless.

(I do actually find it a bit strange that married Vulcan women wouldn't wear dresses with sleeves... they must not have to worry about sunburn or the Vulcan equivalent of mosquitoes, which are the two main reasons that I not only wear sleeved tops in summer, but if I'm going out, they have to be long sleeves!)

Jilla's clothing preferences are Indiian, not Vulcan.  Before Selar died and while on Vulcan she dressed as Vulcan wives do, which does include long sleeves; see Lady Amanda's clothing.  However, once in Fleet, her civilian clothing reverted to the Indiian style.  Ah, the whims of fashion :D
Ah, thanks for clearing that up! Would you believe that is a detail that has confused me for over 20 years?


As I recall, T'Pau is Spock's grandmother in Diane Duane's novel Spock's World.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 22, 2013, 03:18:59 PM
I have a theory about Spock and his family involving that...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on October 22, 2013, 04:23:38 PM
I'm finally getting started with illustrations for "The Percentage."  This one doesn't really tell you much about the story, but I just wanted to post to prove I've not dropped off the edge of the Earth...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on October 22, 2013, 04:25:41 PM
..., but I just wanted to post to prove I've not dropped off the edge of the Earth...

Unless you're a Terry Pratchet fangirrrl, that'd be quite a feat. ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on October 22, 2013, 04:28:30 PM
...it'd be a heckuva drop too...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on October 22, 2013, 04:34:05 PM
On the subject of Indiian clothing, here is Jilla in "Indiian-married-lady-appropriate" dress and an unidentified model in single lady dress in a travel ad for Indii I made up (along with several others) to go in the background of some illos.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on October 22, 2013, 06:10:52 PM
Does Indiian apparel always accentuate the buste?  :P
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 24, 2013, 02:31:18 AM
Indiian ladies always have an accentuated bust  :D

And BTW< happy birthday to Mylochka!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 24, 2013, 02:32:11 AM
...it'd be a heckuva drop too...

Unless one of the Elephants happened to catch you with its trunk....
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on October 24, 2013, 02:32:39 AM
I have a theory about Spock and his family involving that...

Spill, spill!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2014, 02:37:51 AM
Cher, I wanted to give you a heads-up that word is Star Trek: Phase II (nee New Voyages), the fan production, has an adaption of The Mindsifter lined up for principal photography later this year.  This being Phase II, they'll surely be interested in making sure it conforms to Enterprise/TNG continuity and making sure we know that !PETER IS GAY!  AND WE'RE COOL WITH THAT!, and are almost sure to contradict Valjiir continuity somehow along the way - but still of interest, I should think.


(My long-delayed answer/essay about Spock, Spock's family and Vulcans in general follows shortly, or at least the beginning.)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 23, 2014, 02:46:38 AM
I thoroughly enjoy New Voyages as another non-canon extension of TOS, so thanks for the heads up.  But whatever they produce, it hardly matters to Valjiir continuity, which is ALSO a non-canonical extension of ToS  :D

And I've been waiting for your answer for so long, a little longer makes no real difference  :)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on February 23, 2014, 02:47:52 AM
It's been awhile since I last re-read the "Shadow Captain" stories, but I don't remember anyone named Peter in them (Peter Kirk, Jim's nephew?).
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 23, 2014, 03:11:29 AM
Peter is mentioned in a couple of the Valjiir stories, so he does exist there, and yes, he's Jim Kirk's nephew.  Just very difference from the portrayal in New Voyages.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on February 23, 2014, 03:43:45 AM
I will have to re-read and refresh my memory.

(Most of my fanfic reading has been Voyager-related lately...)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 23, 2014, 04:31:01 AM
Just to be clear here:  You  mentioned "Shadow Captain" stories, and I don't think Peter Kirk is mentioned in that particular set of stories, but he IS mentioned in other VALJIIR stories.
Title: K! E! DOUBLE N!
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2014, 04:34:51 AM
Ooh!  Activity while I was writing.  I like activity.

I have a theory about Spock and his family involving that...

Spill, spill!
In discussing this or that about the background of the Star Trek universe with Mylochka, I say "We don't actually know that much about" [X] so often that she's tuned it into a joke.

X more than once equaled Vulcans.  Almost everything in real Star Trek that we think we know Vulcans is actually what we know about Spock.  (And of that, one thing that's pretty obvious is that he tells social lies about himself/Vulcans when he's embarrassed.  Who believed him the time he claimed he didn't have any feelings to hurt?  He asserts outlandishly absolute things of that stripe all. the. freakin'. time. when he's dealing with bigoted coworkers [or the latest sweet young thing from outside the Federation who's set her cap for him.])



The short answer is:
Spock's dad is Ambassador to the Federation (We don't actually know much about the Federation outside Starfleet; it appears likely be an interstellar treaty organization that coalesced ad-hoc into an interstellar government, in which case the role of "Ambassador to" could have evolved into more like sole "Senator from" in the interstellar legislature).  A VERY important person, if so.

T'Pau being the only person to ever turn down a seat on the Federation council could make her nothing but a notorious crank, for all we know - but given the tone of how it was said, and Kirk/McCoy's subsequent manner towards her, we can assume (with a high level of confidence) that again, a VERY important person.

(Incidentally- she could easily be, instead of Sarek's mother as in my headcannon and your fanfic continuity, alternately T'PRING's gramma, or -actually more logically for the Judge of the Wedding- an unrelated neutral party.  Both alternatives still imply that Spock's family is of extremely high status for someone as important as THE T'Pau to officiate.)

My conclusion -for this, and a million other little reasons I'll go into in future posts- is that Spock is the Vulcan equivalent of a Kennedy (if the Kennedys had been around a lot longer and drank less, anyway) that produces a lot of important scientists/administrators/leaders, etc., possibly going back thousands of years.  Vulcan just GOTS ta be a meritocracy, right?



Some of this, I'm sure, you thought of and/or contradicted 30+ years ago, and the edifice of what I've come to believe about Spock and his people is absolutely a house of cards of supposition/interpretation - but I fancy the cards fit together mighty well and often make better sense of cannon.  Since it's enough to fill a couple of chapters, and I've not been bursting with talkativeness for months, I'll try to make the job of relating it manageable by writing a little every day.

Comments welcome, everyone -keep in mind that I'm less likely to respond to stuff posted overnight, that I see while I'm still waking up, and that we're going to be patient with each other, remembering that all us old Trekkers are walking around with 40 years of personal headcannon that we're each pretty married to...

Next: I guess I'll talk probably about Spock and Sarek's relationship...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 23, 2014, 04:57:54 AM
I think I can agree with almost everything you've said here.  Yes, Spock's father and his family seem to be Vulcan Kennedys - VERY important politically.  While I can see the case for the old b - I mean T'Pau being T'Pring's mother, I don't buy it because of the venom in T'Pau's voice when she asks Spock "Is thee Vulcan or is thee Human?"  That sounds too personal for it to be just a general Vulcan distaste for his hybrid nature, at least to me.  There are stories on the Valjiir site that give information from Valjiir's canon about Vulcan; Logic's End, Waterfall (which is a very tiny vignette), Starcrossed, First Contact, It's Not Nice To Fool Mother Nature, A Sordid Affair, An Old Fashioned Man, and Days of Our Fathers if anyone's interested - though there are likely tidbits to be found here and there throughout most of the stories  ;)

Thanks for your answer, and I'll be waiting (patiently - or at least as patient as I can get  :P ) for other insights into your headcannon.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2014, 05:10:32 AM
You definitely get the idea that she doesn't have a sky-high opinion of humans - or that she, at the very least, is hard on everyone.  But it's hard to believe T'Pring didn't get tongue-slashed into oblivion, if the latter.  Where's the logic in wanting Stonn, after all?

It's nice to chat about this stuff with somebody besides the usual...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 23, 2014, 05:27:25 AM
Well, in ToS , T'Pring clearly chose Stonn because she assumed she could easily control him - Stonn's own childhood betrothed must have died or committed some other offense that broke the proto-bond, and let's face it -  how would someone that homely ever attract anyone else?  Naw, I'm just being snotty - even though he IS damn homely.  Who can fathom the mind of a [complaint or disagreeable woman] like T'Pring?  I mean, she said she thought Spock would not want her because she dared to Challenge, and even if he DID, he'd go away and she'd have his name, lands, and Stonn would still be there, and Spock said her logic was flawless.  I don't see it myself.  Maybe Vulcan logic is different than Earth logic (as I hear Mork saying, "Earth humor; arr arr arr!"  ;lol) 

But as to why Stonn in particular?  That's anybody's guess - and T'Pau DID have to tell him to shut up.  Of course, that could lend credence to the idea that she was T'Pring's gramma - since, as we both agree, Spock's a Kennedy and she might just rather have HIM for a grandson-in-law (even if he IS a half-breed) than little Mr. Nothing Stonn.

No, I take it back.  She's clearly upset about Spock's hybrid nature.  And our canons agree that she's Spock's grandmother, right?  ;)

And yes, it surely is nice to talk to someone about this!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on February 23, 2014, 05:37:47 AM
Just to be clear here:  You  mentioned "Shadow Captain" stories, and I don't think Peter Kirk is mentioned in that particular set of stories, but he IS mentioned in other VALJIIR stories.
Okay, thanks for clarifying that I'm not completely mixed up. :)

Part of my confusion stems from having read the print-form Valjiir stories years ago - I read and re-read those stories many times. When I was told on TrekBBS about your website and the many more stories (and rewrites of the originals), I realized I'd have to "unlearn" what happened before, and pay more attention. And somehow in all this, Peter Kirk has escaped my memories.

The last time I visited for some reading time, I was glad to finally understand the situation with Ruth and Terry. Was that part of the storyline always planned out that way? (trying not to spoil it for anyone reading this who hasn't read those particular stories yet)

As far as T'Pau being Spock's grandmother, didn't Diane Duane set up Spock's World with that assumption?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2014, 05:51:36 AM
he'd go away and she'd have his name, lands,
And you mention a point that I hadn't considered in support of my thesis.  Spock's (jawbreaker-starting-with-X in Valjiir) name and lands are something worth having.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 23, 2014, 05:55:44 AM
You're most welcome.

I can see how having the print versions in your head could prevent some problems with Valjiir canon.  It IS an evolving universe after all.  :)

Yes, Ruth and Terry were ALWAYS planned that way.  It was really tough trying to keep that from readers for so long.  My former editor wanted to get all the stories before the revelation written yesterday so she could print it.  But t'was not to be.  We'll all just be grateful for the website, huh?

As far as Ms. Duane's fan fiction, I've read very little of the 'legimately' published stuff. Now K/S fanzines..... (just for the sex, really.  I could never really see K/S as a real things.  I will admit, thought, some of the stories were VERY well written, and a few even had a version of the relationship I could accept as part of an alternate history).
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 23, 2014, 05:58:59 AM
he'd go away and she'd have his name, lands,
And you mention a point that I hadn't considered in support of my thesis.  Spock's (jawbreaker-starting-with-X in Valjiir) name and lands are something worth having.

Indeed. Who wouldn't want to be a Kennedy? :D  So how does this particular point support your thesis?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2014, 06:43:29 AM
The part of the thesis I meant being that Spock is from a big deal family - I'd just never considered T'Pring's implication that they were valuable in that context.  His (family?) name, and real estate worth owning belonging to someone who hasn't even lived on Vulcan for over 13 years.  Alternate explainations are possible, but it fits with important-rich family mighty well.  Quite an oversight on my part.

(We don't actually have any idea how old Spock is, y'know.  We know Sarek is just over 100, and Spock had been in Starfleet long enough to have made lieutenant (and third in command under Pike?) 13 years ago, but not long enough for such a capable and reliable officer -albeit fiercely unambitious- to have been forced as high as captain.  We know Amanda looks middle-aged, but not how old that tends to be for a human woman of that time with access to future gerontology  - we can't be sure she's not older than Sarek.  Spock's got to be more than twenty and less than 85, and no way to be sure at all where in there he falls.  If you count TAS Yesteryear, he was pretty closely equivalent to a pure human six year-old at six, and it's absolutely cannon that he was engaged to T'Pring at seven - [given the seven-year Pon Farr cycle, one surmises that the 14 year-olds have to be locked up for a few weeks and even the 21 & 28 year-olds go through interesting spells unless/until they settle down and marry].  Spock hadn't skipped enough Pon Farrs to be shocked when he did have one, but I have trouble imaging him being under 30, somehow.  [The nature of the falling-out with Sarek tends to support the younger end of the range, too.]  Vulcans are aliens, and we just don't know anything like everything about Spock, let alone the rest.)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on February 23, 2014, 07:45:13 AM
You're most welcome.

I can see how having the print versions in your head could prevent some problems with Valjiir canon.  It IS an evolving universe after all.  :)

Yes, Ruth and Terry were ALWAYS planned that way.  It was really tough trying to keep that from readers for so long.  My former editor wanted to get all the stories before the revelation written yesterday so she could print it.  But t'was not to be.  We'll all just be grateful for the website, huh?
Indeed. :D

I'm happy that a loose end that perplexed me 25 years ago is now tied up neatly. :)

Quote
As far as Ms. Duane's fan fiction, I've read very little of the 'legimately' published stuff. Now K/S fanzines..... (just for the sex, really.  I could never really see K/S as a real things.  I will admit, thought, some of the stories were VERY well written, and a few even had a version of the relationship I could accept as part of an alternate history).
I'm not sure what you mean by her fanfiction. I'm referring to the pro novel Spock's World, where part of the story takes place in Vulcan's past and the main story in the 'present' we're all familiar with. The point is clearly made that T'Pau is Sarek's mother, and with her death, Amanda would become the clan matriarch.

Are you saying that this novel was originally published as fanfic?


If you count TAS Yesteryear, he was pretty closely equivalent to a pure human six year-old at six, and it's absolutely cannon that he was engaged to T'Pring at seven - [given the seven-year Pon Farr cycle, one surmises that the 14 year-olds have to be locked up for a few weeks and even the 21 & 28 year-olds go through interesting spells unless/until they settle down and marry].  Spock hadn't skipped enough Pon Farrs to be shocked when he did have one, but I have trouble imaging him being under 30, somehow.  [The nature of the falling-out with Sarek tends to support the younger end of the range, too.]  Vulcans are aliens, and we just don't know anything like everything about Spock, let alone the rest.)
I remember a well-reasoned essay in Best of Trek (sorry, don't recall which one or who wrote it) where the author's point was that Spock, as a Human/Vulcan hybrid, matured at a different rate than T'Pring did (as she was pure Vulcan). Because of the telepathic bond that they had at age 7, Spock didn't go into pon farr until T'Pring was both physically and mentally ready.

(yes, I know ST III makes a mess of that reasoning, but maybe if Spock's reborn 7-year-old self had been bonded, his older self wouldn't have needed Saavik's help...)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 23, 2014, 08:05:14 AM
Sorry, I consider the pro novels "fan fiction" too.  Yeah, I'm showing my age and ignorance, but I just assumed even the pro writers were fans, so.... :-[  Mea culpa

BUncle - I's always assumed Spock (and other Vulcans) didn't worry about pon farr until puberty - and considering that Vulcans clearly live to be over 100, I also assumed that puberty for them came at a much later age than it does for Humans.  If I had to guess, I'd say for most Vulcans, that's at about 40-50.  Spock's came earlier because he's half Human. My guess at his age in ToS is around 36.  And I don't much care what Search For Spock says - I really don't consider anything after the animated series as being canon.  Yeah, I know, I'm a Neanderthal.... ;lol
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 23, 2014, 08:15:06 AM
The part of the thesis I meant being that Spock is from a big deal family - I'd just never considered T'Pring's implication that they were valuable in that context.  His (family?) name, and real estate worth owning belonging to someone who hasn't even lived on Vulcan for over 13 years.  Alternate explainations are possible, but it fits with important-rich family mighty well.  Quite an oversight on my part.

Gotcha.

(We don't actually have any idea how old Spock is, y'know.  We know Sarek is just over 100, and Spock had been in Starfleet long enough to have made lieutenant (and third in command under Pike?) 13 years ago, but not long enough for such a capable and reliable officer -albeit fiercely unambitious- to have been forced as high as captain.  We know Amanda looks middle-aged, but not how old that tends to be for a human woman of that time with access to future gerontology  - we can't be sure she's not older than Sarek.  Spock's got to be more than twenty and less than 85, and no way to be sure at all where in there he falls.  If you count TAS Yesteryear, he was pretty closely equivalent to a pure human six year-old at six, and it's absolutely cannon that he was engaged to T'Pring at seven - [given the seven-year Pon Farr cycle, one surmises that the 14 year-olds have to be locked up for a few weeks and even the 21 & 28 year-olds go through interesting spells unless/until they settle down and marry].  Spock hadn't skipped enough Pon Farrs to be shocked when he did have one, but I have trouble imaging him being under 30, somehow.  [The nature of the falling-out with Sarek tends to support the younger end of the range, too.]  Vulcans are aliens, and we just don't know anything like everything about Spock, let alone the rest.)

True, but I don't see pon farr as starting at 14 - or 21 - or 28 - or even, for full Vulcans, at 35.  The pre-bond is only to set the minds together, so that when the male DOES experience the mating drive, the female will answer his call.  The 7 year cycle only comes in AFTER the first hormonal change.  At least, that's how I've always seen it.

I agree that the falling out between Sarek and Spock puts Spock's age - as I postulated in my earlier post - around 36 or so.  If he was 18 - a young adult - when he and Sarek stopped talking, and it was, as Amanda says, 18 years since they've talked as father and son, that makes him  about 36 during Journey to Babel
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on February 23, 2014, 08:21:51 AM
Okay, I see what you meant. It's a reasonable assumption that people who write tie-in fiction would at least be fans of the show they're writing about, but that's not always the case. To some, it's just another writing job. They need to be familiar with the characters and the basics of the in-story universe, but they don't necessarily have to be fans. As far as I'm concerned, there are some things about Star Trek that I just don't give a damn what the studios said, or any of the producers, directors, movie writers, etc. said - Diane Duane's version of some things makes so much more sense than what was onscreen. The Romulans are but one example.

I've had the chance to discuss - argue, actually - with some of the novel writers over at TrekBBS. To me, Greg Cox's version of what happened to Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha VI just seems right. But try to argue canon/continuity with Christopher Bennett... well, there's a reason he's on my ignore list.

As for what else is canon... yikes. Enter those conversations there at your own risk.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 23, 2014, 04:32:13 PM
Okay, I see what you meant. It's a reasonable assumption that people who write tie-in fiction would at least be fans of the show they're writing about, but that's not always the case. To some, it's just another writing job. They need to be familiar with the characters and the basics of the in-story universe, but they don't necessarily have to be fans. As far as I'm concerned, there are some things about Star Trek that I just don't give a damn what the studios said, or any of the producers, directors, movie writers, etc. said - Diane Duane's version of some things makes so much more sense than what was onscreen. The Romulans are but one example.

I'm with you on the 'not giving a damn' thing, but tell me: since I've not read Ms. Duane's work - what about her Romulans is so compelling to you?

Quote
I've had the chance to discuss - argue, actually - with some of the novel writers over at TrekBBS. To me, Greg Cox's version of what happened to Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha VI just seems right. But try to argue canon/continuity with Christopher Bennett... well, there's a reason he's on my ignore list.

As for what else is canon... yikes. Enter those conversations there at your own risk.

I tend not to argue canon beyond the 3 seasons of ToS: as far as I'm concerned, everything after that which I don't agree with is easily ascribed to an alternate timeline.  I'm fond of alternate timelines - after all, I've spent most of my adult life concentrating on just such an alternate  :)

Surprised?

One thing I'll never understand is how and why people can assert that their interpretation of Star Trek is THE One True Right and Only Way.  Sure, Valjiir is 'truth' for me, but even Vajiir has its alternates, which is fine by me.  And if someone wants to argue canon with me - well, they can do that.  I don't mind if they believe something that is at odds with what I've established as real for Valjiir.  They're entitled to their interpretation, regardless of how wrong I may think it is.   I enjoy a good discussion on the whys of their interpretations because it can give me insights into my own writing - contrary to what some may say, I firmly believe authors never really know EVERYTHING that's in their work.  Readers can surprise us with their insights, just as some little throw-away line that sounds good in one story can become a MAJOR plot-line or character trait YEARS later.  Then the writer goes back and reads the throw-away line and says, "Hmmm, so THAT'S why I put that in there!"  :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2014, 08:48:19 PM
That's exactly how I've come to look at ST novels - that they're fanfic somebody got paid for.  FWIW, I read every novel published (including Mission to Horatius, and most of them more than once) up to around when TNG happened; I don't have to tell you guys how TNG happening sorta ruined it for a lot of Trek fandom.

I had to google Spock's World, 'cause it seemed familiar, but I see it came out in 89, which is roughly two years after Mylochka stopped getting everything published.  -I had hoped to turn up a copy, we still have everything, and refresh my memory - but no dice.  I do remember The Romulan Way, which threatened to be The Final Reflection for Romulans, but was partly ruined by a weak, fan-wanky, ending.  The Romulan history stuff that made up the bulk of the novel was quite strong, though.  Duane's pet Romulan commander defeating her enemies with sarcasm, not so much.

The Final Reflection was perfect, BTW.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2014, 08:53:15 PM
To me, Greg Cox's version of what happened to Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha VI just seems right.
After my time, but has anyone else realized that either there were invisible children aboard the Botany Bay, or Joachim and company were all 15 or less and matured really young?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 23, 2014, 09:20:47 PM
To me, Greg Cox's version of what happened to Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha VI just seems right.
After my time, but has anyone else realized that either there were invisible children aboard the Botany Bay, or Joachim and company were all 15 or less and matured really young?

*snort, snicker, chortle guffaw!*  Maybe part of the genetic engineering of the people from Space Seed was shortened gestation periods and faster maturity? Plus the 'Master Race' Blonde, blue-eyed genes?  Which is why Ricardo Montalban had to have white hair, 'cause his clearly NOT Caucasian look wasn't cuttin' it?

On the topic of the pro novels, I really don't have anything intelligent to contribute since, as I've said, I've read only a very few of them.  I HAVE read all of the James Blish and David Gerrold novelizations of Tos amd the animated series, if that's worth anything  :)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2014, 09:26:18 PM
Wrath, for all of being a beautifully-crafted thrill ride, was still profoundly flawed.  -And being the last movie I liked very much is a lot of why I've turned into what Green1 calls a "bittervet" who doesn't count anything after Turnabout Intruder as real -and would rather throw out Turnabout Intruder, too.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2014, 09:29:56 PM
Cher, have you been keeping up with Star Trek Continues?  The two episodes they've put out in under a year are pretty good.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on February 23, 2014, 09:47:09 PM
Okay, I see what you meant. It's a reasonable assumption that people who write tie-in fiction would at least be fans of the show they're writing about, but that's not always the case. To some, it's just another writing job. They need to be familiar with the characters and the basics of the in-story universe, but they don't necessarily have to be fans. As far as I'm concerned, there are some things about Star Trek that I just don't give a damn what the studios said, or any of the producers, directors, movie writers, etc. said - Diane Duane's version of some things makes so much more sense than what was onscreen. The Romulans are but one example.
I'm with you on the 'not giving a damn' thing, but tell me: since I've not read Ms. Duane's work - what about her Romulans is so compelling to you?
You've been missing out on some good stories. The first one I read is The Romulan Way. It's a McCoy-centric story, in which McCoy is sent to make contact with a deep-cover Federation agent who failed to report in. Since McCoy was part of the mission to steal the cloaking device, he's on the Romulans' "wanted" list, and that's the perfect way to get McCoy in place to find out what happened to the missing operative.

Besides likeable characters, what jumped out at me was that not everything was "Romulan-this, Romulan-that." The Romulans refer to themselves as Rihannsu, and their two principle planets are ch'Rihan and ch'Havran. They're fleshed out as people, not cookie-cutter figures with identical clothing, identical hairstyles, and no personality.

I haven't read all her Rihannsu books yet, but The Romulan Way and My Enemy, My Ally (in which we learn what happened to the Romulan Commander from "The Enterprise Incident") are both excellent. Spock's World can be taken as two books in one, if you don't want to read the "historical vignettes" that take place in Vulcan's past. These vignettes follow life on Vulcan from the prehistoric time when primitive Vulcans had to cope with their planet suddenly being fried into a desert due to an unusually violent solar flare that stripped away most of the planet's vegetation, surface water, and some of the atmosphere. Later vignettes explore how Vulcan society was changed by the various adaptations of telepathy, the eyelid that prevented Spock's permanent blindness, how the Vulcans' penchant for violent warfare nearly destroyed their world (and T'Khut, the twin planet that some have mistakenly referred to as a "moon"), and Surak's realization that unless a drastic change is made, the species won't survive. The Vulcans who refuse to accept logic as a way of life opt to follow S'task and leave the planet in a fleet of ships - eventually becoming the Rihannsu (Romulans).

The part of the novel in the "here and now" of the 23rd century has some strange and dirty politics going on, as some Vulcans have managed to bring about a situation where Vulcan has to vote on whether or not to secede from the Federation. This is where we learn that T'Pau is Sarek's mother, Spock's grandmother, and the clan matriarch.

One of the reasons I found the novel so compelling is because of the notion that Vulcan might actually secede. For decades, Canada has had to cope with separatists in both Quebec and Alberta, who think their respective provinces would be better off out of the country. As an Albertan, I can say that the separatists from my province are not in the least bit worth taking seriously, but those in Quebec have managed to cause a great deal of trouble and annoyance over the past several decades. Some of the questions and issues raised in Spock's World made me have an 'ah-ha!' moment and think about some things I'd never considered before in the RL situation my country has been in.

Oh, and I mentioned likeable characters... Kirk gets a Horta crewmember!  :D


Quote
Quote
I've had the chance to discuss - argue, actually - with some of the novel writers over at TrekBBS. To me, Greg Cox's version of what happened to Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha VI just seems right. But try to argue canon/continuity with Christopher Bennett... well, there's a reason he's on my ignore list.

As for what else is canon... yikes. Enter those conversations there at your own risk.
I tend not to argue canon beyond the 3 seasons of ToS: as far as I'm concerned, everything after that which I don't agree with is easily ascribed to an alternate timeline.  I'm fond of alternate timelines - after all, I've spent most of my adult life concentrating on just such an alternate  :)

Surprised?

One thing I'll never understand is how and why people can assert that their interpretation of Star Trek is THE One True Right and Only Way.  Sure, Valjiir is 'truth' for me, but even Vajiir has its alternates, which is fine by me.  And if someone wants to argue canon with me - well, they can do that.  I don't mind if they believe something that is at odds with what I've established as real for Valjiir.  They're entitled to their interpretation, regardless of how wrong I may think it is.   I enjoy a good discussion on the whys of their interpretations because it can give me insights into my own writing - contrary to what some may say, I firmly believe authors never really know EVERYTHING that's in their work.  Readers can surprise us with their insights, just as some little throw-away line that sounds good in one story can become a MAJOR plot-line or character trait YEARS later.  Then the writer goes back and reads the throw-away line and says, "Hmmm, so THAT'S why I put that in there!"  :D
Christopher Bennett has a really pedantic way of talking down to people that some there find very annoying. I was sufficiently annoyed that I ended up telling him he was acting like a jerk (you can swear all you want on that forum - but don't ever call anybody a jerk or you'll end up with an infraction for trolling...  ::) ). To some people, if it's on TV or in a movie, it's canon. They figure that if Gene Roddenberry only said it in a writer's guide, it's not canon. They say pro novels are not canon (some of them should be, in my opinion, but whatever...). Some there can have endless arguments over the canon status of TAS.

Anyway, for me Enterprise (the series) and the Abrams movies do not exist. Enterprise contradicts so much of what was already established, and the rest doesn't make sense. And when the most likeable character is the beagle, why not just watch Charlie Brown instead? As for the Abrams movies... I forced myself to watch the first one, a couple of years after it came out (it was on the Space Channel), and because I caught so much flak for having been very vocal about it on TrekBBS, I used my free "on-demand" rental from the cable company to see the "Into Darkness" movie. It didn't improve my opinion of this "reboot" - it's still crap.

There were some part of TNG I liked (shame they killed Tasha off; she was my favorite character), some parts of DS9 (the friendship between Julian and O'Brien), and I loved most of Voyager ("Threshold" does not exist. It's even worse than "Spock's Brain.").

Movie-wise, I pretty much ignore the existence of STV. The other TOS movies get argued about, whether or not TMP takes place in the same universe as the others, and now the blatant way Abrams ripped off TWoK when he did "Into Darkness." So for me, the movies are #1-4, 6, and there are some parts of "First Contact" I don't mind. I liked the character of Lily. They should have found someone else to play Cochrane. The rest of the movies are not canon to me, they don't exist. To me they are completely pointless.

To me, Greg Cox's version of what happened to Khan and his people on Ceti Alpha VI just seems right.
After my time, but has anyone else realized that either there were invisible children aboard the Botany Bay, or Joachim and company were all 15 or less and matured really young?
I'm not holding what Harve Bennett & Nicholas Meyer put onscreen against Greg Cox, who had nothing to do with it. Most of his Khan trilogy takes place on Earth, and involves Gary Seven and Roberta Lincoln. Only the last volume really gets into what happened on Ceti Alpha V/VI.

*snort, snicker, chortle guffaw!*  Maybe part of the genetic engineering of the people from Space Seed was shortened gestation periods and faster maturity? Plus the 'Master Race' Blonde, blue-eyed genes?  Which is why Ricardo Montalban had to have white hair, 'cause his clearly NOT Caucasian look wasn't cuttin' it?

