Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Council Room => Topic started by: Yitzi on November 15, 2012, 10:53:54 PM

Title: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Yitzi on November 15, 2012, 10:53:54 PM
Right now, this is a relatively small forum, and as such works fairly well without official rules.  But if we grow as much as we hope, that may not last, so in the interests of avoiding the sort of problems that plague larger forums when we become a larger forum, we should have a well-designed set of rules.  As such, Buster's Uncle said the following to me:

Come to think of it, Yitzi, I have a job for you, you being so impressively detail-oriented - start a thread In Council Room, and organize citizen participation in making up the forum rules.  Quote this post.  You, if you accept this commision, are hereby appointed Chairman of the Commitee of the Everyone Interested for Rules. 

Some guidelines:

Forums are never democracies, and this one is no different - we live and die on member happiness, but the admins reserve all right to accept or regect proposed rules.

If the admins accept a rule, we consider ourselves bound by it.

We reserve the right to think of more guidelines as they occur to us, and participate in discussion like anyone else.

We may not formalize this until we feel like it's needed.

The management has as much rights as anyone else.  Please try to make it easier for the managment to manage, not harder.

Let's try harder than usual to observe topic discipline during this discussion.

The ultimate goal of all rules is the health of the forum and the happiness of the members.  We're not banning every little thing someone wants banned, unless the whole community is best served by banning it.




That's all I got for now - look at it as a live microcosmic participatory experiment in culture and government.

As he said, everybody is invited to make suggestions and comments, but I'll start it off with some ideas I have (when I feel they're necessary, explanations are in square brackets):
1. Personal attacks in the context of debating are absolutely prohibited.  If it is absolutely necessary to call into question someone's personal qualifications (such as because they invoked their personal expertise to support their point), or to provide constructive criticism regarding their posting style, it should be done as politely as you can manage.  [We want to keep things civil, even when discussions get heated in off-topic as they no doubt will eventually.  I don't think it will be too much of an imposition to restrict friendly teasing to non-debate contexts.]
2. When debating, any person's explicit statements about their own position should not be contradicted.  If they seem to be holding the position that they explicitly deny, politely ask for a clarification.  [It's a lot easier to follow rule #1 when not provoked, and there's very little that is more provocative than being told that your position is something you explicitly deny.)
3. While friendly teasing is permitted outside the context of debating, if the object of the teasing requests that the teasing stop, that request is to be followed.
4. No teasing may include believable claims of real-life actions (e.g. claiming to have engaged in desecration of something valued by the other person).  [Once real-life gets involved, it's very easy for people to get seriously distressed.  Normal teasing doesn't involve such claims anyway, making it pretty much exclusively the domain of the worst sort of troll.]
5. While some drift of topics is expected and allowed, any artificial transition of a thread to an unrelated controversial matter will be treated as trolling and be dealt with harshly.  (If it cannot be precisely determined who performed the transition or there was no single point of transition, it can be presumed to be a natural transition.)
6. While some controversy is expected, anybody who exclusively or near-exclusively raises controversy about certain issues may, at the discretion of the admins and any moderators they appoint, be warned, and if they continue such behavior may be banned.

So, anybody have any comments on those, or other suggestions for rules?
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 15, 2012, 11:02:32 PM
I think you've made a good start.  ;b;  I believe I'm going to have some specific remarks about your six proposals, but I want to think about them a little first.  I have quibbles about some details, but all are conceptually sound.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 16, 2012, 04:53:45 AM
I'll start it off with some ideas I have (when I feel they're necessary, explanations are in square brackets):
1. Personal attacks in the context of debating are absolutely prohibited.  If it is absolutely necessary to call into question someone's personal qualifications (such as because they invoked their personal expertise to support their point), or to provide constructive criticism regarding their posting style, it should be done as politely as you can manage.  [We want to keep things civil, even when discussions get heated in off-topic as they no doubt will eventually.  I don't think it will be too much of an imposition to restrict friendly teasing to non-debate contexts.]
I'm not sure I agree with that last.

I think the spirit is right, but you leave the admins little wiggle room for using good judgment, here, and this rule fails to recognize that my relationship with Kilkakon is different than my relationship with Uno, and different yet than how I ought to behave toward Newbx, a total stranger.  In the last case, the above is absolutely correct.  In Kilkakon’s case, he’d wonder who was posting as me if I went very long without making a joke about no pants, and what the serious person had done with the real me.

Again the spirit is okay, but the phrasing is mighty absolute.


2. When debating, any person's explicit statements about their own position should not be contradicted.  If they seem to be holding the position that they explicitly deny, politely ask for a clarification.  [It's a lot easier to follow rule #1 when not provoked, and there's very little that is more provocative than being told that your position is something you explicitly deny.)
While true, is this specific rule necessary? Perhaps instead, we ought to make the rule “Don’t be rude” and create/append an essay on what’s generally held to be rude posting/arguing behavior.  Thoughts?


3. While friendly teasing is permitted outside the context of debating, if the object of the teasing requests that the teasing stop, that request is to be followed.
I’m provisionally inclined to sign off on this without quibble.  (Well, this is me, so I’ll probably think of something, but haven’t thus far.)


4. No teasing may include believable claims of real-life actions (e.g. claiming to have engaged in desecration of something valued by the other person).  [Once real-life gets involved, it's very easy for people to get seriously distressed.  Normal teasing doesn't involve such claims anyway, making it pretty much exclusively the domain of the worst sort of troll.]
I dunno.  This is very specific again.  Perhaps you can tell me more about what you’ve witnessed to want this one.


5. While some drift of topics is expected and allowed, any artificial transition of a thread to an unrelated controversial matter will be treated as trolling and be dealt with harshly.  (If it cannot be precisely determined who performed the transition or there was no single point of transition, it can be presumed to be a natural transition.)
We don’t deal with much of anything real people do harshly.   This is an anti-spam rule, yes?  Why not just say No spam?  (Of course then we have to define spam, which is not an easy thing to do, given that it’s about six different things, all of them insults, but forum people don’t seem to have an actual definition.)


6. While some controversy is expected, anybody who exclusively or near-exclusively raises controversy about certain issues may, at the discretion of the admins and any moderators they appoint, be warned, and if they continue such behavior may be banned.
How about “No troublemakers.  If you’re griefing someone, or everyone, acting from apparent malice and lowering the general happiness of the members, you’re not welcome at AC2, and will be treated accordingly by the management.”

Somewhere in between our drafts, I think.


So, anybody have any comments on those, or other suggestions for rules?
It’s good that you recognize the potential of a forum’s OTf as the great wellspring of trouble.  I love me a good, spirited, OT, but I’d be a fool not to recognize that. ;b;


I should repeat what rules I’ve remember articulating previously in other places:

Private communications are to remain private.  If you have access to a hidden forum, don’t you go carrying tales.  That causes trouble like nobody’s business, and will be dealt  with.  Same goes for PMs.  People say things in private that they wouldn’t in public.  This is not an absolute information blackout, but it is an admonition that if you misjudge what private information is safe to relate to outside parties and cause trouble/bad feelings/damaged reputations, you’ll have violated the trust extended to you, and risk being officially designated a troublemaker.

Use of  “spam” as an insult towards other’s posting is frowned upon.  We are not bound by every little tradition from the dawn of the internet, and nobody likes a forum Nazi, so don’t be trying to impose rules we don’t have here.  The lowest penalty for careless use of the word spam is the enmity of one of the admins - keep it up, and it goes up from there.

Newb-bashing is a hanging offense here.

[And a new one, but it's an old traditional]This is not a museum.  How strictly we need to adhere to topic discipline is largely at the discretion of the member who started the thread.  The OP, however, is asked to to be tolerant of the natural flow of conversation.  However, as can easily happen in a silly OT thread, no one has the right to buzkill a thread they don't think is funny.  Get out when you're asked to, and stay out unless you can play along with the joke - or else.  Naturally, the standard of behavior in this is lower for topic discipline in Recreation Commons than in an on-topic subforum, and higher in an issues thread than a joke thread - but just avoid jokes you don't think are funny (bumping them to complain is often counterproductive, too).  Be considerate and tolerant, and you should be fine.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Yitzi on November 16, 2012, 12:28:09 PM
I'm not sure I agree with that last.

I think the spirit is right, but you leave the admins little wiggle room for using good judgment, here, and this rule fails to recognize that my relationship with Kilkakon is different than my relationship with Uno, and different yet than how I ought to behave toward Newbx, a total stranger.  In the last case, the above is absolutely correct.  In Kilkakon’s case, he’d wonder who was posting as me if I went very long without making a joke about no pants, and what the serious person had done with the real me.

Again the spirit is okay, but the phrasing is mighty absolute.

Any ideas how to change it?  (Also, most discussions aren't really debates, so jokes could happen there.  People usually don't joke in serious debates anyway; I suspect most of the time when you made such jokes it wasn't when debating with Kilkakon.)

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While true, is this specific rule necessary? Perhaps instead, we ought to make the rule “Don’t be rude” and create/append an essay on what’s generally held to be rude posting/arguing behavior.  Thoughts?

I just know that I personally have been provoked into borderline flaming by someone claiming I hold a position right after I explicitly denied holding that position.  While including it under "don't be rude" might work, I feel that some sorts of extreme rudeness could use special mention.
Perhaps more importantly, that rule contains in it something beyond just "don't be rude": It says to ask about apparent contradictions.  Sometimes, someone will hold a complex position and another person will fail to understand its subtleties; if the latter simply says "you hold X, therefore you hold Y" after the former explicitly denies holding Y, you run into something that will almost inevitably get out of hand (since if the latter persists, there really isn't any polite way for the former to deal with it.)  So while it's somewhat of a specific case, it will be very necessary if the situation comes up.

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I dunno.  This is very specific again.  Perhaps you can tell me more about what you’ve witnessed to want this one.

On another forum, I was engaged in a religious debate with another poster (who's notorious as a troll), and he decided to claim (presumably purely to provoke me, as I can see no other reason; IIRC I was actually trying to be fairly understanding of his position in that debate) that he wrote God's name on a piece of paper and used it to wipe his dog's rear end.  I don't think I rose to the provocation, but that's the sort of trolling that can easily lead to extremely bad places extremely fast.

We don’t deal with much of anything real people do harshly.   This is an anti-spam rule, yes?  Why not just say No spam?

Because it's not really spam.  Spamming is switching to an unrelated topic to try to sell something or so on; this is switching to an unrelated topic to get a rise out of people.  That's trolling.  A "no trolling, as defined by the admins/moderators" rule might work, though that depends heavily on having enough admins/moderators while at the same time having only admins/moderators that won't abuse an open-ended power to silence those who disagree with them.

How about “No troublemakers.  If you’re griefing someone, or everyone, acting from apparent malice and lowering the general happiness of the members, you’re not welcome at AC2, and will be treated accordingly by the management.”

Again, that leaves so much up to the management that it makes it dangerous to expand the management (as will be necessary to a larger board).  Personally, I prefer somewhat more clearly defined rules, trading simplicity for security.

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Private communications are to remain private.  If you have access to a hidden forum, don’t you go carrying tales.  That causes trouble like nobody’s business, and will be dealt  with.  Same goes for PMs.  People say things in private that they wouldn’t in public.  This is not an absolute information blackout, but it is an admonition that if you misjudge what private information is safe to relate to outside parties and cause trouble/bad feelings/damaged reputations, you’ll have violated the trust extended to you, and risk being officially designated a troublemaker.

Sounds good.

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Use of  “spam” as an insult towards other’s posting is frowned upon.  We are not bound by every little tradition from the dawn of the internet, and nobody likes a forum Nazi, so don’t be trying to impose rules we don’t have here.  The lowest penalty for careless use of the word spam is the enmity of one of the admins - keep it up, and it goes up from there.

On the other hand, some things really are spam.

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[And a new one, but it's an old traditional]This is not a museum.  How strictly we need to adhere to topic discipline is largely at the discretion of the member who started the thread.  The OP, however, is asked to to be tolerant of the natural flow of conversation.  However, as can easily happen in a silly OT thread, no one has the right to buzkill a thread they don't think is funny.  Get out when you're asked to, and stay out unless you can play along with the joke - or else.  Naturally, the standard of behavior in this is lower for topic discipline in Recreation Commons than in an on-topic subforum, and higher in an issues thread than a joke thread - but just avoid jokes you don't think are funny (bumping them to complain is often counterproductive, too).  Be considerate and tolerant, and you should be fine.

