Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Rusty Edge on March 11, 2020, 12:25:33 AM

Title: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 11, 2020, 12:25:33 AM
Hopefully we can steer this away from politics, at least to the extent that the complaints are about various levels of gov. foreign and domestic, rather than the American president and his party. There's still a lot of disease territory left for discussion.

I've always been interested in major disease outbreaks, whether it was my grandfather losing half of his siblings when he was a kid, tales/memories of polio and the vaccine, being a hog farmer, reading about herpes, AIDS, West Nile, and Zika. Yeah, after West Nile traversed New York state upwind the first summer, and Zika came along which had both mosquito and human sexual transmission I was expecting a pandemic. It's a century since the Spanish Flu, we're due.

I should confess that I have respiratory issues. I have genetically  original lungs, while 98% of the surviving population has a mutation that toughens the tissue, so I have had spontaneously collapsed lungs a couple of times. Wait, there's more. I'm allergic to both penicillin and sulfa classes of antibiotics, so there's fewer options to treat me fore pneumonia. Also, I have something called cough synchope. That's a nerve malfunction regarding constriction of the carotid regulating blood pressure to the brain. It means that when I cough very much, I faint and go into convulsions. For that matter, when my dad died of cancer, he drowned in his own fluids. So I'd really rather not get sick, and I can relate to strangers suffering and dying from respiratory issues, and the suffering it causes those who care about them.

To create a famine, you need to combine nature ( drought ) and human nature ( war). The Spanish Flu pandemic combined the disease with the global mobilization of the first World War. This time we seem to be combining a disease and some governments in denial.

So I understand that we can't have a pandemic thread without frequent gov references.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 11, 2020, 01:16:16 AM
I wonder.  Honestly, the only reason I've been taking the latest virus outta China seriously is because of a certain notorious liar saying not to.  I only exaggerate slightly to say it does this every year, like the weatherman on TV ginning up tornado panic every time there's a thunderstorm in the viewing area.  Someday, all the crying wolf is gonna be the death of me because I stopped believing anything and the disaster threat was real.

That point raised, colleges are shutting down, right left and center, and both Sanders and Biden earlier called off rallies in Detroit tonight that would have started a few minutes ago.  There's a real thing going on, regardless.

As for me personally, I rarely set foot out of the house anyway, and Spring allergy season, when I need to wash my hands and face several times a day, would have set in by the end of the month anyway.  I hope nobody tracks in 19 crows here, but Mom's a 65-sort of going-on-80 and I'm not worried about Mylochka and I doing worse than having a bad week at all.

It IS tough to leave politics out of it.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 11, 2020, 05:52:56 AM
Yeah, I'm not worried about you, you hermit. Did I ever tell you that's what I wanted to be when I grew up?

The following isn't meant to be argumentative. More explanatory.

To me this is exactly like a vaccine discussion.  Nobody gets ( polio/measles/chicken pox/whatever) any more, why worry? The reason nobody gets it is because most people take simple precautions. Sometimes simple precautions take the form of a vaccine, sometimes it's more about common sense anti-viral measures. As long as that holds true, we're good. When a critical mass goes into denial and don't do those things, people suffer and die. IF it turns out to be overblown, it's because overreacting quickly is the way to beat a disease, because they spread faster or farther than you thought. It's because simple precautions and containment worked.

I sure hope it does turn out to be overblown. I'm worried about these church people who continue with the greetings/common cup communion/healing hands. I'm worried about more nursing homes being wiped out. My dad is in one, and my mother visits him 6 days a week in drivable weather. My MiL is in one too, and she has lung issues.

IF we had accurate information, we might know what the death rate is. It might be 19 times more lethal than flu. It might be around 40. It's complicated because it's already mutated into two strains, and the mortality and infectiousness hasn't been sorted out. I'm sure that both infections and deaths are under reported. In between the infection rate and the mortality is the hospitalization rate, and we're not talking about that. People can look at something and figure they won't be the ones to die, so why worry? I think they should be more concerned about their chances of going on a ventilator, but that's just me.

I've got more to do before bed. I hope to get to various governments tomorrow.

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 11, 2020, 05:57:48 AM
On a lighter note-

https://twitter.com/jenmercieca/status/1237537814075412481  Here's a discussion of switching Corona and Corvid 19 in the songs "My Sharona" and "Come on Eileen"
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 11, 2020, 02:15:24 PM
I note that Italy is currently closed for everything, which strongly tends to rule out wolf-crying...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: ColdWizard on March 11, 2020, 05:08:02 PM
I was tracking official WHO cases for South Korea, Italy, and Iran for a while before my trip to Venice was cancelled. Nice steep curves were starting for Italy and Iran.

I find the Australia/US panic runs on toilet paper to be baffling. Also not real sure about the bottled water either. If it gets into the public water, I assume we're all flipped anyway. If not, tap water should be as fine as ever.  :dunno:   I got a little canned food and whatnot.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Raaf on March 11, 2020, 08:09:16 PM
Today the first two diagnosed cases turned up in my province and city, Groningen, the Netherlands. We were the last province free from it, but I expected it to arrive anyway, yesterday evening I declined a diner invitation down town from my grand-daughter, because, I wouldn't feel comfortable spending hours with strangers in a closed room.

One of the cases is a 21 year old student who returned from Italy two weeks ago, the other is an older woman in the rural part of the province, and nobody knows how she contracted the virus.

I think Merkel is right, and in the end the majority of people will get exposed to the virus.

So me being careful to avoid it, is really just trying to flee the unavoidable. I am 64 and reasonably healthy, and the odds are not too bad, but not still not neglectable.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 12, 2020, 12:15:35 AM
I note that Italy is currently closed for everything, which strongly tends to rule out wolf-crying...

Yeah, the day they had 145 deaths and forbid funerals, I figured it was on.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 12, 2020, 03:00:15 AM
Well, the president made a national address to announce that it's actually a pandemic, rather than a hoax.  So it's official.

Also, the NCCAA tournament will have no audiences in the stands.
Travel between Europe and the USA is suspended.
The NBA is suspending the season.

Oh, and nursing homes should be quarantined.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 12, 2020, 03:03:46 AM
Also, Tom Hanks and his wife have it, and they are in Australia, where it is still technically summer. That doesn't support the theory that this will go away when summer arrives.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 12, 2020, 07:24:25 PM
More sports have followed suit, whether out of concern for lawsuits or personal safety, I don't know.
Baseball spring training is expected to be canceled and the pro baseball season delayed.
NHL hockey has been suspended until further notice, following the NBA's lead. Many teams share facilities.
The PGA will play, but without audiences.
NASCAR sounds like it will race without audiences, but some cities are simply postponing events.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 12, 2020, 07:26:37 PM
The Supreme Court, Las Vegas shows, Broadway...


P.S.  Virtually impossible to discuss in any depth whatsoever w/o politics.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 12, 2020, 07:35:28 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/first-china-then-italy-what-the-us-can-learn-from-extreme-coronavirus-lockdowns/2020/03/11/1cfaa07c-630e-11ea-912d-d98032ec8e25_story.html

I subscribe to the Washington Post ( to piss off a particular politician ), so that may be reflected in my choice of news sources.

Anyway, this article says that the winning strategies include testing, transparency, quickly isolating sick or suspected patients, limiting public gatherings, and suspending public transport.

On the other hand, mandatory gov lockdowns tend to cause people to panic, hop in their cars and spread the infections.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 12, 2020, 07:47:36 PM
The Supreme Court, Las Vegas shows, Broadway...


P.S.  Virtually impossible to discuss in any depth whatsoever w/o politics.

I know. But I have reluctantly abandoned a couple of forums that I truly enjoyed simply because  every thread became a political battlefield between regulars who disagreed and became angrier.  I don't want to see that here, too.

My wife tells me to add Princess Cruises to the suspension list.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 12, 2020, 08:03:00 PM
For what it's worth-
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

Dividing the total deaths by the total cases, I calculate the current rolling mortality rate @ 3.7%
Of course, the info is only as honest as the govs. concerned.

The global closed case mortality is 7%
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 12, 2020, 08:15:54 PM
I have reluctantly abandoned a couple of forums that I truly enjoyed simply because  every thread became a political battlefield between regulars who disagreed and became angrier.  I don't want to see that here, too.
[sighs] Yeah.

Well, you know pretty well how my position on arguing has evolved over the years, that much as I love a good one, they're really rare to come by, and that civil conversations between people who disagree are better.  Nerds just don't handle competition in a measured way, by nature.  I will make the distinction that I think I discouraged arguing too strongly when I started out, here - argue, sure, if both parties can handle it - but fighting?  Not on my nickel.

Plus, the OP asked for minimal politics, and the OP is within his rights, per Official Site Policy.


-However, it IS a political subject, through fault of no one present...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 12, 2020, 10:51:13 PM
Okay, my country just more or less got in quarantaine.

Schools are closed for lessons, except for day-care (to ensure grandparents don't have grandchildren with them), all public venues save foodstores and pharmacists are closed during weekends. Other shops may be open during workdays.
And all that at least until Easter vacation starts in 3 weeks.