On the topic of the pro novels, I really don't have anything intelligent to contribute since, as I've said, I've read only a very few of them.  I HAVE read all of the James Blish and David Gerrold novelizations of Tos amd the animated series, if that's worth anything  :)
I got called every kind of racist because I mentioned on TrekBBS that if they were going to retell the meeting of Kirk and Khan, they should have found an actor who resembled Ricardo Montalban's portrayal in the TV series. It was completely pointless to make Benedict Cumberwhatever's character Khan - the story would have worked just as well (*snicker*) with him remaining John Harrison, rather than Khan.

BTW, it was Alan Dean Foster who wrote the Animated Series novelizations, not David Gerrold. ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2014, 09:57:49 PM
Now I have to make Mylochka do some Charlie Brown/Star Trek cartoons...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on February 23, 2014, 10:34:06 PM
I seem to recall some Peanuts/ST comics from waaay back called "Sp'charliebrownak". They were cute. :)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2014, 10:53:39 PM
That sounds very familiar.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 23, 2014, 10:56:14 PM
Wrath, for all of being a beautifully-crafted thrill ride, was still profoundly flawed.  -And being the last movie I liked very much is a lot of why I've turned into what Green1 calls a "bittervet" who doesn't count anything after Turnabout Intruder as real -and would rather throw out Turnabout Intruder, too.

I agree about Wrath, and I thought Save The Whales had a certain Trouble with Tribbles charm (and I just ADORE the DS9 version of that!), and as should be obvious by now, I'm with you on the pretty much ignoring part.  Guess I'm a 'bittervet' too.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 23, 2014, 10:57:53 PM
Cher, have you been keeping up with Star Trek Continues?  The two episodes they've put out in under a year are pretty good.

Hmmmm - I think we saw the first one, but since Dave and I like to watch that stuff together it's hard to find the time.  Thanks for the reminder.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2014, 11:00:11 PM
They released another episode two weeks ago - I posted it here:  http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=1319.msg42624#msg42624 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=1319.msg42624#msg42624)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2014, 11:08:31 PM
Sp'charliebrownak
Ah.  Found them on Deviant Art:

(http://th08.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2010/208/5/f/The_Vulcan_Sunday_Comics_17_by_Teegar.jpg)

(http://th04.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2010/210/b/9/The_Vulcan_Sunday_Comics_21_by_Teegar.jpg)

(http://th07.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2010/209/d/4/The_Vulcan_Sunday_Comics_19_by_Teegar.jpg)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 23, 2014, 11:20:18 PM
Ok, a lot to comment on.

Valka - Ms. Duane's Romulans sound very interesting, though I doubt if I'll check it out.  Wouldn't want to get into another flak over pro novels.

Second - I agree completely that the reboot isn't canon; it's not supposed to be.  It sets up from the get-go that this is an ALTERNATE to Original Trek.  So of course things are WAY different.  For me, I can see the basic  TOS characters in Chris Pine, Zachary Quinto, Karl Urban et al, and for, me, that's what's most important.  And likewise, the Khan in Into Darkness wasn't Ricardo Montalban - the character was supposed to be different.  Funny, I don't see many people complaining that Senor Montalban wasn't Indian/Pakistani to begin with, so why should another actor have to be?  But be that as it may.  Into Darkness wasn't, IMO a "rip-off" - Abrams was telling the events from the new universe POV.  That's what alternates do.  I love the reboots precisely BECAUSE they're alternates - and as I mentioned before, I love alternates.  To see the effects changes in the universe have on characters and the world itself is endlessly fascinating to me.  New twists on old story lines are Mardi Gras for me.  Canon?  No.  Enjoyable for the wonderful alternates they are?  Definitely.

But then, you're a Voyager lover.  No accounting for taste  ;)  We're in agreement, though that Enterprise SUCKED!  It WAS supposed to be canon, after all.  Vulcans and Velcro.  Who knew?  ::)

And oops! My bad. Yes, I misremembered who wrote the animated novels.  Mea culpa

And BUncle, thanks for the link!

Finally - Spcharliebrownak!  Talk about a blast from the past!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2014, 11:30:22 PM
Strange thing about Voyager; it was as flawed and disappointing -and dumb- a piece of fake Star Trek as the techno-babble mafia ever put out, but it had a certain energy that all the others lacked, and I therefore found it the most fixable.  First thing I do, given a time machine and some means to impose my will, is put Janeway out the airlock...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on February 23, 2014, 11:45:44 PM
Ok, a lot to comment on.

Valka - Ms. Duane's Romulans sound very interesting, though I doubt if I'll check it out.  Wouldn't want to get into another flak over pro novels.

Second - I agree completely that the reboot isn't canon; it's not supposed to be.  It sets up from the get-go that this is an ALTERNATE to Original Trek.  So of course things are WAY different.  For me, I can see the basic  TOS characters in Chris Pine, Zachary Quinto, Karl Urban et al, and for, me, that's what's most important.  And likewise, the Khan in Into Darkness wasn't Ricardo Montalban - the character was supposed to be different.  Funny, I don't see many people complaining that Senor Montalban wasn't Indian/Pakistani to begin with, so why should another actor have to be?  But be that as it may.  Into Darkness wasn't, IMO a "rip-off" - Abrams was telling the events from the new universe POV.  That's what alternates do.  I love the reboots precisely BECAUSE they're alternates - and as I mentioned before, I love alternates.  To see the effects changes in the universe have on characters and the world itself is endlessly fascinating to me.  New twists on old story lines are Mardi Gras for me.  Canon?  No.  Enjoyable for the wonderful alternates they are?  Definitely.

But then, you're a Voyager lover.  No accounting for taste  ;)  We're in agreement, though that Enterprise SUCKED!  It WAS supposed to be canon, after all.  Vulcans and Velcro.  Who knew?  ::)

And oops! My bad. Yes, I misremembered who wrote the animated novels.  Mea culpa

And BUncle, thanks for the link!

Finally - Spcharliebrownak!  Talk about a blast from the past!
Okay, I'm thinking that the Abrams movies are a topic we should agree to disagree about - I gave them a fair shake and remain unconvinced they're good movies period, never mind good Star Trek.

It's not alternate universes I object to - after all, I've been a Valjiir fan for over 25 years! ;) I remember getting into a 'discussion' with someone in Calgary who found one of the flyers that mentioned issues 15 & 16 of IADR, and started fuming that it just wasn't right that Spock would marry - not anyone! I explained that it was an alternate universe, and she started shouting, "Nope. Nope. NOT RIGHT!" and then stomped off.

I object to alternate universes done badly.

What is it about Voyager you didn't like?

Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 23, 2014, 11:59:10 PM
I bet it was the whole Janeway was a man's idea of a tough woman, bearing little resemblance to a real one, thing.  Square jaw, in-your-face "mine's bigger" 'tude, and posed when she gave orders.  I clearly recall all the geek girls I knew really hating her when Voyager first came out.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on February 24, 2014, 12:33:45 AM
Her whole speech about how Kirk and his crew would have been booted out of Starfleet 'cause that's not how WE do things is pure bulls**t. She's very much like Kirk in a lot of ways.

My favorite Voyager characters are Seven, Tom, the Doctor, and I even like Harry.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 24, 2014, 02:17:17 AM
BUncle is right - I didn't like Janeway.  At all.  And I agree in the main with his assessment of the show, though I didn't see the energy he speaks of.  I didn't like the whole 'you can never go home' theme.  I didn't like the reversing the polarity of the neutron flow over-done gimmick (Hello?  Neutrons don't have a polarity).  I didn't like all the times Janeway decided that she wasn't going to do - whatever - to get her people back home.  I didn't like the fact that the crew didn't mutiny.  Or that they didn't jump ship en mass when there was a planet available to colonize. Or even jump ship at all.  I mean NOBODY wanted to live out a normal life?  I absolutely HATED 7 of 9.  The doctor made me twitchy.

Shall I go on?

And yes, let's agree to disagree about the reboot.  And, I think we should do the same for Voyager.

Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 24, 2014, 02:36:04 AM
When they were on their game -which wasn't every week, but sometimes- it was, flat-out, the best fly-around-and-shoot-stuff adventure show of all the fake Star Treks by about an order of magnitude.

-Which is not to say that the show was good, just that I think good scripts and a different lead could have fixed most of the considerable portion that never worked.  (Neelix was going right out the airlock behind Janeway when I took over about mid-run, and Choaky and Tuvok would have been on probation, to see if we could do anything with them hating each other and having to work together...  I actually had some ideas for doing something interesting w/ Pieces of Eight, if I couldn't just keep Kes instead...)
Title: Back to Spock...
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 24, 2014, 09:28:43 PM
I'm only about the millionth person to observe that there has to be a story behind Spock's very existence.

After all, Amanda ought to be more genetically related to an ear of corn than an alien dude from space who only LOOKS a lot like a human.  Sargon's people/the Preservers may, stress may, complicate the issue, but the fact remains that if Dracula bit Sarek, Dracula would be poisoned.  Kissing Sarek would taste like all the times you put pennies in your mouth as a child (we were all under ten for ten years, so don't even front that you never licked a penny and discovered how bitter copper compounds taste).  That green copper-based blood is no trivial difference; it makes Vulcan bio-chemistry profoundly different than Human.  Absent high-tech test tube intervention, Sarek's emissions not only have a chance of making Amanda pregnant that approaches absolute zero (even with Sargon in the background); they'd probably make her sick.  Vulcans may not even have DNA, though that's way over my biochemical pay-grade to say with much confidence, and of course they'd have something pretty similar if Sargon wuz here.  But the biochemical issue does tend to rule out any possibility of coincidental interfertility...

We can agree, can we not, that where Star Trek has not already contradicted natural law, analysis/fanfixes/etc. are bounded by science from the real world as best we can manage, yes?

Something A space person with copper-based blood surely would smell strange.  The pheromonal  cues, as well as the social ones, would tend to be all wrong for marrying Amanda to seem like the logical thing at the time for Sarek to do, absent a reason beyond mere personal attraction.  (It stands to reason that a great deal of each other's very food would be poisonous - dollars to doughnuts that Spock had to medicate against food poisoning off-camera a lot, living among humans and eating the same food; though his vegetarian diet might help that a great deal, too.)  There are a lot of reasons that marrying a human lady wouldn't be a great idea - and the superlatively logical Sarek would  surely have considered many of them in advance.  It stands to reason, then, that Sarek Had A Greater Purpose in his marriage and undergoing a risky medical procedure to make possible a half-earther child who will have to grow up in an insular society even if a viable live child results.  (But I'll grant that unemotional Sarek may not have considered the not-terribly logical, but pretty emotion-based social/identity problems Spock would face growing up and beyond.)

-And of course, Sarek was engaged to a Vulcan girl when he was seven - but ended up married to Amanda when we met him, for some reason (that seemed logical at the time).  Leaving aside that there's an idea for a slash story in there, and even leaving aside that Spock provides ample evidence that human(iod) women are obviously far more attractive to him than Spock admits, (which implies that the same may be true for pure Vulcans) between all the problems I've mentioned just trying to hit the high points and factoring in that Sarek is a Very Important Politician in a Top Level Government Job, Spock could exist for no more reason than you or I do, but I doubt it.


(BTW, I'm not a terrible story writer myself, but my interest in ST fanfic only extends to reading it - Mylochka has been encouraging me in, and of course participating in, this kind of speculation -not least as story fodder- since the beginning of time.  I'm cool with having my speculations mined for story ideas - I'd be delighted, in fact.)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 24, 2014, 11:37:43 PM
I don't recall if it was made explicit that Sarek didn't approve of Starfleet out of Vulcan pacifism; Mylochka suggests that it may have been a line in Yesteryear.

I don't have a lot of firm ideas about Spock's "purpose" in being brought into existence.  I will make three observations of which any or all may be relevant factors:

1).  Vulcans are probably extremely weak at creativity and imagination and things of that sort, which would actually be a severe limitation even in the sort of fields like pure science where their logical minds excel.

2.)  Vulcans have trouble getting along with other races, who all seem to be emotional, comparatively irrational, and a little dim by comparison.  It appears that they think poorly of humans, for example, and it stands to reason that they would.

3.)  Most known intelligent races are of a similar physical type (psychologically, too, Vulcans being the result of an extremist cultural adaption from an emotional race; one fancies that, given a common language, a Mongol and pre-Reformation Vulcan would have no trouble finding common ground).  Klingons aren't much of a variation even if you count the movie/TNG, etc. hairy turtle heads.  Andorians have antennae and are blue and otherwise standard.  Tallosians have big bald heads and powerful illusion-casting powers, but otherwise, pretty humanoid.  Even Tellerites could be of the same stock, two fingers and a snout not being much in the way of variation.  We've seen red people and even a black-and-white race of mime-looking bigots with impressive mental powers.  Following the same line of thinking, it may be significant that Organians and Metrons choose to manifest as utterly unexotic stock humanoids (they're more likely doing it for Kirk's sake, but they could be reverting to their natural pre-energy-being-evolution forms for all we know).

As it happens, there's definitely a majority type running around, that just so happens to look exactly like us Earth European-descended types.  (For the purposes of this discussion, we'll ignore how unlikely real world modern anthropological evidence makes it that white folks is th' -whatchcall- base type, and likewise the real world reasons.)  Planet after planet after planet is full of people who looks like their forebears came over on the Space Mayflower.  Even the planet that seems to dominate the interstellar political entity of which Vulcan is part, while enjoying some racial diversity, looks dominated by humanoids completely indistinguishable visually from Landru's people, Emminiarans, Akkarans, Yangs, Space Nazis, Zeons, (it's a really long list, especially if you throw in suspect cases like Plato's Stepchildren, Miri's people and the Greek Gods, and this is no attempt at a complete list) --- Whitey Is Everywhere, and Vulcan has to deal with Whitey.  Incidentally, Amanda is white.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 24, 2014, 11:50:37 PM
...In fact, ignore that I mentioned Whitey - that's too distracting from the real point, which is that humanoids at least superficially identical to Earth Humans are everywhere in our part of the galaxy.  In fact, I suggested to Mylochka when we were talking about a series of Klingon POV adventures, that they consider something like "Klingonoid Pale" the standard alien type, for  comic effect, but also because that's certainly the case on the Federation side of the border...
Title: Re: Back to Spock...
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 25, 2014, 12:30:26 AM
I'm only about the millionth person to observe that there has to be a story behind Spock's very existence.

After all, Amanda ought to be more genetically related to an ear of corn than an alien dude from space who only LOOKS a lot like a human.  Sargon's people/the Preservers may, stress may, complicate the issue, but the fact remains that if Dracula bit Sarek, Dracula would be poisoned.  Kissing Sarek would taste like all the times you put pennies in your mouth as a child (we were all under ten for ten years, so don't even front that you never licked a penny and discovered how bitter copper compounds taste).  That green copper-based blood is no trivial difference; it makes Vulcan bio-chemistry profoundly different than Human.  Absent high-tech test tube intervention, Sarek's emissions not only have a chance of making Amanda pregnant that approaches absolute zero (even with Sargon in the background); they'd probably make her sick.  Vulcans may not even have DNA, though that's way over my biochemical pay-grade to say with much confidence, and of course they'd have something pretty similar if Sargon wuz here.  But the biochemical issue does tend to rule out any possibility of coincidental interfertility...

Part of the point of any science fiction is to take some current scientific understand and extrapolate from it into a possible future.  The idea that there would be the kind of conception that results in Spock in the 23rd century was, in the 1960's, a perfectly plausible scenario.  As far as ToS canon goes, the idea of the Seeders was postulated, along with the fact that Vulcans are one species who subscribe to this idea.  If this, then, is fact, Vulcans and HUmans (and other species for that matter) would be closer genetically that would at first seem possible.

Quote
We can agree, can we not, that where Star Trek has not already contradicted natural law, analysis/fanfixes/etc. are bounded by science from the real world as best we can manage, yes?

Yes - but what is considered extrapolation from what we now think of as possible is up for debate, yes?

Quote
Something A space person with copper-based blood surely would smell strange.  The pheromonal  cues, as well as the social ones, would tend to be all wrong for marrying Amanda to seem like the logical thing at the time for Sarek to do, absent a reason beyond mere personal attraction.  (It stands to reason that a great deal of each other's very food would be poisonous - dollars to doughnuts that Spock had to medicate against food poisoning off-camera a lot, living among humans and eating the same food; though his vegetarian diet might help that a great deal, too.)  There are a lot of reasons that marrying a human lady wouldn't be a great idea - and the superlatively logical Sarek would  surely have considered many of them in advance.  It stands to reason, then, that Sarek Had A Greater Purpose in his marriage and undergoing a risky medical procedure to make possible a half-earther child who will have to grow up in an insular society even if a viable live child results.  (But I'll grant that unemotional Sarek may not have considered the not-terribly logical, but pretty emotion-based social/identity problems Spock would face growing up and beyond.)

While that is generally true (see my comment about the Seeders), the idea that 23rd Century Starfleet replicators would be unable to be programmed for Vulcan food is rather ridiculous.  As far as pheromones go, the fact that they would be different does NOT automatically equate to repulsive.  Remember, we're dealing with a VERY idealistic future vision; no prejudice, an embrace of difference.  And sure, marrying interspecies may not be  'a great idea' - but in Roddenberry's world, the heart wants what the heart wants - or in Sarek's case, more likely what pon farr wants.  ;)
Quote
-And of course, Sarek was engaged to a Vulcan girl when he was seven - but ended up married to Amanda when we met him, for some reason (that seemed logical at the time).  Leaving aside that there's an idea for a slash story in there, and even leaving aside that Spock provides ample evidence that human(iod) women are obviously far more attractive to him than Spock admits, (which implies that the same may be true for pure Vulcans) between all the problems I've mentioned just trying to hit the high points and factoring in that Sarek is a Very Important Politician in a Top Level Government Job, Spock could exist for no more reason than you or I do, but I doubt it.

There would be any number of reasons why Sarek's childhood betrothed wasn't in the picture.  Of course, Valjiir deals with ALL this in its own way. :)
Quote
(BTW, I'm not a terrible story writer myself, but my interest in ST fanfic only extends to reading it - Mylochka has been encouraging me in, and of course participating in, this kind of speculation -not least as story fodder- since the beginning of time.  I'm cool with having my speculations mined for story ideas - I'd be delighted, in fact.)

I'll keep that in mind :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 25, 2014, 12:41:49 AM
I don't recall if it was made explicit that Sarek didn't approve of Starfleet out of Vulcan pacifism; Mylochka suggests that it may have been a line in Yesteryear.

I'll have to check that out, but I think Mylochka is right. 

Quote
I don't have a lot of firm ideas about Spock's "purpose" in being brought into existence.  I will make three observations of which any or all may be relevant factors:

1).  Vulcans are probably extremely weak at creativity and imagination and things of that sort, which would actually be a severe limitation even in the sort of fields like pure science where their logical minds excel.

2.)  Vulcans have trouble getting along with other races, who all seem to be emotional, comparatively irrational, and a little dim by comparison.  It appears that they think poorly of humans, for example, and it stands to reason that they would.

3.)  Most known intelligent races are of a similar physical type (psychologically, too, Vulcans being the result of an extremist cultural adaption from an emotional race; one fancies that, given a common language, a Mongol and pre-Reformation Vulcan would have no trouble finding common ground).  Klingons aren't much of a variation even if you count the movie/TNG, etc. hairy turtle heads.  Andorians have antennae and are blue and otherwise standard.  Tallosians have big bald heads and powerful illusion-casting powers, but otherwise, pretty humanoid.  Even Tellerites could be of the same stock, two fingers and a snout not being much in the way of variation.  We've seen red people and even a black-and-white race of mime-looking bigots with impressive mental powers.  Following the same line of thinking, it may be significant that Organians and Metrons choose to manifest as utterly unexotic stock humanoids (they're more likely doing it for Kirk's sake, but they could be reverting to their natural pre-energy-being-evolution forms for all we know).

As it happens, there's definitely a majority type running around, that just so happens to look exactly like us Earth European-descended types.  (For the purposes of this discussion, we'll ignore how unlikely real world modern anthropological evidence makes it that white folks is th' -whatchcall- base type, and likewise the real world reasons.)  Planet after planet after planet is full of people who looks like their forebears came over on the Space Mayflower.  Even the planet that seems to dominate the interstellar political entity of which Vulcan is part, while enjoying some racial diversity, looks dominated by humanoids completely indistinguishable visually from Landru's people, Emminiarans, Akkarans, Yangs, Space Nazis, Zeons, (it's a really long list, especially if you throw in suspect cases like Plato's Stepchildren, Miri's people and the Greek Gods, and this is no attempt at a complete list) --- Whitey Is Everywhere, and Vulcan has to deal with Whitey.  Incidentally, Amanda is white.

Oh PLEASE!  You're basing this on the limits of 1960's special effects and the constraints of 1960's mentality?  Roddenberry, by most accounts, chafed at those limitations, he wanted MUCH more diversity.  But network execs were worried that viewers wouldn't be able to relate to REALLY alien species - it's well known that they FREAKED at Spock's green blood!  Chekov didn't appear until the second season because network execs FREAKED at the thought of a Russian (gasp!) in what was clearly an 'American' crew.  It was silly 1960's worries and fears.  Roddenberry had to fight to include an Asian and an African American woman.

Ok, taking this as a serious question about the ToS universe, and not strictly on a "this was a TV show" POV - I say again: Seeders.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on February 25, 2014, 12:57:38 AM
Ok, taking this as a serious question about the ToS universe, and not strictly on a "this was a TV show" POV - I say again: Seeders.
I can't help but recall "Return to Tomorrow" when Dr. Mulhall basically says that all the evidence she (and presumably most other Terran scientists) says that human life on Earth evolved independently.

How far back in the evolutionary timeline did the Seeders go? 'Cause we've got the fossil record to show that if the Seeders were responsible for humans, it had to have been many millions of years ago.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 25, 2014, 01:06:13 AM


I can't help but recall "Return to Tomorrow" when Dr. Mulhall basically says that all the evidence she (and presumably most other Terran scientists) says that human life on Earth evolved independently.

How far back in the evolutionary timeline did the Seeders go? 'Cause we've got the fossil record to show that if the Seeders were responsible for humans, it had to have been many millions of years ago.

Yes, millions and millions of years.  They've been guiding evolution throughout the galaxy all along.  And no, there's nothing in canon that would support this - but there's nothing that contradicts it, either, Dr. Mulhall notwithstanding.  After all, our understanding of science is ever evolving.  And again, this was from the 1960's, so the words put into character's mouths were based on 1960's understandings.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 25, 2014, 01:38:14 AM
[ninja'd]

 And as I followed up:
...In fact, ignore that I mentioned Whitey - that's too distracting from the real point, which is that humanoids at least superficially identical to Earth Humans are everywhere in our part of the galaxy.

Seeders, of course - this is so self-evidently the reason for humanoids everywhere that I felt no need to get into it more than I did with mentions of Sargon/Preservers, my purpose having nothing to do with WHY humanoids everywhere, but with this being a fact of galactic reality someone like Sarek could have felt the need to react to.  I think I covered observation 3.) sufficient depth already, but I want to elaborate on 1.) and 2.) later this evening when I get caught up on some unrelated things I'm working on.


Roddenberry had to fight to include an Asian and an African American woman.
If you really want, I can point you at some pretty credible research that tends to indicate a more complex reality.  It took me years on forums to grow out of wanting to win arguments on the internet, but Gene was capable of some self-serving stories.

Yes - but what is considered extrapolation from what we now think of as possible is up for debate, yes?
I'm not sure I follow.

the idea that 23rd Century Starfleet replicators would be unable to be programmed for Vulcan food is rather ridiculous.
Well, it appeared that they were all eating little cubes of foam rubber, so who can say?  Spock did eat what everyone else was having on a few alien planets (of earth-looking humanoids) a time or two...

As far as pheromones go, the fact that they would be different does NOT automatically equate to repulsive.
But it IS almost certainly different than what turns me on.  My dog is far more biochemically compatible, is a good-looking beast IMO, and mostly even smells good to me - but the sexual chemistry just isn't there.  Different isn't bad or anything, but is a problem for the biochemistry.

Remember, we're dealing with a VERY idealistic future vision; no prejudice, an embrace of difference.
This is precisely what I dislike about a lot of fanfic, pro and amateur, and even the latter half of the run of DS9; where's my optimistic future?  We already have Star Wars (and now SkylarTrek) for constant battles and ship porn.

-But if no one has flaws, and there's no conflict, we're left with a very boring Picard speech.  SOME balance is called for.  I'm just sayin'.

or in Sarek's case, more likely what pon farr wants.  ;)
As I said, it's an idea for some sexy fun  - if you haven't already, which I tend to doubt.   ;)

There would be any number of reasons why Sarek's childhood betrothed wasn't in the picture.  Of course, Valjiir deals with ALL this in its own way. :)
But of course.  -Though I'll bet this isn't all so finally and completely contradicted as to preclude the possibility that Sarek Had A Plan, if not in regard to the specific bits I'm speculating about.  [shrugs]  All I'm really at here is trying to look at everything we know about Spock the Vulcans and everything and make more sense of the whole kibosh.

More later...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 25, 2014, 01:46:31 AM
Mind you, at least the Blish adaption said Sargon had been there in the globe half a million years, and if the galaxy was seeded with humanoids of identical stock no MORE than 500,000 years ago on improbably similar planets, I don't buy for a second that their descendants would more like us than Tellerites after so long.  It's a suspend-belief-and-don't-think-too-hard-about-that-part thing, IMO...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 25, 2014, 02:44:08 AM
[ninja'd]

Seeders, of course - this is so self-evidently the reason for humanoids everywhere that I felt no need to get into it more than I did with mentions of Sargon/Preservers, my purpose having nothing to do with WHY humanoids everywhere, but with this being a fact of galactic reality someone like Sarek could have felt the need to react to.  I think I covered observation 3.) sufficient depth already, but I want to elaborate on 1.) and 2.) later this evening when I get caught up on some unrelated things I'm working on.

Looking forward to it.

Roddenberry had to fight to include an Asian and an African American woman.
Quote
If you really want, I can point you at some pretty credible research that tends to indicate a more complex reality.  It took me years on forums to grow out of wanting to win arguments on the internet, but Gene was capable of some self-serving stories.

Not trying to win anything here, and I don't doubt it - but I WAS alive when ToS originally aired and I remember the cultural climate very very well.

Yes - but what is considered extrapolation from what we now think of as possible is up for debate, yes?
Quote
I'm not sure I follow.

What I mean is, in science fiction, some pretty far-fetched things for the time the work was written have come to pass, so deciding at any given time what is or isn't feasible or even possible in the future depends entirely on one's interpretation of what is possible or feasible NOW.

the idea that 23rd Century Starfleet replicators would be unable to be programmed for Vulcan food is rather ridiculous.
Quote
Well, it appeared that they were all eating little cubes of foam rubber, so who can say?  Spock did eat what everyone else was having on a few alien planets (of earth-looking humanoids) a time or two...

As far as can be determined, perhaps - but who's to say those other humanoid people weren't capable of tailoring food to Spock's needs?  And BTW, the 'rubber cubes' is a good example of extrapolations-from-the-time-period thing - In the 60's, people thought future food would all be in cubes or pills  ;)
As far as pheromones go, the fact that they would be different does NOT automatically equate to repulsive.
Quote
But it IS almost certainly different than what turns me on.  My dog is far more biochemically compatible, is a good-looking beast IMO, and mostly even smells good to me - but the sexual chemistry just isn't there.  Different isn't bad or anything, but is a problem for the biochemistry.

Yet most cosmetic scents are derived from nature.  Ambergris is from whales, civet from cats, musk from deer.  Not to mention all the fruit and floral scents.  And just because YOU'RE not 'attracted' to your dog doesn't mean there aren't Humans who would be  :P

Remember, we're dealing with a VERY idealistic future vision; no prejudice, an embrace of difference.
Quote
This is precisely what I dislike about a lot of fanfic, pro and amateur, and even the latter half of the run of DS9; where's my optimistic future?  We already have Star Wars (and now SkylarTrek) for constant battles and ship porn.

Yeah, that's a bummer.  And I'm as guilty of that as any fan writer.  Love, peace and understanding gets awful boring when you're looking for good storylines.  And what is SkylarTrek?   
Quote
-But if no one has flaws, and there's no conflict, we're left with a very boring Picard speech.  SOME balance is called for.  I'm just sayin'.
And as I just said  :)

or in Sarek's case, more likely what pon farr wants.  ;)
Quote
As I said, it's an idea for some sexy fun  - if you haven't already, which I tend to doubt.   ;)

Well, it hasn't been written down yet.....

There would be any number of reasons why Sarek's childhood betrothed wasn't in the picture.  Of course, Valjiir deals with ALL this in its own way. :)
Quote
But of course.  -Though I'll bet this isn't all so finally and completely contradicted as to preclude the possibility that Sarek Had A Plan, if not in regard to the specific bits I'm speculating about.  [shrugs]  All I'm really at here is trying to look at everything we know about Spock the Vulcans and everything and make more sense of the whole kibosh.

More later...