Sounds good.  Although there are certain types of jokes that probably need to be brought to the attention of management to determine if they were mean-spirited.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: t_ras on November 16, 2012, 08:09:18 PM
First of all I would say after reading the proposed rules and BUs answers I think may be we should post a set of strict rules+ a set of recomendations (which could be more specific). This is how life works. You have laws that were writen, many of them,  in general terms and then you go to a lawyer to consult for specific cases acording to the loyers expirience.

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Personal attacks in the context of debating are absolutely prohibited.  If it is absolutely necessary to call into question someone's personal qualifications (such as because they invoked their personal expertise to support their point), or to provide constructive criticism regarding their posting style, it should be done as politely as you can manage.  [We want to keep things civil, even when discussions get heated in off-topic as they no doubt will eventually.  I don't think it will be too much of an imposition to restrict friendly teasing to non-debate contexts.]
I'm not sure I agree with that last.

I think the spirit is right, but you leave the admins little wiggle room for using good judgment, here, and this rule fails to recognize that my relationship with Kilkakon is different than my relationship with Uno, and different yet than how I ought to behave toward Newbx, a total stranger.  In the last case, the above is absolutely correct.  In Kilkakon’s case, he’d wonder who was posting as me if I went very long without making a joke about no pants, and what the serious person had done with the real me.

Again the spirit is okay, but the phrasing is mighty absolute.

I tend to think that the rule as wrote by Yitzi leaves enough room. As moderator I can decide what was constructive critisizm and what was an insult in the context of what I see are the relationshipd between the posters. That said, I'm a bad phraser, so maybe it could be better phrased and I dont recognize it.

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When debating, any person's explicit statements about their own position should not be contradicted.  If they seem to be holding the position that they explicitly deny, politely ask for a clarification.  [It's a lot easier to follow rule #1 when not provoked, and there's very little that is more provocative than being told that your position is something you explicitly deny.)

I agree with BU. It is true, but it is too specific to be writen.

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While friendly teasing is permitted outside the context of debating, if the object of the teasing requests that the teasing stop, that request is to be followed.

I think it goes without saying, but as a rule it is OK (maybe we should just have a summery rule "Dont be rude").

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No teasing may include believable claims of real-life actions (e.g. claiming to have engaged in desecration of something valued by the other person).  [Once real-life gets involved, it's very easy for people to get seriously distressed.  Normal teasing doesn't involve such claims anyway, making it pretty much exclusively the domain of the worst sort of troll.]

I think the rule is OK but shuld be rephrased. Any way it is a rule agains total trolls, I dont think some one else would do such a thing.

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While some drift of topics is expected and allowed, any artificial transition of a thread to an unrelated controversial matter will be treated as trolling and be dealt with harshly.  (If it cannot be precisely determined who performed the transition or there was no single point of transition, it can be presumed to be a natural transition.)

Don't know about it.  I REALLY dont like threads going out of toppic, but maybe it should just be a recomendation.

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While some controversy is expected, anybody who exclusively or near-exclusively raises controversy about certain issues may, at the discretion of the admins and any moderators they appoint, be warned, and if they continue such behavior may be banned.
How about “No troublemakers.  If you’re griefing someone, or everyone, acting from apparent malice and lowering the general happiness of the members, you’re not welcome at AC2, and will be treated accordingly by the management.”

Somewhere in between our drafts, I think.

I think I like the way Yitzi phrased it more like a rule. Sounds more like a lawyer ;)

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Private communications are to remain private.  If you have access to a hidden forum, don’t you go carrying tales.  That causes trouble like nobody’s business, and will be dealt  with.  Same goes for PMs.  People say things in private that they wouldn’t in public.  This is not an absolute information blackout, but it is an admonition that if you misjudge what private information is safe to relate to outside parties and cause trouble/bad feelings/damaged reputations, you’ll have violated the trust extended to you, and risk being officially designated a troublemaker.

This is important.

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Use of  “spam” as an insult towards other’s posting is frowned upon.  We are not bound by every little tradition from the dawn of the internet, and nobody likes a forum Nazi, so don’t be trying to impose rules we don’t have here.  The lowest penalty for careless use of the word spam is the enmity of one of the admins - keep it up, and it goes up from there.

I think it shuld be more of a recomandation.

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Newb-bashing is a hanging offense here.

This too is important.

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How strictly we need to adhere to topic discipline is largely at the discretion of the member who started the thread.

This is true, but only to such extend. Some topics may be too problematic (trolling) them selvs as topics. Again in this case, some one raising such a trolling thread would only be a total troll, so this is a rare case. The problem is not to ban the troll in this case, but not to let him take more people down with him.
Imagine a Thread "See what XXX  wrote" with quting of a specific user in the starting post. User AAA sees the post and thinks it ia just a friandly lough without thinking of it or having bad intencions. So think the next 4 posters. Then XXX sees the thread and hates all of them (even if AAA was sure the troll that started it had a good anough relationship with XXX to post it). Had the thread been deleted from start AAA and XXX would still be friends. So even if I'm speaking here about extreem cases, as moderator, I steel would like to keep the right to decide that such thread is trolling.

One additional rule:
"Ridiculing non-native english spekers is prohivited". I had suffered from it and I've seen others get it too. And we have many non-native speakers here. Im corrected many times and even take a joke on me too, which is Ok since I lough too, but there is a difference between a little joke about ones english and calling names.

Last - Thanks to Yitzi for the rules!
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 16, 2012, 08:24:59 PM
I'm too sick today to want to get into any posts that take work and careful thinking, but that's not a bad idea about insisting on courtesy towards English as a Second Language posters.  This place is international, and some patience is called for essential.

---

On a general note, if it's understood that the staff usually has some latitude/discretion in enforcing rules, exact phrasing becomes less important.  Sometimes, moderation decisions can wait long enough for the staff to talk them over, so that takes some pressure off.  Where moderators are quick to jump in and say "This seems to be going to a bad place - let's cool off." and members will listen, rules usually not need come into it...
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 16, 2012, 09:10:19 PM
You notice that all of us have proposed rules based on our own bed past experiences at other forums?  I don't know what to make of that.

I still wonder if a lot of this shouldn't be covered by simple "No trolling" and "No spamming" rules, with extensive commentary appended - sort of a Talmud to the actual rules' Torah...
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Unorthodox on November 16, 2012, 10:37:11 PM
I would keep the lot of it to a couple simple rules:

No personal attacks. 

NO caveats about it's ok here, but not here, but only if you're only teasing.  I could list the reasons, but suffice it to say the more exceptions you make the more you beg for the random bottom feeder to push the limits.  Just no.  And banhammer anyone that don't like it to the stoneage. 
 
No Trolling.

Not all trolling involves personal attacks. 

No Spamming.

Depending on ownership stances on piracy, maybe a rule that we do not promote illegal activities, and maybe something about no hot-linking  to photos you don't own.   

Yes, I'm a totalitarian son of a motherless goat.  I've come from a long line of both successful and failed forums, gaming and non.  Perhaps it's coincidence, but the failures all were lenient on personal attacks, the successes were not. 
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Unorthodox on November 16, 2012, 10:40:00 PM
Oh, the biggest thing is, whatever rule you decide on.  ENFORCE IT.  There will be someone to come try the limits.  Don't go wishy washy, warning warning, fluffy play nice smiles.  Ban the warthog faced buffoon with conviction then IP ban the inevitable DL he creates.   ;nuke;
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 16, 2012, 10:46:17 PM
I think you're probably right.

I will say this - I speak fluent troll, and I'm not going to play around with a rules lawyer.  Trolls love to protest their innocence to high heaven.  Well guess what; you're ruining it for everyone, and you can do that somewhere else, not here.

There's a good case to be made in that alone for keeping it simple.

(We're not very laid-back about piracy for a lot of reasons, of course.)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: t_ras on November 17, 2012, 05:31:43 AM
You notice that all of us have proposed rules based on our own bed past experiences at other forums?  I don't know what to make of that.

I still wonder if a lot of this shouldn't be covered by simple "No trolling" and "No spamming" rules, with extensive commentary appended - sort of a Talmud to the actual rules' Torah...

It might be the solution. As I wrote: Making a set of generic rules and then a set of recomendations to exsplain it.
I dont know if the goys know whats Torah and Talmud are ;) but this would be the perfect explenation.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Yitzi on November 18, 2012, 12:19:13 AM
You notice that all of us have proposed rules based on our own bed past experiences at other forums?  I don't know what to make of that.

Because bad experiences are the best guide of what a site needs.

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I still wonder if a lot of this shouldn't be covered by simple "No trolling" and "No spamming" rules, with extensive commentary appended - sort of a Talmud to the actual rules' Torah...

That's not really a perfect analogy unless you're planning to make the commentary unwritten for as long as possible, but yes, having basic rules with commentary explaining the details is definitely the way to go.

No personal attacks. 

NO caveats about it's ok here, but not here, but only if you're only teasing.  I could list the reasons, but suffice it to say the more exceptions you make the more you beg for the random bottom feeder to push the limits.  Just no.  And banhammer anyone that don't like it to the stoneage.

That really prevents a certain sort of interaction that would contribute to the forum.  I get the idea that "anyone who don't like it" would include BUncle.

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Depending on ownership stances on piracy, maybe a rule that we do not promote illegal activities, and maybe something about no hot-linking  to photos you don't own.   

I don't think hot-linking is really a problem unless the hot-link source really dislikes it...a rule that we do not promote illegal activities might be a good idea, though (although technically I think that means that anyone who purchased the GOG version of the game isn't allowed to download unofficial patches due to the EULA.)

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Perhaps it's coincidence, but the failures all were lenient on personal attacks, the successes were not.

Leniency on personal attacks is definitely out of the question.  The ban on personal attacks has to be strictly enforced...it just doesn't have to be absolutely comprehensive.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 18, 2012, 01:41:04 AM
...It's not like I'd be as happy if I couldn't make fun of Uno a little...
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Unorthodox on November 18, 2012, 01:45:02 AM


That really prevents a certain sort of interaction that would contribute to the forum.  I get the idea that "anyone who don't like it" would include BUncle.


It boils down to which would contribute more.  I stand by my no nonsense philosophy.  It's not for everyone, no. 

It's been my experience that artists (and I would count modders among them) tend to be rather sensitive folks who don't take kindly to a lot of that stuff.  Those are the people I would like to get to know and attract. 
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 18, 2012, 01:50:02 AM
You have a point.  We definitely want  those guys.

But I want neither a police state nor a cuddly bunny forum.  I mean, I don't know of a cuddly bunny 4x forum, but I don't care for us to try to fill that niche and police state is already taken.  If I can't joke around a little, there's no point in me being here, and I can hardly forbid others what I allow myself, in all fairness.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on November 19, 2012, 07:06:11 PM
It strikes to mention that IMO welcoming a newb one their first post is never off-topic anywhere - just, depending on the appropriateness of the thread, try not to push it getting into a subsequent conversation with them in the same place.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: JarlWolf on November 22, 2012, 04:00:02 AM
The way I see it is light hearted humour is perfectly fine no matter where and when posted, as long as its in context/not distracting to the subject matter.

As for trolls or what have you, people who are here to waste time to get a redundant form of rush from irritating people, just crush them. We aren't here for idiocy, were here to have fun and speak amongst ourselves. I would personally have it that every new member has to read the rules or so, or at least a message referencing it sent to them automatically as they join.

They break the rules, the rules break them, its simple. People who break serious rules that are explicitly stated within the new charter of rules should be punished for it.
People who aren't a serious problem but made a simple mistake or what not should get a warning.

And most of all, if people lack common sense, enforce it. They fail to follow, let natural selection take it's course.

I know im an authoritarian moldy at the worst but I think it's wise to have enforced rules combined with a compassionate community. It proves that we care for our forum's well being.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Green1 on December 23, 2012, 09:55:55 PM
My anarchist nature shows here. The more rules and policemen a forum community needs, the less fun place it is to be. Usually because the community has big asshats and needs all those rules. Hell, one board, Talk Rational has like friggin panels for each ban/ suspension and public "trial/appeals" threads with a member of the admin presenting the case to ban and a panel of members voting. One such was a girl than PMed folks getting money for things then being rude to the members. They ended up keeping her because their 3 page long forum rules charter did not say anything about gettiing money from members!

Elitist Jerks (a MMO board) Bans you for not using a search topic - or even asking a question.