For me, since I work in (food) distribution, no teleworking is possible. As long as I'm not infected, I got to go...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on March 13, 2020, 03:38:09 AM
Whelp. 

hEt may have been exposed. 

Which means we all may have. 

With the boss working at the hospital, it's not exactly a shock.  The level of absolute disregard needed if it proves true is a little staggering, as someone on travel went to visit the NICU and is now showing symptoms, but there you go. 

Utah is a pretty big psychotic mess right now as a whole. 

The church has shut down.  Period.  General conference coming up is going to be interesting.  The right words from the leaders there could burn this place down barring some drastic turn for the better between now and then. 

Water, TP, any kind of soap, and pasta are all pretty much out at the store...but it also feels a bit manufactured as you can get it at times. 

My work is trying to figure out whether to close doors or not.  I suspect school will shut down within a week with most universities already closing. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 13, 2020, 03:52:28 AM
I thought Mormons stockpiled food, both in their homes, and at distribution centers. I would have thought Utah would be the last state to have such issues.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on March 13, 2020, 03:55:48 AM
Well, they are TOLD to, but not everyone DOES, so when something scary happens, they all rush to be able to say they were prepared. 


And the storehouses aren't what you think they are anymore.  In the 80s it was actual stockpiles food, it's transitioned to far more of a bank account. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 13, 2020, 03:22:32 PM
Your family will be in my prayers, Uno.

On the anecdotal front my mother got kicked out of my dad's nursing home at 4:30 yesterday due to the PA governor's lockdown order. Here in WI my MiL's home went from one entrance yesterday to lockdown today.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on March 13, 2020, 10:42:34 PM
hEt's potential case come back negative, so that's a load off. 

As expected schools are now shut down for 2 weeks.  Making it effectively 3 for my kids as that runs into spring break. 

This means, effectively, the only ones we need to worry about bringing this home now are hEt, myself, and Kyle.  I might be altered work schedule as well, but full work from home is not likely to be possible. 

I was raised in a family where we were very nearly self-sufficient.  We hunted for most our meat, and grew the rest.  That level of storage never really has left my habits.  I'd hit up the annual case lot sales last week, just because it was the annual time to do it, and can feed us for 30 days comfortably, 60 with a little thought, and 90 if I need to ration.  I mean, we'll run out of milk and eggs fairly quick, but we'll be able to eat. 

I was out today getting formula for some in the neighborhood that couldn't leave with their babies, and it was something akin to black friday levels of crazy.  This weekend is going to be utter madness.  We'll hunker down. 

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 14, 2020, 03:14:22 AM
I didn't notice with all of the national news, but there's already a confirmed case in my county and more in the city proper. I thought there was more time/breathing room.

I'd been to COSTCO to get stuff first Monday of the month, spent about twice the usual, just in case. It was busier than expected, but no big deal. We were out for a birthday lunch and decided to stop by COSTCO on the way home to get a few things. The parking lot was like Christmas season, with "buzzards" circling. They had plenty of water, but it was rationed. They were out of paper products and hand soap.

We've got a full pantry and two full freezers. Usually do. But then we usually end up covering family shortages of cold medicine, Kleenex and food. So that's the wild card.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 14, 2020, 04:41:34 PM
The Rev. Dr. Buster's Daddy called mid-morning seeking Mom's counsel on closing church services.  He's probably gonna do it.  No word on how this effects the charity food bank his church runs.  That may be needed more than ever.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 14, 2020, 06:52:34 PM
Just came back from a grocery trip
My fellow countrymen really take their visit to the little room serious. All toiletpaper and napkins are gone in supermarkets. ;lol
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on March 14, 2020, 06:53:30 PM
Don't suppose he could do virtual services somehow?  I mean a webcam is fairly cheap...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 14, 2020, 06:56:50 PM
It's a small, old congregation.  His first idea was livestreaming, but there's almost certainly too many who don't even email.

He's probably going to record on CD, and bear down on the home visitations as delivery, w/ it doubling as checking on the most at-risk and alone...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 14, 2020, 10:38:37 PM
Just came back from a grocery trip
My fellow countrymen really take their visit to the little room serious. All toiletpaper and napkins are gone in supermarkets. ;lol

It's the same here. Facial tissue, too. Reports are that it's worse today.

To be fair people use toilet paper wherever they are. If they aren't at work, college, on an airplane, in a restaurant, hotel, or in school, and are home instead they will need to buy more instead of getting it as a courtesy. They are just overdoing it. Toilet paper that normally goes to those places will be diverted, but they buy in larger packages.  Things will balance out in time.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 15, 2020, 12:41:18 AM
Well, a psychologist explains that hording toilet paper is a human attempt to assert some control over a situation in which they feel vulnerable and helpless. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 15, 2020, 01:20:08 AM
The Governor has shut down NC schools for two weeks...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on March 15, 2020, 05:02:06 AM
First communal spread case confirmed here.  Well south of us but still. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on March 15, 2020, 02:34:12 PM
It's a small, old congregation.  His first idea was livestreaming, but there's almost certainly too many who don't even email.

He's probably going to record on CD, and bear down on the home visitations as delivery, w/ it doubling as checking on the most at-risk and alone...

Might not hurt to do as much online as possible though.  I know a lot of companies here are offering free internet till summer now, and even if it only helped organize the relief efforts could be worth it. 

I'd be willing to offer up the back end password and let them organize via my page if it helps at all. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 15, 2020, 02:51:36 PM
Mylochka is webmaster of the church's website, and they were going to do at least an audio/video as a matter of it's Monday.

I suggested adding YouTube, but that would involve the little SOB listening to me about anything, not least marketing issues.  He got issues all right.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 15, 2020, 03:26:09 PM
To be fair people use toilet paper wherever they are. If they aren't at work, college, on an airplane, in a restaurant, hotel, or in school, and are home instead they will need to buy more instead of getting it as a courtesy. They are just overdoing it. Toilet paper that normally goes to those places will be diverted, but they buy in larger packages.  Things will balance out in time.

I now wonder if we're going to see more internal theft checks at my workplace's exits to check if people don't take facial tissue or toilet paper from the lavatories home with them.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 15, 2020, 07:11:17 PM
Mylochka is webmaster of the church's website, and they were going to do at least an audio/video as a matter of it's Monday.

I suggested adding YouTube, but that would involve the little SOB listening to me about anything, not least marketing issues.  He got issues all right.
Related side-note; I shared last week's sermon w/ Uno on Facebook as soon as I posted this, and the cadence is entirely different, but that there's my voice to the extent we used to impersonate each other on the phone to people who knew both of us.  So for those curious: https://www.pleasantviewchurchmorganton.com/copy-of-2018-sermons?wix-music-comp-id=comp-k7p51wf5&wix-music-track-id=6714964603568128
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Elok on March 16, 2020, 01:17:21 PM
Brief pause of Lenten fast: glad to hear you're all hunkering down.  My impression is that this is going to get Italy levels of bad in at least some parts of the country.  As an RT student, I don't know what's going to happen to me; two of my three instructors are practicing RTs and will probably be wanted to handle an overwhelming caseload in a few weeks.  This week is spring break, and the college president says the word is to stay the course, for now.  There's talk of online classes, but I think that's hooey, and at any rate the important parts of instruction have to be done in-person.  I think it's more likely that, if hospitals get badly overcrowded, my classmates and I will simply get drafted, and the details will get worked out after the fact.
Stay safe!
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 16, 2020, 03:45:41 PM
Stay safe!

You too!
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 16, 2020, 03:51:58 PM
Elok tells me re: home care, not to go to the cough medicine too quick; you cough for a reason.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 16, 2020, 03:59:43 PM
The doctor just put me two days at home.
No, not for a viral infection, but a tennis elbow.

They were definitely quick to separate feverish/coughy people from the others in the waiting room. Those are sent on to a separate waiting room. And all  personnel was masked.
I didn't even have to pay! The doctor considered it an extension of my visit 2 weeks ago.

Stricktly speaking he should have sent me on to hospital for a scan of my elbow first, but you can imagine it could take a month or two before they have time for such a minor problem.
So my physiotherapist and me are going to see one another quite a bit more the next couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 16, 2020, 07:37:55 PM
On the anecdotal front-

Last week my wife, fearing restrictions, had advanced her birthday dining reservations to tonight. This afternoon they called to tell us they are closing. So, I'll make her steaks at home on her birthday later this week.

We were low on a few things, but decided to wait until after the weekend had passed to reduce pressure on the stores and avoid crowds. Also, some family members are homebound with influenza A and needed some stuff like Gatorade and soup.  So we ran errands today. We have a business membership at SAM's, so we went early this morning. No crowds, but we were dodging cleaners and stockers. They had rationed paper products, maybe water too. Some things like the laundry detergent I use were out of stock. Don't think they had hand sanitizer, but we weren't looking for that.  Thing is that today was the last day of early hours for the premium membership. They are going to an intermediate opening hour for everybody. That should give them more time to restock.

Drove by COSTCO and they still look like Christmas traffic.
Went to the local mega-super market. The checkout line was an hour long. Self checkouts were limited because they were enforcing rationing policies( 1 water, 2 dozen eggs, 1 TP, etc. They had stuff.