Well, one of Valjiir's characters, Dr. Jade Han, has this idea that Sarek (and other Vulcans) either consciously or unconsciously realized that Vulcan is stagnating and wanted to introduce new genetic material into the population....
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 25, 2014, 02:47:13 AM
Mind you, at least the Blish adaption said Sargon had been there in the globe half a million years, and if the galaxy was seeded with humanoids of identical stock no MORE than 500,000 years ago on improbably similar planets, I don't buy for a second that their descendants would more like us than Tellerites after so long.  It's a suspend-belief-and-don't-think-too-hard-about-that-part thing, IMO...

Ah, but if Seeders were there all along GUIDING evolution on EACH planet so that the inhabitants WOULD remain genetically compatible, while still allowing for variations required by individual planetary environments.....
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 25, 2014, 03:05:50 AM
Well, last thing first, have you seen Dorothy Fontana's Season Four comics from IDW?  She has the Preservers, who transplanted Miramanee's people, connected to the Organians, and even has Aylebourne mention that the Organians used to enjoy a similar relationship with the Metrons that the Federation enjoy with the Klingons.

The Preservers clearly were active fairly recently, or Miramanee would not have been so clearly recognizable as generic Hollywood Native American --- and if you start thinking about all the parallel Earths, you have to assume VERY recently, or never ever think about the Yang planet or the Roman world.  Miri was already born two or three hundred years ago as of 2014, so no way that world was just a forgotten terraformed Earth colony, either.  You know, the conclusion that someone was running experiments very recently is inescapable, and strongly supports what you assert.

I have some thoughts about Sargon, the Preservers, Organia and the galactic barrier, but that's a different conversation than the one about Spock...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 25, 2014, 03:25:58 AM
Incidentally, I wanted to share this unrelated thing I posted back in August -
On that note, I have a theory about artificial gravity and warp drive in that universe...
Well, it starts with the plainly observable fact that everyone's artificial gravity is insanely reliable.
Clearly, none of this is original intent, but not only is it crazy reliable, but so cheap they put it everywhere, and every. single. species. that makes it into space has it.
My theory is, all pulp fiction takes place in a virtual reality.   Especially superhero fiction.  In these virtual realities, the laws of physics are just code.  You want a character/person to do extraordinary things, change the code.
Yeah, but it's more fun to pretend it's real and try to make sense of it.  A game at least as old as the existence of nerds.


So I conclude this:  in the ST universe, there's stuff about how gravity works that was discovered by the mid 90's.  Khan's ship had artificial gravity, and it wasn't spinning or accelerating.  So there's a way to make, dunno, a gravity deck plating cheaply that works for a very long time with little or no power input.  Every race discovers this application of the law of gravity pretty soon after they go into space.  The same, or similar, techniques make for a nifty non-reaction gravity drive, which Starfleet calls "impulse".  A slightly more sophisticated application involving the interaction of fields from two gravity generators distorts warps space-time and makes for a nifty FTL drive.  Thus, everyone and his mother has a FTL starship with two drive pylons of some sort.  Both types of drive take a lot more juice then the deck plates because the gravity fields, by the nature of the thing, are not static, but have to expand and contract and vary in intensity.  That Warp is probably by an order of magnitude more power-hungry than Impulse naturally follows.
-I understand that Dave is pretty scientific; I expect that he can back me up that this makes sense, given the assumption about the law of gravity and that FTL is possible.  We're certainly stuck with the FTL and ubiquitous, insanely reliable artificial gravity, so why not?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 25, 2014, 04:26:54 AM
I assume you've read Inside Star Trek and know Solo and Justman's version of why the network objected to Majel - I find it more credible.  And the Star Trek Fact Check Blog recently posted the text of the memo NBC sent all their shows while Star Trek was in production calling for more "[black and proud]" casting...  I'm being a nerd over an aside, aren't I?  :)

What I mean is, in science fiction, some pretty far-fetched things for the time the work was written have come to pass, so deciding at any given time what is or isn't feasible or even possible in the future depends entirely on one's interpretation of what is possible or feasible NOW.

Well, I certainly would rank mocking the show for getting right 60's science that's since been outdated with calling the (state-of-the-art) special effects "cheesy" (which all the kids and too many people our age do like there was a meeting where everyone agreed to all say "cheesy") gets up my nose, it does.

Anyway, the show actually did an awful job of getting the science of the time it was in production right, but then that's not the kind of science fiction it was, and it's fun to try to make sense anyway.  -Just don't ask me to straighten out The Galleo Seven now that we know what quasars are.

I'm avoiding some remarks about the definition of science fiction and Jonathan Swift here - trying to stay focused on Spock...


Yet most cosmetic scents are derived from nature.  Ambergris is from whales, civet from cats, musk from deer.  Not to mention all the fruit and floral scents.  And just because YOU'RE not 'attracted' to your dog doesn't mean there aren't Humans who would be  :P
And for that matter the dog is unmistakably more turned on by me than I am by her.   ;lol  Pheromones work more on the subconscious level than otherwise, and the mechanisms are poorly understood, as far as I know.  -It's not the same thing as smelling good like a perfume at all, though; pheromones smell like armpits and crotches and such on the conscious level, to the extent they get strong enough to notice consciously.  Bathing is still a good idea before a date.

And what is SkylarTrek?
Zackary Quinto played Skylar on Heroes.

Quote
As I said, it's an idea for some sexy fun  - if you haven't already, which I tend to doubt.   ;)

Well, it hasn't been written down yet.....

;lol


Well, one of Valjiir's characters, Dr. Jade Han, has this idea that Sarek (and other Vulcans) either consciously or unconsciously realized that Vulcan is stagnating and wanted to introduce new genetic material into the population....
This is utterly compatible with observation 1.) and what I've extrapolated from that.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 25, 2014, 05:42:19 AM
1).  Vulcans are probably extremely weak at creativity and imagination and things of that sort, which would actually be a severe limitation even in the sort of fields like pure science where their logical minds excel.
Part of this one was Mylochka's idea, though so long ago that we can't remember who thought of which parts.  I started thinking about this so long ago that it was from a gut feeling for which I couldn't have articulated a good defense.  Now, I'm 49 and can point out that Vulcans regulate their own thoughts so strictly that you just know they don't allow themselves the waste/luxury/stupidity of daydreaming.  You and I get a lot of good ideas out of the mostly stupid stuff our brain farts out when we're dreaming or looking at the sky not really thinking - mostly it's crap, but an occasional gold nugget of an idea survives closer scrutiny or is at least amenable to modification into something workable.

As it applies to science - a Vulcan would be less likely to have something like Archimedes "Eureka!" moment in the bathtub, wouldn't he?  Science history is surprisingly full of those moments of inspiration, like the fellow who finally figured out how to diagram the hexagonal structure of benzene molecules in a dream.  Vulcans would be grinds in their science - great with complex and dreary details, not as strong at developing new theories and new fields.  They'd make superior field and experimental researchers, provided they've thought of the right track, and you've definitely want one or two on your science team, even for purely theoretical work, but Dr. Sp'bob over there is never the guy with the "Eureka!", though he's of enormous help in fleshing out the new idea and making it work.

It's like the way evolution depends on some randomness creeping into the genome, and it implies that Vulcan science doesn't advance as quickly as one would have assumed for a race of Spocks.

Naturally, this would be an even greater problem in less inherently logical fields than science.  A Vulcan engineer or architect would tend to be superb at making truly functional designs for vehicles or building, but crap at true innovation.  When they see all the emotional races of inferior intellect muddling through with trial and error, it must rankle a bit.  It may even seem worth investigation.

It's likely that stupid Humans ever inventing anything that ever worked reliably at all bugs the average Vulcan to no end.  -Which brings me to--

2.)  Vulcans have trouble getting along with other races, who all seem to be emotional, comparatively irrational, and a little dim by comparison.  It appears that they think poorly of humans, for example, and it stands to reason that they would.
My uncle married into a family of very stupid white trash a long time ago; they're loud, they're crude, they're flighty and they're ignorant.  -Rather like a microcosm of Texas, only dumber and less mature.  Nobody but my uncle liked having them around at holidays, and far from wanting to be in a club that would have my step-cousins, if one of them was the president, I'd call the Southern Poverty Law Center and leave town at least until they were all in jail.

-And when you're as smart and in control of yourself as a Vulcan, what use are Humans and the rest?  Can you imagine how they must love being stuck in the United Federation of Earth's-in-Charge?


I'm suggesting that Spock might have been part of an investigation into the possibility of doing various things about observations 1.)-3.), just as the very best chess moves tend to do more than one thing at once (and we can count on Sarek being a grandmaster, can't we?).  More on that as I examine Spock's Starfleet career and his falling out with Sarek.  (Keep in mind that I'm not really married to what Spock was for - just that I'm sure there was a Big Plan to which he was crucial.  Also keep in mind that a Big Plan existing makes for a story, where no Big Plan, and nothing to his parent's relationship but boy meets girl and they had a baby, fullstop, doesn't.  More interesting my way.)


I've been sorta depressed for months, and I cannot guarantee, day-to-day, that staying in the mood to keep writing up installments will happen until I've been feeling like it for longer.  Feedback helps me stay motivated, so keep it comin'...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on February 25, 2014, 06:21:36 AM
I have to disagree about Vulcans not being creative. Spock is musical, and I'm sure there are Vulcan composers. You can write music that may be mathematically correct, but it takes creativity to make music that people want to listen to.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 25, 2014, 08:58:48 PM
I'm advancing Spock as a possible attempt to address Vulcan creativity issues, so Spock playing the lyrette in the rec room doesn't work as a counterexample. 

I do wonder why he plays an instrument - I suspect the fact that we only see him do it in company is significant.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on February 25, 2014, 09:12:29 PM
I'm advancing Spock as a possible attempt to address Vulcan creativity issues, so Spock playing the lyrette in the rec room doesn't work as a counterexample. 

I do wonder why he plays an instrument - I suspect the fact that we only see him do it in company is significant.
I thought he played it in his quarters, by himself, in "Amok Time."

But regardless if he plays it by himself or with others listening, it took creativity for somebody to compose what he plays.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 25, 2014, 09:23:11 PM
And we don't know if it was Vulcan compositions, do we?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 25, 2014, 09:27:19 PM
Well, last thing first, have you seen Dorothy Fontana's Season Four comics from IDW?  She has the Preservers, who transplanted Miramanee's people, connected to the Organians, and even has Aylebourne mention that the Organians used to enjoy a similar relationship with the Metrons that the Federation enjoy with the Klingons.

The Preservers clearly were active fairly recently, or Miramanee would have been so clearly recognizable as generic Hollywood Native American --- and if you start thinking about all the parallel Earths, you have to assume VERY recently, or never ever think about the Yang planet or the Roman world.  Miri was already born two or three hundred years ago, so I doubt that world was just a terraformed Earth colony, either.  You know, the conclusion that someone was running experiments very recently is inescapable, and strongly supports what you assert.

I have some thoughts about Sargon, the Preservers, Organia and the galactic barrier, but that's a different conversation than the one about Spock...

Nope, haven't seen it, but it all makes perfect sense to me, assuming that her Preservers and 'my' Seeders are the same thing.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 25, 2014, 09:33:10 PM
Incidentally, I wanted to share this unrelated thing I posted back in August -
On that note, I have a theory about artificial gravity and warp drive in that universe...
Well, it starts with the plainly observable fact that everyone's artificial gravity is insanely reliable.
Clearly, none of this is original intent, but not only is it crazy reliable, but so cheap they put it everywhere, and every. single. species. that makes it into space has it.
My theory is, all pulp fiction takes place in a virtual reality.   Especially superhero fiction.  In these virtual realities, the laws of physics are just code.  You want a character/person to do extraordinary things, change the code.
Yeah, but it's more fun to pretend it's real and try to make sense of it.  A game at least as old as the existence of nerds.


So I conclude this:  in the ST universe, there's stuff about how gravity works that was discovered by the mid 90's.  Khan's ship had artificial gravity, and it wasn't spinning or accelerating.  So there's a way to make, dunno, a gravity deck plating cheaply that works for a very long time with little or no power input.  Every race discovers this application of the law of gravity pretty soon after they go into space.  The same, or similar, techniques make for a nifty non-reaction gravity drive, which Starfleet calls "impulse".  A slightly more sophisticated application involving the interaction of fields from two gravity generators distorts warps space-time and makes for a nifty FTL drive.  Thus, everyone and his mother has a FTL starship with two drive pylons of some sort.  Both types of drive take a lot more juice then the deck plates because the gravity fields, by the nature of the thing, are not static, but have to expand and contract and vary in intensity.  That Warp is probably by an order of magnitude more power-hungry than Impulse naturally follows.
-I understand that Dave is pretty scientific; I expect that he can back me up that this makes sense, given the assumption about the law of gravity and that FTL is possible.  We're certainly stuck with the FTL and ubiquitous, insanely reliable artificial gravity, so why not?

My completely head-in-the-sand view ( ;) ) is that since ToS has portable anti-grav units, they must have a way to generate gravity too.  I'm not much into the nuts and bolts hardware type stuff - except to say that one thing that has always bugged me about the claim that FTL travel isn't possible because moving infinite mass (taking short-cuts with Einstein here) would take infinite energy is, if your fuel source is ON your ship, wouldn't the fuel have infinite mass too? And able to generate infinite energy from that infinite mass?  And therefore be able to move the ship?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 25, 2014, 09:42:05 PM
Well, basically, it's a matter of some infinities being larger than others.  The infinite mass of the whole ship is always going to be a larger infinity than just the fuel by exactly the proportion of their relative masses at rest.

Nope, haven't seen it, but it all makes perfect sense to me, assuming that her Preservers and 'my' Seeders are the same thing.
The comics had the disadvantage of not being very good, alas, but of course DC's opinion about the continuity is as close to cannon as we're going to get now.

I do think it's obvious that there's definitely something going on there, for all that Earth's fossil record says otherwise, and somebody was still playing parallel history games as recently as 200 years ago as of 2014.  It could be 15 different races doing different things, for all we know, but it's an interesting puzzle.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 25, 2014, 09:42:20 PM
I assume you've read Inside Star Trek and know Solo and Justman's version of why the network objected to Majel - I find it more credible.  And the Star Trek Fact Check Blog recently posted the text of the memo NBC sent all their shows while Star Trek was in production calling for more "[black and proud]" casting...  I'm being a nerd over an aside, aren't I?  :)

Perhaps you are, but that's ok.  I LIKE nerds!  And no, I haven't read Inside Star Trek.  Sorry.

Yet most cosmetic scents are derived from nature.  Ambergris is from whales, civet from cats, musk from deer.  Not to mention all the fruit and floral scents.  And just because YOU'RE not 'attracted' to your dog doesn't mean there aren't Humans who would be  :P
Quote
And for that matter the dog is unmistakably more turned on by me than I am by her.   ;lol  Pheromones work more on the subconscious level than otherwise, and the mechanisms are poorly understood, as far as I know.  -It's not the same thing as smelling good like a perfume at all, though; pheromones smell like armpits and crotches and such on the conscious level, to the extent they get strong enough to notice consciously.  Bathing is still a good idea before a date.[/Iquote]

True, but still, I think you're just being a nerd  :D

And what is SkylarTrek?
Quote
Zackary Quinto played Skylar on Heroes.

Ah, that's what confused me.  SKylar was Walter White's (expletive deleted) of a wife on Breaking Bad  Quinto's character on Heroes was SYlar.


Well, one of Valjiir's characters, Dr. Jade Han, has this idea that Sarek (and other Vulcans) either consciously or unconsciously realized that Vulcan is stagnating and wanted to introduce new genetic material into the population....
Quote
This is utterly compatible with observation 1.) and what I've extrapolated from that.

Go me!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 25, 2014, 09:43:43 PM
I have to disagree about Vulcans not being creative. Spock is musical, and I'm sure there are Vulcan composers. You can write music that may be mathematically correct, but it takes creativity to make music that people want to listen to.

I tend to agree with you about the creative thing - but perhaps Vulcan composers only write things that Vulcans would want to listen to.  ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 25, 2014, 09:47:14 PM
I haven't read Inside Star Trek.  Sorry.
Well, the network execs told Solo "She's his GIRLFRIEND".  I imagine that was the problem Nicols really faced, too.
Go me!
Yes.
Ah, that's what confused me.  SKylar was Walter White's (expletive deleted) of a wife on Breaking Bad  Quinto's character on Heroes was SYlar.
My (dumb)mistake about Skylar (but I found her awesome.  Walter was the bad guy, y'know.)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 25, 2014, 09:55:55 PM
1).  Vulcans are probably extremely weak at creativity and imagination and things of that sort, which would actually be a severe limitation even in the sort of fields like pure science where their logical minds excel.
Part of this one was Mylochka's idea, though so long ago that we can't remember who thought of which parts.  I started thinking about this so long ago that it was from a gut feeling for which I couldn't have articulated a good defense.  Now, I'm 49 and can point out that Vulcans regulate their own thoughts so strictly that you just know they don't allow themselves the waste/luxury/stupidity of daydreaming.  You and I get a lot of good ideas out of the mostly stupid stuff our brain farts out when we're dreaming or looking at the sky not really thinking - mostly it's crap, but an occasional gold nugget of an idea survives closer scrutiny or is at least amenable to modification into something workable.

As it applies to science - a Vulcan would be less likely to have something like Archimedes "Eureka!" moment in the bathtub, wouldn't he?  Science history is surprisingly full of those moments of inspiration, like the fellow who finally figured out how to diagram the hexagonal structure of benzene molecules in a dream.  Vulcans would be grinds in their science - great with complex and dreary details, not as strong at developing new theories and new fields.  They'd make superior field and experimental researchers, provided they've thought of the right track, and you've definitely want one or two on your science team, even for purely theoretical work, but Dr. Sp'bob over there is never the guy with the "Eureka!", though he's of enormous help in fleshing out the new idea and making it work.

Of course, you realize you're assuming that Vulcan thought processes and creativity work like Humans' do....  I'm not certain it would.  Perhaps it's just as likely that the very quickness of a Vulcan's thought processes would produce the 'eureka' you're talking about - something that would look like a 'leap of intuition' to Humans, but would in reality be a very rapid train of logical thought, just as Human intuition would look like 'eureka' to them.

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It's like the way evolution depends on some randomness creeping into the genome, and it implies that Vulcan science doesn't advance as quickly as one would have assumed for a race of Spocks.

Unless it was the Vulcans who came up with the solution to the gravity problem you mentioned...

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Naturally, this would be an even greater problem in less inherently logical fields than science.  A Vulcan engineer or architect would tend to be superb at making truly functional designs for vehicles or building, but crap at true innovation.  When they see all the emotional races of inferior intellect muddling through with trial and error, it must rankle a bit.  It may even seem worth investigation.

It's likely that stupid Humans ever inventing anything that ever worked reliably at all bugs the average Vulcan to no end.
  -Which brings me to--

2.)  Vulcans have trouble getting along with other races, who all seem to be emotional, comparatively irrational, and a little dim by comparison.  It appears that they think poorly of humans, for example, and it stands to reason that they would.
My uncle married into a family of very stupid white trash a long time ago; they're loud, they're crude, they're flighty and they're ignorant.  -Rather like a microcosm of Texas, only dumber and less mature.  Nobody but my uncle liked having them around at holidays, and far from wanting to be in a club that would have my step-cousins, if one of them was the president, I'd call the Southern Poverty Law Center and leave town at least until they were all in jail.

-And when you're as smart and in control of yourself as a Vulcan, what use are Humans and the rest?  Can you imagine how they must love being stuck in the United Federation of Earth's-in-Charge?

I have one thing to say to that: IDIC

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I'm suggesting that Spock might have been part of an investigation into the possibility of doing various things about observations 1.)-3.), just as the very best chess moves tend to do more than one thing at once (and we can count on Sarek being a grandmaster, can't we?).  More on that as I examine Spock's Starfleet career and his falling out with Sarek.  (Keep in mind that I'm not really married to what Spock was for - just that I'm sure there was a Big Plan to which he was crucial.  Also keep in mind that a Big Plan existing makes for a story, where no Big Plan, and nothing to his parent's relationship but boy meets girl and they had a baby, fullstop, doesn't.  More interesting my way.)

Or my way. which has all sorts of high melodrama involving sudden pon farr many parsecs from one's intended..... ;lol


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I've been sorta depressed for months, and I cannot guarantee, day-to-day, that staying in the mood to keep writing up installments will happen until I've been feeling like it for longer.  Feedback helps me stay motivated, so keep it comin'...

Poor baby!  I'll do my best...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 25, 2014, 09:59:15 PM
I'm advancing Spock as a possible attempt to address Vulcan creativity issues, so Spock playing the lyrette in the rec room doesn't work as a counterexample. 

I do wonder why he plays an instrument - I suspect the fact that we only see him do it in company is significant.

I think I remember him playing in his cabin alone once: have to check it out, but I think it was in Amok Time.  But addressing the main point: surely there would be no logic in denying the calm state that can result from the ordered emotions that music can bring.  Just because Spock is neurotic about 'pure logic' doesn't mean ALL Vulcans are.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 25, 2014, 10:00:07 PM
And we don't know if it was Vulcan compositions, do we?

We don't know it wasn't, either.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 25, 2014, 10:05:40 PM
surely there would be no logic in denying the calm state that can result from the ordered emotions that music can bring.
IF -and I grant that I'm the one that keeps harping on not assuming the half-breed is typical- Spock's constant pretense that he's completely suppressed his feelings is representative of most Vulcans, it is illogical for them to enage in relaxing activities.  Witness his remarks on vactions in Shore Leave.  It's all of a piece.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 25, 2014, 10:35:33 PM
I think in the end, it comes down to what you assume about Vulcans as a whole.  If they are as cold and in control as their reputation would have it, my logical scans.  If they're all to varying to degrees like Spock, with a great deal of restraint in affect -and even internally- but still having some perceptible emotions, and, it follows, less control of their own thought processes, then the case for poor Vulcan imagination is weakened by no little bit.

I note that I've always tended toward the latter position, as Spock, Sarek, T'pau, T'pring and Stonn all, IMO, clearly displayed emotions, if expressed understatedly.  -Significant, given how briefly we knew any of them but Spock, and especially in the case of VIPs like Sarek and T'Pau.  (Incidentally, all the Vulcans in fake Star Trek are more of the same.)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 26, 2014, 12:28:45 AM
Funny coincidence that this particular article showed up in the science news today: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7325.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7325.0)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 26, 2014, 04:12:03 PM
Ah, that's what confused me.  SKylar was Walter White's (expletive deleted) of a wife on Breaking Bad  Quinto's character on Heroes was SYlar.
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My (dumb)mistake about Skylar (but I found her awesome.  Walter was the bad guy, y'know.)

Yeah, I know, but Skylar was about as self-serving and as dishonest with both Walt and herself as Carmela Soprano was with Tony.  Jesse lives! *hee hee!*
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 26, 2014, 04:13:16 PM
Go me!
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Yes.

 :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 26, 2014, 04:23:36 PM
surely there would be no logic in denying the calm state that can result from the ordered emotions that music can bring.
IF -and I grant that I'm the one that keeps harping on not assuming the half-breed is typical- Spock's constant pretense that he's completely suppressed his feelings is representative of most Vulcans, it is illogical for them to enage in relaxing activities.  Witness his remarks on vactions in Shore Leave.  It's all of a piece.

And that's a HUGE "IF" in my book (or on my website *giggle*)  We see that other Vulcans express emotions (Stonn gets angry and impulsive, T'Pau's eyes flash with anger, her voice nearly drips contempt, Sarek's cold non-acknowledgement of his son speaks volumes of resentment and stubbornness.  It's clear Vulcans have emotions and where logical to do so, Vulcans express emotions.  It's only neurotic Spock who has to be so adamant about suppressing his.  And IMO playing chess is obviously relaxing for Spock.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 26, 2014, 04:32:53 PM
I think in the end, it comes down to what you assume about Vulcans as a whole.  If they are as cold and in control as their reputation would have it, my logical scans.  If they're all to varying to degrees like Spock, with a great deal of restraint in affect -and even internally- but still having some perceptible emotions, and, it follows, less control of their own thought processes, then the case for poor Vulcan imagination is weakened by no little bit.

IMO, the latter case, exactly.

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I note that I've always tended toward the latter position, as Spock, Sarek, T'pau, T'pring and Stonn all, IMO, clearly displayed emotions, if expressed understatedly.  -Significant, given how briefly we knew any of them but Spock, and especially in the case of VIPs like Sarek and T'Pau.  (Incidentally, all the Vulcans in fake Star Trek are more of the same.)

Well thank the gods for that!  I was fixin' to smack you up side your head!  :D  I, too, think that Vulcans DO have emotions (powerful ones, if we're to accept what is said about Vulcan's warrior past).  What Surak brought was not a way to eliminate emotion, but rather to subordinate it to logic; therefore, when it is logical to experience and express those emotions, Vulcans - quite logically - would.  Surak's Way would NOT have emotion play NO part in Vulcan life and decision, but would, rather, give emotion its proper place (which, for Surak, meant farther down on the list than would be usual for most Humans, but...)  We see this in T;Pring, Stonn, T'Pau, Sarek - but not in Spock.  Therefore, it seems logical ( :P ) to surmise that Spock is the odd man out, so to speak.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 26, 2014, 04:33:49 PM
Funny coincidence that this particular article showed up in the science news today: [url]http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7325.0[/url] ([url]http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7325.0[/url])


See, I KNEW I was right!  ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 26, 2014, 04:58:07 PM
So by her testimony, I was right about the role creativity plays in even the driest of science - for that matter, an interview I posted later with a theoretical physicist had much about growing up in the 50s and his dreams of being an astronaut and stuff like that.  Interviews with scientists often do.

...

I wonder about Vulcan dreaming; you get the vague impression that Spock does a lot trance/power-napping and probably skips much of the dream sleep.  Are Vulcans so like us that it's even safe to assume they dream?

I note that I've always tended toward the latter position, as Spock, Sarek, T'pau, T'pring and Stonn all, IMO, clearly displayed emotions, if expressed understatedly.  -Significant, given how briefly we knew any of them but Spock, and especially in the case of VIPs like Sarek and T'Pau.  (Incidentally, all the Vulcans in fake Star Trek are more of the same.)

Well thank the gods for that!  I was fixin' to smack you up side your head!  :D  I, too, think that Vulcans DO have emotions (powerful ones, if we're to accept what is said about Vulcan's warrior past).  What Surak brought was not a way to eliminate emotion, but rather to subordinate it to logic; therefore, when it is logical to experience and express those emotions, Vulcans - quite logically - would.  Surak's Way would NOT have emotion play NO part in Vulcan life and decision, but would, rather, give emotion its proper place (which, for Surak, meant farther down on the list than would be usual for most Humans, but...)  We see this in T;Pring, Stonn, T'Pau, Sarek - but not in Spock.  Therefore, it seems logical ( :P ) to surmise that Spock is the odd man out, so to speak.
;nod

And thus in my perception of Spock, he works harder at it than most Vulcans.  Humans are hardly more passionate than pre-Reformation Vulcan are reputed to be, so that shouldn't be his problem.  But the brain is a very complex system, and as Mylochka can attest, small alterations change a lot - undisciplined natural Vulcan psychology may be just different enough from Human that some very minor Human elements in his brain structure would prove quite troublesome.  One of the first things to go in a brain-injured person, by comparison, is emotional control.

And given that leaders and that sort of high-achieving public figure get held to a higher standard, in the kind of important family we surmise that Spock comes from, he'd have been under atypical pressure to try harder to begin with.  Poor boy got at least a double dose.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 26, 2014, 08:17:40 PM
I wonder about Vulcan dreaming; you get the vague impression that Spock does a lot trance/power-napping and probably skips much of the dream sleep.  Are Vulcans so like us that it's even safe to assume they dream?

I certainly assume so - though with meditation and the like, maybe they don't. Maybe they don't even 'sleep' like we do - that is for several hours at a stretch.  Hmmmm.....


I note that I've always tended toward the latter position, as Spock,

Well thank the gods for that!  I was fixin' to smack you up side your head!  :D  I, too, think that Vulcans DO have emotions (powerful ones, if we're to accept what is said about Vulcan's warrior past).  What Surak brought was not a way to eliminate emotion, but rather to subordinate it to logic; therefore, when it is logical to experience and express those emotions, Vulcans - quite logically - would.  Surak's Way would NOT have emotion play NO part in Vulcan life and decision, but would, rather, give emotion its proper place (which, for Surak, meant farther down on the list than would be usual for most Humans, but...)  We see this in T;Pring, Stonn, T'Pau, Sarek - but not in Spock.  Therefore, it seems logical ( :P ) to surmise that Spock is the odd man out, so to speak.
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;nod

And thus in my perception of Spock, he works harder at it than most Vulcans.  Humans are hardly more passionate than pre-Reformation Vulcan are reputed to be, so that shouldn't be his problem.  But the brain is a very complex system, and as Mylochka can attest, small alterations change a lot - undisciplined natural Vulcan psychology may be just different enough from Human that some very minor Human elements in his brain structure would prove quite troublesome.  One of the first things to go in a brain-injured person, by comparison, is emotional control.

And given that leaders and that sort of high-achieving public figure get held to a higher standard, in the kind of important family we surmise that Spock comes from, he'd have been under atypical pressure to try harder to begin with.  Poor boy got at least a double dose.

Indeed.  And I know about the brain-injury, emotional control thing:  my son-in-law was hit from behind late in 2012.  He was at a stoplight and got rammed at 55 mph.  The only thing that saved his life was the fact that he was in a Chevy Silverado pickup truck.  The bed of the truck was smashed nearly flat, but Sean lived, and even walked away - but he's had serious back, neck and shoulder problems with almost constant migraines ever since.