How about this I think everyone can agree on:

Do Not be a Dick... we are all old bitter wargame nerds. No need for peeing in the inner sanctum. You are welcome here, friend

for those that need being a dick defined:

1. No spamming or advertising products or links to affiliate marketer websites.
2. No outright meanness or harassment. Arguements and debates are acceptable as this is a discussion board as long as personal attacks are left at the door and rational points are used.
3. Post with some substance. Over use of one to four sentence posts just to increase post count is frowned on.

Interpretation of those rules is left to BU and the mods and admins. But really, I do not see any real moderation that is needed since we are all war game nerds and all get along. I would have to leave if this was a FPS board.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on December 24, 2012, 12:59:44 AM
Well - I will say this.  I don't need no steenking rules.  We've done extremely well so far as a benign dictatorship -

The rules are for you guys.  A disproportionate percentage of the bad experiences I've had on forums over the years have starred man-children with no sense of proportion and shiny nerdbadges.  As a regular member, this place would make me nervous if I didn't know the fellows in charge (and their good records of not lording it over the membership) pretty well.  Under an ethical forum administration, a good ruleset protects you.  It articulates boundaries to what I can do to you and why.

Now all I need myself to run the place, people-wise, is a well thought-out moderating philosophy and the consent of my partner.  That, a friendly, respectful, manner and the occasional "dude; not cool" has worked VERY well.  If the members are content with that, I certainly am -- I only instigated this project because I WOULD want rules if I was still on the other side of the badge.  If y'all are happy the way things stand, I am.  Everybody happy is the name of the game.  Talk among yourselves.  ;)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: testdummy653 on January 22, 2013, 07:42:38 PM
being a dick defined:

1. No spamming or advertising products or links to affiliate marketer websites.
2. No outright meanness or harassment. Arguements and debates are acceptable as this is a discussion board as long as personal attacks are left at the door and rational points are used.
3. Post with some substance. Over use of one to four sentence posts just to increase post count is frowned on.

Interpretation of those rules is left to BU and the mods and admins. But really, I do not see any real moderation that is needed since we are all war game nerds and all get along. I would have to leave if this was a FPS board.

I hate rules that require you to write a page. Sometimes there is a need to be brief.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on January 22, 2013, 07:47:24 PM
Well, it's not been a problem so far, and strikes me as one of those 90s holdovers besides.  The server is a bit more powerful these days, so no strong need for a rule as long as no one makes it a problem.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Yitzi on January 22, 2013, 08:27:02 PM
Also, a post that is brief but has substance and isn't just to increase post count would still be ok by that rule.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: testdummy653 on January 23, 2013, 01:11:57 AM
I don't think forum needs in-depth rules, generalities such as no spam or no trolling should work.  I think each individual forum section should have their own rules sticky telling users what this forum is dedicated to and what can't be posted (I.E off topic or fan fiction can't be posted in Theory of Everything)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 14, 2013, 11:43:28 PM
It strikes me that one thing we haven't really covered is that standards differ from person to person; if, for example, Kilkakon is by nature a huge topic Nazi, clowns like me should HAVE TO respect his wishes, and without complaint.  I can find thread appropriate to joke around in, so I shouldn't have a problem with him wanting focused discussion in threads he started.  By the same light, Kil ought to be respectful and polite in asking me to cut it out or get out of his thread.  We don't have to come into conflict over it.

If a serious discussion broke out in, for example, Uno's "Total Chaos/Trolling Welcome/Everything Goes" thread, Kil would be right to ask me (or more likely sisko, as I'm probably guilty of SOMEthing in there) to split the thread or something.  We CAN just all get along.

...

We haven't unanimity, but perhaps a consensus, that a short list of broad "No Trolling" rules with much commentary appended for those who want to read in depth is the way to go - I think we've got what me need to at least get started right here in this thread, if anyone wants to do a lot of copy-pasting and get it organized.  Anyone?  (I'm fine with staying an unrestricted dictatorship, so I ain't gonna do it...)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Green1 on May 21, 2013, 08:26:59 PM
I really do not see any problems unless there are things going on behind the scenes in PMs. In fact, I have only seen you ban one person, BU, and only for a limited time at that.

This is a ancient 4x board. Everyone here is pretty cool and a bit older and very intelligent. It is not like you are a mod of MMO Champion or some of the various FPS boards. Those mod's banhammers are permanently stained with the blood of idiots and trolls. I do not think we have seen any true trolls (yet) and I am sure if one does appear, it will be dealt with.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 06, 2013, 12:15:10 AM
Hey, it just stuck me - sometimes you hear stories about someone PMing gross porn to someone who doesn't like it?  That's now officially against the rules here, before anyone's actually done it...  Send only smut of a sort you're fairly sure the recipient will appreciate, and like with teasing, stop if the other member asks, and don't call anyone a big fat girl for opting out.  This place runs on respect.

I'd rather there wasn't a lot of PM porn, anyway, so please don't take inspiration...
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: ete on August 06, 2013, 12:24:12 AM
About swear words since I saw BU ask someone not to use them earlier, I'm not someone who swears personally often, but imo it's something which should be allowed. Obviously if you're swearing at someone aggressively that's not on, but the issue there is that you're being nasty, not the swearing. No one here is going to be 12, or not have learned to tolerate the odd swear word, and I imagine some people feel a bit uncomfortable with a blanket swear prohibition.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 06, 2013, 01:35:52 AM
I was asking everyone to turn it down a notch.  We have a crappy swear filter, and I honestly don't like having to edit posts - but if certain common terms appear too often, all the search engines will classify this as an adult/NSFW site, and there go at least half our search hits, a lot of lurkers, and who knows how many future members.  Also, Kilkakon, and that's not one of my jokes.

I want those future members...

However, the feedback is appreciated, and I even tend to agree, if it was only a member comfort issue.  I'd tend to keep MY cussin' on a short leash, mind you, because it's just the classy way to behave in public.  This IS in public.  (You may have noted that I swear a lot more in the Staff Room; in private is a [censored] of a different color.)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: ete on August 06, 2013, 01:51:23 AM
Search engines don't care about sites which allow swear words for NSFW filters (if we had a forum dedicated to erotic fanfiction it may be different, but that's not the case), and though adsense does have a rule against excessive profanity there's no way we're going to get anything like close to what they'd have issue with, I've seen sites with significant swearing running adsense just fine.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: testdummy653 on August 06, 2013, 01:55:59 AM
If your going ask people to not to swear, then it should be a blanket rule. @Ete, just because this game is old doesn't mean we could have young members. (Also ete, I hope your doing well!)

Just thought I drop in.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: ete on August 06, 2013, 02:00:50 AM
Oh hey, you're here again at least for a moment. I'm.. eh. Well, if I was great I probably wouldn't be here, and it'll be good to finish off some bits of project. And yea, we could have young members, but they're going to be few and far between, and almost certainly pretty mature/intelligent youngsters if they have been introduced to this game and liked it enough to find this place. I'm not personally keen on loads of swearing, it just seems like an unnecessary and uncomfortable rule to ban it.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 06, 2013, 02:06:21 AM
Who said ban?  I asked y'all to keep it down, is all.

-Also; DUMMY!  :D :danc:
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: testdummy653 on August 06, 2013, 02:47:18 AM
Oh hey, you're here again at least for a moment. I'm.. eh. Well, if I was great I probably wouldn't be here, and it'll be good to finish off some bits of project. And yea, we could have young members, but they're going to be few and far between, and almost certainly pretty mature/intelligent youngsters if they have been introduced to this game and liked it enough to find this place. I'm not personally keen on loads of swearing, it just seems like an unnecessary and uncomfortable rule to ban it.

i will take "eh"... I think its an improvement from the last time we talked! I got a few email notification reminding me how much i missed this community.

I'm personally not against swearing. I agree banning is not the answer, but if you make any rule against swearing such as "No excessive swearing", you open the rules up to interpretation, and disagreement.

Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 06, 2013, 02:52:33 AM
I'll burn that bridge when I see it.  Who mentioned rules?  I threw a low-key request out there, and I hope that's it.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: testdummy653 on August 06, 2013, 02:54:48 AM
I'll burn that bridge when I see it.  Who mentioned rules?  I threw a low-key request out there, and I hope that's it.

Haha, well we are in the rules thread....
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: ete on August 06, 2013, 02:56:22 AM
Requests by an admin on rulesy things tend to be seen as rules by most people.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 06, 2013, 03:04:43 AM
My default mode is [admin hat off].

-Not really, I'm always thinking about forum business, but I want the respect I've earned and my suggestions taken on their merit, instead of blind Obedience to the Badge.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 06, 2013, 04:38:26 AM
Because, and I hope this isn't me trying to have my cake and eat it, too, but heavy is the head, and all that.  I take my responsibilities seriously, but I wanna be able to shoot the breeze and express my opinions, and hang out like anyone else - without worrying any more than I already do that someone will get stepped on.  And if I can't enjoy myself, I'm wasting my time here.  Once in a while, I make policy statements, some of them while explaining/answering Why Things Are The Way They Are, but how often do I give anyone an order?  I feel like I've failed if I have to do that.  Good leaders, whenever possible, lead people where they want to go - and spend most of the rest of the time persuading them that they want to go there.

I wanna build this forum community some more.  I want those kiddies, if they can behave.  (I've known a few, and my first boy wonder was known to protest when talk got too dirty, honest.)  And I want to run a classy place.  I know keeping it clean is a pain -

-Oh, I give up trying to explain this.  I'm eaten up with forum business for several day now, and tense, and if me saying please isn't good enough, you're welcome to appeal to my partner.  I bet he won't say please.

Haha, well we are in the rules thread....
I didn't bring it in here.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Kilkakon on August 06, 2013, 05:15:25 AM
Also, Kilkakon, and that's not one of my jokes.
It's funny because it's true!
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: ete on August 06, 2013, 04:32:46 PM
Chill, I'm not trying to push you or attack you, sorry if me being direct made you feel that way. I was not in the best of states of mind so probably did not word things that well. I just understood an admin request (backed up by the implication of editing out swear words, even if the request was phrased politely) on a fairly mild swear word to mean that swearing was not allowed, and thought that was probably not ideal. I'm not one to swear much personally and don't massively care about the rule one way or another really, just felt it was worth bringing up for clarification and justification.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 06, 2013, 04:50:21 PM
I'm under a lot of stress ATM, and you know what?  The swear policy was already in place when I got here.  I've little idea what I would have come up with if I'd had to formulate a policy.  Probably not that different, though.

There ARE sites that rate your family-friendliness, I've seen them, and the search engines DO consult those. 

I've said my piece on this.  Being in charge sucks in a lot of ways that aren't obvious.  I let a lot (low-level stuff like "ass", that I wish people wouldn't use) slide, because I don't want to be in a place that's that strict, whatever side of the nerdbadge I'm on.  But certain words are just never going to be permitted here, and that's that.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: ete on August 06, 2013, 05:01:46 PM
Please calm down :(, I'm not attacking you or telling you to change the rule, I was literally just bringing it up so it could be discussed and so that in future I+other people reading the discussion would have clarity on the policy.

I did look around a bit about the search engine thing, and came to the conclusion that it was unlikely to apply to the level of swearing we get around here based on various threads and sources. That may be wrong, but it seemed to make sense and fit with my experience.

And perhaps you're assuming I'm not familiar with the problems of being in charge? I created and ran a wiki for a ~50k member community for several years and have had at least my fair share of having to handle difficult situations there and elsewhere in leadership positions. There are always going to be tricky bits.

I can tell you're stressed and hope I'm not too much of a part of that. I'm not sure if you can tell my state of mind, but if you'd want to have a proper talk we can compare notes on issues on irc, I'll be hanging out there in an hour or two for the rest of the evening.

We both like building things, let's stay friends and both build more of the stuff we like?
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 06, 2013, 05:25:57 PM
It took 20 minutes and lord knows how many tries to even load this thread this time, just so everyone knows one of the things wearing at my nerves.  Something weirder than the intermittent service I've been up against for a month with my internet is going on today.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: ete on August 06, 2013, 05:58:59 PM
Right. Hopefully that gets sorted soon.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Unorthodox on August 06, 2013, 06:04:27 PM
Something to maybe consider is an official DL type.  So we got BU, and then we have ADMIN. 

I've considered it in the Halloweenforum.  It gets tiring sometimes to have to separate personal opinion from TEH MOD SAYS SO.  Course, the whole DL adds another pain of it's own. 