On the way home we needed gas. I'd been wearing gloves to remind me not to touch my face, but out of habit I took them off to pump gas. You, know, so they don't soak up gas and smell up my coat, etc. But of course gas pumps have keypads and so forth. Foolish mistake.

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Elok on March 16, 2020, 09:07:54 PM
Okay, supplement to the cough advice: that's for a PRODUCTIVE cough.  That is, if you're bringing anything up at all, bring it up.  Don't let it sit in your chest and form a breeding ground for more pathogens.  If your cough is entirely dry, just an endless hack, it's okay to suppress it.  And, now that I think of it, this germ does tend to produce more of a dry hack anyhow.  So that bit of advice may not be as useful as it sounds.
EDIT: Let's be clear on what's meant by "cough medicine."  There are expectorants like Guaifenisin (Robitussin), that try to thin mucus out so you can move it more easily, and suppressants, like dextromethorphan, that try to prevent you from coughing.  I'm speaking of the second variety here.  DM works, and sometimes it's a godsend, but it tends to get overused.  Sometimes you just have to grimace and keep coughing up crud.  Expectorants would be helpful if they worked, but it's not clear, based on clinical data, that any of them do.  Just drinking water does as much.  I know keeping your fluid intake up is wearisomely standard advice, but fluids make your secretions thinner, and unless you chug so much straight water that it mucks up your electrolyte balance, they're harmless--you pee out the excess.  That's why broth is beautiful, it gives you minerals as well, plus lots of nutrients.  Good strong homemade broth is a wonderful thing.
Now, one other thing I've heard, but have not looked into, and it sounds rather desperate: I read an account by a virologist that zinc does work, but there's a catch.  It has to be dissolving lozenges, and they have to be pretty strong; most lozenges are adulterated, which makes the taste more tolerable but also reduces efficacy.  Basically they dissolve in your mouth and coat your throat with the stuff, and it's a potent killer of coronaviruses.  It's horribly unpleasant stuff, and taken regularly it can permanently mess up your sense of taste or cause nerve damage.  I wouldn't mess with it myself; I mention it for folks like Rusty who have multiple risk factors stacking up against them and want to drive a nascent throat infection off to buy time for vaccine development.  Even so, caveat emptor.  I hear it's a horrid experience, and I'm not a doctor.  That is a total hail mary play right there.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 17, 2020, 12:27:26 AM
Thank you very much, Elok. That is very useful.

Back at the beginning of the month I restocked cold medicines, and I made sure that in addition to Nyquil type multi-purpose products, We had individual bottles of NSAIDS, Tylenol, Mucinex, dextromethorphan, zinc lozenges ( I've used before), saline sprays and I'm probably forgetting something. Also there are some leftover narcotics for emergencies. I hate the way they make me feel worse than pain, however they do a great job on a cough. As it happens I have gallons of boxed broth and some bullion in stock because I like to turn surplus and leftovers into soup. The dry sauna helps, too.  So I guess we're prepared.

IF we aren't already exposed, I expect we'll be hanging out here at home for the rest of the month.

Here's the question that perplexes me-

To Nasonex or not? It will soon be tree pollinating season, the worst time of the year for me. But aren't allergy symptoms the body's natural defense against viruses? I've been avoiding anti-histamines and Nasonex for that reason.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Elok on March 17, 2020, 01:30:03 AM
You're quite welcome.  They're probably going to cancel classes over this junk, so I might as well be useful until they either let us back in or it gets bad enough to press-gang us.

Noses are, for RTs, the things you have to shove a breathing tube through.  Not that we don't appreciate the excellent work they do filtering, warming, and humidifying, but we're lung people.  So I don't really know, but my uninformed and hemi-gluteal speculation here is that Nasonex should be okay because it has a purely local effect on the nose, and COVID doesn't often cause sneezing; sore throat, fever, hacking cough and dyspnea/SOB are common, but maybe 10% of cases sneeze IIRC.  Also if you get congested enough you'll be forced to mouth-breathe, which is definitely suboptimal from an immune perspective.  I wouldn't make myself miserable with snuffling and sneezing.  If you want to avoid Benadryl, etc. that might be wise, IDK.  Do you have a Neti-pot?  That might help too, and avoid the whole question.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 17, 2020, 01:43:29 AM
You're quite welcome.  They're probably going to cancel classes over this junk, so I might as well be useful until they either let us back in or it gets bad enough to press-gang us.

Noses are, for RTs, the things you have to shove a breathing tube through.  Not that we don't appreciate the excellent work they do filtering, warming, and humidifying, but we're lung people.  So I don't really know, but my uninformed and hemi-gluteal speculation here is that Nasonex should be okay because it has a purely local effect on the nose, and COVID doesn't often cause sneezing; sore throat, fever, hacking cough and dyspnea/SOB are common, but maybe 10% of cases sneeze IIRC.  Also if you get congested enough you'll be forced to mouth-breathe, which is definitely suboptimal from an immune perspective.  I wouldn't make myself miserable with snuffling and sneezing.  If you want to avoid Benadryl, etc. that might be wise, IDK.  Do you have a Neti-pot?  That might help too, and avoid the whole question.

Thanks again. My ENT is a saline spray enthusiast, rather than Netti pot. But I take your point about some filtration being better than none.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Elok on March 17, 2020, 02:04:45 AM
It's not just filtration--the warming and humidification are also fairly important.  Cold, dry air thickens your secretions.  That's why showers can help you clear out the crud.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on March 17, 2020, 03:44:03 AM
Work is a disaster of mixed messages at the moment, the decision left up to individual managers, so approximately 1/3 were working from home today, which made the other 2/3 very frustrated.  And yet none of them were practicing proper social distancing either.  I can kind of isolate to a corner, but people are idiots. 

Approximately 1/3 are actually mandatory, can't work from home under any circumstances, and their department is formulating a plan to run 24/7 and shift work the employees to minimize the actual contact. 

My facility houses about 1200 people, so this is no small thing I'm talking about. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on March 17, 2020, 11:49:45 PM
Day 2 of Utah restrictions (during a workday).  We MIGHT have hit 50% working from home today.  Definitely fewer, but nowhere near where it needs to be. 

Meanwhile the 1/3 mandatory have implemented the shift work beginning today, and arranged janitoral to sanitize between shifts, and that probably counts for the fewer cars more than truly more people working from home. 

Nada from my boss or the two levels above her.  People are still idiots, saw a group of ~50 going out for lunch. 

Kyle's work has a confirmed case, if on another shift which pretty much guarantees I'm going to be getting exposed sooner rather than later.  I'm not even sure if he'd be shut down if they went total lockdown. 

Cases in Utah doubled today. 

I start waxing philosophical and wondering if any permanent good can come of this.  We are rapidly proving working from home is quite possible.  Could it become the norm, eliminating all this office space and allowing affordable housing, or lord forbid even returning some farmland?   

It could very well be that post-covid-19 the companies that recover the best are the ones that master this work from home and incorporate it going forward.  There is a monumental amount of savings to be had if corporate america would embrace it.  Not to mention the energy savings as a whole. 

Yet it's also becoming quite clear to me, that the cube farms are strictly about CONTROL, not about being the best scenario to do the work. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 18, 2020, 01:08:41 AM
The Governor closed the bars here in Wisconsin. Things just got real!

Well, not really. I had to fetch 2 cats from the vet this evening, and driving home the nearest bar had a full parking lot. But it's a worthy goal.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 18, 2020, 01:58:10 AM

I start waxing philosophical and wondering if any permanent good can come of this.  We are rapidly proving working from home is quite possible.  Could it become the norm, eliminating all this office space and allowing affordable housing, or lord forbid even returning some farmland?   

It could very well be that post-covid-19 the companies that recover the best are the ones that master this work from home and incorporate it going forward.  There is a monumental amount of savings to be had if corporate america would embrace it.  Not to mention the energy savings as a whole. 

Yet it's also becoming quite clear to me, that the cube farms are strictly about CONTROL, not about being the best scenario to do the work.

I've been thinking about this, too.

*Even though I'm out of the workforce, I hope the lesson is learned that many meetings could be replaced by an e-mail and some answered questions.

*I'm hoping that affordable higher education at home becomes a thing, at least for the initial years of courses.

*I've long been concerned that there is very little shared experience to make people see each other as "We" & "Us" rather than "they" and "them." Maybe this will humanize everybody enough for a few years to prevent a war, or help us treat people in our own countries with mutual respect again.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 18, 2020, 06:19:56 AM
At noon we go in a lockdown we may not call such so 'till the first weekend of April.
Only necessary movements outdoors are allowed (though leisure walks in nature with family or one friend are still good). Necessary is defined as going to basic services (bank, post, medical), groceries, and commuting to work.

My dentist texted me my consult next week is canceled. I have a session scheduled with the physiotherapist in the afternoon. Now I'm waiting to hear if she closes shop as well.