But I digress.

I agree and can imagine the pressure Spock is under all the time.  Oddly, I imagine that the Human parts of his consciousness would actually help with that, reminding him to take a deep breath, as it were, and that he is loved by Amanda no matter how far he falls from Vulcan's or his own ideals.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 26, 2014, 08:25:40 PM
It really bothers me that the people he serves with give him such a hard time claiming that he's cold when his eternal internal struggle is precisely the opposite.  It adds injury to bigotry, y'know?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 27, 2014, 12:20:03 AM
That does seem to be mostly Dr. McCoy, and that's clearly an only half-serious friendly enemy type of bantering - in which Spock gives as good as he gets, I might add.  :)  There are other isolated instances, of course: Garrovick in Balance of Terror and some of the crew in Galileo 7 most notably.  Though I suppose a wider pattern is implied by the fact that Kirk uses the idea to get Spock's attention in What Are Little Girls Made Of to expose his android double, and in This Side of Paradise to get Spock angry enough to break the influence of the spores.  So I would hazard a guess that outside the Enterprise Spock's had it pretty rough.  After all, in Journey to Bable Amanda is moved to tears recalling how the other boys teased Spock as a child, an image which is made manifest in the animated Yesteryear.

Can we all say "Poor hybrid baby!"?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 27, 2014, 12:20:58 AM
BTW Cher, I've got some ideas about promoting Valjiir and getting the fan community back together, if you're interested...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 27, 2014, 12:21:39 AM
I certainly am!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 27, 2014, 12:24:45 AM
That does seem to be mostly Dr. McCoy, and that's clearly an only half-serious friendly enemy type of bantering - in which Spock gives as good as he gets, I might add.  :)  There are other isolated instances, of course: Garrovick in Balance of Terror and some of the crew in Galileo 7 most notably.  Though I suppose a wider pattern is implied by the fact that Kirk uses the idea to get Spock's attention in What Are Little Girls Made Of to expose his android double, and in This Side of Paradise to get Spock angry enough to break the influence of the spores.  So I would hazard a guess that outside the Enterprise Spock's had it pretty rough.  After all, in Journey to Bable Amanda is moved to tears recalling how the other boys teased Spock as a child, an image which is made manifest in the animated Yesteryear.

Can we all say "Poor hybrid baby!"?
A lot of it's frenemy stuff, for sure, with McCoy - but you can't really claim he wasn't serious in episodes like That Which Survives, Paradise Syndrome and The Tholian Web...  God bless Kirk that he never did it single time without it being for a really good reason.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 27, 2014, 12:34:57 AM
BTW Cher, I've got some ideas about promoting Valjiir and getting the fan community back together, if you're interested...
I certainly am!
First thing, link your site in your sigline, and at every forum you have any posts.  Besides the people who click on it, it's that many copies of the URL for the search engines.  SEO ;b;.

Second, get yourself a forum so they can talk to each other and not just you.  Activity creates more activity.  I offer this thread as a pilot project, and if you start pointing people here and we outgrow the thread, I'll make a Star Trek subforum for Valjiir fans to take over, and listen to your druthers about how it's run.  If that works out well enough, you probably will want to host your own forum on your site - Dave ought to be able to take care of the technical side, and I recommend asking Valka to run it for you; she's well-qualified.

There's details, but that's the broad overview...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on February 27, 2014, 02:05:22 AM
I will hop right over to TrekBBS and add the link to my sig. :)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 27, 2014, 02:13:25 AM
...I just googled Valjiir, and found out that this thread is the second hit  :o  My best guess is that it's because every Mylochka post says Valijiir in her sig, where I told her to link the site.  I believe you guys are active places like Trek BBS - if you have always had sigs, and you added Valjiir links to them, and if it works there and other places you post the way it does on the vBulletin and SMF forum software I'm familiar with --- I've been building this here Alpha Centauri forum for two years and twenty days, focused on a single game from 1997 without a lot of aggressive recruiting, and we do really well, considering that and the lethargic depressed spells I get; the single most helpful thing I ever did was siglink at my last forum.  That was 36,000 copies of AC2's URL for Google to find at one stroke.  We do okay on the search engines.

A Valjiir FaceBook page - you need not rupture yourself on that one, but post some pictures and links to existing content on the site, and post links every time there's any new content.  If you get FB comments, the more time you're willing to put into replying, the more the page will grow and serve as a promotional device, and maybe a fan community nexus of its own.  FaceBook is FaceBook, and there's a billion possible eyes to draw your way.  FaceBook has some cross-promotional buttons and tools, as my co-owner installed here, and I cannot recommend using; I think they slow down pageloads, and make it entirely too easy for Big FaceBook Brother to track me, which it totally does.

You already have a Valjiir YouTube account, and I assume everything's linked back to the Valjiir site.  All of that the traffic will bear, though I assume you already know, as an adult, not to ever read YouTube comments at all.

You've got a lot of content, a lot of it art, which is ideal to spread around casually as promotional material.  Some places, according to your judgement, you may want some sort of "Sexy Star Trek fun" tag to warn of the NSFW aspects.  -Link back to the site everywhere, shamelessly.-

Eventually, it may be worth it to you to dig up the old mailing lists and do a mass postcarding with some URLs to see who's still at the old address, alive and on the internet - of course skipping all the people you can just email.

If it starts attracting people, do all you can to encourage fans to pitch in on getting the word out and getting fan community stuff done.  You are Queen Valjiir, and your job should be to make Valjiir and rally the troops, who do all the promotional/community-building work you can possibly manage to delegate.  You can do this.  A modest effort should yield tangible results; more time/effort should do more, though the elementary bits tend to give more bang for your time buck.

[ninja'd]
I will hop right over to TrekBBS and add the link to my sig. :)
;b; See?  Valka is a fan who misses the old gang and took initiative; imagine if you had 15 here and encouraged them?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on February 27, 2014, 02:27:03 AM
It's added. I'm active in the TOS forum there among other ST areas, the general media forums, the Doctor Who forum, and a couple of off-topic forums (one of which is NSFW). So there should be a decent cross-section of TOS fans who will see my sig.

Gotta be honest - I haven't been very active in the fanfic forum there since so much of the activity has to do with monthly competitions and I consider myself lucky to think up something vaguely witty for the caption contests.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 27, 2014, 02:31:21 AM
We have a fiction forum here, BTW - I would object to it being drowned with Valjiir stories, but I'd love to have some...  -Link back to the site, of course.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 27, 2014, 07:41:04 PM
(http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4232.0;attach=9255)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 27, 2014, 11:22:11 PM
BTW Cher, I've got some ideas about promoting Valjiir and getting the fan community back together, if you're interested...
I certainly am!
First thing, link your site in your sigline, and at every forum you have any posts.  Besides the people who click on it, it's that many copies of the URL for the search engines.  SEO ;b;.

Second, get yourself a forum so they can talk to each other and not just you.  Activity creates more activity.  I offer this thread as a pilot project, and if you start pointing people here and we outgrow the thread, I'll make a Star Trek subforum for Valjiir fans to take over, and listen to your druthers about how it's run.  If that works out well enough, you probably will want to host your own forum on your site - Dave ought to be able to take care of the technical side, and I recommend asking Valka to run it for you; she's well-qualified.

There's details, but that's the broad overview...

Mylochka HAS told you how much of a Luddite I am, right?  I have no idea how to "link" the site in my "sigline"  Apart from being a Luddite, I'm also a fairly extreme introvert except with people I already "know" (like you  :) )  I don't really know how to interact outside of specific topics.  :-[  And Valka, PLEASE feel free to - uh - do what BUncle said.  I wish I could point more people to this forum - but The Gang doesn't count and I realty know very few other people.  Sorry :(
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 27, 2014, 11:24:49 PM
A lot of it's frenemy stuff, for sure, with McCoy - but you can't really claim he wasn't serious in episodes like That Which Survives, Paradise Syndrome and The Tholian Web...  God bless Kirk that he never did it single time without it being for a really good reason.

True, true... sometimes I think McCoy falls into his 'good ol' country boy' schtick a bit too hard, especially when he doesn't think Spock is living up to his own compassionate standards.  And yes, we all bless the gods for Jim (especially Jade, but that's another topic  ;)).
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 28, 2014, 12:03:00 AM
To do the siglink here at AC2:  Click on your username to go to your profile.  Click on "Forum Profile", the second entry under "Modify Profile", near the top in the left sidebar.  Add something like VALJIIR: Sexy Star Trek fun (http://www.valjiir.us/valjiir.html) to your sig line.  (Hit quote to see the code for how I did that, and you can simply copy/paste that hyperlink line into your sig with the display text altered as you please.

The exact format for hyperlinking sigs at other forums will differ according to what forum software they use, but shouldn't by much, and I believe you are married to someone who computes for a living - I am a competent user, not at all teh haxxor, and this is easy stuff to master, believe me, and A Thing Worth Doing.  -Of course Valka can tell you the precise hyperlink code for Trek BBS.


The easiest and most time/effort-rewarding single thing you can do to direct fans here is to announce prominently on your site:

Sign up to chat with us about Valjiir (and anything else original Star Trek) here! (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=4177.0)


And if you drop a line to anyone, anyone you're comfortable pinging and likely to know how to contact anyone else and ask them to do same and ask them to do same, a chain-reaction could happen.  Your fans miss the old days, and want to hear for you, after all.  -But definitely the prominent announcement' top of the main page for maximum effect.  ;)


P.S. "sigline" is where you have "Screw destiny. But give it flowers first or it feels used." (to which I'd quibble "Dinner and a movie first; a call and flowers the next day).
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: FoldInTheWolf on February 28, 2014, 12:26:41 AM
Hiya everyone. This is the "Dave" y'all been talking about. I finally got connected in.

Some random thoughts ...

Cher and I are terrible at networking and publicity and stuff like that. We have Facebook pages, but can never think of anything to post there, both because we can't imagine anyone would be interested, and because we don't necessarily want the world to know when we're going to the store or in bed with a bad case of indigestion. It's even worse in Real Life (tm). We used to be more outgoing, but a few nasty trolls cured us of that.

I have a Twitter account, which I seldom use, for similar reasons. It must frustrate my publisher and editor, because I suck at publicizing my novels (yes, I have three professional novels, one currently out-pf-print but in the process of hopefully being re-issued).

All this to say -- I love the suggestions, and I encourage more of them, and I can do the techie stuff, but Cher and I would be really bad at outreach.  :(

Beyond that -- I hope to get involved in the conversations here. If I can work up the courage to stick my nose any farther in.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 28, 2014, 01:30:21 AM
Oh, I TOTALLY grok the whole trouble-with-breaking-the-ice thing, even if it doesn't show online.

One advantage of doing the forum thing here, is that I'll look out for you, so no trolling is gonna happen for long.  For now, just hyperlink in all the forum sigs you can (Cher, if I wasn't clear before, at a lot of forums, a sig change is retroactive for every post you've ever made there, so no pressure to make new posts just for that) to make the Valjiir (http://[url=http://www.valjiir.us/valjiir.html) site more visible, not least on Google - and a notice there to direct fans to chat here (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=4177.0).  You can worry about whether to tackle more aggressive measures later.  As I mentioned last night -before I got two "shy" responses- you really want to delegate all the work you can to the fan community as it materializes, anyway.  I was thinking more in terms of many hands lightening the work, but the shy thing is a good reason to try that, too, definitely.  It might not take much at all to get the ball rolling.  Given a few active fans, the Facebook Valjiir page and other forms of outreach might happen without you having to lift a finger.

It's worked really well for me, and that's with fans of an old game we all like, not fans of me - that would certainly have made it easier.


Do feel free to poke around this subforum -there's a general Star Trek thread on the first page with this-and-that that ought to prove of interest, and read/comment wherever and whenever as the spirit moves you.  Our rules really amount to just "act like an adult".  Enjoy.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 28, 2014, 01:41:57 AM
([url]http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4232.0;attach=9255[/url])
-Also, the above is by me, because I know the first two real ST novels, and I am teh funny.  I will allow the posting of lols and attaboys, though I am also teh modest. :danc:
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 28, 2014, 01:55:55 AM
...I just googled Valjiir, and found out that this thread is the second hit  :o  My best guess is that it's because every Mylochka post says Valijiir in her sig, where I told her to link the site.  I believe you guys are active places like Trek BBS - if you have always had sigs, and you added Valjiir links to them, and if it works there and other places you post the way it does on the vBulletin and SMF forum software I'm familiar with --- I've been building this here Alpha Centauri forum for two years and twenty days, focused on a single game from 1997 without a lot of aggressive recruiting, and we do really well, considering that and the lethargic depressed spells I get; the single most helpful thing I ever did was siglink at my last forum.  That was 36,000 copies of AC2's URL for Google to find at one stroke.  We do okay on the search engines.

A Valjiir FaceBook page - you need not rupture yourself on that one, but post some pictures and links to existing content on the site, and post links every time there's any new content.  If you get FB comments, the more time you're willing to put into replying, the more the page will grow and serve as a promotional device, and maybe a fan community nexus of its own.  FaceBook is FaceBook, and there's a billion possible eyes to draw your way.  FaceBook has some cross-promotional buttons and tools, as my co-owner installed here, and I cannot recommend using; I think they slow down pageloads, and make it entirely too easy for Big FaceBook Brother to track me, which it totally does.

I'll consider it, but I really don't like Facebook.

Quote
You already have a Valjiir YouTube account, and I assume everything's linked back to the Valjiir site.  All of that the traffic will bear, though I assume you already know, as an adult, not to ever read YouTube comments at all.

Dave explained what "linked back' means, and I don't know if that's at the YouTube account.  I'll ask him to help me figure that out.


Quote
You've got a lot of content, a lot of it art, which is ideal to spread around casually as promotional material.  Some places, according to your judgement, you may want some sort of "Sexy Star Trek fun" tag to warn of the NSFW aspects.  -Link back to the site everywhere, shamelessly.-

I don't go to many places on the internet, but I'll try to keep that in mind.
Quote
Eventually, it may be worth it to you to dig up the old mailing lists and do a mass postcarding with some URLs to see who's still at the old address, alive and on the internet - of course skipping all the people you can just email.

I don't have access to those.  After the falling-out with my original co-author, more than 25 years ago, my former editor decided, in the interest of "not taking sides" to have nothing more to do with anything related to Valjiir. So that's a no-go.
 
Quote
If it starts attracting people, do all you can to encourage fans to pitch in on getting the word out and getting fan community stuff done.  You are Queen Valjiir, and your job should be to make Valjiir and rally the troops, who do all the promotional/community-building work you can possibly manage to delegate.  You can do this.  A modest effort should yield tangible results; more time/effort should do more, though the elementary bits tend to give more bang for your time buck.

  Thanks for the Queen Valjiir thing :-[.  As I said, I don't do much internetting (if that's a word) and I have like zero 'real world' friends (hell, aside from Dave, even my family doesn't go to the Valjiir site) so.... *shrug*  But I'll see what I can do,

[ninja'd]
I will hop right over to TrekBBS and add the link to my sig. :)
;b; See?  Valka is a fan who misses the old gang and took initiative; imagine if you had 15 here and encouraged them?
[/quote]
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 28, 2014, 01:56:48 AM
We have a fiction forum here, BTW - I would object to it being drowned with Valjiir stories, but I'd love to have some...  -Link back to the site, of course.

Any suggestions as to which stories?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 28, 2014, 02:12:30 AM
Hmm.  Strictly as far as the pre-existing membership here goes, guy gamers would usually respond better to adventure than sexy fun, so the more adventure-y stories.  Sis's baby doomsday story, for example.


The YouTube video I looked at did have a link to the site in the description - there's a way to have it pop up in the vid, too, but I haven't the foggiest about how to do that.  Good idea, though.

I have no use for FaceBook either, (or Twitter or anything like that - the popularity of that kind of site is a complete mystery to me) but - a billion eyes, and one of those places -YouTube, too- Google-Bing-etc. love and seem to rank a hit from higher.  I just talked Mylochka into doing the FB Valjiir page when she's feeling better -she does FB- so forget that one.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 28, 2014, 02:19:44 AM
To do the siglink here at AC2:  Click on your username to go to your profile.  Click on "Forum Profile", the second entry under "Modify Profile", near the top in the left sidebar.  Add something like VALJIIR: Sexy Star Trek fun ([url]http://www.valjiir.us/valjiir.html[/url]) to your sig line.  (Hit quote to see the code for how I did that, and you can simply copy/paste that hyperlink line into your sig with the display text altered as you please.

The exact format for hyperlinking sigs at other forums will differ according to what forum software they use, but shouldn't by much, and I believe you are married to someone who computes for a living - I am a competent user, not at all teh haxxor, and this is easy stuff to master, believe me, and A Thing Worth Doing.  -Of course Valka can tell you the precise hyperlink code for Trek BBS.


The easiest and most time/effort-rewarding single thing you can do to direct fans here is to announce prominently on your site:

Sign up to chat with us about Valjiir (and anything else original Star Trek) here! ([url]http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=4177.0[/url])


And if you drop a line to anyone, anyone you're comfortable pinging and likely to know how to contact anyone else and ask them to do same and ask them to do same, a chain-reaction could happen.  Your fans miss the old days, and want to hear for you, after all.  -But definitely the prominent announcement' top of the main page for maximum effect.  ;)


P.S. "sigline" is where you have "Screw destiny. But give it flowers first or it feels used." (to which I'd quibble "Dinner and a movie first; a call and flowers the next day).


Ok, I did what I could. Thanks. (see sigline, below  :) )
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 28, 2014, 02:22:36 AM
([url]http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4232.0;attach=9255[/url])
-Also, the above is by me, because I know the first two real ST novels, and I am teh funny.  I will allow the posting of lols and attaboys, though I am also teh modest. :danc:


*snort, snicker, giggle chuckle guffaw!*  And even though I didn't know the names of the first ST novels, it's funny anyway.  Go you!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on February 28, 2014, 02:23:20 AM
Hiya everyone. This is the "Dave" y'all been talking about. I finally got connected in.
Greetings - you're the kind person who told me about valjiir.us on TrekBBS!  :D My name there is Timewalker.

The BBCode is the same for most forums when it comes to posting links.

This is what my current sig looks like there (clicking on the words "Valjiir Continuum" takes the person directly to your website):

Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 28, 2014, 02:28:10 AM
Ok, I did what I could. Thanks. (see sigline, below  :) )
VALJIIR: Sexy Star Trek fun and drama ([url]http://www.valjiir.us/valjiir.html[/url])
That's 62 more copies of the URL on the internet for Google to find, all by itself. ;b;
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 28, 2014, 03:28:20 AM
The BBCode is the same for most forums when it comes to posting links.
In which case, the code would go [ URL=http://"http://www.valjiir.us/valjiir.html"]VALJIIR: Sexy  Star Trek fun and drama[/URL] (with the space between the first bracket and URL removed). Some places might want <URL="http://www.valjiir.us/valjiir.html">VALJIIR: Sexy  Star Trek fun and drama</URL> , I think.


And again, I DO get the shy - I'm a lonely person who does all his socializing here.  Teh innerwebz can be rough, and I have a few war stories -nasty ones- but I'm determined to have this be a safe place fo' my nerdz. ;nod
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: FoldInTheWolf on February 28, 2014, 04:55:46 AM
Greetings - you're the kind person who told me about valjiir.us on TrekBBS!  :D My name there is Timewalker.

Good to re-meet you!

If I remember right, I did a Google to see if I could find anyone on the Interwebs who was looking for Valjiir, and I found your question on that forum. I then registered for long enough to tell you about the site :)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 28, 2014, 08:09:32 PM
-Just don't ask me to straighten out The Galleo Seven now that we know what quasars are.
On reflection, I take that back.  A quasar is a mega black hole at the center of a galaxy that's consuming a lot of matter -which gets hot and bright from friction- and the pressure pushes a jet out at the poles, presumably along magnetic field lines.  There is indeed a (not feeding as of about 30,000 years ago) huge black hole at the center of the Milky Way, but they clearly weren't at the center of the galaxy and what they called a "quasar" in that episode can't have been one.  You don't want to be within a few thousand light years of a million-solar-mass black hole that's feeding, and you wouldn't just stumble over one by accident, because they're extremely bright.  That is the problem with making sense of it, though I note that they changed the special effect from something nebulous to looking like a green feeding black hole in  the remastered version, accretion disk, jets and all.

Black holes aren't incredibly rare, and the first one discovered, Cygnus X-1, was detected by the x-rays it gave off from syphoning gas off a close binary star companion.

Well, I posted an article yesterday about black holes: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7391.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7391.0)  In it, astrophysicists refer to much smaller than galactic center-scale feeding black holes as "mini quasars".  The difference is only a matter of scale.  If you allow that the thing in The Galleo Seven was a regular roughly solar-mass feeding black hole, perhaps one that was feeding on a larger scale than previously examined up close, with a jet pointing away from any Federation worlds and the "planetoid" orbiting a binary companion - the inhabitable planetoid is quite unlikely, but possible, and assuming (plausably) that everyone just dropped the "mini" and it makes enough sense for Star Trek.  (The natives probably aren't native, though, and might not have anything like a million years to move to a planet in a stable system.  No telling what the Preservers were up to there.)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on February 28, 2014, 09:55:55 PM
-Just don't ask me to straighten out The Galleo Seven now that we know what quasars are.
On reflection, I take that back.  A quasar is a mega black hole at the center of a galaxy that's consuming a lot of matter -which gets hot and bright from friction- and the pressure pushes a jet out at the poles, presumably along magnetic field lines.  There is indeed a (not feeding as of about 30,000 years ago) huge black hole at the center of the Milky Way, but they clearly weren't at the center of the galaxy and what they called a "quasar" in that episode can't have been one.  You don't want to be within a few thousand light years of a million-solar-mass black hole that's feeding, and you wouldn't just stumble over one by accident, because they're extremely bright.  That is the problem with making sense of it, though I note that they changed the special effect from something nebulous to looking like a green feeding black hole in  the remastered version, accretion disk, jets and all.

Black holes aren't incredibly rare, and the first one discovered, Cygnus X-1, was detected by the x-rays it gave off from syphoning gas off a close binary star companion.

Well, I posted an article yesterday about black holes: [url]http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7391.0[/url] ([url]http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7391.0[/url])  In it, astrophysicists refer to much smaller than galactic center-scale feeding black holes as "mini quasars".  The difference is only a matter of scale.  If you allow that the thing in The Galleo Seven was a regular roughly solar-mass feeding black hole, perhaps one that was feeding on a larger scale than previously examined up close, with a jet pointing away from any Federation worlds and the "planetoid" orbiting a binary companion - the inhabitable planetoid is quite unlikely, but possible, and assuming (plausably) that everyone just dropped the "mini" and it makes enough sense for Star Trek.  (The natives probably aren't native, though, and might not have anything like a million years to move to a planet in a stable system.  No telling what the Preservers were up to there.)


This is another example of something that seemed implausible (if not plain impossible) during the 1960's, which has proven to be possible through scientific discover years later.  I love the 'science' in science fiction!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on February 28, 2014, 10:42:48 PM
Give it another 2-3 decades, and even what you guy's call 'fake trek' might seem plausible. ;cute
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 28, 2014, 11:37:34 PM
Never.  Science advances a lot faster than people do - and it was never the bad science that we primarily objected to.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 01, 2014, 12:47:45 AM
This is another example of something that seemed implausible (if not plain impossible) during the 1960's, which has proven to be possible through scientific discover years later.  I love the 'science' in science fiction!
It's an example of not getting 1968 science right.  All known quasars at the time were intergalactic distances away, more common the further away, and therefore further back in time.  Their distinguishing characteristic was being pinpoint sources of as much or more radiation as/than whole galaxies.  Nobody knew whether they were white holes from another universe, leftover pieces of the Big Bang, or what.  I knew it couldn't be a quasar when I was still in high school and we still didn't have the foggiest what quasars are.  We are saved by new terminology in this case. 

It is a fun game to make sense of these things.  Now, if only I could think of a better handwave for Spock claiming the Doomsday Machine was made of neutronium...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 01, 2014, 02:42:00 AM
Give it another 2-3 decades, and even what you guy's call 'fake trek' might seem plausible. ;cute

Hey, BUncle calls it "fake Trek"  I just call it not the original - which is IMO the best.  :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 01, 2014, 02:42:29 AM
Never.  Science advances a lot faster than people do - and it was never the bad science that we primarily objected to.

Tru dat!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 01, 2014, 02:46:02 AM
This is another example of something that seemed implausible (if not plain impossible) during the 1960's, which has proven to be possible through scientific discover years later.  I love the 'science' in science fiction!
It's an example of not getting 1968 science right.  All known quasars at the time were intergalactic distances away, more common the further away, and therefore further back in time.  Their distinguishing characteristic was being pinpoint sources of as much or more radiation as/than whole galaxies.  Nobody knew whether they were white holes from another universe, leftover pieces of the Big Bang, or what.  I knew it couldn't be a quasar when I was still in high school and we still didn't have the foggiest what quasars are.  We are saved by new terminology in this case. 

It is a fun game to make sense of these things.  Now, if only I could think of a better handwave for Spock claiming the Doomsday Machine was made of neutronium...

Well, if you want a scientific explanation... " from the last half of the 20th century onward it has been also used legitimately to refer to extremely dense substances resembling the neutron-degenerate matter theorized to exist in the cores of neutron stars; henceforth "degenerate neutronium" will refer to this. Science fiction and popular literature frequently use the term "neutronium" to refer to a highly dense phase of matter composed primarily of neutrons."

This is from the Wikipedia page on "neutronium", so take it with a grain of salt - but there's more than a 'handwave.'  ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 01, 2014, 02:59:40 AM
Nah.  I don't read all the latest physics journals, but the wikinurd who dashed that off was talking out his wikibutt.
Hey, BUncle calls it "fake Trek"  I just call it not the original - which is IMO the best.  :D
I actually object to people calling Star Trek TOS, let alone saying Star Trek and meaning any other version.  There is Star Trek, and then there's everything later, which have to append a qualifier.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 01, 2014, 03:27:27 AM
I got used to using TOS, since there are so many spinoffs discussed at TrekBBS. It just means The Original Series - the real one.  :-\
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 01, 2014, 03:46:21 AM
Yeah; that's part of what I'm complaining about - I resent the brand confusion.  I just don't think it's fair to treat the original the same as the inferior variations.  I say Star Trek when I mean Star Trek, TNG when I mean TNG, and ************ when I mean the Mistake movie of about four years ago, y'know?  They are not equal.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 01, 2014, 03:52:43 AM
I know what I mean when I type TOS, and it's convenient to use the abbreviations TAS, TNG, and DS9. But I always type out Voyager, and I try never to type the abomination that was Enterprise. As for the Abrams crap, when I'm being polite about it over there, I call it "nuTrek" - meaning that fake crap that pretends to be Star Trek.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 01, 2014, 03:54:58 AM
Yah, I just feel like being a crank about it around my friends.

As I've mentioned a number of times, I liked all the fake enough to watch it -even Enterprise- excepting that thing last year.  I just have felt since always that they took this most excellent and treasured thing that I prized as I do little in the entire world, made parodies inferior imitations, and peed all over my personal treasure.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 01, 2014, 04:09:45 AM
Okay, let me ask you this:

Let's say that one of us got immensely wealthy and persuaded the authors and artists - everyone holding any sort of copyrights to the Valjiir stories - to allow a series to be made. Assume a great cast, well-written scripts, and enough funding and competent tech people to really do it justice.

Would you go for that?


Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 01, 2014, 04:20:08 AM
Dunno.  I'm not the audience for Valjiir.  I mean, I couldn't be less interested in Spock's love life, for example.  God bless everyone who is interested, but they didn't make it for me.  The actual episodes that had that sort of thing heavily featured are not my favorites.  For one thing, I can never watch any of it for the first time as an adult, and when I did at five, they made me uncomfortable. [shrugs]

I would be ALL over a chance to WORK on such a show, mind, but that's nothing to do with your question.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 01, 2014, 04:42:16 AM
Why wouldn't it be part of my question?

Many years ago, I read the Stephen G. Whitfield book The Making of Star Trek. All the backstage technical stuff fascinated me, especially the props-making. Many years later, I got interested in musical theatre. When I found out that some of the people working backstage were even younger than I was (I was in Grade 11 at the time), I decided then and there that I would be part of it too.

So the following spring I applied for a job backstage, and got it. For the next 12 years, I worked on the props crew, the costume crew, the stage crew, and front of house crew. I've made fancy stuff, crappy-looking stuff (it was supposed to look crappy!), unusual stuff, and had some technical things I had to do with some of the props that were part of the play.

I can't dance or sing to save my life. Even my cats hate it when I so much as hum a tune. But I love listening to musical theatre, memorizing the songs, and learning to play them on the organ. And when you're immersed in a play for 3-4 months continuously, you pretty soon know the lines and cues quite well.

I especially enjoyed the Valjiir story where the crew performed Jesus Christ Superstar for the ambassadors. I worked on that play back in 1981, and it was the most fun time I had in my life. I had that play so thoroughly memorized, to this day I can replay parts of it in my mind, hearing the singers, the instruments, even some of the sound effects as they were done in our production.

The night I had off, I sat in the audience to see the play for myself. It was a magical experience.