I know I've added to some of the swearfilter problems when it went down/whatever the Hades is up with it lately.  I kinda enjoyed the [insert thesaurus here] nature of it, so haven't been running things by my internal filter here. 
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 06, 2013, 06:20:18 PM
I just got back from a system reset, and so far I seem to be back to the normal bad-internet-service crap I've dealt with lately, and no more of the sub-dialup speed and threads stopping half-loaded I was getting today.  So there's than much good news.

Uno, you put your finger on it exactly; it gets tiring sometimes to have to separate personal opinion from TEH MOD SAYS SO.

You and some of the other WPC guys can back me up that I was a bossy CITIZEN, and I believe in the power of persuasion and nagging, and I HATE when my normal behavior from over four years ago gets taken for the Word of God Armed w/ Banhammer.  I definitely noticed the same when I first made mod there.  (I hung out with one of Loretta Lynn's sons one evening back in my showbiz days; naturally, I was pumping him for celebrity gossip, but he frequently mentioned that he's rather I was interested in him for himself, not for who his mother was.  This is a little like that, though I WAS interested in him for himself - and the fact that he'd made out with Cher.)  I'd like to be able to be bossy when the mood strikes me, as is much older habit for me than acting like I'm in charge, and have that taken on the merits of the appeal, and not as "I can ban you".

I may take up that idea about an Admin DL; maybe something with a banhammer avatar and an appropriate name.  Unfortunately, I can't take "Administrator" out from under my handle without giving up the powers for this account, and that would be too inconvenient.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Unorthodox on August 06, 2013, 06:48:33 PM
I may take up that idea about an Admin DL; maybe something with a banhammer avatar and an appropriate name.  Unfortunately, I can't take "Administrator" out from under my handle without giving up the powers for this account, and that would be too inconvenient.

Yeah, same problem I have there. 

MOST the time I'm just being me, but the big glowy "admin" really gets to some people. 

Don't worry, though, I don't even notice the 'admin' on you.   :P
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 06, 2013, 06:56:16 PM
Good.

I want this account to be me, the main, but I can't give up being able to see all the other stuff, and the forum software here has no options for changing the status display under people's handle.  Wait - I have an idea...

Anyway, I've made a good avatar for that DL, and I think I'll have to replace my plain citizen test account as what stays signed in on Chrome, but I think this will work...
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 06, 2013, 06:59:02 PM
No, the idea didn't work - I'd hoped adding myself to a membergroup would override the "Administrator" status, but no.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: ete on August 06, 2013, 07:17:46 PM
You could probably give all the permissions of an admin to a non-admin usergroup, give yourself that group, then remove yourself from the original admin group?
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: BU Admin on August 06, 2013, 07:22:01 PM
Doesn't matter.  Admin overrides everything in displaying.

I wasn't willing to start a new email account just to have another DL, so I renamed BU DL, and I'll have to strip admin powers from one of my accounts when I need to check normal citizen view.

I hated losing the goofy face avatar, though.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 06, 2013, 07:27:11 PM
Oh - I see what you're suggesting, but I don't think there's any way to give myself all admin powers w/o being an admin.  And it's just too inconvenient w/o all of them.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Unorthodox on August 06, 2013, 07:34:11 PM
IIRC, that's true, but you could maybe lose one or two powers for the new group...like the new group would be unable to edit the 'admin' group, for instance, but could do everything else?
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 06, 2013, 07:52:21 PM
Naw.  Sometimes I need to have a look at people's accounts, for instance, and there's no way to give non-staff the access I need.  There's no way to give non-staff post editing and thread surgery powers.  It's a million things, not just being able to see the Staff Room.  Best I could do is demote myself to forum-wide mod, which would make exactly no difference in the postbit display problem, and still limit my powers inconveniently.

I'm just going to have to figure a way to make BU Admin high-profile enough for people to notice w/o actually using that account on people much.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Kilkakon on August 07, 2013, 02:07:17 AM
Thanks for being adults guys. :)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Green1 on August 07, 2013, 05:58:15 AM
Naw.  Sometimes I need to have a look at people's accounts, for instance, and there's no way to give non-staff the access I need.  There's no way to give non-staff post editing and thread surgery powers.  It's a million things, not just being able to see the Staff Room.  Best I could do is demote myself to forum-wide mod, which would make exactly no difference in the postbit display problem, and still limit my powers inconveniently.

I'm just going to have to figure a way to make BU Admin high-profile enough for people to notice w/o actually using that account on people much.

What high profile. Shouldnt the mod of the site asking you something be enough? Maybe I should use my bar/forum analogy.

I look at it like this. I used to have a habit of getting a little too wasted in my party days in New Orleans. The better bartenders would give me a gentle reminder that I may want to slow up. If I got too obnoxious, they would ask me to leave. Now, in New Orleans there are bars on every corner. And, yes, there were some bars I either did not mesh with the clientele (bad posters) or the bartender was a jerk (bad mod). Did I gripe or raise a stink if someone told me something, no. There are other bars. If you value the bar you go to, you respect the staff and do not give them lip. Even being asked to leave is no biggie and no insult to you as a person.

I was amazed at how some people would escalate stuff to unnecessary levels at these bars over petty stuff. Even if it was not petty, there are other bars. Maybe it does not have the English draft you like or the cute girl, but you can still drink. Now, you become an asswipe there.... you may want to look in the mirror. Or, actually do what the bartender at both places say and fly right.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: BU Admin on August 21, 2013, 09:16:50 PM
So, not a soul has let on that they noticed, but I did figure out how to suppress my admin status from displaying in my (BUncle) main account's postbit.  Thank you for the DL idea, Uno.

I think it's an important expression of how I lead that I don't need the Word of God w/ Banhammer Showing.

Dio?  Question - I guess when you popped up, I was acting like I was in charge, or at least a friendly old hand with a large postcount who knew the ropes.  It must have become obvious pretty quickly that BUncle was actually in charge, but did you notice that there was nothing about it in my postbit?  I'd be interested in hearing how all this seems to a brand newb.



Finally, I think I stepped on the talk about swear policy too hard too soon because I was in a bad mood, and nothing official should ever happen because I'm in a bad mood.  Keeping in mind that sisko and I are not likely to change it significantly no matter what anyone says, do feel free to discuss the policy to your heart's content - the feedback may prove useful to us somehow.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Dio on August 21, 2013, 09:35:29 PM
First, I had been lurking on this forum for about a year and half before I became a member. This prior knowledge means that I knew of certain posters and who were the most active on this website. Second, I quickly made the connection that BUncle was an administrator because I looked at the different catergories for the staff members. In short, I am not exactly a newb.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 21, 2013, 09:46:57 PM
Ah.  Apologies for assuming wrongly and being a little condescending, then.  I, too, did a LOT of lurking before I signed up at my first Civ forum - and I was new to the forum, not the game, being almost OG for having taken up AC late the year it came out, and playing the demo extensively before release.  How long have you been playing?
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Rymdolov on September 02, 2013, 05:53:38 PM
Finally, I think I stepped on the talk about swear policy too hard too soon because I was in a bad mood, and nothing official should ever happen because I'm in a bad mood.  Keeping in mind that sisko and I are not likely to change it significantly no matter what anyone says, do feel free to discuss the policy to your heart's content - the feedback may prove useful to us somehow.

I said this in another thread, but perhaps it's worth repeating here: I don't mind swearing and cursing, but I do mind if someone is reluctant to join the forum because there's cursing and swearing going on. That's why I don't mind keeping myself from swearing. I would be annoyed if there were certain subjects that we were not allowed to discuss, but some guidelines and rules about how to discuss things are fine with me.

That said, there might be times when certain subjects should be avoided, if they only serve to start arguments. We are all adult enough to notice this if it should happen, I think, and not stoop to flamebaiting. Due to the nature of SMAC it's unavoidable to have some interesting political discussions, though. The political content of the game is a large part of what makes it interesting.

Sorry about rambling a bit.  :)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: BU Admin on September 02, 2013, 05:59:48 PM
Finally, I think I stepped on the talk about swear policy too hard too soon because I was in a bad mood, and nothing official should ever happen because I'm in a bad mood.  Keeping in mind that sisko and I are not likely to change it significantly no matter what anyone says, do feel free to discuss the policy to your heart's content - the feedback may prove useful to us somehow.

I said this in another thread, but perhaps it's worth repeating here: I don't mind swearing and cursing, but I do mind if someone is reluctant to join the forum because there's cursing and swearing going on. That's why I don't mind keeping myself from swearing. I would be annoyed if there were certain subjects that we were not allowed to discuss, but some guidelines and rules about how to discuss things are fine with me.

That said, there might be times when certain subjects should be avoided, if they only serve to start arguments. We are all adult enough to notice this if it should happen, I think, and not stoop to flamebaiting. Due to the nature of SMAC it's unavoidable to have some interesting political discussions, though. The political content of the game is a large part of what makes it interesting.

Sorry about rambling a bit.  :)
Perhaps the membership would like to speak out on/propose ideas about guidelines?  I only consider announcements I've labeled as rules to be actual rules, but I do consider any idea proposed in this thread and not contradicted to be site policy that guides my moderation decisions.

That wasn't a ramble, Rym; it was intelligent focused and a helpful suggestion.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 03, 2013, 02:01:46 AM
Kil, would you care to speak up as someone who'd rather not see cussin'?
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Kilkakon on September 03, 2013, 02:14:04 AM
Yeah I would appreciate it if people were mature and avoided that sort of language. As most of the people here are older than myself anyway it shouldn't be an issue--we're a bunch guys (and possibly girls) who like to think and explore different points of view in the frame that is SMAC and factions. :)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Green1 on September 03, 2013, 02:26:13 AM
Yeah I would appreciate it if people were mature and avoided that sort of language. As most of the people here are older than myself anyway it shouldn't be an issue--we're a bunch guys (and possibly girls) who like to think and explore different points of view in the frame that is SMAC and factions. :)

I think there are like 2-3 girls on here.

I have been told by BU they are too good for me. So, I will have to keep my charm to WoW girls over vent when I get those kicks. Too bad I am a PvP MMOer. Far more prey on RP and PvE servers. PvPers are a sausage fest. Twinks especially.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 03, 2013, 02:30:37 AM
I told you my sister was too good.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 03, 2013, 03:08:21 AM
Here's a little something I wrote up about four years ago on what I think about arguing done right:

Quote
There's little in life I love more than a good argument. It takes the right kind of people, and I think we have a lot of them here. So let's see if we can start a good one- or several.



 A few ground rules/observations- that you may also take as a little essay about how to argue productively:

 The object is not to win, but to come to an understanding or educate each other.

 It helps beyond measure sometimes to discuss your respective values and base assumptions as they relate to the issue at hand.

 Know your thesis and your opponent's. That is, be sure you and the other person aren't actually talking past each other about two somewhat different things. Know what you're arguing about.

 However, it's no fun if the conversation can't go where it wants to. Be cool about the topic changing- just know what it is at all times. It's okay to try to steer it back, but good to not be bossy about it.

 It's like the dozens; if you get mad (or compare someone you're arguing with to Hitler, for that matter) you lose. Really; well-intentioned persons can say things so utterly at variance with your view of something important to you that it is a good thing when an adult says he's had enough and bows out. Do it with good grace and you haven't lost.

 If you set out to provoke anyone just to win via the previous guideline, you lose. That's immature troll-behavior and dirty pool.

 It doesn't have to be polite, but the rules of this forum and the laws in your jurisdiction apply. Polite is better.

 At least a sketchy knowledge of the rules of formal debate will help you enormously, even though those rules will not be enforced here. Please don't be a jerk about the rules of formal debate, either pro or con.

 It is always in order to point out that something just said belongs in a separate argument than the one you're in.

 I'm lazy about interrupting a conversation to research the topic. You are welcome to do so, however, but I will likely try to challenge your source on any grounds I find valid.

 Again, if you only play to win, you're doing it wrong. Try to persuade me you're right. Convincing your opponent is victory- so is finding out you're wrong and learning something.

 [Current-day addition: As I said to Nikolai above, Recreational debate is mental fencing - on that level, it can be a huge buzzkill to go straight to googling, rather like bringing a gun to a knife fight. To me, that tends to feel like the other guy cheated, since I like to rely on whatever happened to already be in my head when I walked in...]
Not really the guidelines Rym suggested, but maybe this will get discussion started in that direction.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: BU Admin on September 22, 2013, 07:27:51 AM
I made an executive decision tonight - I enabled the option to allow members to turn off the swear filter for them.  If I understand how it works, when I type [intercourse]in a post, ete can see it now, not my funny translation.  I turned off the swear filter for ete.