Need to get my sick leave note delivered at work before noon, otherwise Î'm breaking regulations in two ways: timely official notice to the employer for the cause of sickleave, and breaking lockdown regulations.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 18, 2020, 09:48:56 AM
Well, my physiotherapist sent me a text message a contaminated person passed through her office last week.
Until further notice, not therapy.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Elok on March 18, 2020, 12:22:53 PM
They're now saying to treat COVID fevers and other symptoms with tylenol, not ibuprofen: https://www.bmj.com/content/368/bmj.m1086?fbclid=IwAR3Ue6QHXVg0QBf9uuBQNTHcvAxpIoImdIx16lz_7Q0RuV8TXxOBGJ246B0

(this is all over my Facebook, posting here in case it's not all over yours)
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on March 18, 2020, 01:44:58 PM
Aaaaand 5.7 earthquake to have more fun.  Judging by the sirens it might get adventurous getting home. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on March 18, 2020, 03:52:01 PM
Oh yeah. Perfect storm. 

Corona had mostly been contained to slc but the earthquake was centered there now displacing a lot of people that were isolated and quarantined and knocked out the state coronovirus lab. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 19, 2020, 07:17:29 PM

I start waxing philosophical and wondering if any permanent good can come of this.  We are rapidly proving working from home is quite possible.  Could it become the norm, eliminating all this office space and allowing affordable housing, or lord forbid even returning some farmland?   

It could very well be that post-covid-19 the companies that recover the best are the ones that master this work from home and incorporate it going forward.  There is a monumental amount of savings to be had if corporate america would embrace it.  Not to mention the energy savings as a whole. 

Yet it's also becoming quite clear to me, that the cube farms are strictly about CONTROL, not about being the best scenario to do the work.

I've been thinking about this, too.

*Even though I'm out of the workforce, I hope the lesson is learned that many meetings could be replaced by an e-mail and some answered questions.

*I'm hoping that affordable higher education at home becomes a thing, at least for the initial years of courses.

*I've long been concerned that there is very little shared experience to make people see each other as "We" & "Us" rather than "they" and "them." Maybe this will humanize everybody enough for a few years to prevent a war, or help us treat people in our own countries with mutual respect again.

*I'm thinking that there is huge potential here to end the anti-vax movement.

* Medical Reform- FDA, healthcare, health insurance, and emergency preparedness.

* That a lot of people will get in the habit of washing hands, not touching their faces, coughing or sneezing into their elbows or the insides of their coats, improving public safety in the long run.

* That we will adopt he Vulcan "live long and prosper" greeting as the new standard.

* That companies will provide paid sick leave, rather than force sick employees to work.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 19, 2020, 07:33:17 PM
I failed to note that the USA has raised their ranking from #8 to #6, bypassing France and South Korea in the number of cases a couple days ago. I truly believe that we will reach number one, in spite of our lack of testing swabs, kits, and labs doing the tests. Or rather because of it.

Well, Dr. Anthony Fauci  did say indirectly on Monday that the window on that had closed, and our last, best hope was to isolate ourselves immediately and cross our fingers.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 20, 2020, 09:02:43 PM
Bloody hell, The EU already has more (confirmed) cases of Covid-19 then there were in China.
And if things work like in my country, there must be lots of untested cases due to testing policy.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 20, 2020, 10:37:44 PM
I assume there's someone in charge doing their job there?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 21, 2020, 02:17:01 AM
Also on the silver lining side, much like when things close down and people stay home during sub-zero weather-

* crime & traffic accidents are down.

* presumably, so are workplace accidents.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 21, 2020, 02:58:23 AM
The Mrs. observes that this is like the 1918 Pandemic and The Great Depression rolled into one. The trouble is if you got into a breadline or unemployment line now you are risking your life. It needs to be drive-thru now.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 21, 2020, 06:05:17 PM
Out of curiosity, I checked availability of drive through test sites again. There's one a couple counties away near the IL border, which I expect will be choked with people who live or work in Chicago. It's been open for a few days. Another is set to open in Milwaukee next week. So there is actual progress on that front.

Not that it matters much how many we swab here a day, because the state lab can only process about 500 tests a day, and they were falling behind by hundreds of test/day early in the week.

Last I heard, the NY state lab had a capacity of 1,000 tests/ day, so presumably they are in a backlog situation as well.

------------------------------
We beat Iran and Germany, and are now ranked #4. If the state of New York were it's own country, it would be ranked # 8, ahead of South Korea, and USA would be #7, behind France.

Granted the information is only as good as the governments and the testing.

------------------------
They finally closed the beaches in FLA. The governor wanted the decisions made locally, as there are a lot of family sized beaches in the panhandle coast that aren't an issue. But spring break economics sapped the political will of local governments, and he was forced to intervene. I don't know that they've closed the bars and restaurants there as yet, but when they do the students will come home to roost.




Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 21, 2020, 06:37:52 PM
#4, 8, 7 bad or good?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 21, 2020, 07:36:24 PM
It's about total number of confirmed cases. China is still #1, but we're coming on strong. The EU would be #1 if they were tabulated that way.

It's probably best to separate the statistics by countries, because the response varies by country. Lots of viral infections originate or are discovered in China/Hong Kong simply because it's where a large share of the planet lives. Calling anything a Chinese flu or virus is meaningless. Also, remember that the official statistics and analysis will be after the fact, much like sports.

So... because S. Korea had trouble recently with SARS, the people demanded that the gov. be better prepared. Even though the first confirmed cases in both the USA and S. Korea were detected on the same day, the approaches were different. While the USA was sending the No Big Deal, Don't Panic message, South Korea had medical supplies on hand and was expediting test development. So their test and isolate strategy protected entire families from being infected. Their initial wave of cases has crested without their healthcare system being overwhelmed. They have hit a plateau with a resolved case death rate of 4%, and only 1% of existing cases in critical condition.

Iran took a denial approach, and even members of the government died. That led to mass graves. Their numbers probably aren't reliable.  Even so, according to the official numbers they are probably at a plateau of sorts now.

I figure Italy is a more apt comparison to the USA in terms of medical care and gov. preparedness, statistical transparency and level of authoritarianism. It's still getting worse. I figure they will surpass China in total cases within a week.

I'll summarize their numbers tonight.


Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 22, 2020, 07:46:08 AM
I assume there's someone in charge doing their job there?

At the onset of the pandemic, we still had a 'running affairs' government. This week it became an official one, and could act accordingly. And (almost) no politician is going to publically oppose this.
We're lucky to have a pretty good intensive care system in Belgium. Barely a third of capacity is used at the moment.
Numbers of fatalities and confirmed cases are still on the rise, the former reaching exponential levels, but a couple hundred people people have been released from hospital care too.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 22, 2020, 06:38:06 PM
We're #3.
We're crushing Spain with almost 14,000 new cases so far today.

Okay. Italy yesterday.

53,578 total cases
+6,557 new cases
4,825 total dead
+793 new deaths
6,072 total recovered
42,681 active cases
2,857 critical
886 cases/million population

-------------------

Another thing. Americans aren't healthy on average. We have a lot of diabetes, heart disease and hypertension. Those patients have worse survival rates.

--------------------

On a personal note, last night they discovered a case in my Mother-in-law's facility. It's a big complex, but it would have been in the same building, different floor. Fortunately for her she was personally in quarantine for a cold his week. On the other hand, flu has spread through the place in years past. So it's wait and see.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 22, 2020, 08:06:10 PM
Here's an opinion/math piece by a doctor that basically explains my earlier point that a virus always spreads faster and farther than you think.

https://medium.com/@jasonwbae/want-the-current-covid-19-number-in-u-s-multiple-by-90-b2e8841ab778

[Today, the official total number of confirmed COVID-19 cases in the U.S. is 13,677. I believe the actual number of infections is closer to 1.25 million, and here is why.
I work as an urgent care physician at the Palo Alto Medical Foundation Urgent Care in Palo Alto, CA, where I help run our outdoor drive-thru clinic for patients experiencing respiratory symptoms.]
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 23, 2020, 12:36:43 AM
The Ordinary Sith done messed up too many times...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 23, 2020, 02:10:50 AM
I've been away for a while and getting caught up...

On the way home we needed gas. I'd been wearing gloves to remind me not to t...ouch my face, but out of habit I took them off to pump gas. You, know, so they don't soak up gas and smell up my coat, etc. But of course gas pumps have keypads and so forth. Foolish mistake.
Wear them until your ready to get back into the car, then strip them off and dispose of them.  If need be, have new ones ready to put on, inside the car...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 23, 2020, 02:20:44 AM
'The taverns are fair full of gadabouts making merry this eve. And though I may press my face against the window like an urchin at a confectioner’s, I am tempted not by the sweetmeats within. A dram in exchange for the pox is an ill bargain indeed.' -Samuel Pepys during the plague
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 23, 2020, 03:00:01 AM
Bars are closed, so no Gadabouts here...   And tonight is the 3rd night of Mandatory Curfew, from 11PM to 5AM.  Most Restaurants are closed, except for Delivery (Uber-Eats for one) and Take-out.  As for Uber-Eats, whom really wants to have someone deliver not only their food, but a dose of the virus as well??  Local Bus is still running, at this time, but I don't know how much longer it will be.  As lots of people are not working, the usage has likely gone down a lot, but not gone away entirely.  When it does, a LOT of people are going to be in even worse shape, due to only having that for getting around...  And the workplaces that are still open will even suffer more. 
Almost all Hotels are closed.
Schools talk about home schooling, but when you have parents whom don't give a damn or send their kids to school so as to not to have to pay for babysitting, etc, having to even think about Home Schooling...  Well, we'll see how long that lasts or the long range repercussions from this spring.
And when it's been hard to even get laptops, etc for school kids, trying to get them to do online schooling, well...
Local News is about to come on, so I'll end this now...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 23, 2020, 03:13:23 AM
1007 confirmed cases, 17 deaths
Places in US are now considered to be Hotspot locations that are asked about, when pre-screening for possible testing for COVID-19
Some TSA workers at OIA have tested positive
Last of the Local Theme Parks "Fun Spot" will be closing as well.
School Lunches for needy school kids are being given out, but logistics for getting to them is not too clear...
Looks like the 2 Trill relief bill is now stalling, apparently, due to Dems.  Sad, when they (both sides) were working very closely about getting this out in record time...  While another Congressperson tested pos

[sigh]
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 23, 2020, 03:15:54 AM
Sen Rand Paul is 3rd to have been tested Positive for Covid
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on March 23, 2020, 11:33:23 AM
I need gas this morning.  Hopefully last day of working in office, but if it goes further to [poop], I'm one of the few that could still get into the office, and the only one in my 'department' (best analogy). 