So you can work on a show and still appreciate the performances - even moreso, since you know some of what went into them, and all the technical things that enhance them.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 01, 2014, 04:52:19 AM
Okay.  Have I mentioned my broadcasting degree and professional performing background?  Heck, if I lived within an hour's drive distance of where they shoot Phase II, they'd have to post guards to keep me from pitching in - and I prefer Continues.

My sole reservation would be having to work with show people to work on a show.  There's a reason I stopped doing that, and it wasn't because the money sucked.  But I would love, love, love to dip my toe back in showbiz, if only I could work with mature and trustworthy people.  And I still don't know why you're asking.  :D

BTW, I know a lady who looks like Lalla Ward; I wonder if she can act?  ;)


(And if we ever happen to meet in analog, we GOTS to pop in the Superstar soundtrack and rock out.  I could totally kill all Mary's songs before the renfairs ruined my falsetto.)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 01, 2014, 05:00:32 AM
I'm asking because I'm honestly curious. And in case you're wondering, this is all hypothetical, since I'm not rich and have no idea if there's anybody in the world who might be interested in such a project except me.

As for Lalla Ward... I've been told I resemble her (as she was back in the late '70s/early '80s); my nickname then was "Romana."

I wouldn't know about the person you're referring to, but my acting skills are dismal.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 01, 2014, 05:06:37 AM
That's okay; I'm not dismal, but I'm a big husky hippie in appearance, and don't want any part bad enough to cut my hair, so I have trouble imagining getting to perform on our hypothetical show much, either.

Actually - it might be fun to hypothetically kick around what Star Trek: Valjiir might be like, as if it was possible.  Casting might be a place to start...
Title: Spock is cool.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 02, 2014, 04:03:27 AM
;spock
;notes; Boy, boy, crazy boy, / Get cool, boy! / Got a rocket in your pocket, / Keep coolly cool, boy! / Don't get hot, / 'Cause man, you got / Some high times ahead. / Take it slow and Daddy-O, / You can live it up and die in bed! ;notes;
;notes; Boy, boy, crazy boy! / Stay loose, boy! / Breeze it, buzz it, easy does it. / Turn off the juice, boy! / Go man, go, / But not like a yo-yo schoolboy. / Just play it cool, boy, / Real cool!
;notes;
;spock


"Cool" has its origins as a compliment in terms like "cool as a cucumber" and "one cool customer".  It got mutated into more of an expression of admiration for personal style by the time Happy Days was through with it, but is rooted in high regard for self control; the two are far from incompatible, anyway.  Spock was cool ten years before anyone thought of Arthur Fonzarelli.

And he's cool in both senses of the term.  He's a man of extraordinary self control who is also powerful and heroic.  What's not to admire?

You might go for someone hot-blooded for romance and fun, but if you're wise, you're looking for a cool customer to marry; you have to live with them in between the fun.  I believe the ladies will agree that Spock has something of the best of both worlds as a romantic object; he's cool, but we know he's a volcano too, if you approach him just right.  He also wears the hell out of the uniform.

And he's lonely.  He seems to gravitate towards intelligent workaholic commanding officers; fellows who don't bother with concealing their feelings at all times - but very much in control of themselves.  And if we admire the "cool", the self-controlled and competent, how much more must Vulcans, who practice self control as something almost like a religion?

It's something like the difference between a teenager and an adult.  When I was 16, I was bigger and stronger than the majority of adults (albeit a bit short, still),  more widely-read, I'd always been smarter, and I could do over 95% of what I'd ever be able to.  I thought that there was right and there was wrong in the world - and the difference between them wasn't hard to suss out.  You'd never have been able to explain to me the subtle tricks of thought and deed and self-restraint I was going to learn, all too slowly, over the years.  Young people approaching adulthood can be excruciating to take.  They're excitable, loud, impetuous, excitable, big enough to be dangerous and foolish enough to pick fights they'll lose or at least get hurt in.

-And it seems to follow that Vulcans, bred to peace and ruling their passions with inhuman will, would see Humans at least a little that way.  Attitudes might easily range from patronizing admiration of Human industriousness (they may not be that bright, but surprisingly few of them get killed in their million illogical schemes; they mostly do more good than harm) to overt distain for the space hillbillies.

Good bad or IDIC, of the five Vulcans we've met, one's half-Human, one's a diplomat/politician married to one, and one of the other three seemed hostile.  It's far from evidence that all Vulcans are one annoying encounter with an Earther from joining the Vulcan Vux Vlan, and it's laughably far from a reliable statistical sample, but it's all we have to go on, and at least hints at non-trivial level distain in the population.   The same ought to go for attitudes towards any other race you'd care to name.  Maybe there's a problem there in need of addressing, both internally and externally.

If you don't buy any of it, ask yourself if not wanting it to be so is in the mix.  We, an emotionally immature race, admire cool for good reason.  Why wouldn't Vulcans tend to feel much more strongly, given my reasoning?  (Also, our eating habits are disgusting; you know how vegetarians are. ;))  ;spock
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 02, 2014, 05:22:35 AM
Yes, there is the "cool" factor... but I noticed you use the "West Side Story" lyrics without acknowledging that play as a 1950's-era retelling of Romeo and Juliet.

(West Side Story is one of the musicals I worked on, making crappy props that were supposed to look crappy but still function... that umbrella the guys took from the trash can for the "Gee Officer Krupke" scene started its life as a perfectly good one in the local Kresge's store, and ended up a work of art, being shredded and destroyed by 3 people, and finally made appropriately dirty by my having tossed it outside in a convenient mud puddle and jumping up and down on it several times)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 02, 2014, 05:38:29 AM
You mean in the sense that I could have talked about Romeo and Juliet as examples of unrestrained youth and passion letting things get out of hand, or something?  I assumed everyone would recognize the song, and rather think everyone knows about the inspiration.

I've never been involved in a production of either show, alas.  I have been in a production of Superstar, which I wish had gone up a couple of nights sooner - one of those shows that peaked in dress rehearsal.  I was a disciple, and faking crying for Jesus by the time it opened.  I also got nominated for a Willy for singing  ;notes; Someone Christ, King of the Jews! ;notes;  - that was my entire solo in the show.  It really was called a Willy unironically.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 02, 2014, 06:15:02 AM
"Someone" Christ, King of the Jews" is not one of the Apostles' lines. I seem to recall that being one of the Roman soldiers' lines, in the first scene with Pontius Pilate.

I worked front of house on a production of Romeo and Juliet. By that time I was also the Chatelaine for our local Society for Creative Anachronism group, and when I offered to provide 6-10 medievally-costumed people to be ushers, ticket-takers, program people, etc., they jumped at it (the only stipulation was that we would get free admission to see the play). It was interesting seeing a live production - and yes, the actors really did do the bedroom scene nude.

I wonder how a "Romeo and Juliet" scenario would play out in Vulcan society? I could easily see it happening pre-Surak, but in modern times?

Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 02, 2014, 03:31:02 PM
"Someone" Christ, King of the Jews" is not one of the Apostles' lines. I seem to recall that being one of the Roman soldiers' lines, in the first scene with Pontius Pilate
and I doubled up - I think someone dropped out late in rehearsals.

In modern times would take a lot of adapting.  Pre Surak, it could fit so well you'd only need to change names.  I'm going to pitch that one to Mylochka for at least a series of illos.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 02, 2014, 05:21:00 PM
Ah, casting for a Valjiir movie... used to be a fun pastime for me, but now all my choices are at least 25 years out of date.   Although (sure to invite the ire of my fellows here) Chris Pine as Jim, Zach Quinto as Spock and Karl Urban as McCoy would definitely be at the top of my lists...  And remember, we agreed to disagree about the quality of the reboot.  I'm looking at the above-named actors as actors as those characters, not at the movies overall.
Title: Re: Spock is cool.
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 02, 2014, 05:25:22 PM
;spock
;notes; Boy, boy, crazy boy, / Get cool, boy! / Got a rocket in your pocket, / Keep coolly cool, boy! / Don't get hot, / 'Cause man, you got / Some high times ahead. / Take it slow and Daddy-O, / You can live it up and die in bed! ;notes;
;notes; Boy, boy, crazy boy! / Stay loose, boy! / Breeze it, buzz it, easy does it. / Turn off the juice, boy! / Go man, go, / But not like a yo-yo schoolboy. / Just play it cool, boy, / Real cool!
;notes;
;spock

So is Spock a Shark or a Jet?
Quote
"Cool" has its origins as a compliment in terms like "cool as a cucumber" and "one cool customer".  It got mutated into more of an expression of admiration for personal style by the time Happy Days was through with it, but is rooted in high regard for self control; the two are far from incompatible, anyway.  Spock was cool ten years before anyone thought of Arthur Fonzarelli.

And he's cool in both senses of the term.  He's a man of extraordinary self control who is also powerful and heroic.  What's not to admire?

You might go for someone hot-blooded for romance and fun, but if you're wise, you're looking for a cool customer to marry; you have to live with them in between the fun.  I believe the ladies will agree that Spock has something of the best of both worlds as a romantic object; he's cool, but we know he's a volcano too, if you approach him just right.  He also wears the hell out of the uniform.

And he's lonely.  He seems to gravitate towards intelligent workaholic commanding officers; fellows who don't bother with concealing their feelings at all times - but very much in control of themselves.  And if we admire the "cool", the self-controlled and competent, how much more must Vulcans, who practice self control as something almost like a religion?

It's something like the difference between a teenager and an adult.  When I was 16, I was bigger and stronger than the majority of adults (albeit a bit short, still),  more widely-read, I'd always been smarter, and I could do over 95% of what I'd ever be able to.  I thought that there was right and there was wrong in the world - and the difference between them wasn't hard to suss out.  You'd never have been able to explain to me the subtle tricks of thought and deed and self-restraint I was going to learn, all too slowly, over the years.  Young people approaching adulthood can be excruciating to take.  They're excitable, loud, impetuous, excitable, big enough to be dangerous and foolish enough to pick fights they'll lose or at least get hurt in.

-And it seems to follow that Vulcans, bred to peace and ruling their passions with inhuman will, would see Humans at least a little that way.  Attitudes might easily range from patronizing admiration of Human industriousness (they may not be that bright, but surprisingly few of them get killed in their million illogical schemes; they mostly do more good than harm) to overt distain for the space hillbillies.

Good bad or IDIC, of the five Vulcans we've met, one's half-Human, one's a diplomat/politician married to one, and one of the other three seemed hostile.  It's far from evidence that all Vulcans are one annoying encounter with an Earther from joining the Vulcan Vux Vlan, and it's laughably far from a reliable statistical sample, but it's all we have to go on, and at least hints at non-trivial level distain in the population.   The same ought to go for attitudes towards any other race you'd care to name.  Maybe there's a problem there in need of addressing, both internally and externally.

If you don't buy any of it, ask yourself if not wanting it to be so is in the mix.  We, an emotionally immature race, admire cool for good reason.  Why wouldn't Vulcans tend to feel much more strongly, given my reasoning?  (Also, our eating habits are disgusting; you know how vegetarians are. ;))  ;spock

I definitely buy it  :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 02, 2014, 05:27:31 PM
"Someone" Christ, King of the Jews" is not one of the Apostles' lines. I seem to recall that being one of the Roman soldiers' lines, in the first scene with Pontius Pilate
and I doubled up - I think someone dropped out late in rehearsals.

In modern times would take a lot of adapting.  Pre Surak, it could fit so well you'd only need to change names.  I'm going to pitch that one to Mylochka for at least a series of illos.

You could pitch it to me.  I'm right here.  :P
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 02, 2014, 05:31:39 PM
I think he's a Jet - all the way.

I didn't love the casting for the reboot, I didn't even like it, but the cast was never the problem.  Your scripts would be better, and that would make all the difference. ;nod

...

Well, start writing, then.  Mylochka likes the idea, at least doing a few pics.  You know she's big on the Shakespeare.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 02, 2014, 05:56:41 PM
Spock as a Jet.  I like it.  :)

Thanks for the compliment and vote of confidence.

Tell Mylochka hi for me - haven't heard directly from her in nearly a month  :-\

And I'll start working on Vulcan Side Story ASAP - but I suspect it won't be one of the kind you like ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 02, 2014, 06:00:55 PM
[blinks] It's got a lot of swordfights and I know you'd never waste time on the mushy love stuff.  [blinks]
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 02, 2014, 06:06:47 PM
Mylochka says hi back.

She's been pretty troubled with the headaches and depression lately, though at least the seizures haven't been too bad.  Right now she's laying on the couch watching a Hartnell Dr. Who.

She's keen on the Sp'romeo and T'juliet notion - pointed out that it could be something in the line of those folktales from different cultures things y'all did.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 02, 2014, 09:25:36 PM
Ah, casting for a Valjiir movie... used to be a fun pastime for me, but now all my choices are at least 25 years out of date.   Although (sure to invite the ire of my fellows here) Chris Pine as Jim, Zach Quinto as Spock and Karl Urban as McCoy would definitely be at the top of my lists...  And remember, we agreed to disagree about the quality of the reboot.  I'm looking at the above-named actors as actors as those characters, not at the movies overall.
If any of those three are used as the basis of any character in this, I will not be able to even look at it, much less read it. I find nuTrek to be an abomination.

I don't like the actors, either (yes, have seen them elsewhere).
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 02, 2014, 09:52:35 PM
You're confusing things.  The actors named were for a fantasy Valjiir movie (as suggested by you, I believe).  And it would be a real shame if you kept preconceptions from seeing such a movie.  But since this is all fantasy, it's really neither here nor there.  But it's sad you're so close-minded about it.

The Vulcan Side Story thing will, of course, be done with the Valjiir characters as depicted by Mylochka's artwork.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 02, 2014, 09:53:08 PM
[blinks] It's got a lot of swordfights and I know you'd never waste time on the mushy love stuff.  [blinks]

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 02, 2014, 10:27:43 PM
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!
:D

...

I sorta take the position that it's almost impossible to cast the classic parts really well, so just as well accept the nucast as a starting point - I can't hate them just because they were in horrible movies.  One hopes that most of their inadequacies could be fixed with good direction and writing that feels like Star Trek instead of Star Wars.

That said, great as Simon Pegg may be in comedy parts that fit him, I'd rather have Scotty played by someone who isn't completely not like Scotty.  I'd rather a better Sulu and Chekov, too, and note that while Zackary Quinto looks in the ballpark, his performance of Spock actually resembles Tuvok a lot more.  He needs to turn down the peevish annoyance, or I'd rather look for someone taller, thinner a little bit gaunt and craggier, who can perform Spock's "cool".
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 03, 2014, 05:10:29 AM
You're confusing things.  The actors named were for a fantasy Valjiir movie (as suggested by you, I believe).  And it would be a real shame if you kept preconceptions from seeing such a movie.  But since this is all fantasy, it's really neither here nor there.  But it's sad you're so close-minded about it.

The Vulcan Side Story thing will, of course, be done with the Valjiir characters as depicted by Mylochka's artwork.
Please do not accuse me of being "close-minded" unless you know exactly why I feel as I do about nuTrek and/or the actors involved in it, and the absolute $h!tstorm of trolling and flaming I had thrown at me at TrekBBS for not falling all over myself to praise that crap.


I would love to participate in wishful casting a hypothetical Valjiir movie, but not if it involves anyone from nuTrek.

I'm out of this part of the conversation for now.

Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 03, 2014, 05:17:45 AM
Might I suggest offering an alternative list?  You know I'd rather do better, but I got nothin' of my own.



-This is me hoping I won't have to act like a moderator...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 03, 2014, 06:36:22 PM
Ah, casting for a Valjiir movie... used to be a fun pastime for me, but now all my choices are at least 25 years out of date.
Why should we limit ourselves to only current actors? Since this is hypothetical (and we have time travel at our disposal), shouldn't anyone be eligible?  ;)

If we had to stay with currently-popular actors, I wouldn't have a clue because I haven't been to a theatre since last century (literally; it was Toy Story 2), and rarely watch TV nowadays).
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 03, 2014, 06:39:02 PM
Why should we limit ourselves to only current actors? Since this is hypothetical (and we have time travel at our disposal), shouldn't anyone be eligible?  ;)

I'd cast myself for the function of Red Shirt any day. Imagine all the screentime you get... ;cute
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 03, 2014, 06:48:25 PM
I tend to think in casting games, it's more fun to assume a time machine, whoever you want's available, and you can afford them.  Naturally, using the originals wouldn't be any fun.  Naturally, casting the purely Valjiir characters would be safer ground...

I also like to point out to ladies that Brad Pit can only play one part.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 03, 2014, 06:51:53 PM
I also like to point out to ladies that Brad Pit can only play one part.

Sidekick of mademoiselle Jolie?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 03, 2014, 07:02:03 PM
That is the gentleman I had in mind, yes.  Back in my renfair days, we played 'who will play us in the movie' in the campground a fair bit, and Mr. Pit got mentioned entirely too often for the cute white boys.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 03, 2014, 07:13:39 PM
What I meant was: BP acting as sidekick of AJ in some new ST movie. Genderrole reversal and all that. ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 03, 2014, 07:19:57 PM
[shrugs]  He's actually a very good actor, and she's not bad.  I'd watch it.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: FoldInTheWolf on March 03, 2014, 11:46:13 PM
I personally loved the new movies. I think Quinto, Pine, and Urban were particularly good -- bearing in mind that this is an alternate history, with different personal events resulting in some differences in personality from the characters we got to know nearly fifty years ago.

I also thought the scripts were sharp and the directing was tense. Yes, there were some plot holes and some bad science, but I've unfortunately never seen a science fiction movie for which this wasn't true. (I saw Gravity over the weekend, and I loved it -- and it's got some glaring plot holes and some awful science too.)

I am aware that not everyone agrees with my assessment, and I see no reason we need to all agree. Taste is a personal thing, and we are likely to differ.

As far as playing the casting game, I see no reason to limit our fantasies to any particular group of actors. This being fantasy, it  may not even be necessary to limit ourselves to living actors, or to actors who are the correct age today (as opposed to, for instance, having been the right age 20 or 30 or 60 years ago), though that then removes the fantasy from anything we could imagine actually doing today.

Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 03, 2014, 11:49:34 PM
What I meant was: BP acting as sidekick of AJ in some new ST movie. Genderrole reversal and all that. ;)

But which characters?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 03, 2014, 11:54:04 PM
To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson, my neighbors' errors of taste neither break my leg nor pick my pocket.

-I have to tell myself that a lot, 'cause I'm a nerd who wants to get riled up over that kind of thing, and the people next door have SUCH lousy taste. ;)



Jaime Pressly as Ruth?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 04, 2014, 04:28:32 AM
But which characters?

Don't know, I'm not familiar enough with Valjiir to pin them down. Some sort of vigilantes duo perhaps?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: FoldInTheWolf on March 04, 2014, 05:01:01 AM
What I meant was: BP acting as sidekick of AJ in some new ST movie. Genderrole reversal and all that. ;)
But which characters?
I think AJ could play Loki Monelem :)


Title: Super Spock
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 04, 2014, 05:44:02 AM
Consider this: Vulcan is supposed to have high gravity and thin air.  It was obviously a hot desert-y place at the point where Spock's wedding was staged, tending validate a number of assertions about Vulcan.

And yet: fight scenes on Vulcan in Amok Time didn't look sped up at all.  Remember how astronauts on the moon looked like they were in slow motion when they moved?  The opposite ought to apply if the gravity was enough higher than one G.  And not just Kirk, but the older and less in-shape McCoy were never out of breath walking around and engaging in moderate activity.

Spock passed out before Kirk when Khan cut off the air in Space Seed.  McCoy succumbed to the cold before Spock -who not only is from a much warmer place and would complain of ship's temperature in The Deadly Years, but is also taller and thinner.  I imagine that both cases had to do with Spock's control of his body; he quickly put himself in a trance in hope of fooling Khan, and although he was still going to freeze to death before McCoy, he could delay unconsciousness in hope of finding shelter or whatever.

And the bright sun of Vulcan is no joke, given Operation: Annihilate! and the inner eyelid.

Now, there is no denying that Spock is strong, far stronger than he looks.  Guards fly 10 feet at a shove and fall unconscious.  Viewscreens and metal furniture crumple before his wrath.  (And incidentally, he fights like he's never been in a fight before, but that's one of those things we have to not think about - so does Kirk.  The fight choreography was bad on that show.)  Consider the nerve pinch, which Kirk cannot learn (A Piece of the Action or Patterns of Force - it was a backlot episode, but I'm not sure which), which I would guess is an application of mind touch more than pressure point manipulation, else all those armed guards he merely shoved various times ought to have been scrambling to their feet with hurt shoulders and their guns out.  They never even hit their heads falling.


And I have a theory related to all this - it's all Vulcan kung fu/Surakian mental superpowers, including almost all of the super-strength.  Vulcan surface gravity can't be any more than 10-15% higher than Earth, and the air not that much thinner than the mountain town I went to college in, or we'd have seen visible effects on Kirk and McCoy, which we really didn't.

It is established fact that Spock is skilled in Vulcan kung fu (Journey to Babel) all sorts of Surakian mental discipline (more than half of all episodes) and his body is much more dependent on that wonderful brain than a pure human (Spock's Brain).

Not a lot of implications of that occur to me, except that it gives him more credit than the show did for his superpowers...  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: FoldInTheWolf on March 04, 2014, 05:59:50 AM
BUncle, I agree, the things that Spock does that he shouldn't be able to do are due to his impressive Vulcan physiology and mental discipline.

Kirk and McCoy being unimpeded in Amok Time are due to the limitations of 1960s television in being able to have accurate special effects and in poor script writing. (One of my Valjiir stories, "The Last Time I Saw Richard", has a human -- Jade Han -- spending some time on Vulcan, and it deals with the thin air and high gravity much more realistically.)

Similarly, Spock passing out before Kick in Space Seed was due to 1960s conventions regarding televised storytelling, and Shatner's ego (he would never allow Kirk to be anything less than every episode's hero). 
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 04, 2014, 06:08:20 AM
Bringing the real world into it is no fun.   :P
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 05, 2014, 03:29:42 PM
Jaime Pressly as Ruth?

I don't know who that is.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 05, 2014, 03:31:21 PM
I think AJ could play Loki Monelem :)

Naw, she's not puckish enough.  Now go back some 40 years and Olivia Hussy could easily play Jilla.  Michelle Yeoh for Jade.  A young Annie Potts for Daffy.  Young Benjamin Bratt or Jimmy Smits for Ramon Ordona.  My original vision of Jeremy Paget was Tim Reid (Venus Flytrap from WKRP in Cincinnati) but for a modern actor, Mahershala Ali (Remy Denton from House of Cards[/I]) would do well.  Del and Ruth are tough to cast because who in real life is that beautiful?  ;) 

Anyone else have any suggestions?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2014, 03:40:41 PM
Jaime Pressly:

(http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20131019183505/twohalfmen/images/f/fe/Jaime_Pressly.jpg)

(http://www.alwaysgirls.com/bigimage/1024/jaime_pressly24.jpg)

(http://wallpoper.com/images/00/38/43/70/jaime-pressly_00384370.jpg)

Mostly does comedy.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 05, 2014, 03:44:25 PM
There's some potential there, but her face is too round.  And of course, her eyes are too small - but then we won't get a Human actress with eyes big enough  :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2014, 04:01:38 PM
Y'know, I was thinking in terms of how Jiila and Ruth are, visually, day and night.  Part of the trick in the casting game is to figure out how much a physical likeness is important to how the character is perceived - in the case of the girls, I think their physicality is an essential part.

In the case of say, Kirk, not so much; a decent-looking white leading man will do, provided he can get the personality traits across.  You want to cast for the essence of a character, and sometimes you want to emphasize some traits at the expense of others.  And all too frequently, an exact likeness just isn't possible, but getting the essence is.

Jaime Pressly and Angelina Jolie wouldn't be horrible physical representations of Ruth and Jiila, though I'd venture a thinner lady would get closer on the latter...

Pressly is aces at playing difficult, pushy, funny women...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 05, 2014, 04:07:43 PM
Y'know, I was thinking in terms of how Jiila and Ruth are, visually, day and night.  Part of the trick in the casting game is to figure out how much a physical likeness is important to how the character is perceived - in the case of the girls, I think their physicality is an essential part.

I completely agree.

Quote
In the case of say, Kirk, not so much; a decent-looking white leading man will do, provided he can get the personality traits across.

Yep, just the right amounts of charm, arrogance, strength, intelligence, and vulnerability - plus he NEEDS a boyish grin.

Quote
Jaime Pressly and Angelina Jolie wouldn't be horrible physical representations of Ruth and Jiila, though I'd venture a thinner lady would get closer on the latter...

Hmmm - I think if Angelina Jolie was shorter - and more buxom... her face has the right poutiness, but maybe a little too sultry for Jilla.  Now with shorter hair, and the same physical attributes as Jilla, she could make for a very passable Calaya Wheal (the future Mrs. DelMonde)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 05, 2014, 04:13:31 PM
I know Mylochka is having a rough patch here, but seeing as how she helped create the CGI characters, maybe she could give her opinion here? (Pretty please with certain people on top? Or on the bottom?  Or however she'd like them?  :-* )
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2014, 04:21:31 PM
She has been so nagged.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2014, 05:30:47 PM
Mylochka thinks this shot of Pressly is especially Ruth-looking:

(http://www.kewlwallpapers.com/images/1600x1200/Jaime-Pressly-26.JPG)

I will nag her to actually post for herself more later.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2014, 07:52:44 PM
A young Annie Potts.
Yowsa.  If I ever meet Annie Potts, I plan to say "I loved you in Corvette Summer".
Del and Ruth are tough to cast because who in real life is that beautiful?  ;)
Johnny Depp.  Proximate resemblance, very pretty, and the part calls for someone who can do both comedy and perform the serious mood swings.  He's a real actor.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2014, 07:59:19 PM
In the case of say, Kirk, not so much; a decent-looking white leading man will do, provided he can get the personality traits across.

Yep, just the right amounts of charm, arrogance, strength, intelligence, and vulnerability - plus he NEEDS a boyish grin.
I think much of the difference in success in James Crawley and Vic Mignogna's respective portrayals of Kirk have to do with age.  Mignogna is 51, I think, and beginning to lose his looks.  Crawley looks 25.  Shatner was in his mid-30s, much younger than Mignogna is now, but loosing his looks - witness how much prettier he was on The Twilight Zone

Crawley never got over with me, and Mignogna did almost instantly.  I think something about being an aging pretty-boy deeply informs a good Kirk performance.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 05, 2014, 08:00:49 PM
That pix of JP IS a good fit for Ruthie!

And (face palm!) WHY didn't I think of Johnny Depp!!!!!!  You're SPOT ON, friend!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2014, 08:01:24 PM
:D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2014, 08:05:18 PM
Depp also has a quality that I think a good Del would need; a pretty-boy that straight yard apes like me don't want to beat up on sight...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 05, 2014, 08:06:19 PM
In the case of say, Kirk, not so much; a decent-looking white leading man will do, provided he can get the personality traits across.

Yep, just the right amounts of charm, arrogance, strength, intelligence, and vulnerability - plus he NEEDS a boyish grin.
I think much of the difference in success in James Crawley and Vic Mignogna's respective portrayals of Kirk have to do with age.  Mignogna is 51, I think, and beginning to lose his looks.  Crawley looks 25.  Shatner was in his mid-30s, much younger than Mignogna is now, but loosing his looks - witness how much prettier he was on The Twilight Zone

Crawley never got over with me, and Mignogna did almost instantly.  I think something about being an aging pretty-boy deeply informs a good Kirk performance.

I have to disagree about Crawley - I think he really performs Kirk very well - though there's a touch too much Shatner for my taste.  Don't get me wrong, until his ego got involved, Shatner was a GREAT Kirk.  But knowing Jim as I do, (Valjiir version, of course  ;) less dramatic pause-and-emphasis would serve much better.

I'll have to check out Mignogna again - nothing is really striking my memory about him.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 05, 2014, 08:08:06 PM
Depp also has a quality that I think a good Del would need; a pretty-boy that straight yard apes like me don't want to beat up on sight...

*snicker, snort!*  Jeremy is ALL over that suggestion! ;lol
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2014, 08:10:13 PM
I have no idea what the joke there is.

...

It's just that I never saw Kirk in New Voyages/Phase II, just a pretty kid pretending.  In Continues, I forget briefly that it's an impostor...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 05, 2014, 08:49:05 PM
In the case of say, Kirk, not so much; a decent-looking white leading man will do, provided he can get the personality traits across.

Yep, just the right amounts of charm, arrogance, strength, intelligence, and vulnerability - plus he NEEDS a boyish grin.
I think much of the difference in success in James Crawley and Vic Mignogna's respective portrayals of Kirk have to do with age.  Mignogna is 51, I think, and beginning to lose his looks.  Crawley looks 25.  Shatner was in his mid-30s, much younger than Mignogna is now, but loosing his looks - witness how much prettier he was on The Twilight Zone

Crawley never got over with me, and Mignogna did almost instantly.  I think something about being an aging pretty-boy deeply informs a good Kirk performance.
I watched an episode of Phase II last night, and it bugged me all the way through as to who Cawley reminds me of. He's basically what you get if you stuff Kyle MacLachlan, Kirk Geiger, and Dan Gauthier into a transporter and set it to "scramble." (that's a combination of Paul Atreides, Kevin Buchanan from "One Life to Live" and an actor who also played Kevin Buchanan besides being in TNG). Something about the eyes... just really annoyed me that I couldn't figure out where I'd seen him before. He struck me as too young to be Kirk, especially in the scenes with Peter. He's too young to be the uncle of an adult officer, especially when we know that in-universe, Peter Kirk should still be a young teenager at most.