This should satisfy everyone's needs nicely.  We actually lost a newb last month because it really bothered him that he couldn't say [intercourse]where Kilkakon and my mom might see it - and I'm not running out to tell him I fixed the problem and invite him back with that attitude.  In this, it ought to be easier for us, as barbarians, to act like civilized men than for the civilized men to have to take our [poop].  Mom and Kil should have the right to not see any of you talking foul online - with this change, they have to sign up, log in, and turn off the filter to see it (when the filter's working,) so that should satisfy.

(No, Mom doesn't browse here; she's a metaphor, though she really for real doesn't care to be exposed to a lot of cussin', and I'm pretty passionate about that on her behalf, and indeed, anyone who feels that way.  It's just the Right Thing to Do, to show them some consideration.)

As with all things, I ask my members to police themselves - if something nasty gets past the filter, which I'm leaving on in both of my accounts, I'm still going to censor it as before, and I ask for your forbearance in that.  It's probably a good idea to let me know if you have it turned off, so I don't think you knew if something got past and start feeling irritated the fifth time I have to edit someone in a day.  Don't trust the filter too much, what with it not always working, and PULEEEZ don't constantly make work for me; I HATE having to moderate people. 

Also, keep in mind that I'm happier if you don't make excessive use of some rude terms that aren't in the filter and are usually tolerated.  I'm looking at you, Jarl...
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Kilkakon on September 22, 2013, 07:37:31 AM
Can I get one with stars? :) Only if it's easy to do.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: JarlWolf on September 22, 2013, 07:40:46 AM
I really admire this decision BUncle, and think its a good idea.

I can use actual swears in my AAR when needed, and for those sensitive to it can be omitted from it, instead of me doing bypasses. My AAR is gritty and rough, and im a relative barbarian heathen commie scum, but I can respect people's wishes, which is why I try to exchange foul mouthed words for more cleaner replacements from time to time. (I'm still pretty bad for it.)

I won't be cussing my head off, and I prefer using words only when needed. I'll still be trying to clean up my act though mind, I cuss enough in my daily life that I'd appall a band of grogged sailors.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 22, 2013, 07:46:57 AM
I do too.

Just remember that for these purposes, [poop]will be censored and damn will not, so say [intercourse]and [poop]a lot, not so much with damn and ass...

Can I get one with stars? :) Only if it's easy to do.
I don't think there's any way to change the way the censoring displays just for you, or a usergroup or a theme.  If I find out differently, of course I will hook you up, instanter.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Kilkakon on September 22, 2013, 07:50:31 AM
Alright sure. :) I'd rather not even get euphemisms of inferior language if I can help it. Of course, if most people are keeping things clean then it's all good anyway. :)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Geo on September 22, 2013, 08:00:10 AM
It seems a mostly harmless solution.
(just my way of saying I've read and comply)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: ete on September 22, 2013, 10:27:13 PM
Allowing users to turn the swear filter on and off is an excellent compromise in my opinion, people who don't want to see swear words don't and at the same time people who don't mind them can see what the poster actually posted.

However, I don't see a way to turn on/off the filter? Where are the preferences for that on this forum?
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 22, 2013, 10:31:51 PM
Drat.  Did I leave out mentioning how to do it after all that?

Go to your profile>Look and Layout>seventh item of the options you can check or uncheck:  "Leave words uncensored. "  I checked it for you.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: ete on September 22, 2013, 10:38:03 PM
Got it.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Kilkakon on September 23, 2013, 12:30:16 AM
Compromise is the right word, yeah. :)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Green1 on September 23, 2013, 12:43:09 AM
Some folks seem to go insane over a few words.

I think the occasional cuss word is okay as long as it is in context and (somewhat) on topic. There are many things out there that are best described with a cuss word.

Now, just cussing out a forum member is covered under other rules. Nor is it in context or on topic. That is flaming and should probably be dealt with if it is bad enough,

Still, I will leave the filter on. It is funny at times and we all know what was originally typed,
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 23, 2013, 01:35:45 AM
I note that the swearing issue is something I take a conservative stance on, and am not very flexible about as a matter of decent public behavior, which is what we insist on on these boards - but I'm very pleased that I noticed the turnoff option lately while I've been working all the forum display stuff lately. 

Maximum happiness for the maximum people is the only real meaningful standard/goal/guideline for forming forum management policy,  -We DO listen to the people here, and what you want DOES matter. ;b;
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Valka on September 23, 2013, 05:54:35 AM
Does anyone mind if I occasionally say the word "cowpies"? (it should be clear what word I really mean)


I don't anticipate having much reason to use it on this forum; I only use it when I'm really angry or annoyed, and I haven't been either angry or annoyed here. :)


Or maybe add a "censored" smiley?


This was the solution I came up with on my Doctor Who forum, which is mostly populated by nice ladies who worship Tom Baker:

Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 23, 2013, 05:57:49 AM
"cowpies"?
Jeeze, don't get carried away.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Valka on September 23, 2013, 06:03:13 AM
 ???


Okay, I won't use it.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 23, 2013, 06:06:49 AM
Nah, be a nasty lady. :)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Geo on September 23, 2013, 11:43:17 AM
Nah, be a nasty lady. :)

Or cheeky instead of chic? ;)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 24, 2014, 07:25:02 PM
I'd like, at this juncture in time, to underline that all proposed policy/rules in this thread that I've not contradicted I consider rules/policy binding on me and you.  Pretty much everything's in this thread, if not in a neat list.

(Protip: somebody ought to make a neat list.  We'll discuss formalizing as we go, if anybody takes a run at it.  It's would be helpful to me to have it organized so I can consult and make sure everything's here.)

Keeping in mind that sisko and I retain veto power and will use our judgment in enforcing, the power is in YOUR hands to have a lot of say in what AC2 is and how it's run.  Personally, I LOVE that we're a community so mature, chilled out and well-behaved that we don't much need rules - but we may have a flood of unruly young people to assimilate later this year, and may very much need that organized Rules List to show them.

This might be a very good time for the Committee of Everyone Interested for Rules to resume interest.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: vv221 on May 24, 2014, 07:45:22 PM
If nobody take the task before me, I should have time to compile everything in here in a quasi-neat list next week.
(it will be a good time to read those rules too, I conform here to the "Friendly Arm's Inn" rule: « Common sense rules the day. »)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 24, 2014, 08:04:06 PM
Common sense is pretty much all you need.  You're our kind of people.

I'll just talk to you if there's any problem - you get to try to persuade me right back if that happens.


You'll be pleased to discover as you read that we don't have a lot of rules.  Haven't needed much specifics.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: SenniTreborius on October 07, 2014, 03:55:18 PM
Hello this post probably shows what a noob at this I am, but here goes.
First I don't know if I'm posting this in the right thread. I'm a bit unsure of what goes where. I have accidentally conducted the same conversation on at least two threads.
Things I would like to now are WTFgoingon How to use this BB properly. Sorry there isn't an Icon for sheepish.
What I would like to do.
1. Get OBS to work recording SMACX on my laptop (easy if I have a desktop as OBS can direct capture and stream SMAX on desktops). But ever since I installed OBS I can't Alt-Tab out to run in windowed mode.
1a. Find out which forum I should be discussing this in, instead of wherever my email alert takes me.
2. Read some AARs by very proficient players. At the moment I don't know which are which.
3. Find out what a GotM is, how one loads and plays it. I unpacked one into a separate folder just to look and would probably have messed up my main install if I'd unpacked it directly into the Smacx root (lots of files that I believe should have went into a separate folder.
4. Pop my cherry in MP probably with a PBEM game, by first finding out how to.

Sorry again but I realise that I am careering about this BB like a mindworm in the rec commons. So I should get this under control, and at least post in the right forum in future.
Yours with embarrassed blushes
SenniTreborius husband of Deirdre
PS Free Scotland
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Geo on October 07, 2014, 04:11:57 PM
PS Free Scotland

Welcome to the datalinksforums. ;deidre;
In case you didn't heard yet, the referendum to have Scotland independent failed last month.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: SenniTreborius on October 07, 2014, 04:42:34 PM
Only until the next one. But let's not talk politics, the Free Scotland was a reference to Deirdre, who is from Free Scotland in the game.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Geo on October 09, 2014, 07:01:07 PM
 ;hippy
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: SenniTreborius on October 09, 2014, 08:22:28 PM
LOL ;lol
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 09, 2014, 08:30:40 PM
...Ten minutes later, the Devil came in and said "All right, everybody; coffee break's over.  Back on your heads."...

I do not know why all this OT is in this thread.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: vv221 on October 25, 2014, 05:22:43 AM
If nobody take the task before me, I should have time to compile everything in here in a quasi-neat list next week.
(it will be a good time to read those rules too, I conform here to the "Friendly Arm's Inn" rule: « Common sense rules the day. »)
Whoops, forgot about this!
Sorry guys, I’m a bit busy right now, which means I might or might not pick up the task…
Title: Policy/Rule Announcement
Post by: BU Admin on July 22, 2015, 05:24:57 AM
This has never come up before, because I've only seen it happen to me, and though I have rights like any AC2 member, I have to be willing to take more crap from people for several reasons.

Members who cannot find it in themselves to lay off when another member has already asked twice are going to get vacations.

In my case, since it would be utterly foolish to have a Lèse-majesté rule like some places do -to the contrary, I have to put up with more than anyone else because of my position- you get three chances from now on even with me.  The actual rule is that I can do you after keeping it up on me twice -and do keep that in mind, always- but policy is that since I shouldn't moderate my own disputes -but no one else w/ powers is likely to come along and pitch in in a timely fashion- I will choose to not go all nerdbadge as soon as I want to and the rules allow -and believe me, I've REALLY wanted to on no less than three past occasions by the time I said to lay off once.  Wanting to kill is a more accurate description of my feelings as of a third or later offense.  It's really bad for the health of my keyboard, not to say my own.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I have to be happy here, too, or bad news for this community where I do more than my share of the work.

The Management resents having to say a word of this, deeply.


-In a related note, The Administration of this site frowns upon rules-lawyering strongly.  Offenses in arguing about the rules and their application -in the sole opinion of the management, disingenuous protests, most especially- may be counted as part of/compounding and exacerbating the Original Offense.  Doing so is not recommended.
Title: Re: Policy/Rule Announcement
Post by: Yitzi on July 22, 2015, 03:29:14 PM
This has never come up before, because I've only seen it happen to me, and though I have rights like any AC2 member, I have to be willing to take more crap from people for several reasons.

Members who cannot find it in themselves to lay off when another member has already asked twice are going to get vacations.

I presume the reason for "twice" is because once might be part of joking around?
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 22, 2015, 03:48:14 PM
I'm not a hard-butt and wouldn't enjoy a hard-butt place, and I think most of the rest of the members wouldn't.  Rules suck and the least moderation is better moderation - we've a mature crowd and most situations work themselves out with little or no nudging.  I've never seen anyone else have to ask anyone else to cut it out twice, in short.

---

A word about newbs - my policy of embracing them with an eye towards the future is well-known (and productive, I daresay).  But upon re-reading this thread last night, I see that I've never announced a bit of policy I've intended to since I had to permaban the poison newb/stalker in MP quite awhile ago now:

There's a sort of informal probation period for a new member.  If you can't go your first ten posts or so without being rude, I'm probably going to cast you into the outer darkness without hesitation.  Some animals are more equal than others, and life's too short to put up with envelope-pushing from a stranger.
Title: Re: Policy/Rule Announcement
Post by: Dio on July 23, 2015, 02:03:56 AM
This has never come up before, because I've only seen it happen to me, and though I have rights like any AC2 member, I have to be willing to take more crap from people for several reasons.

Members who cannot find it in themselves to lay off when another member has already asked twice are going to get vacations.

In my case, since it would be utterly foolish to have a Lèse-majesté rule like some places do -to the contrary, I have to put up with more than anyone else because of my position- you get three chances from now on even with me.  The actual rule is that I can do you after keeping it up on me twice -and do keep that in mind, always- but policy is that since I shouldn't moderate my own disputes -but no one else w/ powers is likely to come along and pitch in in a timely fashion- I will choose to not go all nerdbadge as soon as I want to and the rules allow -and believe me, I've REALLY wanted to on no less than three past occasions by the time I said to lay off once.  Wanting to kill is a more accurate description of my feelings as of a third or later offense.  It's really bad for the health of my keyboard, not to say my own.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I have to be happy here, too, or bad news for this community where I do more than my share of the work.