So, the two closest stores to me are Fresh Market and WalMart (the grocery only style)

A little further away is a Maceys, which is basically Fresh Market in bulk, Costco, and Smiths (Originally locally owned, the family tried to pull walmart style crush competition back in the 80s and the locals boycotted them for it, which made it change hands, so it's Kroger but kept the local name)

I tend to prefer Fresh Market for the better meat counter, I've traditionally been in there 3 times a week or so.  Sunday morning we've always gone to get their doughnuts.  This week marked a huge change in the store.  They've gone into full ration mode.  1-2 items per family on most items.  Bakery shut down except for daily break production.  They've also stopped making cuts of beef, and instead are grinding it all with various recipes on how to make it stretch.  Chicken is scarce, but they've got a boat load of turkeys with instructions on how to stretch it, making broth, etc. 

Frozen aisle is devoid of all veggies and potatoes, but individual meals, pizzas, and ice cream are in abundance. 

The other patrons here are all VERY wary of the personal space, and many are wearing gloves and masks if they have them. 

Wanting a little more milk as we're used to getting it for the week, we were forced to go to WalMart. 

Ground beef doesn't exist at walmart, but there are loads of various steaks. Chicken not quite as scarce. 

The frozen foods aisle is full of potatoes and veggies, but the pizzas, ice cream, and individual meals are barren. 

Customers were mostly treating it like just another day, with several heard coughing.  I had to make my own space. 



Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 23, 2020, 06:27:14 PM
The thing is, when will it be "safe" for things to start getting moving again?  With the limiting of contacts, stay at homes and such, it will help to keepthe possible infections down to where the medical community is to (Hopefully) keep the people whem get the bad complicatins from dying.  But in the mean time, doiong all of these things will turn this in to timeframes of weeks to months.  People are not going to stay in long enough to allow for that, IMVHO, and thus, you will have spikes of infection that will require the current messures to have to be continued even longer than currently anticipated.

At thi time, this is the real danger...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 23, 2020, 11:24:01 PM
Okay. Screw it. At this point the pandemic briefings are more politics and economics than medical. I didn't think it would get to this point so soon. My pandemic thread is open to politics henceforth, because the president can't sort it out.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 24, 2020, 01:10:02 AM
I sure do wish they'd send me a few $2,000 checks, pronto...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 24, 2020, 01:11:18 AM
According to Dale, over at the WPC Discord, Australia is on Lockdown, about 24 hours ago
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 24, 2020, 01:14:40 AM
L ancer, in the Phillipenes is locked down in his compound (walled and gated) and had done so for the past few weeks.  he has supplies for himself, his family and people whom are living with him in his place.  He's been prepairing for this for a long time, it seems.
 We have been talking long about this for a while now
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 24, 2020, 01:40:00 AM
On a positive note Chinese researchers see a difference in survival rates according to blood type. That is, while most Chinese are type A, type O has better survival outcomes.

I'm type O, and so is my MiL ( now living in a building which had a confirmed case.) Both of us have lung issues, so maybe that will offset things a bit.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 24, 2020, 12:17:20 PM
2nd unconnected source that I've heard about the Blood thing. So it is likely True/  Do you have a link source for that, Rusty?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 24, 2020, 12:17:54 PM
O Pos here
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 24, 2020, 10:03:03 PM
2nd unconnected source that I've heard about the Blood thing. So it is likely True/  Do you have a link source for that, Rusty?

Well, this article is preliminary, but it links the original source -   
https://www.haaretz.com/science-and-health/.premium-blood-type-may-influence-how-prone-you-are-to-the-coronavirus-report-says-1.8699376

Also, I just got an e-mail notification that my recent blood donation had been delivered to children's hospital. Well, I'm glad that it's going to someone young, and I won't continue to be in suspense as to whether I've already been exposed and my donation might take a life rather than save one.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 24, 2020, 11:08:58 PM
Reposting what I stated over at WPC Discord, after posting your link.

Quote
It reminds me of something that I learned a while back, concerning the Black Death and susceptibility to HIV and AIDS.  to even where some people whom had higher resistance to the Plague (A Bacterial Infection), people from the surviving bloodlines seem to have a better time with HIV.  With, at the time I had seen/learned this, someone from one of those bloodlines had possibly sero-converted to neg from pos.  That was about a decade ago and I lost track of that research.  The Body is a wonderful and strange thing...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 25, 2020, 12:37:10 AM
Anecdotal-

So our state is further restricting, for 30 days. OF course we had a plumbing problem, which sent me to the best hardware store. They have re-organized. In the automatic door airlock they have a hand sanitizer auto-dispenser, and posted instructions about 6' of separation. Only 3 customers allowed inside at a time, 1 in each lane. Plexiglass between us and the cashiers. We tell them what we want, they fetch it, ring it up, and then the customer uses the credit card reader. Then they push a cart with our stuff and the receipts underneath the barrier. We sign one receipt and put it in a slot in a wooden box.

Pretty good, right? At l east I thought that they were making every effort on short notice to reduce the spread of germs. I was grateful that they were there for me.

The four or so people behind me didn't. They weren't contractors, they were retirees. They arrived separately, but were bunched together and complaining about the new system, weren't wearing masks or gloves or scarves or anything that would indicate that they are mindful of potential contagion. I have a bad feeling that they are misinformed about the pandemic, and won't take it seriously until it strikes people they know.

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 25, 2020, 03:01:32 AM
I notice that we ( the USA ) have had the second consecutive day of new cases in  5 figures.  So in that metric, we're #1.  I expect we will hit 6 figure days before we see 4 figures again. We could overtake  Italy in total number of cases soon.

Also, I understand that since Russia has been lying about their outbreak and suppressing news coverage, they are not on quarantine lists for international travel.

There are cases on every continent, except Antarctica.
It's because they're iceolated.

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 25, 2020, 04:59:17 AM
There are cases on every continent, except Antarctica.
It's because they're iceolated.

That, and during winter there's almost nobody there. Cruiseships return north, and bases get closed or continue with a skeleton staff.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 25, 2020, 10:21:12 AM
I sure do wish they'd send me a few $2,000 checks, pronto...

People put on technical/economic unemployment due to the lockdown here will get two hundred euro extra to pay for electricity -an water utilities this month. That's on top of about 150 euro which was added to the normal monthly unemployment allowance. And they're able to apply for delaying residential loan payments to their bank up until September. Rougly one million employees get those benefits now.

Me, since I'm still able to work, will have to wait for my vacation check next May to get extra funds.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 25, 2020, 05:44:33 PM
Los Angelis is on Lockdown.  If anyone traveled from New York Presently, they are being asked to self quarantine for the next 14 days.  New Orleans is now a Hot Spot, LA has most cases per Capita than rest of US.  LA Gov declared a Major Emergency.

Senate has agreed on the 2+ Trillion Dollar Relief package and it goes to conference.  I'm hoping it's on the Idiot's Desk to sign by Friday.

Prince Charles is pos
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on March 26, 2020, 12:44:50 AM
County to our south is on complete lockdown.  My son, my wife, and I have all been given mind your own business, copper cards. 

Mine basically says my company is essential to national security and no you can't ask what that means, here's my lawyer if you have any questions. 

Here's the thing:

We're only essential because we haven't been told we're not yet.  Trump still has the Airforce running as business is normal.  None of our due dates are being allowed to slip.  At this point, that's flat out insane.  I've seen the company hoarding supplies like you wouldn't believe in preparation of us having to work, with plans to have us sanitize our areas 3 times a day in an effort to ward off the virus. 

I'm sure all other companies are the same supporting a Gov contract.  SUSPEND OPERATIONS FFS.  At the government level. 

Costco had TP and paper towel today (didn't need either and let those who did fight over it), and I was able to buy chicken finally, but the thing we're not able to find right now is any kind of disinfectant.  (but the company has 800 gallons coming Friday, which can dilute into 8000...) 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on March 26, 2020, 12:54:53 AM

Senate has agreed on the 2+ Trillion Dollar Relief package and it goes to conference.  I'm hoping it's on the Idiot's Desk to sign by Friday.