I disagree with your assessment of Vic Mignogna's looks. I have no idea what he looked like when he was younger, but he looks just fine to me as he is now!  :D When I watch one of his scenes, I don't think "fan film" - I think "Star Trek if they'd had to recast William Shatner."
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2014, 08:55:25 PM
But Shatner wasn't ugly - he was just vain enough to be troubled by aging.  Kirk should be handsome -it's part of the charm- but not as pretty as Crawley.  I'll defer to the ladies, of course, on the subject of cute guys, but Mignogna seems to me like a very good-looking fellow (who knows it) on the cusp of losing it...  NOT, however, having lost it.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2014, 10:00:20 PM
Mylochka just got home, and she says the Depp is a lock for Del - and agrees that I win an internet for that one.  ;spock  :danc:  ;spock
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 05, 2014, 10:37:08 PM
I have no idea what the joke there is.

Jeremy thinks both Del and Johnny Depp are more than F-I-N-E... Jer IS bisexual, you know....

Quote
It's just that I never saw Kirk in New Voyages/Phase II, just a pretty kid pretending.  In Continues, I forget briefly that it's an impostor...

*shrugs*
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 05, 2014, 10:47:23 PM
Ever since I saw pictures of Lane Gage, I couldn't help thinking of Timothy D. Stickney, who played R.J. Gannon in One Life to Live (with his hair pulled back, he looks even more a match):

(http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/vox_stellaris/Uncaptioned%20Photos/Timothy_Stickney_zpsc5573e47.jpg)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2014, 11:07:21 PM
With a haircut, that is not a poor resemblance to the illos of him.  I'm beginning to think you like One Life to Live...

Jeremy thinks both Del and Johnny Depp are more than F-I-N-E... Jer IS bisexual, you know....
Yeah, it was the juxtaposition with my remark about the gay-bash impulse that threw me.  I knew Paget was Del's secret keeper, and in Sulu's drag club back in the day, where carnal knowledge of the evil leader was seemingly mandatory.  I have poked around your character outlines some - and of course looked at a lot of art.

All I've actually read of the stories that Mylochka had no hand in was the Iotian encounter a million years ago.  -And the version of The Mind Sifter in the book, of course.

Is it actually established that Jer likes a 20-21st century actor, or is that more the creator's knowledge of his tastes?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 05, 2014, 11:19:33 PM
With a haircut, that is not a poor resemblance to the illos of him.  I'm beginning to think you like One Life to Live...
I was happily addicted to it for over 15 years. Would have been over 20, if I hadn't had to give up cable TV for several years. By the time I got it back, the storylines had moved so far beyond what I was familiar with, I let it go.

You should keep in mind, though, that some of my perceptions of the Valjiir characters were formed when I read the original print 'zines. Some of the characters look very different (to me, at least) when you compare the print illustrations and Mylochka's artwork.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2014, 11:23:29 PM
Right.

I followed the CBS soaps for roughly the 80s.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 05, 2014, 11:41:00 PM
I still get a small OLTL fix since three of the actors moved over to General Hospital. :)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2014, 11:45:21 PM
I would miss my stories a lot more if all of them hadn't gotten so wretched before I dropped out...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 05, 2014, 11:58:24 PM
There aren't many daytime soaps left. GH is the only one left on ABC that's still on TV (the other two were resurrected online, but I haven't seen them). I think Days of Our Lives and Bold & Beautiful are still on, as is Young & Restless. My dad's girlfriend was addicted to that one, and she made him watch it for her when she had to work days. He became an expert in All Things Pertaining To Victor Newman. All I know about that is that the actor played one of the villains in Escape From the Planet of the Apes.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 06, 2014, 12:14:56 AM
Jarlwolf looks scarily like that actor, Erik Braeden...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 06, 2014, 03:43:38 PM
You should keep in mind, though, that some of my perceptions of the Valjiir characters were formed when I read the original print 'zines. Some of the characters look very different (to me, at least) when you compare the print illustrations and Mylochka's artwork.

That's mostly because I didn't have any say on what the print illustrators did.  There was no back-and-forth "Okay, is THIS better" kind of thing.  Mylochka and I worked very closely together to create he CGI Valjiir characters, so if you're looking for accuracy (whatever that means in universes from a different plane of reality  ;) ), then Mylochka's are the best approximation around.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 06, 2014, 03:53:05 PM
Jeremy thinks both Del and Johnny Depp are more than F-I-N-E... Jer IS bisexual, you know....
Quote
Yeah, it was the juxtaposition with my remark about the gay-bash impulse that threw me.  I knew Paget was Del's secret keeper, and in Sulu's drag club back in the day, where carnal knowledge of the evil leader was seemingly mandatory. 

Just FYI, several people are rolling around on the floor laughing hysterically at that description  :D

Quote
I have poked around your character outlines some - and of course looked at a lot of art.

All I've actually read of the stories that Mylochka had no hand in was the Iotian encounter a million years ago.  -And the version of The Mind Sifter in the book, of course.

Now I'm confused.  What do you mean by "the version of The Mind Sifter in the book"?

Quote
Is it actually established that Jer likes a 20-21st century actor, or is that more the creator's knowledge of his tastes?

'Actually established' where?  In the writing?  No, no mention of Mr. Depp in the writing.  And it's more than my knowledge of his tastes.  HE says it.  You know from Mylochka that these are real people that exist in my head/their own plane of reality (and sometimes in hers) right?

And if I've just freaked the hell out of everyone reading this, mea culpa. I calls 'em like I sees 'em.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 06, 2014, 04:23:13 PM
Quote
Now I'm confused.  What do you mean by "the version of The Mind Sifter in the book"?
I think he means the Shadow Captain stories based on the "Mind Sifter" story in the New Voyages paperback.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 06, 2014, 04:27:05 PM
-Which was altered from the original against the author's wishes for that publication...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 06, 2014, 04:33:20 PM
Hey, parody idea - Valjir: The Next Generation.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 06, 2014, 04:42:33 PM
-Which was altered from the original against the author's wishes for that publication...
I read the original that wasn't in the paperback. It had some interesting character stuff with Chekov, as he and McCoy figured out how to get around in the 20th century.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: FoldInTheWolf on March 06, 2014, 04:58:47 PM
-Which was altered from the original against the author's wishes for that publication...

Do you mean the original story in the New Voyages paperback was altered for publication in New Voyages? I hadn't known that.

Editors do sometimes edit. Trust me on that :) My novels as published differ markedly from what I originally submitted. In my case, what happened is that the editors made recommendations, suggesting where to add, where to trim, what do emphasize, and I fiddled with the text until I created something the editors liked better. I can't speak for anyone else's process or experience, but I think for me, the final versions are far superior to the originals.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 06, 2014, 05:05:42 PM
Oh, most assuredly. 

I gather that in this case, the author felt strongly about it, though.  Mylochka read the original a few days ago -I posted a link to it in the Star Trek thread- and, working from memory, she thinks it's not a lot of material excised, and not an interesting passage, at that.  -And that's from Chekov fangirl #1.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: FoldInTheWolf on March 06, 2014, 05:37:18 PM
Not having read the unedited version of Mind Sifter, what is below are general comments unrelated to any specific situation:

Writers sometimes fall in love with their own writing. That's a mistake. While I'm proud of what I've written (when it's any good), editors usually know their jobs at least as well as -- often better than -- writers know writing.

Writers know what they want to write. They don't always know what readers want to read. Ignoring (or getting pissed at) an editor is fine, as long as a writer doesn't care if anyone else ever reads the story.

It's the job of the writer to create; it's the job of an editor to turn that creation into something that someone other than the original writer will want to read.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 06, 2014, 05:42:24 PM
Absolutely, and it's a thing us nerdz with our aspie tendencies can have a lot of trouble with.  It's a pity fanfic writers are often that way, though, 'cause collaborating can be a lot of fun - twice as many ideas to play with, for one thing.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: FoldInTheWolf on March 06, 2014, 05:50:49 PM
Hey, parody idea - Valjir: The Next Generation.
I wrote one of those -- not as a parody though. It was published in IADR as "The Way Tomorrow Was", and the IADR editor almost refused to publish it.

I had to do my own illos.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 06, 2014, 05:54:15 PM
-Also Valjiir: Deep Space Nine, etc.  God help the readers of Valjiir: Enterprise.
Title: Another thought on Valjiir Search Engine Optimization
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 06, 2014, 07:38:23 PM
Dave, is there a keyword list on the site?  I've got this in the html code on my Custom Factions page (http://alphacentauri2.info/My%20Custom%20Factions/Custom%20Factions.htm):
Quote
4.  <meta name="keywords"
5.  content="alpha centauri,alien crossfire,sid meier,Sid Meier's,smac,smax,TBS,sf,4x,Planetary Pack,Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri, Sid Meier's Alien Crossfire, Firaxis Games, Xenofungus, Mindworms, Chiron, Miriam,
     Lal, Morgan, Deidre, Santiago, Zakharov, Aki Zeta, Domai, Drones, Marr, H'minee, Gaian, Morganites, mod, custom factions, how-to, scenario, map">

-And of course, one could simply put it at the bottom of the main page, 1 pt. type and color of the background - whichever seems easier.  The site is the #1 hit on Google for "Valjiir", of course, but it would help pull search engine hits for other, related, terms like "fanfic" and "Spock" and so on.  Many more people taking a look could result, and promotion is always playing the percentages for the users who will like what they see.

Sorry if I'm telling my gramma how to suck eggs...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: FoldInTheWolf on March 06, 2014, 08:02:04 PM
Great idea with keyword list. There isn't one currently, and there should be.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 07, 2014, 01:56:11 AM
Ok... you guys know I don't have a clue what you're talking about, right?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 07, 2014, 01:57:36 AM
Hey, parody idea - Valjir: The Next Generation.

Oh,  you mean Spock and Ruth's kids, Sulu and Jilla's kids, Jim and Jade's kids, Del and Calaya's kids..... *snicker*  :P
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 07, 2014, 02:01:12 AM
-Also Valjiir: Deep Space Nine, etc.  God help the readers of Valjiir: Enterprise.

Can definitely see Valjiir: Deep Space Nine.  It would be set some 20 years after the launch of the Nests.  But Enterprise... all I can say is if Mylochka, Dave and I did it, we'd get canon RIGHT!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 07, 2014, 02:25:44 AM
Proper Klingons and no T'Pol?  ;b;

Ok... you guys know I don't have a clue what you're talking about, right?
I comes as no surprise.  Dave gets it, so it's all good.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 07, 2014, 02:46:17 AM
Proper Klingons and no T'Pol?  ;b;

For starters.  ;lol

Ok... you guys know I don't have a clue what you're talking about, right?
I comes as no surprise.  Dave gets it, so it's all good.

Ok.  Oh, Da-ave......
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 07, 2014, 03:43:08 AM
Hey, parody idea - Valjir: The Next Generation.

Oh,  you mean Spock and Ruth's kids, Sulu and Jilla's kids, Jim and Jade's kids, Del and Calaya's kids..... *snicker*  :P
I just had a mental image of Riker trying to smarm his way with Ruth and getting told where to go and what to do with his thoughts when he gets there!


I just finished re-reading "Secret Seas" - do you have any plans to finish that?

(please, please, please...  :unworthy: )
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 07, 2014, 05:54:46 AM
Hey, parody idea - Valjir: The Next Generation.

I just had a mental image of Riker trying to smarm his way with Ruth and getting told where to go and what to do with his thoughts when he gets there!


HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!

Quote
I just finished re-reading "Secret Seas" - do you have any plans to finish that?

(please, please, please...  :unworthy: )

I added a little more today just for you.  :D  Hope to get back to it soon, but I'm writing An Antari in Wonderland for Mylochka, and then there's Vulcan Side Story....
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 07, 2014, 05:42:53 PM
Thank you!  :D

Would I be correct in thinking that you plan to explore the probability that Sulu has Dissociative Identity Disorder (at least that's what it was called on One Life to Live when a couple of characters had alternate personalities the main personality didn't know about, which were brought on by sexual abuse that occurred when they were very young)?

And it's nice to see that you haven't gone along with this "we don't use money" nonsense. Maybe by the time of Star Trek IV they don't use cash, but you can't tell me they don't use money. Every complex society needs some kind of economy to function.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 07, 2014, 08:46:23 PM
Thank you!  :D

You're most welcome.

Quote
Would I be correct in thinking that you plan to explore the probability that Sulu has Dissociative Identity Disorder (at least that's what it was called on One Life to Live when a couple of characters had alternate personalities the main personality didn't know about, which were brought on by sexual abuse that occurred when they were very young)?

In part, yes.  There will also be exploration of other aspects of the foursome's dynamic (or maybe that should be five some  :)

Quote
And it's nice to see that you haven't gone along with this "we don't use money" nonsense. Maybe by the time of Star Trek IV they don't use cash, but you can't tell me they don't use money. Every complex society needs some kind of economy to function.

Thanks.  That 'no money' idea always bugged me.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 07, 2014, 08:49:01 PM
In part, yes.  There will also be exploration of other aspects of the foursome's dynamic (or maybe that should be five some  :)

They're going to have a baby???!!  :o
Just joking. ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 07, 2014, 08:52:14 PM
They're going to have a five-some.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 07, 2014, 09:10:55 PM
There are already some stories posted about Ruth and Spock's son, Sulu and Jilla's son, plus some other kids.

I'm guessing the fifth person in this group is Del? ;) Or are you counting Sulu's alter-ego Kam as the fifth person?

I'm also trying to guess who takes over as Captain, with both Spock and Sulu having resigned - Scotty's needed in Engineering, Uhura doesn't have enough rank/experience, so maybe a new Captain from another ship?

And I bet McCoy has a ton of questions and opinions about all this!  :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 07, 2014, 09:19:11 PM
The fifth would be Sulu's Jason personality.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 07, 2014, 09:25:26 PM
I don't understand that reference.  ???
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 08, 2014, 12:01:06 AM
There are already some stories posted about Ruth and Spock's son, Sulu and Jilla's son, plus some other kids.

I'm guessing the fifth person in this group is Del? ;) Or are you counting Sulu's alter-ego Kam as the fifth person?

I think I'll just leave that as a mystery for the time being *bwahahaha!*

Quote
I'm also trying to guess who takes over as Captain, with both Spock and Sulu having resigned - Scotty's needed in Engineering, Uhura doesn't have enough rank/experience, so maybe a new Captain from another ship?

That, too, is a mystery left to the future *more evil laughter...*

Quote
And I bet McCoy has a ton of questions and opinions about all this!  :D

Yes indeed!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 08, 2014, 12:04:10 AM
The fifth would be Sulu's Jason personality.

Nooo.... at least I assume you're referring to the version of Sulu who has corresponded with me in the past who 'lives' in the head of a former Valjiir reader named Jason.  He's not in any stories.

And if that's NOT who you're referring to... then I'm just as confused as Valka.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 08, 2014, 12:08:31 AM
I think I'll just leave that as a mystery for the time being *bwahahaha!*   :P ;lol ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2014, 04:13:46 AM
Cher, have you seen this?  (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4177.0;attach=7003)
And This?  (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4177.0;attach=7005)

Valka did the basic art, Mylochka animated, and I tweaked. 

I did a lot of this forum's smilies, and if you have any requests for smilie-like icons or buttons or anything for your site, fire away.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 10, 2014, 11:41:33 AM
Queen Elizabeth and Britney Spears? ;aaa ;cute
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 10, 2014, 02:48:41 PM
I also posted images of Uhura and Daffy Gollub...


Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2014, 05:06:12 PM
(http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4177.0;attach=7264)

I couldn't find Daffy...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 10, 2014, 05:21:20 PM
Oops - looks like I forgot to post her picture! (this one hasn't been tweaked)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2014, 05:38:40 PM
Cute. ;b;
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 12, 2014, 02:10:15 AM
Cher, have you seen this?  ([url]http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4177.0;attach=7003[/url])
And This?  ([url]http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4177.0;attach=7005[/url])

Valka did the basic art, Mylochka animated, and I tweaked. 

I did a lot of this forum's smilies, and if you have any requests for smilie-like icons or buttons or anything for your site, fire away.


These are ADORABLE!  :D  And Daffy and Uhura are likewise wonderful.  BTW, how did you know Daffy likes to wear short skirts that look like a rainbow vomited on it?  ;lol
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 12, 2014, 02:42:18 AM
Cher, have you seen this?  ([url]http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4177.0;attach=7003[/url])
And This?  ([url]http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4177.0;attach=7005[/url])

Valka did the basic art, Mylochka animated, and I tweaked. 

I did a lot of this forum's smilies, and if you have any requests for smilie-like icons or buttons or anything for your site, fire away.


These are ADORABLE!  :D  And Daffy and Uhura are likewise wonderful.  BTW, how did you know Daffy likes to wear short skirts that look like a rainbow vomited on it?  ;lol

Thanks. :)

Um... lucky guess? (about the skirt)  :D


(actually, I studied the pictures and descriptions of how Daffy was dressed off-duty and on shore leave)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 20, 2014, 11:28:26 PM
 ;st
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 23, 2014, 01:09:28 AM
;st
^I made this^

Where's the love?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 23, 2014, 04:33:29 AM
I think it's terrific!  ;b;
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 23, 2014, 04:56:09 AM
:D

Ooh!  Spud's racing the Enterprise!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 23, 2014, 04:59:25 AM
And it looks to me like Spud's winning!  :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 23, 2014, 05:00:43 AM
Yep. ;b;
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 25, 2014, 07:23:29 PM
I just found this: Valjiir Universe (https://www.facebook.com/groups/234799891568/)

Needs story links and more pics.  W/content, and regular activity, this could would draw eyes.  There are millions of people in the world whose tastes would appreciate Valjiir, if only they knew about it.

...

You guys have been quiet lately - there's some good new stuff in the Star Trek thread...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 26, 2014, 01:17:37 AM
I don't do FB very often, but I just sent a Join request. At least it might attract attention from the people on my friends list; all of them are either SF fans, gamers, or both. And one of them also knows Deloris Booker, who used to write poetry for In A Different Reality.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 26, 2014, 01:44:42 AM
;st
^I made this^

Where's the love?

Right here!  Lots and lots of it!  Scotty, Jilla and Del thank you!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 26, 2014, 01:47:10 AM
That could be the basis for a cute little animated Valjiir logo, come to think of it...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 26, 2014, 01:49:22 AM
I just found this: Valjiir Universe (https://www.facebook.com/groups/234799891568/)

Needs story links and more pics.  W/content, and regular activity, this could would draw eyes.  There are millions of people in the world whose tastes would appreciate Valjiir, if only they knew about it.

...

You guys have been quiet lately - there's some good new stuff in the Star Trek thread...

I'd SO forgotten I did that!  It was 5 years ago - can't imagine what I was thinking then.  I'll see if I or Dave can jazz it up.

Yeah, I've been in a funk - unable to write or do much of anything beside kill pixels.  Mea culpa

And I looked at the ST thread (haven't been getting emails from this site - don't know why) and I think if I got into the conversation I'd just end up pissing everyone off.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 26, 2014, 01:49:59 AM
That could be the basis for a cute little animated Valjiir logo, come to think of it...

Go for it!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 26, 2014, 01:54:30 AM
I'll see what I can knock together before bedtime by way of a prototype...

...

Eh, we piss each other off already - don't let that stop you.  People liking (per)versions of Trek are irritating, but not so sad as having no one to talk ST with.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 26, 2014, 01:59:05 AM
About the FB page - maybe post a pic and or story link a day until you're caught up - and then anytime there's anything new...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 26, 2014, 02:07:16 AM
I just found this: Valjiir Universe (https://www.facebook.com/groups/234799891568/)

Needs story links and more pics.  W/content, and regular activity, this could would draw eyes.  There are millions of people in the world whose tastes would appreciate Valjiir, if only they knew about it.

...

You guys have been quiet lately - there's some good new stuff in the Star Trek thread...

I'd SO forgotten I did that!  It was 5 years ago - can't imagine what I was thinking then.  I'll see if I or Dave can jazz it up.

Yeah, I've been in a funk - unable to write or do much of anything beside kill pixels.  Mea culpa

And I looked at the ST thread (haven't been getting emails from this site - don't know why) and I think if I got into the conversation I'd just end up pissing everyone off.
The FB page doesn't have any pictures of Jilla.

Not to worry about pissing anyone off - this forum is positively gentle in comparison to some of what goes on at TrekBBS.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 26, 2014, 02:12:32 AM
Yeah; we don't like being angry, but that motivates us to be patient and kind.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 26, 2014, 04:50:28 AM
Eh, we piss each other off already - don't let that stop you.  People liking (per)versions of Trek are irritating, but not so sad as having no one to talk ST with.

 ;lol
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 26, 2014, 04:51:37 AM
:D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 26, 2014, 08:19:28 AM
I didn't need to sleep, anyway...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 26, 2014, 04:54:07 PM
That's beautiful! :)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 26, 2014, 05:03:53 PM
(http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4177.0;attach=9394)

The starfield was the toughest part.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 26, 2014, 09:25:14 PM
Again?

Well, it paid of. It is a beautiful starscape.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 26, 2014, 09:30:22 PM
Again.  The only practical way to make it work turned out to be starting over.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 30, 2014, 05:32:54 PM
I didn't need to sleep, anyway...

Oh, that's just lovely!  Thank you so much!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 30, 2014, 05:39:11 PM
I think it needs a second draft.  The girls drifting in in synch with the main star layer takes too long, and doesn't really work.  Should fade them in in place like the logo, I think.  Jiila should be in her more day-to-day hair, and perhaps the girls should be flanked by at least Spock and Sulu.

I saved the elements separately, so another go is doable without being a hellish amount of work.  Thoughts?  I'd need some more twickies if we go with that, or headshots of some sort.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 30, 2014, 07:40:34 PM
Thoughts?

If their consorts join them, let them come in from the other side, and flank their partner in the end. That may mean Sulu and Spock need sufficient open space between them if they come in as one 'item' so there's space for Valjiir in the middle, or not if you let them come in separately.

And why not beaming the whole party aboard when they're assembled? :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 30, 2014, 07:43:16 PM
A beaming effect is very doable.

I think it best to have all the heads stationary, though.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 30, 2014, 11:59:52 PM
Well, I could possibly make a more "everyday Jilla" as a starting point, but the site I used doesn't have any way to do Spock and Sulu. It does have male templates, but I'm not at all confident I could figure out anything that would resemble Sulu, let alone Spock.

I did Ruth, Jilla, Uhura, and Daffy on the Zwinky site, if that helps.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 31, 2014, 12:07:35 AM
That helps.  Mylochka seems to vaguely agree with my ideas, and I'd like to kick it around with Cher before I do anything else.  Everyday Jilla would be great - worth doing for itself, anyway.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 31, 2014, 12:12:06 AM
...Two zwinky men with the closest hair you can manage could probably be tweaked into what we need.  Mylochka mentioned a willingness to alter uniforms onto some  zwinkies..
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 31, 2014, 12:17:28 AM
I'll play around a bit and see what happens. It might take awhile, though, because I've registered for Camp NaNoWriMo (month-long writing competition that runs throughout April), and it starts tonight at one second past midnight.

Some of the Zwinky outfits cost points, which are bought with real money. I've got a decent wardrobe built up for "female hotties" but hardly anything for the guys.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 31, 2014, 12:22:02 AM
Plain & black or whatever is fine.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on March 31, 2014, 01:13:08 AM
I like all the suggestions so far.  The beaming our four hero(ine)s in sounds the coolest to me.  And yeah, an everyday Jilla would be preferable.  I'm perfectly confident in Mylochka's ability at tweaking whatever Valka comes up with.  Thanks a lot for putting so much time into this, guys.  It really brightens my mood (which needs serious brightening, BTW).
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 31, 2014, 01:30:13 AM
You do good work that means a lot to people.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on March 31, 2014, 11:19:49 PM
Sorry for the long absence, but still in the midst of chaos on the homefront. 

Just popping my head in (in response to Buncle's strong urging) to post a couple Valjiir pics from the crazy Valjiir version of "Alice in Wonderland" I talked Cher into writing a couple months ago... Hope to be getting more work done on this one soon!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 31, 2014, 11:20:47 PM
Lovely.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on April 01, 2014, 12:10:43 AM
What, no Cheshire cat????  And welcome back, pal.  Gods, I've MISSED you!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on April 01, 2014, 01:02:00 AM
What, no Cheshire cat? ???  And welcome back, pal.  Gods, I've MISSED you!
Cheshire tribble, maybe?  :D Of course they don't have any way to smile...

Those pictures are gorgeous!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on April 01, 2014, 01:02:38 AM
ask and ye shall receive...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 16, 2014, 07:20:13 PM
This thread has begun drawing lurkers, BTW...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on April 16, 2014, 08:20:48 PM
I've been mentioning this thread on TrekBBS, in the fan film sub-forum. Maybe a few people there have decided to check it out. I exchanged a few PMs with somebody who was connected with the Phase II production of "Mind-Sifter", who claimed to know me and wanted to know who I am on the Valjiir site, and seems to think I ought to know her. I told her that on the Valjiir site I am nobody - have no connection at all, other than as a long-time fan, I don't own or run the site, have never written for it, etc.

@Cher, Dave, and Mylochka: Do you recognize the name "Patty/Patricia Wright"?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 16, 2014, 08:25:25 PM
I believe she's dead years ago, if I'm thinking of the right person.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on April 16, 2014, 08:31:38 PM
We exchanged PMs a few weeks ago, so we can't be talking about the same person.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 16, 2014, 08:47:37 PM
On reflection, I was confusing her with the author of The Mind Sifter.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on April 16, 2014, 08:56:08 PM
I think I know Patty Wright... but I can't exactly remember from where....Hmm...  I think she used to write Chekov fanfic... There are so few Chekov fans out there in the webiverse...
Either had her own website or contributed to a Chekov fanfic website I had some connection with... Tell her I said hi!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on April 16, 2014, 10:24:40 PM
Yes, she mentioned some kind of Chekov fanfic - phrased it as "The Chekov fanzine/site" (or close to that).

She seemed to think I should know all about that, but there's still a lot about the different fanfic sites I'm not up on. The only Chekov-centric fanfic I've ever seen online is what's on Orion Press.

I'll pass your greetings along on TrekBBS, though.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 17, 2014, 11:03:52 PM
I thi9nk this is relevant to my argument that Vulcans probably aren't that creative...  http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8339.new#new (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=8339.new#new)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on April 17, 2014, 11:31:01 PM
You are operating on the assumption that Vulcans are always neat and tidy.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2014, 12:20:08 AM
Show me a slob.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on April 18, 2014, 12:25:34 AM
One of the Vulcan characters in the John Ford novel "How Much for Just the Planet?"

I wonder what reason Spock gave for having to requisition a new computer after the events of "Amok Time"? (remember, he punched his first one into a shapeless blob when he got angry)

Edit: Oh, and since this is the Valjiir thread, there's a story where Jilla gets angry and throws her dilithium jewelry around the her/Sulu's quarters.

Also, it's made clear in several Valjiir stories that both Jilla and Spock leave some of their stuff - personal and job-related - lying around their quarters. Plus somehow, Spock adopted a Tribble, which means vacuuming up Tribble hair (don't tell me those hairy things don't shed!)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2014, 12:28:41 AM
I thought How Much for Just the Planet? was insanely disappointing.  I was expecting something different from the author of The Final Reflection...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on April 20, 2014, 12:46:08 AM
The first time I tried to read it, I considered returning it to the bookstore. It was just too WEIRD.

A year or two later I tried again - this time looking at it as an operetta in prose form. So I read the book while imagining myself sitting in the audience of a theatre, watching everything happen on stage. Since I used to work backstage in musical theatre, that's what got me through the book.

It would have made a good operetta - too bad nobody was able to produce it in that form.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 20, 2014, 12:55:12 AM
I'm sure reading it for the first time without The Final Reflection infecting my expectations would have made a huge difference...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on April 26, 2014, 01:29:11 AM
I wonder what reason Spock gave for having to requisition a new computer after the events of "Amok Time"? (remember, he punched his first one into a shapeless blob when he got angry)

I'm guessing some version of "someone spilled plomeek soup on it"  or maybe "I tripped over my tribble in the middle of the night and fell on it" (snicker, grin, chortle)

Quote
Edit: Oh, and since this is the Valjiir thread, there's a story where Jilla gets angry and throws her dilithium jewelry around the her/Sulu's quarters.

True - but Jilla is also Indiian, and they are a very emotional people, so one can't always count her reactions as Vulcan.

Quote
Also, it's made clear in several Valjiir stories that both Jilla and Spock leave some of their stuff - personal and job-related - lying around their quarters. Plus somehow, Spock adopted a Tribble, which means vacuuming up Tribble hair (don't tell me those hairy things don't shed!)

Also true.  I can understand where one would have the impression that Vulcans are neat and orderly - I would say that while they are ORDERLY, that doesn't always mean NEAT.  I have a lot of things in piles and I know just what is in every pile.  My desk isn't neat, but it IS orderly.  I think it's the same with Vulcans.  And Maintenance vacuums up after Sylvester.  ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on April 26, 2014, 01:35:33 AM
I wonder what reason Spock gave for having to requisition a new computer after the events of "Amok Time"? (remember, he punched his first one into a shapeless blob when he got angry)

I'm guessing some version of "someone spilled plomeek soup on it"  or maybe "I tripped over my tribble in the middle of the night and fell on it" (snicker, grin, chortle)
"Dear Starfleet Command:

My pet Tribble, Sylvester, ate my computer, so please send another one (computer, not Tribble). Thank you.