The Management resents having to say a word of this, deeply.


-In a related note, The Administration of this site frowns upon rules-lawyering strongly.  Offenses in arguing about the rules and their application -in the sole opinion of the management, disingenuous protests, most especially- may be counted as part of/compounding and exacerbating the Original Offense.  Doing so is not recommended.
A smiley that I think represents the fundamental purpose of this post.  :rules:
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Dale on July 23, 2015, 08:02:37 AM
So based on the thread where this came up, what is the real world application of this new rule? Based on that thread i understand it as:

"Trolling other members, abusing 'POWAS' and being called out on hypocracy is NOT acceptable...... unless you are BUncle."

Just want to get the understanding clear. Okay?
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Eadee on July 23, 2015, 08:10:35 AM
"Trolling other members, abusing 'POWAS' and being called out on hypocracy is NOT acceptable...... unless you are BUncle."

Nah, all these things are alright if you're no jerk who continues such behaviour even when it turns out you violated someones dignity with it. At least thats how I read it.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Valka on July 23, 2015, 09:56:58 AM
Are the rest of us allowed to know where/how this started?
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 23, 2015, 01:39:04 PM
Dale has a reading comprehension problem, is not the only one, and we're not having this conversation anymore.

I despise revisionist history, so I haven't disappeared anything and will not do so now as was my first impulse.  Therefore, forth offence on this particular argument and 24 hours off.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Dale on July 26, 2015, 12:39:25 PM
A shame i missed it. Have been on cub camp all weekend.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Eadee on July 26, 2015, 03:39:40 PM
A shame i missed it. Have been on cub camp all weekend.
I'm sure you could get another one if you ask nicely :P
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 26, 2015, 04:15:38 PM
I'm sure that won't be necessary.  Dale's pretty good about understanding when the hammer comes down -better than I am- and I'm glad my token action didn't actually inconvenience him, as I'd planned/hoped.  It was a gesture, and the formalities Uno has been egging me on about are satisfied.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Dale on July 26, 2015, 08:49:03 PM
Some might even argue that looking after 21 8-11 year olds is even worse. ;)

But BU is right. I pushed the boundary, got snapped and now the issue is dead.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 26, 2015, 08:56:17 PM
Some might even argue that looking after 21 8-11 year olds is even worse. ;)

But BU is right. I pushed the boundary, got snapped and now the issue is dead.
;b;
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on July 26, 2015, 09:10:34 PM
Okay, I should probably explain something for those who don't know the history so no one gets the wrong idea - Dale and I totally have one.  We're friends who fall out from time to time, the power relationship used to be reversed, and I made (endless, intense - I was a very useful but very troublesome citizen) problems for him, then. 

[shrugs]  Water under the bridge, folks, and don't make too much of it.  This latest is, too - I'm pleased with him, ATM (or would be if he'd answer in the Rock Run thread)...
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 07, 2015, 05:16:49 AM
Like some other policy announcements I've made in this thread, this is something that's sorta always been in my head, but not worked out completely, so only fair if I put it out there in public, so's nobody can claim it's secret rule.

We're a community, and we have a style.

This is all really covered by what I said long ago in Building a Community: act like an adult.

We're nerds, right?  Poor (/weak/no) social skills being one of the defining traits - or else we'd be cool regular people who happen to like gaming and SF, like we'd rather imagine.  But we're nerds in a nerd community, and that means we have to be patient and tolerant with/of each other and make allowances.  Most of us mean well.  Period.

But I have to ask everyone - pay a little attention to the room you're in, to the atmosphere, the general style of the members and posts.  Be different, sure -AC2 is diverse and cherishes diversity as interesting and edumacationable- but try to not make your difference anyone else's problem.  Be well-intentioned and try, and you'll get a lot of rope while I try to work with you.

-Obviously, I've still not gotten this crystalized enough in mah haid and need to at least sleep on it and try to articulate more precisely and clearly in the future.

It's part of a larger policy principal I call Serial Vexatious Poster; if you're managing to annoy enough people enough of the time, the management reserves the right to take action w/o need of other specific rule violation.  You have to be bad overall for the health/happiness community in our opinion, which is a mighty high bar of irritating-ness to hurdle.  Not to worry; I would never resort to this one in any situation where the offender does not know (s)he is in the doghouse far in advance.  It's really not much more than a catchall to help that much with shutting up &^%$#@! rules lawyers.

-So, if you're only sometimes Vexatious, you're in good company, and have nothing to worry about...
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 07, 2015, 05:10:07 PM
Okay, I have thought of a better way to put it.  First, a little story for context.

I don't quite remember the sign on the front of a nearby Laundromat that said "Whites Only".  My sister and a friend only two years older say they do.  My mother has told me that when she was a girl, that sort of thing was considered crass and trashy.  -It wasn't because her 'Southern' family wasn't racist back in the 40s and 50s; it was just that they had more class than to approve of rudeness in public to total strangers, or ever engage in it themselves.

-And there it is.

We don't so much insist on politeness, exactly, at AC2, but it's something of a majority habit here, and we DO insist on civility.  This is closely related to the trolling rule, with the difference that expressing your honestly-held opinion can be not any sort of trolling and still be so far outside reason and decency -and tend to offend a vast majority- as to be something I CAN NOT ALLOW.  Some opinions are rude to say in public, no matter how diplomatically expressed, and we don't have a lot of room for rudeness around here.  It's not the atmosphere/tone we've got going, and it's not going to be allowed to change.

Or to put it another way, still using racism as an example: if you are dumb enough to think White Men are under siege, you have cherry-picked your facts, at best, because White Men Rule The World, and you are a racist, whether you acknowledge it to yourself or not.  That doesn't mean I automatically don't like you -I wouldn't have any friends if I rejected people for being wrong- but it does mean you need to keep that particular turd-in-the-punchbowl under your hat at AC2.  -Or not be doing anything at all here.  Period.  No 'but it's true!' (you idjit nerd; truth is only a defense in libel cases in court).  No rules-lawyering.

We cherish diversity.  We do.  And there is no paradox in therefore having a low tolerance for rudeness and/or anti-diverse opinions being expressed.  If you can't get your head straight that it's complicated and there are more truths involved than the ones you cherry-picked, while you're posting here at Alpha Centari 2 ---

Be civil.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Yitzi on September 07, 2015, 05:21:39 PM
if you are dumb enough to think White Men are under siege, you have cherry-picked your facts, at best, because White Men Rule The World

Actually, the truth is more complicated than either of those; White Men have a lot of power, but the push to reduce that power is increasing, and while most of that push is just to equalize things, there are extremists within it who want to reverse them (or who paint with an overly broad brush and want to equalize things even in those cases where the people who should have power just so happen in this case to be white men).
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 07, 2015, 05:49:37 PM
..This speaks to the issue I was using as an example, not the site policy, but I opened that door in the context I provided, so...

I clicked on a link purporting to relate crime statistics broken down by race recently, and I noticed that the author at the link had failed to account for the obvious truth that black too often = poor, and poor usually = higher crime rates.  Turns out the author has his own page on the Southern Poverty Law Center's website.

Allow me to submit that there's an even larger truth - which you did touch on.  In a free society, there's always going to be people fighting the power -whether for the right reasons or wrong-headed ones- and who holds most of the power?  The Man is usually white, as I already mentioned.  QED, it's The Man under siege, and he happens to be white, not the White Man under siege, and he happens to hold the most power.

It's complicated, all right.

Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Green1 on September 07, 2015, 07:26:58 PM
But, you know, ever feel like it is poured down our throat? I read a lot of anarchists stuff which a lot of folks don't see.

When I read the newspaper and someone murders someone, it is always "a black man killed a New Roads black man" or "a white Denham Springs man killed a Hammond Man". To me, I think the whole race of the victim or alleged criminal is irrelevant. It is like saying "A Blue eyed man killed a Brown eyed man". It would seem to me it would not matter. A life was ended.

The conspiracy theorist on me believes someone is pushing this on us. Making people like BLM crew and Stormfront.

Now, I suppose they have freedom of speech, but Morgan Freeman put it nicely. He said something to the order of he was a "man", not a black man and if we would stop bringing it up except as an identifying deal (ie: Look for the red haired white guy in the blue shirt.) and less as an identity (You are purple and you know all purple people have large... err nether regions) we would be much better off.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Green1 on September 07, 2015, 07:35:08 PM
But, more seriously. I think the guy in that post was more guilty of posting a bad reference to back up his point. Yes, it used DoJ stats, but what they don't realize is while racism and profiling is a problem, the majority of the reason poor folks are in jail is because of the prohibition of pot and other drugs. If you already have a record, how else are you going to afford rent when everyone background checks or drug tests even for the most humiliating of jobs?

It would be like me going off on women, making sweeping generalizations, and using a site like Return of Kings or The Red Pill as my reference that is accepted as legit.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 07, 2015, 07:51:26 PM
But, you know, ever feel like it is poured down our throat? I read a lot of anarchists stuff which a lot of folks don't see.

When I read the newspaper and someone murders someone, it is always "a black man killed a New Roads black man" or "a white Denham Springs man killed a Hammond Man". To me, I think the whole race of the victim or alleged criminal is irrelevant. It is like saying "A Blue eyed man killed a Brown eyed man". It would seem to me it would not matter. A life was ended.

The conspiracy theorist on me believes someone is pushing this on us. Making people like BLM crew and Stormfront.

Now, I suppose they have freedom of speech, but Morgan Freeman put it nicely. He said something to the order of he was a "man", not a black man and if we would stop bringing it up except as an identifying deal (ie: Look for the red haired white guy in the blue shirt.) and less as an identity (You are purple and you know all purple people have large... err nether regions) we would be much better off.
I always worry a little when I see my pal Green has posted in a sensitive conversation - but yes; exactly.

Easy Reader is different from you or I, but mostly due to being a Very Big Star for a long time - and we knew him a lot longer ago as Easy Reader, besides.



-I should add that I'm in a difficult ethical situation - I was recently accused of "liberal bullying" for calling a member on personally unfair behavior that had nothing to do with politics and everything to do with acting like a griefer.  I neither want to be the 'liberal bully' nor do I enjoy being pushed into giving orders.  I don't like not being able to persuade instead.

The simple rule would be "No Racism", and I think that's a line most reasonable people would be very comfortable with - but then you're confronted with just WERE the line should be. -- It gets my back up when someone can't do any better than to make with the Ann Coulter-talk, but I'm throwing a party for EVERYONE, and I'm not about to start disinviting people for being wrong.

Instead, I'm using the don't-poop-in-the-punch standard.  It's regrettably more nebulous, but a courtesy standard is a better, fairer standard.  Stirring people up can be good for a conversation -and the search for truth if it's done right- as Uno would be glad to confirm; taking a dump in the punch ruin the party for everyone (but a few sick freaks). ;nod

-So let's take the issues talk back to Rec Commons, unless it speaks directly to the Site Policy.  -And you have my blessing to talk to me about themes in the adjacent thread right here in Council Room. ;)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 07, 2015, 08:00:46 PM
But, more seriously. I think the guy in that post was more guilty of posting a bad reference to back up his point. Yes, it used DoJ stats, but what they don't realize is while racism and profiling is a problem, the majority of the reason poor folks are in jail is because of the prohibition of pot and other drugs. If you already have a record, how else are you going to afford rent when everyone background checks or drug tests even for the most humiliating of jobs?

It would be like me going off on women, making sweeping generalizations, and using a site like Return of Kings or The Red Pill as my reference that is accepted as legit.
AH!  Actual on-topic comment.

No, actually I didn't check the link in question until after I'd laid down the law.  I have a weak stomach for [lip begins to curl and quiver] right-wing ... truth-challenged slander.  The news is full of it for years and years, now, and I come here to be safe from that garbage-talk.

-I've seen people get six months off for less than a bald "Blacks commit more crimes than whites" at the end of a recent string of increasingly offensive posts.  If I've been talking to you for weeks about cooling it with whatever bad trip you're inflicting on the rest of us - it only takes a few feet of rope, but sometimes these problems solve themselves with gentle patience.  We've both failed if I have to start brandishing the hammer.