I agree there are parts in here that people REALLY NEED.  Can someone explain to me why small businesses are set aside a portion as loans, while big businesses get twice as much with nothing about it being a loan?  (unless that part's just not being reported on)
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 26, 2020, 02:06:09 AM
Well, as far as emergency aid, I think they should have rammed through $1,000 per head last Friday, so that people would be getting it by the end of the month. Then they could haggle over the next bill with less urgency and graft/waste.

Oh well, what I've learned is wait until it's finalized, passed and signed before attempting to understand or explain anything like this. Because there is always a last minute change to get it passed. For example, Obama promised me that members of Congress would be in the same pool for healthcare as the public in the Affordable Care Act. That was my" insurance policy" that it would be a workable plan, and if it wasn't, it would get fixed pronto. That provision got yanked to get it passed. I don't blame Obama, I blame Congress. This is after all an election year. There are dangling donations for favorable legislative treatment, I'm sure.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on March 26, 2020, 02:17:05 PM
I've been given two more letters to carry with me today, each for a different scenario. 

However, the 'freedom of movement' letter has me wondering what exactly we are expecting to come down the line. 

Hill AFB went on HPCON Charlie today.  (HP is to designate health protocol, not war time)  We havent been on Charlie since Benghazi, and it will be the longest Charlie status since 9/11.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 26, 2020, 02:46:40 PM
For How Long?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 26, 2020, 02:51:54 PM
"Army goes to HPCON Charlie across all bases, Delta for contingency forces"
https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/03/25/army-goes-to-hpcon-charlie-across-all-bases-delta-for-contingency-forces/
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 26, 2020, 02:57:16 PM
https://phc.amedd.army.mil/topics/campaigns/covid19/Pages/HPCON.aspx
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 26, 2020, 03:09:57 PM
With Los Angeles on complete lock-down, you need to show your papers to get around...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 26, 2020, 04:57:10 PM
At current rates of new case acceleration ( which as Gov. Cuomo of New York points out is really only a measure of increased testing ) we will surpass both Italy and China by midnight to become the new WORLD LEADER in CORONA VIRUS CASES.

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 26, 2020, 05:33:03 PM
At current rates of new case acceleration ( which as Gov. Cuomo of New York points out is really only a measure of increased testing ) we will surpass both Italy and China by midnight to become the new WORLD LEADER in CORONA VIRUS CASES.

... With barely a third of the population...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 26, 2020, 06:55:25 PM
China is very likely grossly understated
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 26, 2020, 09:26:56 PM
Oh, sure. Data from China, Russia, Iran, N. Korea and the USA are suspect for various reasons.

Then there's the anecdotal from Italy. The mayor of Rome estimates that their deaths so far are underreported by a factor of 3 or 4. The reason being that they had old people dying alone this winter, and didn't recognize Covid-19 when they found the bodies simply because they'd never seen it before. So the cause of death would be pneumonia, or natural causes, for example.

------------------------------------
Here's a New York city doctor sharing his hard won wisdom-
1) Be conscious of your hands and sanitize them.
2) Wear a mask. Any kind. It's about making you conscious of not touching your face.
3) Don't get an N95 mask. The professionals need those.
4) Stay home or maintain separation.

Not a valid vimeo URLbclid=IwAR0a1DWrs5fHwsSuKihN2AfUagbn-7C62GTkA4qYp9_LvkzFLJaM6RQN8tk

-------------------

Of course one way to break yourself of the habit of touching your face is to rub your hands with a hot pepper.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 26, 2020, 09:53:13 PM
Heh. Maintain separation. Hard to do on the workfloor during shift switch. People coming in with their machine, and people coming down to get their machine. Mingling is simply unavoidable.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 27, 2020, 02:03:04 AM
Heh. Maintain separation. Hard to do on the workfloor during shift switch. People coming in with their machine, and people coming down to get their machine. Mingling is simply unavoidable.

Well, the New York City doctor says the disease is spread by mostly by human contact, and then touching hands to face. It's spread within families, and patient to doctor in exam rooms. It's usually from exposure of 15 minutes or more. Not much air transmission.

So wash or sanitize your hands and keep them off of your face.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 27, 2020, 08:02:09 AM
So wash or sanitize your hands and keep them off of your face.

Don't worry about that. Its all mandatory these days, and in general gloves and sanitizing products are aplenty in the depot.
Nevertheless, with the sunny weather this week, hayfever seems to come up. Or is it a developing (Corona) infection? ;)
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 27, 2020, 04:56:24 PM
Something to lighten the load...
As well as this: Boston Church doing Drive through Confessions...
(https://boston.cbslocal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3859903/2020/03/chelmsfordchurch.jpg?resize=420,236) (https://boston.cbslocal.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/3859903/2020/03/chelmsfordchurch.jpg?resize=420,236)

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 27, 2020, 05:50:40 PM
Now I've seen it. The people of the morning shift affiliated with the socialist trade union badged in, and refused to start working. Took until eight o'clock before they budged.

If I understood the explanation of one of the managers correctly (he was quite emotional), the sit-in was because the French government offered a risk bonus to workers while the Belgian federal government doesn't. This while our company does offer a sort of bonus. The manager implied the workers were compelled to try this by the leadership of this particular trade union.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 27, 2020, 06:48:19 PM
One of the reasons I'm still living in Florida, when opportunities for work that I would be qualified for, would be in States that allow Unions.  Florida is a Right to work state with no Unions, mostly
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 29, 2020, 02:49:40 AM
Well, took us about a month to get to a thousand deaths, but the second thousand only took an extra 48 hours.

We're 5th in critical cases, and 3rd in deaths/day.

Meanwhile, all the promises of drive through testing at big box stores hasn't materialized because we don't have the tests to supply the stations , or the reagents and labs to process them.

So- not enough tests, protective equipment, thermometers, or ventilators. No vaccine. No drug. No anti-serum ( although there may be before sooner than a vaccine )
Leaving stay home and wait it out as our only strategy option. Meanwhile, there are still open beaches in Florida.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on March 29, 2020, 06:13:05 AM
Well, took us about a month to get to a thousand deaths, but the second thousand only took an extra 48 hours.

Welcome to the cascade.

On my side the federal security council estimates we're going to hit the peek of the pandemic in the first week of April. If people follow the lockdown measures that is, but in general that seems the case sofar.

It was eerie driving home from work last night. I saw less then a dozen cars in passing, and perhaps half a dozen people walking around. And that on a Saturday night.
On my normal 'countryside' route I have to cross several main roads, and the traffic lights often switched to green before I even reached them.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 30, 2020, 12:35:52 AM
Yeah, big deal about setting up Drive through testing at the Convention Center, and they only have enough test to do about 250 per day...  Might as well not even do it...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 30, 2020, 01:58:33 AM
Quite a press conference today.
On the positive -
*Trump seems to finally grasp the concept that 2.2 million people could die in the USA.
* Trump has now extended his "15 days to slow the spread " restrictions through the end of April, rather than talking about filling the churches for Easter Sunday and getting the economy going again.
* In a week, Abbott Labs will have 50 thousand  5-15 minute tests available at hospitals/clinics across the country.
* Fauci believes the current trajectory is only 1-2 hundred thousand dead. Yes, I think that's positive in light of our many missteps to this point.

As for the negative-
He got bogged down in denying his previous statements, insulting reporters, bragging about his TV ratings, and being incredulous that facemask demand has suspiciously increased 10X and needs to be investigated, etc.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on March 30, 2020, 04:03:01 AM
What  a doffus...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 31, 2020, 01:01:41 AM
North Carolina went on lockdown three hours ago.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 31, 2020, 07:45:19 PM
PSA- Tomorrow is All Fools Day.  Be skeptical, cruel pranks will exploit the pandemic.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 31, 2020, 11:52:05 PM
I failed to note that the USA has raised their ranking from #8 to #6, bypassing France and South Korea in the number of cases a couple days ago. I truly believe that we will reach number one, in spite of our lack of testing swabs, kits, and labs doing the tests. Or rather because of it.

Well, Dr. Anthony Fauci  did say indirectly on Monday that the window on that had closed, and our last, best hope was to isolate ourselves immediately and cross our fingers.

I'm watching today's press conference because the promised topic was the models that convinced Trump to extend the lockdown recommendation through all of April.

Again, my paraphrase, but Dr. Fauci and Dr. Brix are confirming my earlier impression. We were on the Italian trajectory, and our only hope was to lock down as best we are able immediately.  As a result our best scenario is now 1-200K dead, rather than 1-2.2 million dead. That presumes we isolate as much as possible for another month.

[The far east Asia scenarios are already off the table. They depend on testing, personal protective gear, thermometers, and hand sanitizer that we don't have or don't have in use as yet. Not to mention a level of obedience and/or authoritarianism that wouldn't fly in the USA. ]
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 01, 2020, 12:20:14 AM
Pence got called out on the millions of tests promised by now, and the universal availability. Eventually he admitted that Yes, we have moved past that.