Live long and prosper,

Commander Spock"

 :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 26, 2014, 01:54:04 AM
Logical.   ;spock
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on April 26, 2014, 04:06:26 AM
They didn't had replicators in ToS? I thought it a natural extension of the transporter technology...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on April 26, 2014, 04:15:38 AM
They had very basic ones, but they weren't called "replicators." Kirk complained that the Tribbles got into (and presumably ate) his "chicken sandwich and coffee." McCoy often had Kirk's diet card programmed for salads, and there was a food slot in the transporter room (where Kyle offered the 20th-century Air Force sergeant a bowl of chicken soup). You needed plastic chips to feed into a slot to get the food; you couldn't just tell the machine what you wanted.

I presume there must have been kitchen facilities as well, since the "chefs" were referred to in "Charlie X" (disguising meatloaf to look like turkey) and Christine made plomeek soup for Spock in "Amok Time."

Basic rations looked like gelatin cubes.

So I'd guess in TOS the food selectors were more like vending machines than replicators.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 26, 2014, 04:18:19 AM
Harlan Ellison allegedly shot a VO as a chef on the intercom...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 28, 2014, 10:07:20 PM
Last week I liked the last several pics on the Valjiir Universe FB page and nagged Mylochka into posting something new, which I also just now liked.

My account is only a sock full of misinformation to protect my privacy, but I suddenly find myself with three FB friends and it being the best way to get a response from sisko about anything, so now I have to keep a tab open a lot of the time, and just as well do every little bit I can to help - those 'likes' spread the word around...  The current GotM has done record traffic on the strength of Facebook promotion, the promo threads at the SMACX section of Civilisation forums having been disappointing for views, despite special-interest traffic.

Is there a reason that can be fixed why I can't like the page itself?  I see my like of the last pic didn't bump it because it was already in my timeline when M posted it.

Incidentally, the searchbots have found this thread, and occasionally I see lurkers whose IPs I can't identify.  Some successful promotion is happening...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on June 04, 2014, 02:46:23 PM
I've been mentioning this thread on TrekBBS, in the fan film sub-forum. Maybe a few people there have decided to check it out. I exchanged a few PMs with somebody who was connected with the Phase II production of "Mind-Sifter", who claimed to know me and wanted to know who I am on the Valjiir site, and seems to think I ought to know her. I told her that on the Valjiir site I am nobody - have no connection at all, other than as a long-time fan, I don't own or run the site, have never written for it, etc.

@Cher, Dave, and Mylochka: Do you recognize the name "Patty/Patricia Wright"?

Yes, I know the name, but am currently having a senior moment about who exactly she is.  Trek. definitely, but other than that.....
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on June 04, 2014, 02:51:37 PM
They had very basic ones, but they weren't called "replicators." Kirk complained that the Tribbles got into (and presumably ate) his "chicken sandwich and coffee." McCoy often had Kirk's diet card programmed for salads, and there was a food slot in the transporter room (where Kyle offered the 20th-century Air Force sergeant a bowl of chicken soup). You needed plastic chips to feed into a slot to get the food; you couldn't just tell the machine what you wanted.

I presume there must have been kitchen facilities as well, since the "chefs" were referred to in "Charlie X" (disguising meatloaf to look like turkey) and Christine made plomeek soup for Spock in "Amok Time."

Basic rations looked like gelatin cubes.

So I'd guess in TOS the food selectors were more like vending machines than replicators.

Correct.  They were called 'food synthesizers' and used protein, vegetable (etc.) cubes to approximate normal food.  And yes, the Big E had a galley.  Actual replicators were introduced late in the series and could fabricate limited things, like replacement parts, but nothing fancy.  Valjiir just took the concept and ran with it, much the way TNG did  ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valjiir1 on June 04, 2014, 02:53:49 PM
Last week I liked the last several pics on the Valjiir Universe FB page and nagged Mylochka into posting something new, which I also just now liked.

My account is only a sock full of misinformation to protect my privacy, but I suddenly find myself with three FB friends and it being the best way to get a response from sisko about anything, so now I have to keep a tab open a lot of the time, and just as well do every little bit I can to help - those 'likes' spread the word around...  The current GotM has done record traffic on the strength of Facebook promotion, the promo threads at the SMACX section of Civilisation forums having been disappointing for views, despite special-interest traffic.

Is there a reason that can be fixed why I can't like the page itself?  I see my like of the last pic didn't bump it because it was already in my timeline when M posted it.

Incidentally, the searchbots have found this thread, and occasionally I see lurkers whose IPs I can't identify.  Some successful promotion is happening...

I'd answer this, except you already know I didn't understand a word except I know what 'posting pics' means  :-[
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 07:12:19 PM
Well, since you have something on the net you want promoted, you ought to know this stuff - it's not like it's code and math, which would glaze my eyes over, too.

"Like" is a Facebook function; it shows up in the timeline of your profile and spreads the word to everyone you've "friended".  My Facebook account is a "sock", (like sock-puppet,) with a fake name, because Facebook is Big Brother and knows way too much about me from digging through the email I gave them.  I don't like Facebook, but it's an incredibly useful promotional tool.

Lurkers are non-members browsing.  IPs are Internet Providers - they show up as a numbers the web uses to keep track of things, so I know non-members look at this thread when I check.  Searchbots are programs internet search engines like Google use to find what's on a website so they can index it and it can be found when searched for.  You REALLY want that happening if you want your audience for Valjiir to be able to find you.  Random people may well turn out to like your style if they look, so you want to maximum people looking.  The more sites the URL (web address for the Valjiir site) happens to be on, the more it will turn up in searches and the higher Google and the others will rank your Valjiir site in searches.  That matters.

Is that enough to translate my last?  Any questions?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on June 04, 2014, 07:14:31 PM
Okay, am I officially endorsed to ROFL now? ;cute
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2014, 07:24:22 PM
At what?  Laugh at me all you want.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on July 11, 2014, 07:37:34 PM
Trying to get back to illustrating. Even though I have started illustrating several other stories, I'm working on illos for a story called "Kiss the Cook" www.valjiir.us/kissthecook.html (http://www.valjiir.us/kissthecook.html) because I don't have all my illustration "tools" in place yet. This story takes place entirely on the ship with no exotic locations or "guest stars" and therefore could be done with my (temporarily) limited resources...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on July 11, 2014, 07:50:53 PM
This story is a result of my fondness for anime.  In the same way that during the 1960's and 70's almost every TV series or cartoon had to have a "evil twin" or "spend-the-night-in-a haunted-mansion-to-inherit-a-fortune" episode, the "cooking contest" is standard issue plot device for anime.  Pops up all the time.  After seeing a cooking contest plot turn up in a usually quite serious action/horror series I was following, I started reflecting on why this was a standard narrative convention for Japan and not the U.S.  I didn't get a lot further than supposing this had something to do with Japan's strong storytelling traditions centered around the competitive and demanding profession of sushi chef contrasted to the way cooking is usually relegated to the "women's work" dungeon in the U.S. Then instead of pursuing this line of cross cultural comparison any further, my brain started to whittle away at the thought -- How would a cooking contest episode look in the Valjiir universe?  This story was the product of my musings.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 12, 2014, 05:22:36 AM
...What I find interesting about this is that when they weren't entertaining guests on the Enterprise, they generally ate cubes of foam rubber, only a step short of "nutrient pills"...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on July 12, 2014, 12:20:52 PM
True.   The Valjiir stories, these folks have an established tradition of occasionally having "I Hate Replicators" parties where they treat themselves to a non-reconstituted meal prepared by volunteers from amongst the crew.  I think this is a reasonable speculation on what starship personnel might do on long hauls between shore leave opportunities.  Space foam rubber might be super-future-nutritious, but it would probably get mighty boring mighty quick.  The cooking contest is one of these special meals... with the extra twist of having a chef contest as part of it.

In this story, several scenes take place in the galley.  The Enterprise's galley was referred to in the episode "Charlie X" but never shown on screen.  There were scenes set in the galley in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country, but that was very different ship design.  Therefore this set is my original extrapolation of what a ship's galley might look like based on other TOS sets.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on July 12, 2014, 08:14:13 PM
No "Kiss the Cook" aprons? Or is that too 20th/21st-century?  :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 12, 2014, 08:15:23 PM
I would think that in Valjiir, kissing the cook is something that would definitely happen...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on July 12, 2014, 11:11:38 PM
 ;lol I actually thought about aprons, but I didn't have a model that would fit over the tunic....
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on July 13, 2014, 08:06:22 AM
;lol I actually thought about aprons, but I didn't have a model that would fit over the tunic....

Captains shouldn't put their elbows 1) so low (it undermines their stature of command 2) so close to buttons&switches which could unleash havoc on everything and its cat in near space!  :mad:

That said, nice renders there. ;popcorn
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on July 13, 2014, 08:38:11 AM
Sulu isn't the Captain.  ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Green1 on July 13, 2014, 11:23:50 AM
The only ST folks I saw actually cook were Sisko (ds9) and Neelix (voy)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on July 13, 2014, 04:03:55 PM
I'll speak with Sulu about his posture... We don't want him accidentally hitting the self-destruct button, do we?

Here's a picture of Chekov eating some foam rubber cubes and spheres while his girlfriend tries to talk him into entering the cooking contest.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on July 13, 2014, 06:30:23 PM
He has to cut those teeny things up?  ;lol

I didn't realize synthesized food was so hard to chew...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on July 13, 2014, 07:29:08 PM
Foam rubber is pretty tough...  Wouldn't want him to choke on it, now would we?

The story calls for a couple scenes to take place in a repair compartment located over the galley.  Here's my first try at this non-canonical set.  It's supposed to be cramped, but I think I've got it too small right now...

Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on July 13, 2014, 07:32:26 PM
It's roomier than a similar set would have been on Star Trek Voyager.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on July 14, 2014, 07:26:58 AM
That was my impression too.

On Chakov's chewing scene, both main figures in the scene have that Russian outlook.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on July 18, 2014, 12:04:13 AM
In this illustration, Daffy Gollub is anxious to see whether or not disgust with a non-stop diet of foam rubber cubes will tempt Del into entering the cooking contest...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on July 19, 2014, 10:36:27 AM
 ;lol ;b;
Should be a no-brainer. Unless women in the 23th century aren't that picky anymore about what to stuff in their mouth. ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on July 19, 2014, 11:01:08 AM
I'm very impressed with how clean the tables are.  :)


Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on July 19, 2014, 12:32:06 PM
One could eat of them! :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on July 21, 2014, 03:04:02 AM
Daphne Gollub tries to calculate who will be the odds-on favorite in the cooking contest...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on July 21, 2014, 03:29:42 AM
Something looks odd with their rank stripes - when was Daffy ever an Ensign while Ruth was a Lieutenant?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on July 21, 2014, 03:03:37 PM
I think so, but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on July 21, 2014, 03:39:08 PM
Was Daffy an Ensign at the same time that Ruth was a Lieutenant and Del was aboard? What are their ranks during this cooking contest story?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on July 22, 2014, 02:34:47 AM
It's hard to find references to Daffy's rank in the stories.  Ruth is identified as a lieutenant at the beginning of "D'Artangnan and the Silver Streak"  which comes before this story.  Del becomes a lieutenant at the end of "Redshirts," so he's a lieutenant.  Daffy is identified as lieutenant in "Could Mohammed Move a Mountain?" which comes not that long after this story... I don't know. Maybe she should be a lieutenant here.... I'm not sure now what made me think she was still an ensign...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on July 22, 2014, 01:03:29 PM
Which begs the question how many lieutenants does the Enterprise need?
What was the amount of crew? About 400?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on July 22, 2014, 02:46:44 PM
The number given in the episodes is usually around 430.  And yeah, there are always a lot of lieutenants.  The majority of named minor characters are lieutenants. I think they outnumber the ensigns we meet.  We definitely see more lieutenants than yeomen.  At one time I could have given you a tally of the (relatively small) number of characters identified as being just crewmen, but I've forgotten it now. Not only does the Enterprise have a lot of lieutenants, the ship even has a lot of characters at the rank of lieutenant commander.  Apparently those few crewmen need lots of supervision...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 03, 2014, 06:39:45 PM
Maybe starships have more higher ranking officers because their missions are -- as Kirk repeatedly says before he's about to photon torpedo some alien's butt out of existence -- primarily scientific.  They have a lot of science specialists whose rank could reflect their advanced degrees and experience in their field... even though some of a lot of those specialists -- for example their archeologist and historian -- seem to be attractive young women in their early to mid-twenties...

Anyway, you were right, Valka.  Daphne Gollub is a lieutenant at this point in the series.  Here she is with the correct sleeve-bling...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 06, 2014, 09:08:13 PM
Pictures from Star Trek: Phase Two's upcoming production of "Mindsifter"  have been popping up on my Facebook feed recently.  Seeing pictures of their "Captain Spock" made me think of Valjiir's "Shadow Captain" story arc -- which is based on the same premise.  Kirk is abducted by Klingons, who use the Mind Sifter on him, then send him back into the past.  The Valjiir stories focus on what happens to Spock as he becomes captain and tries to track down the Klingon's trail.

These stories were among the very first created illustrations for.  Looking back on them, I decided I could do a little better now than I did then.  Here's one of the new illustrations for these stories..
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 06, 2014, 10:45:01 PM
It's nice to see Daffy's uniform corrected.  :)

I've been looking forward to Phase II's version of Mind-Sifter. There's certainly been a lot of discussion about it at TrekBBS, including your acquaintance Patty Wright (aka andreich) causing a lot of drama there, dredging up behind-the-scenes arguments.

I've been reading Cher's alternate Shadow Captain story, in which Spock, Ruth, Sulu, and Jilla do resign to look for Kirk on their own. I hope she'll be writing some more of that, because I am hooked!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on August 07, 2014, 03:55:47 PM
Pictures from Star Trek: Phase Two's upcoming production of "Mindsifter"  have been popping up on my Facebook feed recently.  Seeing pictures of their "Captain Spock" made me think of Valjiir's "Shadow Captain" story arc -- which is based on the same premise.  Kirk is abducted by Klingons, who use the Mind Sifter on him, then send him back into the past.  The Valjiir stories focus on what happens to Spock as he becomes captain and tries to track down the Klingon's trail.

These stories were among the very first created illustrations for.  Looking back on them, I decided I could do a little better now than I did then.  Here's one of the new illustrations for these stories..

Somehow the consoles in that pic (or at least the graphic displays) come over more interactive then what I remember of the ToS Enterprise bridge.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 09, 2014, 01:43:16 PM
More interactive?  There were always a lot of buttons to be pressed.... I didn't create this model, but it's someone's best approximation of what the set looked like.

Valka - I'm looking forward to "Mindsifter" too.  Eager to see that crew's new actor for Kirk in action.

Here's another bridge scene from one of the "Shadow Captain" stories
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on August 09, 2014, 07:12:24 PM
More interactive?  There were always a lot of buttons to be pressed.... I didn't create this model, but it's someone's best approximation of what the set looked like.

I guess it looks to me like that because these are still pictures.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 09, 2014, 08:25:23 PM
You think the buttons look a little flat?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on August 09, 2014, 08:31:58 PM
No. But then again, I was talking about the displays, not the buttons.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 10, 2014, 03:01:19 AM
Oh, I get you now.  Yes, in this model, the displays are flat.

I think they were just screens in the series too. Here's a screenshot from "Enterprise Incident" where you can see the ones behind the science station.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 23, 2014, 02:10:19 AM
Quiz:

A)  What's wrong with the basic posing of this panel?

(http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/uploads/TerryThielen/2014-08-22_065354_jimlee-x-men-06.jpg)

B)  What's the Valjiir connection?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 23, 2014, 03:57:45 AM
A) almost everything?
B) Noel DelMonde, like Gambit, numbers among the top 10 Cajun superheroes of all time

Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 23, 2014, 04:05:41 AM
A)  Rogue is punching downwards/left, while Gamit's chin goes up/right.  Also acceptable would be a joke about her right leg being twice as long as her left - or noting that Gambit's in the panel.

B) No, Gambit sucks, so that can't be it.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 23, 2014, 10:50:03 PM
You will like this: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7298.msg53595#msg53595 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7298.msg53595#msg53595)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 23, 2014, 10:55:00 PM
A) so I was correct

B) Gambit rules, cher. Laissez le bon temp rouler!  8)

I've started adding some new illustrations to the "Shadow Captain" stories and replacing some of the old ones that I have the resources to do a little better work on now.  Here's one from "Perfectus Logica" (formerly called "Watermark" in which Spock has a meeting that does not go as well as he seems to have anticipated it might...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 23, 2014, 10:56:21 PM
You will like this: [url]http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7298.msg53595#msg53595[/url] ([url]http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=7298.msg53595#msg53595[/url])


Tee hee... but this is not a good translation of Frida's reaction to such a question, I'm betting...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on August 24, 2014, 09:20:32 AM
Damn but Mc Coy looks old there.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 27, 2014, 09:32:26 PM
I guess trying to keep up with all those wild Valjiir folks is really aging him...

Here's another new "Shadow Captain" illustration.  This one illustrates this passage in "Hallowed Be":

DelMonde went to the Engineering Station, got a status report from Geoff Redford, dismissed him, and sat down in his place. His eyes and fingers moved across the board automatically, checking, adjusting, all the while he was acutely aware of the man who sat so rigidly in the con. If there was any noise or movement on the Bridge he didn't hear or see it. He and Spock were quite alone but for a third presence, invisible, between them, being torn apart by them.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 27, 2014, 10:01:39 PM
Very nice.  :)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on August 28, 2014, 07:37:30 AM
Ouch. Was the "third presence" showing fickle tendencies, or was there an emotional interloper in an existing relationship. Or something else entirely. ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 28, 2014, 09:02:23 AM
At that point in the series, Spock and Ruth are married. Del is one of Ruth's old lovers, and he still loves her. This story is one of the ones in which Spock has had to hold himself apart from Ruth so she doesn't find out the bargain he made with Starfleet, to allow him to keep searching for Kirk (who had been kidnapped by the Klingons). Del thinks Spock is treating Ruth horribly, and wants to comfort her. But as awful as her treatment from Spock is, she still loves her husband.

It's a classic lovers' triangle, where all three people have an understandable reason for feeling and acting as they do, although that reason may not be known to all three.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 28, 2014, 06:02:41 PM
And now for something completely different...

While I was on a "re-illoing" spree, I decided to go back and work on some of the "Hotel California" stories that I gave short shrift the first time around.  In this series of stories, a group of our heroes drops in on a "psychocin" while on shoreleave.  This new-fangled gadget (dreamed up years before TNG introduced the holodeck) scans the brainwaves of theater patrons and randomly projects input from them into generic movie plots.  Unfortunately, the machine doesn't quite know how to handle the input from the telepath and empath in the group from the Enterprise and focuses on them (and their various deep-seated anxieties) to ill effect.

In one of these stories, Ruth and Jilla end up starring as a rag-tag team of star pilots in a seedy spacer's bar looking for the next get-rich-quick opportunity to turn up. 
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 28, 2014, 06:04:32 PM
At that point in the series, Spock and Ruth are married. Del is one of Ruth's old lovers, and he still loves her. This story is one of the ones in which Spock has had to hold himself apart from Ruth so she doesn't find out the bargain he made with Starfleet, to allow him to keep searching for Kirk (who had been kidnapped by the Klingons). Del thinks Spock is treating Ruth horribly, and wants to comfort her. But as awful as her treatment from Spock is, she still loves her husband.

It's a classic lovers' triangle, where all three people have an understandable reason for feeling and acting as they do, although that reason may not be known to all three.

Nice summary!

Here's one more "Shadow Captain" picture to the same effect...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on August 28, 2014, 08:02:25 PM
Spock's "deal" with Star Fleet here sounds pretty atypical for the series? Isn't their civilization supposed to be more open to the kind of emotional entanglements its members allow themself to roll into?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 28, 2014, 08:48:16 PM
Spock's deal was that he would serve as the Captain of the Enterprise and in return, he'd be allowed to search for Kirk. This meant patrolling the border between the Federation and Klingon space. He also couldn't let Ruth and Jilla know what was going on, since they'd insist on doing things their own way. All of them are telepaths, so Spock had to maneuver an estrangement between himself and Ruth, and himself and Jilla. Starfleet didn't care how Spock managed to keep the terms they set, so long as he complied.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 29, 2014, 06:15:17 PM
Another laudably concise explanation of that plotline...

Here's another picture of "spacer Valjiir" from the story "Queen's Necklace"
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 29, 2014, 06:27:02 PM
At that point in the series, Spock and Ruth are married. Del is one of Ruth's old lovers, and he still loves her. This story is one of the ones in which Spock has had to hold himself apart from Ruth so she doesn't find out the bargain he made with Starfleet, to allow him to keep searching for Kirk (who had been kidnapped by the Klingons). Del thinks Spock is treating Ruth horribly, and wants to comfort her. But as awful as her treatment from Spock is, she still loves her husband.

It's a classic lovers' triangle, where all three people have an understandable reason for feeling and acting as they do, although that reason may not be known to all three.
Nice summary!
Thanks! :)

I've reread this series several times since I first received the print 'zine in the mail all those years ago, plus reading the online version.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 18, 2014, 06:39:41 PM
I want to tease a little bit of story Cher and I are working on right now.  It's an alternate version of the "Shadow Captain" storyline. (See Valka's very clear and succinct summaries of that plotline in the above posts)

The inspiration for this alternative came when I was working for some new illustrations for the story "Danse Macabre." Sulu (who is first officer in this storyline) and Noel DelMonde have a tense exchange on the bridge while they wait to find out if the Klingons have captured the Galileo -- the shuttle Ruth Valley and Jilla Majiir were in.  At first I had them glaring at each other, but in the second picture, I had them both turn and glare at Spock.

This got me to thinking -- what if instead of unwillingly obeying Spock's orders the two of them had joined forces  and found a way to temporarily get him out of the way so they could effect a rescue -- Not, as Del insists - so much of a full mutiny as it is "A Little Bit of Treachery"
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 18, 2014, 06:42:56 PM
So, here's the excerpt -- Spock has been temporarily knocked unconscious and Sulu is in command.  They've taken the ship into a cloud of material that baffles sensors to the point that it results in temporary invisibility for the ship.

"A Little Bitty Bit of Treachery"
by Cher Petterson and Mylochka


“Sir!”  Bergman called suddenly from the Science station.  “The cloud – it’s starting to thin…”

Sulu frowned.  “No sign of the Galileo?”

“Sign of… something…”  The young man stiffened, then turned.  “Ships, sir.  Two of them at least. Big.”

The helmsman’s mouth hardened into a tight thin line.  “Klingon?”

“Very probably, sir.”  Bergman rechecked his readings.  “We’re going to exit the cloud right on top of them.”

Well, you were thinking a surprise attack would work best,” Del’s voice drawled in his mind as the helmsman adjusted his course based on the freshly updated readings to avoid a collision.

I didn’t plan on being one of the ones surprised,” Sulu thought back.  Aloud, he ordered, “Keep your eyes peeled for that shuttle, Bergman.”

“Yes, sir!”

“Battle stations!”  he called over his shoulder to the Communications Officer. 

Paradoxically the all-too familiar screech of the klaxons steadied him as his battle-ready heart sent warm blood coursing swiftly through his veins.  He hoped the alert signal would have the same effect on his less-experienced third watch crew.  Now was the time for all the drills everyone had been hating him for to pay off.  He had faith in each and every hand-picked name on the bridge’s duty roster – first watch to third.  The Vulcan’s hellish drilling schedule had at least given him that.  There was only one position he had any regrets about.  Monique wasn’t a bad shot.  She just wasn’t quite as good as….

“Relieving you, Miss Dubois,” a familiarly accented voice said, appearing at his elbow as if by magic. Chekov gave his old helm-partner a grateful smile as he slid into the seat behind the navigation console.  “Reporting as ordered, sir.”

It only took Sulu’s brain a half-second to supply the name of someone who could have convinced the Russian that he’d been ordered to the bridge.

Monique was nervous as a cat,” that person argued preemptively.  “And you know this son of a babushka is too dumb not to have nothing but the ice-cold waters of the Volga flowing through his veins.”

Settle down, Cajun,” he reprimanded silently.

Sorry,” DelMonde grumbled unrepentantly inside his head.  “It my first mutiny – I a little excited.”

And still amped up on whatever it had taken to knock Spock out, Sulu decided. Without  waiting for confirmation, he turned to the navigator.  “We target the biggest ship -- or closest -- of the two.  Weapons, engines, bridge – in that order.  Have a full spread of photon torpedoes ready to keep the second one busy.”

“Aye, sir,” Chekov acknowledged, his fingers already communicating their intentions to the waiting Weaponry crews.

“Readings, Bergman!” he demanded, keeping more than half his attention on the thinning but still treacherous verilium-obsitrate cloud.

“Clearing,” the young man reported. “But still indeterminate.”

“Can they see us yet?”

“Doubtful.  If they’re running sweeps on the cloud, they may read…”  Bergman suddenly broke off.  “Captain! Thinning rapidly now.  We’re visible in 5…4… 3… 2…!”

“Sheee—it,” Del breathed from the Engineering station as the sparkling veil that had been cloaking the main viewer seemed to lift, revealing an alarmingly close view of the heavily armed aft section of a Klingon vessel.

“Fire!!”  Sulu cried, rolling the ship hard to starboard with all his skill and might.

Quick as thought, Chekov sent screaming beams of green death into the warbird.

Impacts blazed blue and red so close to their own ship that the Enterprise shuddered with the wounds she’d inflicted on the warbird.

“The Galileo!”  Del shouted, pointing at the viewscreen while he hung onto the bridge’s railing. 

“Photons! Now!” Sulu ordered, wrestling the ship back to port in time to avoid ramming the second ship.

“The first ship’s engines are damaged!” Bergman yelled, hanging onto his console for dear life as the torpedoes exploded against the hull of the second vessel.  “Tractor beams failing.  The Galileo is starting to drift.”

“Get a beam on her, Del!” Sulu shouted over his shoulder, but the engineer was kneeling on the deck, his face contorted with pain as he struggled back to his station.

“No life signs on the shuttle!” Bergman reported.

They got ‘em somewhere in the lower decks.” DelMonde’s mental “voice” was agonized.  “Sweet Jesus, what them monsters done to my sweet girl?”

“Target their bridge first, then their weapons,” Sulu ordered, grimly swinging the ship around for another run at the flagship.  “We’ve got to take out those forward shields.  Bergman, pinpoint Antari and Indiian readings.”

A near-miss blast from the second ship sizzled past the lower right hand corner of the main viewscreen, accidentally tagging the starboard pylon of the flagship.

“Thank you.”  Chekov grinned as he poured a blazing line of lethal green down the flagship’s main hull.  “I was just about to get to that.”

“Shields weakened but still holding,” Bergman reported.  “Flagship charging weapons.”

The second Klingon’s next shot was less wild and hit them midships as they turned to make their next run of the flagship.

“Feed him some more photons, Chekov,” Sulu said, whirling the ship around to give his partner a better angle.

“Shuttle in tow,” DelMonde reported, finally pulling himself back up to standing and wrenching his mind out of whatever hell Ruth was experiencing.  “Deflector shields holding, but we took some damage.”

They flew into the second Klingon’s teeth, firing volley after volley of torpedoes.  The Klingon stubbornly returned fire.  Just at the moment Sulu began to fear the warbird was going to insist on a head-on collision, the Klingon peeled off to starboard in an attempt to strafe their main hull.

“Aft torpedoes!” the helmsman ordered, cutting the engines in the sort of abrupt deceleration that was more natural to a needle than a starship.

Shee-it, Kam!” Del protested inside his head as the ship whirled wildly.  “You trying to tear this thing up?”

Sulu grinned as the warbird overshot, taking another torpedo hit and them leaving a momentarily clear path back to the flagship.  “Whacha gonna do? Take the keys and put her up on blocks?”

Don’t be tempting me,” the Cajun warned.

“Chekov, target those forward shields again,” Sulu ordered, tilting the ship into a sharp approach vector intended to give the flagship as little flank as possible to aim at.  “Bergman, I need those readings now.”

“Yes, sir!”

The helmsman freed one hand up just long enough to hit the comm. button.  “Transporter room.”

“Scott, here.  Standing by for coordinates.”

Good man.  Sulu concluded.  Sickening red began to bloom from the Klingon’s weapon ports.  “Bergman, I need those readings now!!”

“Sir, I…” the Science Officer began helplessly, not daring to take his eyes from his viewscreen.

“This may help, Mr. Bergman,” Chekov said, confidently pressing the buttons to release a burning line of energy into the Klingon’s duranium-plated hide.

“That my boy!” DelMonde congratulated his roommate as a satisfying plume of fire rose from the Klingon’s hull.  “Forward shields buckling!”

“Got ‘em, sir!”  Bergman reported.  “Transferring coordinates to Mr. Scott!”

The ship suddenly lurched to one side as a hit from nowhere exploded against their starboard flank. 

“A third Klingon warship!”  Bergman reported a little belatedly.  “Must have been obscured by the cloud.”

“Damage reports coming in from all decks!” DelMonde reported grimly.  “Power down to eighty-six percent!”

“Mr. Scott, are you still with us?”  Sulu shouted in to the comm. as he struggled to wrest the limping ship back on course. 