But I have it, and I know how to use it if you choose to test me enough.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Green1 on September 07, 2015, 10:10:07 PM
There is a such thing as "liberal bullying". I will give you an example. I am a voting, card carrying member of the Unitarian Universalist church. So liberal, it is a poster boy for liberal. For those unfamiliar, there are no "holy works", only 7 rules you go by. Christians are members, most are pagan or atheist. UU ceased to be a Christian denomination in the 1960s. UU is always up knee deep in any anti homophobe, anti racist, etc movements. Surprisingly, income inequity is not important enough to make that list.

BUT... such a liberal base attracts it's zealots. One SJW managed to get a reverend collar from New Orleans. Of course, she is too divisive to ever get her own congregation. I would not vote for her (we elect our leaders) but her sermons are filled with white privilege, tales of patriarchy, etc. She has to make the circuit as part of her post seminary work for free. The Unitarians may dig it because they love loathing themselves and placing minority groups up on a pedestal, but the more Universalist of us know better. When you give some group "special snowflake powers" just because of a gender, sexual orientation, race, or even handicap you create people who use it as an identity to lean on. Yes, there is injustice and I will work to end it starting with my own home. But, saying you need to be "protected" or have special rights because of the above only leads to perpetuating "victim mentality" and really is not about equality.

That said, if I see hateful folks I will be the first to educate them. But that does not give you a pass to to lay up on it.

Unfortunately, occasionally the liberals are the worst to call me up on it then can work to destroy you socially. That is liberal bullying and a lot of the time it can be for even questioning a tenent of that religion.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 07, 2015, 10:15:48 PM
:D That the political issue, not the site policy, again...

(I have a Unitarian in the family, and have heard a lot of this.  And yes, God knows liberal bullying is a thing and is hypocritical.)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 07, 2015, 10:24:03 PM
-In fact, to bring it back on topic, I've heard stories about Unitarian congregations facing the exact same dilemma; the point of the gathering is to be tolerant and inclusive, not to be liberal club (though it always ends up being that, too).  -And sometimes Unitarians are faced with someone whose beliefs are rather inimical to the point of the enterprise -believes in something like racism or kiddy sex that infringes on the rights of others- there's never an easy answer.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Green1 on September 07, 2015, 10:59:42 PM
-In fact, to bring it back on topic, I've heard stories about Unitarian congregations facing the exact same dilemma; the point of the gathering is to be tolerant and inclusive, not to be liberal club (though it always ends up being that, too).  -And sometimes Unitarians are faced with someone whose beliefs are rather inimical to the point of the enterprise -believes in something like racism or kiddy sex that infringes on the rights of others- there's never an easy answer.


Yeah. But sometimes the zealots get actual power.

But, it can be kept to a minimum with Socrates Cafe or UU Branches type rules that keep the BS (somewhat) under control.

- Freedom of Speech. Yes, that guy could do racist accusations. Even at UU (but, no one would probably want coffee or a beer with him). Even at Socrates Cafe. As long as such stuff is not just to troll just to pee folks off and cause the break up of the group. Spam (advertising and only being there to enrich yourself without adding anything) and very disruptive posts (AC2 is a home for neckbeard losers. blah, blah. Come to the cool kids at www.somesite.com/forums (http://www.somesite.com/forums). Or causing crap) is NOT freedom of speech.

- NO PERSONAL ATTACKS. Positions do not necessarily have to be respected. But attack the position, not the person.

Other than that, anything goes as long as folks arent overwhelming butthurt.

Unless the dude was PMing crap or your poster base was getting po'd or felt deeply offended and hurt. I would have debated him. Heavy handed techniques like that just has them go seethe in some crazy place to commiserate from "oppression" and  become even more staunch because he has proof of "being marginalized". The jokers there will reinforce beliefs. BUT, if shown holes logically, as long at it is not some religion at this point, beliefs can change slowly that way. Do you still hold the same belief as you had in your 20s? You (usually) wont have the same either in your 60s vs 40s.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 07, 2015, 11:16:11 PM
You've got room for growth in the area of organizing your thoughts and smooth transitions.  It makes it hard to respond in full.

We ARE a bunch of neckbeard losers.  So what?

It's tough to put a finger on, because few said much, but I rather pride myself on knowing my people - they're well-educated and they're drama-averse to the point of shyness in Rec Commons.  Faced with a young person expressing brutal opinions in a very simplistic (just plain simple, in fact) and blunt way --- I think it was seriously impacting traffic from some mature members who get that it's a complex world and express themselves in a sophisticated and stylish way.  Is anyone's life so infinite that it's worth making some other dude being wrong on the internet your problem?

In a classy room full of mature adults, the answer is no.  It's a hard lesson for us nerdz, but a bunch of the guys have worked it out for themselves - most of them seem to have earlier than I.

Some kids are cool, bring up the energy in the room, and are worth putting up with when callow enthusiasms get the better of them.  They'll learn, and are rather amusing while they do.  Some aren't going to learn though; I'm just not absolutely sure in this particular case which, but my doubts were increasing, and I was sure the price was getting too high.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Green1 on September 07, 2015, 11:54:02 PM
Agreed.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 07, 2015, 11:57:08 PM
Good.  I have to juggle a lot of different concerns, trying to find the best balance for all.

Now, go bump the themes thread for me, willya?
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 29, 2015, 09:06:45 PM
I have a problem that I don't know how to frame as legitimate site policy, but I need to put it out there as a reality in play.

I am not a morning person.  I do not wake up alert and chipper and hard to annoy.

This forum is a better place for everyone if I don't log on in the morning to any PMs at all, or obnoxious, problematic posts.  I sincerely ask everyone, for their own good as well as my own, not to present me with people management issues or questionable behavior before I've been on for about an hour and gotten a coffee polished off.

I recognize that mostly, you don't know how long I've been awake unless you were on when I came onsite in the morning, but PLEASE act like I'm a morning grouch whose day you'd rather not ruin -or FEAR ruining, if it comes to that- and don't pull ANYthing while I'm not on at night.  Seriously; I'm asking people to work with me on a problem I can't help - and failure to respect that boundary adds to your sins crimes when you are bad overnight.  -And I will henceforth count 'bad overnight' in my deliberations, because it's got to stop.

So be bad when I'm wide awake, and you'll find me a lot more reasonable.  Please do not mistake me delaying action first thing while I know I'm not very rational for forbearance.

...You may be guessing that this has been a problem before more than once, and again just today; if so, you surmise correctly...
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Vidsek on September 30, 2015, 05:57:45 AM
Vidsek <-------  Nocturnal. 

Mornings are for sleeping.  Then coffee.   Then thinking.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Valka on September 30, 2015, 06:06:31 AM
BUncle, what time zone are you in? Otherwise, we won't know when it's your morning.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Mart on September 30, 2015, 03:25:30 PM
I am kinda opposite. Sometimes I stay awake longer, and when I'm tired I know, I have less patience. My last job required tons of patience, luckily I'm done with it... :)

Anyway, my point is, there is some solution to these things. I happen to wake up tired. It is connected to quality of sleep, as I've read and noticed. Complex stuff, beginning from good day-night cycle, stable sleep hours, enough oxygen and little CO2, yes. Sleeping in a room without good air circulation can increase CO2 significantly. We do not get good rest then. Sleeping with open window has its drawbacks, but I do it as often as I can. Much can be said about it. Sometimes valerian extract helps to fall asleep, when I'm awake too long. But half a glass of red wine is good too.

Recently I had a conversation with a lady in grocery market. She was 71 and still working, actually walking most of her work hours. She was selling in that market. She told me, she had a heart stroke, cause she was drinking red wine. I said "Red wine is healthy." And she answered "Yes, but not in quantities I was drinking..." Anyway, I would never say, that someone 71 years old after a heart stroke can work like that. That was impressive. I wonder, how much that red wine was responsible for that stamina of hers.

I think we were talking about some of the above in some other thread. Do we want to continue this topic here?
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 30, 2015, 05:01:55 PM
North American Eastern Time for me - and we probably ought to take it to Rec Commons, yes.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 30, 2015, 08:12:30 PM
And important point to keep in mind - I got an unplanned very late start today, and didn't feel up to answering a couple of straightforward questions waiting for me for over an hour after I came on...
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Valka on October 01, 2015, 12:49:28 AM
The only times when I get impatient for answers is when they're time-sensitive.

BUncle, unless someone's question is urgent, you don't have to answer right away. We're all in different time zones, and some of us have odd schedules. So in most cases, it probably won't matter a bit if you don't answer or even read it until your afternoon.

One thing I discovered with Iron Pen is that just trying to keep three time zones in mind can be a challenge. I don't want the authors to miss the first 8 hours of the contest because they were sleeping or at work/school, so that's why it's started at odd times... for people on this continent. For the people involved in the contest, it was as close to early evening as I could make it.

Not everyone here is going to be able to calculate when it's morning for you, or know when you get up and are ready to deal with things, and of course we don't expect you to keep track of all of our time zones and schedules. It's a bit unreasonable to expect that.  ;) My suggestion is just to make the decision to postpone dealing with whatever the issue may be until after your morning. Chances are that most things aren't deal-with-it-NOW urgent anyway.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 01, 2015, 01:04:18 AM
It's very hard on me, though, to have anything hanging over my head first thing - I can't NOT think about it just because I know I'm not thinking well yet.  Very bad way to start my day, and not a good deal for anyone.  No easy answer to that problem.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Green1 on October 05, 2015, 09:01:34 PM
I have a problem that I don't know how to frame as legitimate site policy, but I need to put it out there as a reality in play.

I am not a morning person.  I do not wake up alert and chipper and hard to annoy.

This forum is a better place for everyone if I don't log on in the morning to any PMs at all, or obnoxious, problematic posts.  I sincerely ask everyone, for their own good as well as my own, not to present me with people management issues or questionable behavior before I've been on for about an hour and gotten a coffee polished off.

I recognize that mostly, you don't know how long I've been awake unless you were on when I came onsite in the morning, but PLEASE act like I'm a morning grouch whose day you'd rather not ruin -or FEAR ruining, if it comes to that- and don't pull ANYthing while I'm not on at night.  Seriously; I'm asking people to work with me on a problem I can't help - and failure to respect that boundary adds to your sins crimes when you are bad overnight.  -And I will henceforth count 'bad overnight' in my deliberations, because it's got to stop.

So be bad when I'm wide awake, and you'll find me a lot more reasonable.  Please do not mistake me delaying action first thing while I know I'm not very rational for forbearance.

...You may be guessing that this has been a problem before more than once, and again just today; if so, you surmise correctly...

Unless there is stuff going on behind the scenes, I never see any posts or stuff that are problematic. Nor do you have a horde of insane idiots like a lot of other forums get. But, then again, I am not as easily offended as some folks get online.

Now, you get a lot more posters, yeah. But most of those forums have mod teams. It would not be on you. You would just be a dude behind a curtain using beard powers to resolve disputes with moderation and flora placement.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on October 05, 2015, 09:20:41 PM
-Problematic is relative.  You have seen some of it.  A lot looks different when you're in charge and worrying about the long-term and trying to balance a lot of complex factors w/ only hard work and beard powers you need to apply gently.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 21, 2016, 10:47:10 PM
Like some other policy announcements I've made in this thread, this is something that's sorta always been in my head, but not worked out completely, so only fair if I put it out there in public, so's nobody can claim it's secret rule.

We're a community, and we have a style.

This is all really covered by what I said long ago in Building a Community: act like an adult.

We're nerds, right?  Poor (/weak/no) social skills being one of the defining traits - or else we'd be cool regular people who happen to like gaming and SF, like we'd rather imagine.  But we're nerds in a nerd community, and that means we have to be patient and tolerant with/of each other and make allowances.  Most of us mean well.  Period.

But I have to ask everyone - pay a little attention to the room you're in, to the atmosphere, the general style of the members and posts.  Be different, sure -AC2 is diverse and cherishes diversity as interesting and edumacationable- but try to not make your difference anyone else's problem.  Be well-intentioned and try, and you'll get a lot of rope while I try to work with you.

-Obviously, I've still not gotten this crystalized enough in mah haid and need to at least sleep on it and try to articulate more precisely and clearly in the future.

It's part of a larger policy principal I call Serial Vexatious Poster; if you're managing to annoy enough people enough of the time, the management reserves the right to take action w/o need of other specific rule violation.  You have to be bad overall for the health/happiness community in our opinion, which is a mighty high bar of irritating-ness to hurdle.  Not to worry; I would never resort to this one in any situation where the offender does not know (s)he is in the doghouse far in advance.  It's really not much more than a catchall to help that much with shutting up &^%$#@! rules lawyers.