On the positive side, the states of California and Washington seem to be succeeding at "flattening the curve" by over-reacting quickly. So far preventing their hospital systems from being overwhelmed and worsening their survival rates. I figure they are better at the whole work from home transition.

I also see a pattern of infections in hub airport cities. Also, keeping things open for Mardi Gras, Spring Break, and filling the bars on St. Patrick's Day helped get us where we are now, thinking 100-200K dead is a good outcome. Of course the projections probably assume that the medical workers will not run out of protective gear and  start dying.

 I still think a significant problem that isn't being addressed is the hospitalization rate. 5% Of those infected will be hospitalized in serious or critical condition whether or not they survive. Can people afford that if they are out of work? Most get their health insurance through their employer. I have insurance, but I expect my insurer to go bankrupt during the pandemic. That worry should be a big incentive for people to try to avoid the disease if at all possible.




Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 01, 2020, 12:33:12 AM
ANECDOTAL-
In my dad's nursing home, there are no visitors, all employees have their temp taken when they come to work, and anybody that tests 110 degrees F or more goes home for 2 weeks. As a result, they have had practically no colds or flu since. Healthiest late winter/spring ever for them.

My mother in law's nursing home is pretty strict about people coming and going, too. For good reason-

In southeast Wisconsin there are two infection clusters. a) There are nursing homes that were cross contaminated by a nursing service. b) Young black men in the city proper. There is speculation about a link to some street drug, but since the slang terminology is meaningless to me I don't know if it's something that is smoked or shared, etc. Or maybe it's being spread by secret handshakes or something.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 01, 2020, 01:09:51 AM
110?  I congratulate anyone with the stamina to make the walk inside from the parking lot with a temp that high...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 01, 2020, 01:40:21 AM
 
110?  I congratulate anyone with the stamina to make the walk inside from the parking lot with a temp that high...

No doubt such a fever is very effective in killing all the bugs though, no wonder they go home for 2 weeks.  :)


Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 01, 2020, 02:02:28 AM
Projections don't have Utah hitting it's peak for another 3 weeks, even as we get more aggressive with the social distancing.  My county seems to be a week behind the epicenter to the south as well, but work's county is ramping up swiftly. 

They've done kind of a 'soft' shelter in place, not really rolling out the police to enforce but pretty much saying quit your [poop].  Mixed effectiveness. 

Interestingly only about 5% of the tests are coming back positive, but I've also learned that many of the people who initially test negative end up testing positive down the road, usually on a third test.  So, the whole tracking of number of tests seems silly to begin with. 

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 01, 2020, 02:03:18 AM
110?  I congratulate anyone with the stamina to make the walk inside from the parking lot with a temp that high...
No doubt such a fever is very effective in killing all the bugs though, no wonder they go home for 2 weeks.  :)
Wouldn't a fever that high be very effective in killing the host?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 01, 2020, 02:18:22 AM
110?  I congratulate anyone with the stamina to make the walk inside from the parking lot with a temp that high...
No doubt such a fever is very effective in killing all the bugs though, no wonder they go home for 2 weeks.  :)
Wouldn't a fever that high be very effective in killing the host?
Shhhhh, spoilers! 

Anecdotally I can say somewhere around 103 you start getting some really good hallucinations.  Mine are almost always the same thing, oddly.  Even more strange, they aren't horror movie content. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Elok on April 01, 2020, 02:21:42 AM
Cursory googling seems to indicate that a fever over 108 causes brain damage.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 01, 2020, 05:23:15 AM
110?  I congratulate anyone with the stamina to make the walk inside from the parking lot with a temp that high...
No doubt such a fever is very effective in killing all the bugs though, no wonder they go home for 2 weeks.  :)
Wouldn't a fever that high be very effective in killing the host?
Shhhhh, spoilers! 

Anecdotally I can say somewhere around 103 you start getting some really good hallucinations.  Mine are almost always the same thing, oddly.  Even more strange, they aren't horror movie content.

Well I thought I typed "100".....   Sorry.   I should warn everyone that I am prone to that kind of dyslexic-ish typing error. That's why I don't code.   

I get tripping at 103 myself. Schizzo, too.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 01, 2020, 05:24:14 AM
We are powering our way to #1 in other categories, while building up a substantial lead in number of cases of Corona virus.

Todays deaths
1) Italy with 837
2) Spain and USA tied with 748 each.
3) France with 499
4) U.K. with 381

Severe & Critical patients
1) Spain with 5607
2) France with 5565
3) USA with 4576
4) Italy with 4023
5) Iran with 3703


Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 01, 2020, 03:32:11 PM
Belgium:

Number of people hospitalized*: 4995
Among which on Intensive Care: 1088
Total number of people who left the hospital: 2132
Total number of deceased: 828

* number of beds occupied by people on whom a Corona infection is confirmed

We'll likely cross the total of 1000 deceased before the weekend...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 01, 2020, 05:04:28 PM
How do you hospitalize .995 of a person? 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 01, 2020, 06:04:39 PM
Ah yes, you guys use a comma every three numbers. :P
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 02, 2020, 03:11:37 AM
Well, we've jumped to over a thousand dead today. We're #1.

Apparently Florida, our 3rd largest state by population, and second to Maine in % of seniors, finally got with the program today. Well, I guess there are exceptions for religious worship or something. Hard to imagine this actually working nationally without their participation. Well, I expect they will be paying the price for a late start in a couple weeks.

I learned today that if you go on a ventilator with Corvid-19 that your chances of recovery are only 20%. My wife says that it's not personally worth it for her, and I'm inclined to agree ( even if they would assign one to me) that I wouldn't want to spend the last 3 weeks of my life that way. Ventilator issues are just quarreling over crumbs among the states.

This best case scenario model of only 100-200 thousand dead in the USA assumes national lockdown through the end of May. Today they said that they hoped a test to prove that somebody was over the infection and had immunity could be ready in a month. Of course all of the pronouncements about testing availability we'd have by now were pie in the sky. Even if the Abbot Labs devices were fully online, it's only an extra 50K tests/day, when we could use about a million tests/day in a country with 327-330 million people.

Without a way to certify survivors that they're fine, and can't be re-infected or infect others, everybody will be treated the same. That will get old fast, and people will break ranks more than they already are. I see lots of people trying to convince themselves that since they are young and probably won't die, or that since they were really sick once this winter and must have already had it, that they can safely circulate.

I'm concluding we won't nationally sustain a lockdown through the end of May unless we get the promised tests soon. That kicks us out of the current best case scenario.

I also read that Trump was crossing his fingers that warm weather would make this problem disappear, rather than acting in early February to get ahead of it. That's why he was saying it was just a flu/only 15 cases/it'll be gone, etc. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Elok on April 02, 2020, 12:25:20 PM
Have you found hard data to support the 20% vent survival figure?  I've heard mixed reports, and had no success tracking down a good study.  The worst I've heard is 82% mortality on a vent, while the best is about 50.  This could improve as we learn more about the virus, but I don't know.

Speaking for my part of FL, I don't know how much difference the lockdown makes at this point; there was nowhere interesting to go beforehand anyway.  I'm going to work at my pharmacy, and to the school library to use their better wifi for my online classes (most of the county doesn't need to do this; I live in an extremely rural area).  Some churches might remain open, but mine has been shut down for weeks.

The hammer-and-dance talk really does seem like a farce.  Buying time only helps if there's something helpful in the pipeline.  The vaccine will come in a year or more, our pharmaceutical supply chain is unreliable at the best of times, it takes a lot of training to become skilled with a ventilator and Ford's emergency ventilators appear to be archaic piles of junk, inadequate to cares for ARDS patients.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 02, 2020, 02:12:26 PM
Speaking for my part of FL, I don't know how much difference the lockdown makes at this point; there was nowhere interesting to go beforehand anyway.  I'm going to work at my pharmacy, and to the school library to use their better wifi for my online classes (most of the county doesn't need to do this; I live in an extremely rural area).  Some churches might remain open, but mine has been shut down for weeks.

The hammer-and-dance talk really does seem like a farce.  Buying time only helps if there's something helpful in the pipeline.  The vaccine will come in a year or more, our pharmaceutical supply chain is unreliable at the best of times, it takes a lot of training to become skilled with a ventilator and Ford's emergency ventilators appear to be archaic piles of junk, inadequate to cares for ARDS patients.

Haven't really read up on your lockdown situation, but FL does seem to be a dollar late and a day short in implementing their shutdowns to where it MAY have already been too late.  And maybe even too sparse.  I not in particular you are accessing a library, where ours here in Utah have been shuttered for weeks.  Part of this is TEH CHURCH at least seems to be taking it seriously (to a degree, I could rattle on with that), which puts pressure on our officials to do the same. 

As for useful things in the pipeline, even without a vaccine, there are multiple clinical trials underway for a multitude of treatments.  Any time you can buy to prove one of them more effective is worthwhile.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 02, 2020, 02:17:27 PM
I know it's been hard to find, if anyone needs some sanitizer, you might have some luck with these guy's as it's not widely know they're making it yet, and it starts up today. 

https://www.froggysfog.com/sanitizer/froggy-s-simply-sanitizer-hand-rub-formulation.html
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Elok on April 02, 2020, 06:27:01 PM
I can't remember if I've already mentioned this here, but America's pharmaceutical manufacturing and distribution industry is broadly dysfunctional; even if we got a good treatment, I have little confidence that it could be mass-produced in the quantities needed in a timely manner.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 02, 2020, 09:02:12 PM
Have you found hard data to support the 20% vent survival figure?  I've heard mixed reports, and had no success tracking down a good study.  The worst I've heard is 82% mortality on a vent, while the best is about 50.  This could improve as we learn more about the virus, but I don't know.