“Locking on now, Sulu,” the Scotsman replied.

“Target his weapons, Chekov,” Sulu said, bringing the ship in closer proximity to the Klingon’s shields than the manufacturer’s handbook recommended. “I’m going to give you a nice shot.”

“Alarmingly nice, Mr. Sulu,” Chekov agreed as they came near to skimming the outer pylons.

“We have the lasses, Sulu!”

“Fire!” the helmsman commanded, wishing the inhabitants of that vessel a particularly uncomfortable death.

Repercussions of the blasts rocked the ship as they twirled out back towards the verilium-obsitrate cloud.

“Oh, hell,” Del swore.  “They gonna follow us.”

“Bergman?”  Sulu queried urgently as the sparkling veil of verilium descended again over the main viewer and the ship jostled into the rough terrain of the cloud.

“The flagship is probably too badly damaged to pursue,” the Science Officer replied.  “But the other two ships have penetrated the cloud.”

“And now we can’t see them,” Sulu said, glancing down at the nonsensical proximity readings his console was providing him.

Another blast jolted the ship to one side.

“But we’re leaking plasma,” Del apologized.

“So, they can see us,” Sulu concluded, adding zig-zags to his already complex course following a breadcrumb trail of converted probes through the cloud’s minefield of pockets.  “Cajun, get on that plasma leak!”

“Yes, sir!” DelMonde replied, gesturing a crewman from Damage Control to temporarily replace him as he exited.

“Sulu,” Chekov said slowly as he studied the muddled readings from his instruments.  “If the Klingon vessels are following the plasma trail…”

Sulu could have kicked himself for not drawing this conclusion first. “Best guess at their coordinates.  Fire phasers aft!”

“Aye, sir!” 

There was a familiar whine as the phasers were deployed.  Then the sparkles on the mainscreen ignited into a multi-colored shimmer.

“Bergman?” Sulu asked, unable to make any more sense of the new readings his console was recording than the old.

The Science Officer spread his hands.  “I think we may have hit one of our converted probes.”

The helmsman turned to the navigator.  “A better guess next time, Pavel?”

“Much better, Sulu,” the navigator promised, chagrined. 

Before he could program his next volley, the ship shuddered with a new impact.

“Aft shields failing,” the Damage Control officer, Richardson, reported.

The Enterprise’s phasers whined again.  This time, the thick space surrounding them rumbled with the aftershocks of what had to have been an impact on one of their pursuers.

“A definite improvement, Navigator.”  Sulu nodded as he zig-zaged their starship down the twinkling trail of magnetic probes they’d left on their way in.

“Thank you, Commander,” Chekov replied politely as his fingers worked frantically over his board.  “May I try again?”

“At your discretion, Mr. Chekov,” the helmsman invited him generously as he twisted the ship in a sharp turn to avoid a pocket that reared up suddenly in their path.

“Power loss has slowed,” Richardson reported, “But is continuing. We’ve taken damage to the thrusters.”

Sulu nodded as he attempted another abrupt portside turn.  “I can feel it, Mr. Richardson. Maneuverability is down.  She’s getting sluggish.”

The phasers whined again.  The bridge crew held their breath for a second but there was no sign of the shudder that had accompanied the last hit.

“Clean miss,” Chekov concluded.

The ship lurched as the Klingon used Chekov’s last trick against him and used the trajectory of his phasers to guess the Enterprise’s location.

“Nobody likes a smartass,” Sulu muttered ducking and weaving dangerously between his breadcrumb probes.

“Aft shields have buckled,” Richardson reported.  “Their next shot could take out our engines.”

“Not gonna happen,” his commander assured him.  “Estimating the far edge of the cloud, Bergman?”

“Of the forty-five probes we launched, we’ve cleared twenty-three,” the Science Officer reported, sounding like he was making an effort to be optimistic.

“Bridge,” the comm. crackled.  “This is DelMonde.  We got the plasma leak plugged.”

“Fixed?”  Sulu clarified.

“I said plugged,” Delmonde replied dryly.  “It’ll hold for about half-hour or so if you can manage to stop shaking the ship around.”

Despite the Cajun’s typical nonchalance, Sulu thought he could hear an edge to the engineer’s tone.  He had to be as eager to get to sickbay as the helmsman himself was.

The ship nearly sloshed into one of their probes as she wallowed around yet another of the sharp turns Sulu ordered her to perform.  “I could manage a lot better if we could get power back up.”

Mais, if you see a space dock out here, pull over and we’ll get this thing fixed right up,” the engineer replied sarcastically.

There was a sharp cracking noise nearby.

“Bergman?” Sulu demanded as a shimmer filled the screen.

“The Klingons are…”

“…destroying the probes,” Sulu and Delmonde finished with him. 

“Bastards!” the engineer swore.

“Del, I need speed.”

“Some things never change.”  The Cajun drew in a deep breath.  “I do got an idea, but I not know if Scotty’ll go for it.”

Sulu gave the next probe a wide berth.  “Why not?”

“It be a little crazy.”

“Plain crazy or suicidal crazy?”

“Just plain crazy,” the engineer assured him.

“Tell Scotty you have my blessing,” Sulu decided.  “Report progress.”

“Aye, sir,” the engineer replied, snapping off the link.

The screen filled with shimmers as the Klingons destroyed another glimmering probe.

“How do they think they’re going to navigate out of this soup?”  Chekov asked, frustrated.

“Destroying us is priority one right now,” Sulu replied curtly as he coaxed his increasingly sluggish controls into another hard dive to the starboard side of the twinkling probe.  “They’ll worry about survival at their leisure after that.”

A sparkling probe just ahead of them burst into a shooting star of dazzling dust.

“How many probes left, Bergman?”

“Seventeen.”

“Chekov, when they fire again, best guess and fire photons,” Sulu ordered.  “I’m going to decelerate and let them blow past us.”

“But they will continued to destroy our probes,” the navigator objected.

“Trace their line of fire back and keep hitting them with phasers like they’re doing to us.  We’ve got to disable their weapons before they disable us”

“If we lose the trail of probes, we could all end up lost in this cloud,” the Russian pointed out.  “Sensors are useless for aiming our weapons…. And we are losing power. Soon we will not be able to maneuver. And there are two Klingon ships and one of us…”

“I’m aware of the possibilities, mister,” Sulu interrupted grimly. 

Chekov drew in a deep breath and nodded understandingly.  Command decision. That’s what it meant to be the person bearing the ultimate responsibility of being in control of a starship.  “Yes, sir.  Preparing to fire on your order.”

“Bridge,” the comm. link crackled to life.  “This is Delmonde.”

“What have you got for me, Del?”

“A daft scheme,” Scotty was grumbling in the back ground.  “E’en more daft than the first…”

“We gonna try creating a controlled explosion in the secondary thrusters using a borobsitrate compound.”

“Where are you getting borobsitrate?”

“We make some by superaccelerating a half ton of obsitrate we beamed in from the cloud.”

“Unstable mess of worthless junk…” DelMonde’s superior fretted discontentedly.  “As likely to blow our crystals as boost them.”

“It just gonna be a boost – if it work,” the Cajun warned.  “Not gonna last more than a minute or two.  But it gonna shoot us up out this cloud like a cannonball.”

The screen filled with shimmers again as the Klingons blew the next probe out of existence.

“How fast?”

“I dunno,” the Cajun admitted.  “Maybe beyond warp twelve or so for a few seconds.”

“Will shake us apart,” Scott predicted.  “Or blow the engines so badly we’ll be lucky to make warp two.”

“We got a steady power loss,” Delmonde stated. “We down to 67% and they not a thing we can do to fix that in this cloud.  We got a brace of Klingons on our tail and plasma leak that’s fixing to break loose again here in a minute and light us up like a neon bullseye. This the best option I got for you.  It not a sure thing, but it all I got.  Whether or not you take it is up to you.’

Sulu took in a deep breath as he ducked the ship under another probe.  “Scotty?”

“He may be a madman,” the Chief engineer conceded, “but the lad has the right of it when he says we’re in a fix and we’ve no other option to offer ye. ‘Tis your decision, Commander.”

The helmsman took in a deep breath.  To have tricked the Vulcan out of this ship only to destroy it… To have saved two precious lives only to lose all four hundred and thirty…

“Prepare the booster, DelMonde,” Sulu ordered.

“Ready on your mark,” the Cajun replied.

The helmsman hit the button on the intercom that would broadcast his voice throughout the ship.  “Attention all hands – Brace for acceleration.” 

Beside him, Chekov gripped the sides of his console.  “A straight line course between the remaining probes and out of the cloud plotted and on your board, Mr. Sulu.”

The helmsman switched back to the line connecting him to Engineering.  “Engage on my mark,” he said, placing his hands carefully over his controls. 

“Aye, sir.”

“Engage!”

At first it felt like a completely normal increase of speed.

“Warp six,” Chekov announced.

…But the sensation continued… and continued…

“Warp nine,” the navigator read.

The only thing Sulu could compare it to were the times that they had tried slingshotting around the sun.  He felt stretched… elongated… like space pulling at the coattails of time…

“Warp twelve,” the Russian informed him.

The ship was moving faster than his conscious mind could work now.  He let his brain slip carefully out of gear, trusting himself to make the right decisions by instinct rather than by reason.

“Warp…. Speed is off the dials now.”  Chekov’s voice was simultaneously far away and intimately close.

Del was wrong.  They were not like a cannonball at all. They were a great silver bird.  Muscles. Flesh. Feathers. Blood cells. Each of them a part of her being.  A unity gliding through planes of being… A silver hawk sailing through the endless night…

The featureless sparkle of verilium-obsitrate smeared and streaked into multi-colored strands… which finally resolved itself into stars…

“Warp four…” Chekov’s voice was saying as the galaxy resolved itself into its normal appearance and the engines moaned down to a halt.  “Warp three… Warp two…”

“Shee-it!” Noel DelMonde swore over the intercom.

** *** **
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 18, 2014, 07:05:32 PM
So, here's the excerpt -- Spock has been temporarily knocked unconscious and Sulu is in command.  They've taken the ship into a cloud of material that baffles sensors to the point that it results in temporary invisibility for the ship.

Sounds to me Spock wasn't too unwilling to get 'knocked out' for a while? ;cute
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 18, 2014, 07:37:53 PM
One of the politest terms the crew has for Spock in this series of stories is "Captain Bastard."
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 18, 2014, 08:39:48 PM
One of the politest terms the crew has for Spock in this series of stories is "Captain Bastard."

But... that indicates emotional expression in Spock's case! :o
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 18, 2014, 08:49:33 PM
Spock has pretty much turned his emotions off in this story, at least as far as anyone else can tell. Underneath it all, he's worried and desperate to find Kirk, but he can't let anyone know that. The rest of the crew thinks Kirk is dead, and Spock's only evidence that he's still alive is a telepathic impression he got from Kirk.

It's part of the "devil's bargain" he made with Starfleet, and the only way he can fulfill his part of that is to keep his wife and friends and the rest of the crew at arm's length (farther, in most cases). So he behaves with strict logic, expresses no outward emotion (except occasional annoyance when his orders are questioned), and is in general much colder than he ever was before.

It's his treatment of Ruth, Jilla, and Sulu that earned him the nickname "Captain Bastard."
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 18, 2014, 09:56:19 PM
Del's and empath/telepath? Or can Sulu somehow 'hear' him?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 18, 2014, 10:51:17 PM
They both got superpowers.  Ev'rybody in Valjiir but Kirk and Chekov got superpowers.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 18, 2014, 11:05:07 PM
Plus, Sulu and Del were lovers during their Clave years, so they have a stronger empathic connection.

(The Valjiir version of Sulu is bisexual)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 19, 2014, 12:08:22 AM
... and no one's going to actually say anything about the excerpt...

Okay.  Won't bother doing this again...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 19, 2014, 12:10:55 AM
Somebody's had a bad day.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 19, 2014, 01:14:28 AM
... and no one's going to actually say anything about the excerpt...

Okay.  Won't bother doing this again...
Thank you for posting the excerpt. Thank you for posting your wonderful-as-usual artwork. :)

But I prefer to read the stories on the website. I have a good idea of where this excerpt fits in with the overall story, but I need to refresh my memory.

And your excerpt did generate discussion of the characters and plotline. "Shadow Captain" isn't a simple story to follow if the reader wants the full experience beyond just the bare plot. I enjoy the complexity, so keep writing! (please and thank you :D)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 20, 2014, 06:43:31 PM
Yes - bad day. Sorry.

Will let you know when we finish this story.

Here's a new picture from "Chain Reaction"
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 24, 2014, 11:04:35 PM
New pictures up at the site for "Queen's Necklace" and "Kiss the Cook"

http://www.valjiir.us/valjiir.html (http://www.valjiir.us/valjiir.html)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 25, 2014, 03:05:59 AM
Am I right in assuming its not Kirk at the head of thr conference table?
In any case, the 'debate' looks alot less heated then the previous conference scene you showed us. ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 25, 2014, 03:11:02 AM
Valjiir began with Kirk off in Klingon jail being mind-shifted and dumped in the past, but I think that IS Kirk.  -They did rescue him eventually.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 25, 2014, 03:36:08 AM
That's Kirk.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 25, 2014, 06:53:31 PM
Yeah, it's Kirk.  This is from a story before he's abducted.  His head looks a little long in this one...

Here's a different picture from the same story showing an even more contentious meeting in the office of the ship's psychologist, Dr. Han.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 25, 2014, 08:11:46 PM
What department has its crew wearing greenish tunics in Star Trek lore?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 25, 2014, 08:26:20 PM
The yellow uniforms were supposed to be green all along, you know - they looked yellow on TV.  That's why Kirk's secondary wrap-around tunic was green.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 26, 2014, 04:38:45 PM
Well, over thirty years since I watched the first Star Trek episodes, and still I learn something new.
OTOH, my parents still had a B&W TV back then. ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on September 26, 2014, 06:29:35 PM
Some people have had... interesting... reactions seeing it in color for the first time. My neighbor, who had a black and white TV, saw a little scene at my place where it was the episode about Elaan of Troyius (who had to marry the Troyan prince and didn't want to). The neighbor said, "No wonder she doesn't want to marry him, he's blue!"
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on September 26, 2014, 06:33:25 PM
Yeah. ;lol
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on September 30, 2014, 06:34:33 PM
More new pictures up on the site for "Queen's Necklace"
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on October 01, 2014, 06:05:05 PM
Set phasers to stun(ned)! 8)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on October 02, 2014, 12:09:32 AM
That's about the most coppery I've ever seen Jilla's hair. It's pretty.  :)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on October 02, 2014, 01:06:59 AM
Since this was a fantasy version of Jilla, I felt free to play with her hair color a little.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on March 04, 2015, 09:47:23 PM
Have been sick recently -- but here's an illustration I've been working on for a story titled "Redshirts" in which an engineer and a security guard remarkably make it through an entire adventure without dying...

Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 05, 2015, 12:37:38 AM
Very nice! :)

But since those two look like Jeremy and Del, I don't expect either of them to die.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2015, 02:21:36 AM
I expect that that is Jeremy and Del, now that you mention it.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on March 05, 2015, 02:33:19 AM
It is indeed Jer and our Del in a very lonely corridor on a mining station.

I've been experimenting with a technique called "color grading" that allows you to manipulate the color range of an image in certain ways.  In this one, I was working on bringing out a cold, metallic, cyan cast to the machinery while preserving the warm tones of their skin and uniforms -- hopefully to make them look a little more isolated in the uninviting setting of this story.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on March 05, 2015, 02:11:06 PM
Here's a different illustration from the same story...

Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 05, 2015, 02:33:53 PM
They certainly don't fit in with the scene in their bright and shiny uniforms. Also, they're both red shirts... :o
(not both expendable I hope)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 05, 2015, 02:42:11 PM
Nope, neither character is expendable. They've been part of the Valjiir storyline since they were children, and they have  very strong ties to several of the main characters, especially Sulu and Ruth.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 05, 2015, 02:46:58 PM
Ah yes. Wasn't one of them a former love interest of Ruth?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2015, 03:06:12 PM
Everyone's a former love interest of everyone else.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 05, 2015, 03:15:34 PM
 ;lol ;eek
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2015, 03:21:37 PM
Specifically, Del and Ruth used to be a thing.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 05, 2015, 03:32:41 PM
Jeremy and Sulu were lovers.
Jeremy and Del were lovers.
Sulu and Del were lovers.
Del and Ruth were lovers.
Sulu and Ruth were lovers.

Jeremy and Ruth were not lovers (because Jeremy is gay, not bisexual, and Ruth is straight).

Sulu and Jilla are married. Jilla was previously married to Selar. Jilla and Spock had a brief relationship during Jilla's pon farr.

Spock and Ruth are married.

There have been other relationships among the characters (ie. Ruth had a brief relationship with Kirk before her marriage to Spock) but that's the main list of past and present relationships.


Back in the '80s, I was at a convention in Calgary, and someone had left a flyer for In a Different Reality on the freebie table (IADR is the 'zine where I first started reading the Valjiir stories 30 years ago), and a woman picked it up and started fuming in anger. The flyer was for the issue in which Spock and Ruth got married (#16), and she went on a rant that No Way should Spock marry Ruth, or anyone else. It didn't happen on TV, so she figured it shouldn't happen in fanfic. No amount of my explaining that it was a story and not meant to take away from the TV series or movies would calm her down. So I just took a flyer and left her to mutter about it.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 05, 2015, 04:05:06 PM
The forum (or, at least, I) need a dizzy smilie. :scratch:
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2015, 04:10:37 PM
???
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on March 05, 2015, 04:36:20 PM
They certainly don't fit in with the scene in their bright and shiny uniforms. Also, they're both red shirts... :o
(not both expendable I hope)

Yes, I was hoping to use color in this image to make them seem uncomfortably out of place.  In this story, the residents of this run-down mining colony are fairly hostile towards the Star Fleet personnel sent to make repairs to their facility.  At this early point in the story, Jer is getting the strong impression that something suspicious is going on, but he's not sure what that might be.  That's the feeling I was trying to convey in this story
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 05, 2015, 06:23:59 PM
The forum (or, at least, I) need a dizzy smilie. :scratch:
That's a perfectly straightforward list I posted (should have mentioned that Jilla and Selar were married before Jilla went to Starfleet Academy, and her brief time with Spock happened after she was assigned to the Enterprise, and before her marriage to Sulu and Spock's marriage to Ruth). The reason Jilla joined Starfleet in the first place is because Selar died.

See? It's all quite easy to follow.  :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 05, 2015, 07:43:15 PM
See? It's all quite easy to follow.  :D

;lol ;b;

I'm not that well-versed in social interactions. ;cute

At this early point in the story, Jer is getting the strong impression that something suspicious is going on, but he's not sure what that might be.  That's the feeling I was trying to convey in this story

My impression (with the look of the miner in the background on one of the pics you posted) was more of just not fitting in the local culture.

???

I call it a "close, but no cigar" smilie.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on March 05, 2015, 08:25:51 PM
See? It's all quite easy to follow.  :D

 ;lol ;b;

I'm not that well-versed in social interactions. ;cute
Well, I've been reading these stories (and re-reading and re-reading) since the mid-'80s when I first heard of them and found them worth the insane exchange rate back then between the US and Canadian dollars, when I'd get IADR via mail order. It used to freak my grandmother out when she saw I was getting packages from Intergalactic Underground Press (she worried that I'd get in trouble with the RCMP, since around that time there was a huge thing about them opening peoples' mail if they thought there was anything suspicious about it).
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on March 05, 2015, 09:09:03 PM
 :)  I think the various Valjiir romances would make into an exciting venn diagram...

The forum (or, at least, I) need a dizzy smilie. :scratch:
That's a perfectly straightforward list I posted (should have mentioned that Jilla and Selar were married before Jilla went to Starfleet Academy, and her brief time with Spock happened after she was assigned to the Enterprise, and before her marriage to Sulu and Spock's marriage to Ruth). The reason Jilla joined Starfleet in the first place is because Selar died.

See? It's all quite easy to follow.  :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 05, 2015, 09:12:37 PM
Venn diagram? Be my guest. :D
But the center part might be overcrowded. ;lol
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 06, 2015, 10:41:22 PM
Flux - Valjiir is dirty, and just not for you.  Stop reading this thread and check out Mylochka's Art tutorial thread.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on March 07, 2015, 07:54:42 AM
Perhaps the forum needs a 'NSFC' - Not Safe For Class - icon? Like those we can pin at a thread (discussion, movies,...)? ;cute
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on April 02, 2015, 07:09:29 PM
Well, these aren't the most exciting pictures in the history of ever, but I thought I'd share.  I converted a couple models from 3ds to Poser format.  This gives me much more detailed Engineering, Corridor, and Auxiliary Control sets.  Soon to be appearing in a story illustration near you!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on April 02, 2015, 08:50:36 PM
 ;b;

Thank you for posting these - I don't always express appreciation right away, but I do enjoy your work. :) And the link to the Valjiir site is still in my sig at TrekBBS, so maybe some of the people there have visited? I hope so.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on April 02, 2015, 08:59:28 PM
Thanks!  :D You've added some needed sunshine to my day  :D

Here's another picture testing a new turbo lift set.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on April 02, 2015, 10:28:43 PM
Thanks!  :D You've added some needed sunshine to my day  :D

Temperatures in your area seem on the rise though. 8)
Does this character always look down/sidewards? Bit sneaky-looking if you ask me. ;cute
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on April 02, 2015, 11:00:45 PM
She does look like she's considering some deeply-laid plans, doesn't she? 

Here's Spock in the Sickbay Med Lab set I cobbled together.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on April 02, 2015, 11:51:32 PM

Does this character always look down/sidewards? Bit sneaky-looking if you ask me. ;cute
Depending on which story you're talking about, Ruth and Del have often been sneaky.  :D

For the right reasons, of course.  ;)
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on April 03, 2015, 07:21:55 AM
Of course. ;cute
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on April 03, 2015, 08:05:19 AM
Hey, saving people sometimes does require sneakiness. And it's not like anyone else was using that experimental shuttlecraft (the story in which Ruth, Jilla, and McCoy broke Spock out of the psychiatric hospital to cure him of his drug addiction).
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on April 03, 2015, 05:33:02 PM
.. And coincidentally, that's the story ("Sweet Fire") that I've just started working on illustrations for.  Kismet!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Geo on April 03, 2015, 06:38:11 PM
Oooh. Exhaust trails! :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on April 03, 2015, 08:00:27 PM
Yeah... Not accurate, but in a still image, the trails make a vehicle look like its moving.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on April 03, 2015, 08:05:02 PM
Hey, it is a warp shuttle, after all! (just had a silly thought about adding a "Zoom!" caption to the picture...)  :D
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on April 04, 2015, 03:40:41 PM
Well, that would definitely indicate movement...  ;lol

When I'm working on illustrations, there are always a certain number of renders that I end up not using.  I thought it might be interesting to post some of the "alternate angle" pictures here.  In this one, poor Spock is in the early stages of the cordrizone addiction inflicted upon him by the evil alien who has taken control of Captain Kirk.  He's in the bathroom of his cabin splashing... or about to splash... water on his face and wondering why his life is suddenly reeling wildly out of control.

This illustration posed several challenges.  First, since we never actually see a bathroom in the series, I had to come up with a design.  Next, I needed a mirror prop to reflect Spock's distraught image.  The prop I used reflects nicely in the final render.  However, the reflection does not show up in the image previews.  Therefore I had to guess at the correct angle.  In this shot, I guessed wrong.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on June 25, 2015, 05:07:24 PM
Have been working on more illustrations for the story "Sweet Fire."  The first part of this story takes place on the Enterprise.  I was looking forward to doing it because I assumed I wouldn't have to build any new sets... However, I've ended up replacing, rebuilding, or re-lighting almost every location I've used... I'm particularly happy with the new corridor set I downloaded and adapted for use with Poser and the new sickbay diagnostic room set I "frankensteined" together out of pieces from other sets.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 22, 2015, 02:14:15 AM
MOAR!
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on July 22, 2015, 11:19:50 PM
Have been working on some moar... I mean, more "Sweet Fire" illos lately
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Dio on July 23, 2015, 02:28:28 AM
Have been working on more illustrations for the story "Sweet Fire."  The first part of this story takes place on the Enterprise.  I was looking forward to doing it because I assumed I wouldn't have to build any new sets... However, I've ended up replacing, rebuilding, or re-lighting almost every location I've used... I'm particularly happy with the new corridor set I downloaded and adapted for use with Poser and the new sickbay diagnostic room set I "frankensteined" together out of pieces from other sets.
The illustrations are illuminating  ;b;.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 30, 2015, 07:34:43 PM
I just got word yesterday that Cher has posted several new things on the Valjiir site.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on July 30, 2015, 11:11:55 PM
Yes.  There's a new vignette from me and an alternate universe story.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on July 31, 2015, 01:12:02 PM
I'm on part 3 of "A Little Bitty Bit of Treachery."

I am reminded all over again why Jilla is not my favorite character...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 04, 2015, 05:44:53 PM
Okay, I've finished reading the Noel/Calaya vignette. Is there another story with the character who died that I missed?  ???


As for the 'Treachery' story, the link to Part 8 leads to a "404 Not Found" message. Is Part 8 still coming, or is there a technical glitch on the website?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 07, 2015, 04:14:49 PM
There's not another story about that character... at least not yet, any way... ;)

Uhm... yeah... Part 8 is missing.  I'll say something to Cher.

Been working on more illustrations for "Sweet Fire."  Had some problems getting the "Chuztpah" texture for the Galileo shuttle to work correctly...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 07, 2015, 04:17:04 PM
I'm on part 3 of "A Little Bitty Bit of Treachery."

I am reminded all over again why Jilla is not my favorite character...

Jilla goes pretty intensely "Ice Queen" in that part, doesn't she?
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 07, 2015, 07:04:11 PM
I found Jilla likeable in the earlier stories, but yeah, there are times during the Shadow Captain arc that make her seem far icier than mere frozen H2O. I can't stand people like that in RL, so when Jilla puts on these judgmental attitudes, I don't find her likeable at all.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 07, 2015, 08:14:06 PM
At least she does get over it... unlike some people in RL...

I don't usually do "ship" pictures, but here's one from "Treachery."  The Enterprise is pursued through a space anomaly by a couple of Klingon vessels. 
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 08, 2015, 02:40:58 PM
Page 8 of Treachery should work now.

Here's another battle scene from that story...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 08, 2015, 02:45:49 PM
Three bits of shipporn in a row!  ;b;

They'd look more realistic if you turned down the color saturation on the models 30% or more...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 08, 2015, 09:28:05 PM
...Now mind you, these are exactly right, IMAO, for the Poser art-based version of the cartoon you've wanted to do for a very long time.  I mean, that really nails the sort of look you ought to shoot for for that...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 08, 2015, 09:38:05 PM
The Poser re-do of Star Trek Animated would totally, totally rock.... unless an artist who sucks does it...

The first render I did of these ships went too blue... too boring.  So I switched to a copper colored lighting scheme.  It made the Klingon ships a little green-ish, but they don't fade into the background. 

I don't seem to have saved any of these too blue renders of the Enterprise and the Klingon ships, but here's a before and after of one with the shuttlecraft that I had to struggle with to keep it from being just varying shades of blue...
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 08, 2015, 10:24:25 PM
Okay, I've finished reading Treachery. Interesting alt-universe take on it, but then to me even the regular online stories are different from the ones I read in In a Different Reality.

I do have to ask this, however: Was this necessary:
Quote
THE SAD, TERRIBLE EVERYONE-GO-SLIT-THEIR-WRISTS END
?

It's a sad fact that some people do suffer from depression, and there may be other reasons why they might have "triggers" to do with suicide. Personally I find this a disturbing, unnecessarily flippant way to say "The end."
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Mylochka on August 09, 2015, 02:06:35 AM
I'm sorry you found that tag line disturbing. As a person who suffers from PTSD, I know triggering incidents can be quite unpleasant. I'm sure the line was just meant as an ironic recognition of how downbeat the ending was.

And yes, the online versions are re-written --sometimes quite extensively-- from the versions that appeared in print. I think some of these revisions are due to the break up of the writing partnership of the original authors and others are due to Cher's evolving perceptions of the characters.

Although Cher and I split the writing of the scenes for this story, the plot of this alternate version was almost entirely my creation.  I write a lot of the material that features Noel DelMonde now (although not all of it by any means) and was interested in how some of the "Shadow Captain" stories would turn out if he was playing a more active role.  I liked our action scenes and how some of the character bits turned out -- like the conversation between Spock and Jade Han when he tells her about the breakup of marriage or the exchange between DelMonde and McCoy when Ruth is brought back from the Klingon ship.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Valka on August 09, 2015, 02:26:15 AM
I'm not complaining about the rewritten stories at all - just making the point that for me, some of them have 3 different versions! I know that the online material is what the authors now consider to be canon, and I'm very glad to see so much more.

The only thing that bothered me was, as you say, the tag line. I've got a link to the Valjiir stories in my sig at TrekBBS, and I know that there are a few people there who have expressed suicidal thoughts at times. I myself am on anti-depressants, so these are the reasons why I found it disturbing.
Title: Re: Valjiir
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 09, 2015, 02:52:07 AM
Mylochka has neither confirmed or denied -she's pretty classy for the 'Yoko' of Valjiir- my assumption that it was Cher's line, but for what it's worth, Cher gets beaten up pretty brutally by Mr. Blue herself from time-to-time, and an irreverent sense of humor is one of the ways she compensates.