-So, if you're only sometimes Vexatious, you're in good company, and have nothing to worry about...
Well, it's finally happened, and I had to apply this rule.

I'm not happy about it -I would have been in serious danger of such a rule when I was a newb, deservedly so- but some people have enough sense to avoid breaking any obvious rule in any obvious way, but not enough sense to adjust to the forum culture where they are and stop being a constant problem.  It was bound to happen here, but that's scant comfort.

Sometimes, it's possible for everyone to have decent intentions, but the differences are irreconcilable and impossible to ignore.  I just HATE having to be the one pulling the trigger...
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 25, 2016, 11:12:26 PM
A word about trolling -

It is possible to, in all innocence, offend one or many members without meaning to, and our policy here is to not overreact - trolling is partly a matter of intention, after all, and none of us are mind-readers.  (However, I, personally, was once a 13 year-old boy far too fond of merciless teasing IRL, and I fancy I know a lot of the tricks.)

However, once a certain behavior has proved provocative many times and shows no sign of abating, it can come to a point that intent no longer matters.  You (rhetorical you) knew you were griefing and didn't stop.  Then it can become trolling without meaning to.  Persons persisting in this categorical error will be dealt with accordingly.

(P.S.  Style counts.  You can get away with a great deal more if you are wise in your choice of victims [friends who can take it, mostly, not intense or outrageous enough to upset bystanders not in on the joke] and/or entertaining in execution.  We're here to entertain each other -and be entertained- after all.)
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 22, 2016, 02:26:06 AM
[shakes head, sadly]  The things you wouldn't think it was necessary to make rules against...

Hacking the forum/the accounts of others, or at least the attempt to do so, is a death-penalty offense.  We have IP logs of pretty much everything odd that happens, and no sense of humor about that crap.

;no
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on August 26, 2017, 09:15:44 PM
A word about what is and isn't spam -

If you're One Of Us, a member of this community known to the others to be an actual person and here in the first place for the reason this forum was created and is kept alive --- pimp yo' project, even if you hope to make actual cash money, as nasty as you wanna be, provided you don't annoy somehow.  If you're a people, I'm very tolerant of that sort of thing.

-If, on the other hand, you sign up with a sig link before you ever post?  IMO, you're not people, I don't care what the site is, much, and you've crapped yourself right out of the gate and you're not people and have no rights.
 ;modban


...I just had to change the security question because of a very persistent bot, and this post is more for the entertainment of real members than anything else - but I seriously wanted to announce Official Policy that 'people' are very welcome to promote their own projects and use AC2 for publicity, commercial or whatever, provided it's not annoying, annoying to be determined by The Management - just pay your dues getting involved in the conversations first, and we'll be jake. ;nod
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2018, 07:39:45 PM
What follows that I saw last week I find influential on issues I wrestle with here.

Quote from: Cutlass
My moderating style, and I really do have a substantial amount of forum moderating experience, is to generally be inclusive, and warn as necessary. But when someone is really getting on other people's nerves to the point where the good people may leave because of the bad people, just ban the bad people and be done with it. I find that it doesn't work to have a very formal set of rules and a very formal rules process. An internet forum is, at the end of the day, a hobby. If people are not enjoying themselves, they'll just not go to the place any longer. I won't tolerate racism, sexism, or general nastiness. If you think the alt-right is defensible, this is not the place for you. Go elsewhere.
I will go on from that to say it's not quite my take, and not going to be - but, and I speak as someone who found he had a very leftist OT going in 2012, and has actively recruited thoughtful conservatives in the years since, it's certainly somewhat close.  I have the profound egalitarian and free-speech impulses a North American should, and I've posted in this very thread repeatedly trying to come to grips with --- the end of the above helps me crystalize my thinking at a maybe better angle.  I don't do anything much to encourage people whose politics I agree with if I find their mode of expression and level of thoughtfulness poor.  If you, short of the beyond-the-pale stuff Cutlass concludes with, got nothin' better than Reagan-worship and party talking points, and aren't any fun and/or I stiffen when I see you posting - we can get unreflected right "thinking" anywhere, to the point it's a pain all over the nets.

I don't deem that acting like an adult, and I am not obligated to tolerate it being inflicted on my friends or myself in my own house, and I regret it having to be that way, but have an interesting perspective/be fun/something, or it's five minutes to sundown for you at AC2.  Period.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: BU Admin on March 16, 2018, 03:53:01 PM
Good morning, my friends.

The management has been inexcusably remiss in not publishing a policy that has been here from the beginning; we like to make public and explicit this kind of thing here in the spirit of fair play, good management, and so no one can ever claim it was a secret rule.

We came here from a forum that had a loudly-announced 'clean slate' policy -an excellent attitude, BTW- you had to earn whatever treatment got got with your behavior there on that site.  Well, the owner, a fellow with admirable egalitarian instincts, eventually felt it necessary to perma a problematic member in fallout of a troll raid he stayed out of, but said an idjit thing on Counterglow claiming he was trolling.  Bit the owner on the butt a little for years until he graciously undid the ban in a peace gesture.

AC2 has never had any such policy.  We find it difficult to imagine the need -or at least ethical right- to tell anyone what to do anywhere but here (officially; advice as a friend is different), or punish anyone for actions elsewhere, but nobody known to the management comes in with any clean slate - and actions elsewhere can and definitely will be taken into account and calculation of our reaction to, and handling of, your behavior right here onsite, because of what all your known history tells about you.

We regret that it has simply never occurred to us to share this important policy before.  People-management on the internet is endlessly complex.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 17, 2018, 03:45:07 AM
Hmm.  Two other things - it is my management habit to act or not within 24 hours, and I've always let whatever sanctions stand, even when sisko and t_ras later told me I'd been wildly too merciful - this actually happened once.  I find revisiting crimes unpunished long after the fact distasteful; however, in extremis, the Management reserves the right to go there, when in its sole opinion such action is for the greater good of the forum and the community.  (You haveta mess up mighty bad for this to ever come up, no worries.)

The other matter being simply to make it known that there a net tradition in even pretty free communities that sometimes cooling-off-period bans are properly issued to put a stop to something going somewhere bad, or already there, not as punishment, maybe for the good of the soul getting hammered, definitely for the greater good.  I've only ever done this twice in the last six years and change - but in bad situations where a poster's habits and schedule indicate that I'm likely to wake up to nasty stuff; oh, I'm definitely thinking in those rare bad situations, I'll do more overnight bans in the future.  If momma ain't happy, nobody happy.  (You haveta mess up mighty bad for this to ever come up, no worries.)


I spend a lot of time thinking about these sorts of issues, the practical and ethical aspects both being something I can't do my job here right without considering, and doing so often and at length...
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 27, 2018, 03:28:25 AM
$#@! The webs ate a couple lines of the first try at this, no kiddin'.

Have I ever talked about triggering the swear filter here?  (NOT whether we should have one, which in my house you're not going to act in a way that I would be made ashamed if my actual mother were to actually read your post - fortunately I'm a bit shameless so, keep it down to a dull roar, but that policy is not going anywhere.)  Some strictly-run sites will gig you infraction points for triggering at all according to the rules and you had bad luck with who's the moderator.

Well, [fuddle-duddle] that [poop] at AC2!  -Incidentally, if you have the swear filter turned off for your account, you're wondering why I'm contradicting myself instead of getting to laugh at my comedy - more on why you may turn off the filter but it's a bad idea in a moment.

TRIGGER and laugh.  Have yourself a party in our fun and zany forum, as -literally- [intercourse gerund] nasty as you wanna be, [loves your mother].
 :danc: :danc: :danc: :danc: :danc: :danc: :danc:
This is not a [profoundly mess with mind; Uno].  ;no  -But there's an important proviso.  As I've been saying forever, our swear filter sucks; it's incredibly easy to bypass by accident or on purpose, and here's the rule part that matters:  Buncle expects you to actually look at what you post if you swore any, and fix if anything that should have triggered didn't.  Yr Most Humble Benevolent Dictator get less Benevolent when ruling you so hard requires he has to edit and clean up. 

Clean up your own mess, please.  The list is mostly racial and ethnic slurs and workaround attempts at same.  (Legit to count all that as toxic swearing in my book, BTW.)  The actual cussing list is not that long, and mostly toxic obvious stuff - if [feminine washing] gets by, I won't bother, dunno why anyone bothered with something marginal/only so vulgar like that that they can say on US TV at night.  I also don't know why [gives oral sex to men] isn't in there; I typed in that translation manually, and fear not that you may use it and not feel the blazing fury of my wrath.

SO - if you use a word here and there that you'd expect to be in a filter, and you have the filter turned off for your display, you can't spot when the filter phails and this makes Buncle unhappy when you mar my house and don't clean your own mess.  Please watch out for that.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Syn on March 27, 2018, 03:54:29 AM
I assume this PSA is because someone was naughty?
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 27, 2018, 04:03:33 AM
Actually no.

I've never had a single problem with pushback like pushing the envelope or limits on purpose unless the member was personally angry at ME, which is a little different (and does happen and is totally the worse part of my job).  No, just, it happens like I said, by accident once in a while, and I REALLY dislike having to edit other people's posts and want them to spot and fix themselves.

That there's a GROWNUP rule, nothing like you ever had to enforce at the Camp.

-So, I thought for no particular immediate reason that it would be good to throw that up instead of just lecturing or stewing when someone vulks up and misses a filter phail.  Much of what I put up in this thread is triggered by an immediate reminder, yes, but very much of it has been my policy for years and I do try to play fair when I finally remember to share.

-Also, I reckoned that doing it that way would be funny.  For th' lulz is good enough for me.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 27, 2018, 05:43:03 AM
-Speaking of which, comedy is unusually in order at AC2.

Just, be smart about where and when and to/about whom, and respect the express wishes of the thread-starter -who has the right to ask ME to stifle- and be considerate trying to guess that person's tastes/reaction.  Otherwise a larf is welcome. 

Try not to be a killjoy, please, about one or two joke posts in your thread, or earn my contempt stomping into silly threads you don't think are funny.  You don't want to get punished for what a couple buttholes did to me years ago, so never be like them.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: BU Admin on April 03, 2018, 07:30:55 AM
The Management gets quite weary of having to formulate and publish policy on account of rare bad apples and troublemakers, an absolutely minuscule portion of the traffic and membership.  We will work with anyone we perceive to be ultimately good-intentioned and interested in being here to take part in this community, using the forum the way it was meant to be used - or at least not griefing anyone else's fun with an innovation.  This is our pledge to the members, that we're here to hook you up and make everybody as happy as possible, and none of that works without fairness, and for fairness we strive.

HowEVER - new rule, and AC2's management profoundly resents the necessity; if it appears that you're in our house out of simple malice, well, you're gone.  That definitely includes hate-lurking.  You'll have to do your little investigations logged out, because life's too short to put up with that, and we're not prepared to be relaxed about it.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Syn on April 03, 2018, 04:02:06 PM
What is "hate-lurking"?
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 03, 2018, 04:45:07 PM
Really?  It ranges from checking up on someone you've got a beef with because knowledge is power and all that - to actual stalking, which I have online experience with, and not on the supply side.

HATE having to come up with any catch-all troublemaker rule, but this ain't the first time I've had to.  Real members, of course, are welcome to question and comment and get a vote in forming policy in what I hope is their online home, here - but need not trouble themselves that this sort of thing will ever bite them if I don't perceive long-term implacable malice.

This one simply doesn't apply to a real member who gets mad at me and comes at me hard -as sometimes happens- unless I perceive they're lost to us forever anyway, as someone just participating, and yet are still coming around.

I hope that makes sense.  It is based on actual long experience of some of the more extreme drama that happens, and all will be happier if I step on teh dedicated haters and keep that stalky crap out of here when I can.
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Syn on April 03, 2018, 05:02:36 PM
I guess I don't see the point behind banning guests because you see the same IPs come up frequently. There are browsers that have built-in VPNs (like Opera) which negates the effectiveness of this, along with browser extensions, VPN sites, and dedicated VPN services.

I likely have a far different perspective on this than most, though...
Title: Re: Let's work out some official rules for this forum.
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 03, 2018, 05:43:27 PM
Well, I can't do anything about lurking logged out -though I went to some trouble making sure of all recent IPs in my latest ban, which should short-term help- and I'd rationally like to be able to watch it happening if anyone's dumb enough to do it logged in, but reason isn't the whole story and sometimes knowledge is too corrosive/toxic to inner peace to be worth it...