Strictly hearsay. 
https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/cuomo-says-death-rate-will-rise-due-to-patients-on-ventilators-unlikely-to-recover-81238597724?fbclid=IwAR2ZAWlSAjMbpP8Xt2E8vAidC_QnMdRWCcJeBIW6uVgD93QjYE9sEUgs7QQ

Then again, Gov. Cuomo seems to be candid in this crisis, and his experience is probably significant.  I figure it's probably a benchmark for medical professionals to compare tech and technicians and make projections.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 03, 2020, 12:46:51 AM
Trump just got finished Throwing Dem Governors under the bus, by saying that they kiss his ass on the phone with him and not accepting the additional stuff he was offering to send them and then talking bad about im to the public... 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 03, 2020, 01:36:18 AM
Say, is hEt set up so she's safe at work?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 03, 2020, 05:41:34 AM
Speaker Pelosi was on Colbet tonight and she briefly talked about Trump adding a signing Statement to the 2.3 Trillion Bill.  Something about how he was going to ignore the Oversite Stipulations of the bill.
Anyone know about this?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 03, 2020, 06:01:16 AM
Speaker Pelosi was on Colbet tonight and she briefly talked about Trump adding a signing Statement to the 2.3 Trillion Bill.  Something about how he was going to ignore the Oversite Stipulations of the bill.
Anyone know about this?

Well, he said he was going to ignore oversight, then he said he would provide oversight himself. Trump's statements have a pretty short half-life these days, so who knows what he'll actually do? I think he intends to use the money to 1) enrich those who fund his re-election, 2) bail himself out.


Adam Schiff is introducing a bill for a committee/commission to investigate the pandemic response, much like investigating Pearl Harbor and 9/11. The idea is that we can learn from our mistakes. They named a chairman today and will also provide oversight for the emergency spending with subpoena powers.

Today he complained about it at his press conference, saying that it was a witch hunt that would only boost his popularity.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 03, 2020, 03:08:36 PM

Haven't really read up on your lockdown situation, but FL does seem to be a dollar late and a day short in implementing their shutdowns to where it MAY have already been too late.  And maybe even too sparse.  I not in particular you are accessing a library, where ours here in Utah have been shuttered for weeks.  Part of this is TEH CHURCH at least seems to be taking it seriously (to a degree, I could rattle on with that), which puts pressure on our officials to do the same. 

In perhaps a twist of irony, TEH CHURCH taking things seriously might have just exacerbated the problem a hundred fold. 

Weeks ago, just after the big panic, they closed the churches and temples and rolled out essentially worship from home orders.  (though given the fragmented organizational structure, this latter was left up to bishops and stake presidents, so I'm sure it's inconsistent from area to area)  These actions very much drove home to the members that this was to be taken SERIOUSLY and was going to be long term, and people really settled in for the most part.

HOWEVER, TEH CHURCH was not yet done, and more recently they recalled their missionaries.  So, we've had HUNDREDS of kids returning home.  But that's not in itself what's going to cause the problem, and it will be hard for those outside Utah to understand, but these kids are pretty much played hail the conquering hero and paraded around when they return under normal situations. 

And the idiot members are still trying to do that.  HUGE crowds waiting for these kids at the airport.  Parties once their home.  Utah's probably going to blow up in the next 2 weeks. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 03, 2020, 04:51:23 PM
Here's an NPR transcript about the (in)effectiveness of ventilators-
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/04/02/826105278/ventilators-are-no-panacea-for-critically-ill-covid-19-patients?fbclid=IwAR1-woRPyLH4gzXW_UPtqLuhkWuTrG3xRfRz-wdZQlAZcQhDtQjWDsdNHaU

[The largest study so far to look at mortality among coronavirus patients on ventilators was done by the Intensive Care National Audit & Research Centre in London. It found that among 98 ventilated patients in the U.K., just 33 were discharged alive.

The numbers from a study of Wuhan, China, are even grimmer. Only 3 of 22 ventilated patients survived.
And a study of 18 ventilated patients in Washington state found that nine were still alive when the study ended, but only six had recovered enough to breathe on their own.
All the early research suggests that once coronavirus patients are placed on a ventilator, they will probably need to stay on it for weeks. And the longer patients remain on a breathing machine, the more likely they are to die.]
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 03, 2020, 05:27:54 PM
OK captain obvious? 

Is there a comparison to other situations in which someone is placed on a ventilator?  You're on the ventilator as your body has lost the ability to breath.  It's sole purpose is to buy a little time in the hopes your body re-learns or repairs itself enough to breath on it's own.  How many influenza patients that progress to the point of needing a ventilator recover? 

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 03, 2020, 05:34:54 PM
https://www.aast.org/GeneralInformation/mechanicalventilation.aspx

Quote
-In hospital mortality of ventilated patients was 34.5% and only 30.8% of patients were discharged home from the hospital.

Looks like covid is about standard for ventilator use, with only 31% of people put on ventilators ever getting a discharge. 




Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 03, 2020, 07:44:36 PM
What happened with the other 34.7% patients? Still in hospital but not in IC anymore?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 03, 2020, 09:50:42 PM
What happened with the other 34.7% patients? Still in hospital but not in IC anymore?


Unclear how pulling the plug factors into 'died on ventilator' in the study.  So, perhaps someone wanted off to mutter some last words, so they aren't "on the ventilator' when they die? 

My grandma for instance was off the ventilator for about 2 hours before she officially died, but we all knew what pulling the vent meant, not sure which way the study would 'call it' from the summary given.  I can't be arsed to go read the thing in it's entirety. 
   

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 03, 2020, 10:53:46 PM
In short, one can pull these kind of statistics any way they want.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 04, 2020, 12:33:01 AM
Trump at New Conferance today, just before he Handed off to VP, "This was artificially induced"...  WTF!!!
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 04, 2020, 01:22:56 AM
My sense of it is that the odds are better in cases of normal pneumonia, and that's why it's a standard treatment that hospitals call for.  But people who are on ventilators for brain and spine diseases, trauma,  strokes, etc. pulled down the stats pre-Covid-19. 

I've also heard that there is now a shortage of the drugs they use to tranquilize patients with ventilators, so machines alone won't solve the problem, even if there were enough techs to operate them. So that's part of my conclusion that ventilator issues are fighting over crumbs.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Elok on April 04, 2020, 01:24:02 AM
OK captain obvious? 

Is there a comparison to other situations in which someone is placed on a ventilator?  You're on the ventilator as your body has lost the ability to breath.  It's sole purpose is to buy a little time in the hopes your body re-learns or repairs itself enough to breath on it's own.  How many influenza patients that progress to the point of needing a ventilator recover?
That's not really how you're supposed to use a ventilator.  I bought a ventilators for dummies type book (written by a hospital doctor) and one of his "eleven commandments" at the front of the book is that the ventilator has no therapeutic value of its own.  Its purpose is to buy time, not for the body to heal itself--if you're tubed, you've degraded past the point where that's plausible--but for the staff to solve whatever the underlying issue is.  A lot of vent patients die, because they're very sick patients, and because once you get sick enough it often turns out that healing you one way will only kill you another way.  For example, getting a diuretic to address your edema might finish off your ailing kidneys.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 04, 2020, 01:35:00 AM
Trump at New Conferance today, just before he Handed off to VP, "This was artificially induced"...  WTF!!!

There are conspiracy theories that Corvid-19 escaped from a bio weapons lab in China. Trump probably caught that conspiracy theory from FOX or Q Anon or Breitbart or some such.

I read an article this week which discredited the theory. Corvid is less contagious than the SARS virus because it's "hooks" are less effective. If someone were weaponizing a virus they wouldn't make it less contagious. Corvid-19 is similar to viruses found in bats and pangolins.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 04, 2020, 04:01:13 AM
Anecdotal -

Took the dog on the mile walk today.  There was one younger person trying to net frogs, and another that was riding a mountain bike. The rest were geezers. They tended to travel in clusters and socialize with everyone they saw, and didn't maintain distance. I was the only one wearing gloves and face covering.

I've seen pictures of the city that look vacant, so that seems to be working. I only hear trucks and ambulances on the expressway.

We're low on some foods, and the Mrs. wants to restock. I think we'll venture out to Costco or SAM's tomorrow.

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 04, 2020, 04:07:08 AM
My sense of it is that the odds are better in cases of normal pneumonia, and that's why it's a standard treatment that hospitals call for.  But people who are on ventilators for brain and spine diseases, trauma,  strokes, etc. pulled down the stats pre-Covid-19.

Cursory attempts to look that up lead to too many studies on how being hooked to a ventilator can CAUSE pneumonia and increase morbidity, thus strengthening my view of ventilators as last resort only situations to begin with.   

Quote
I've also heard that there is now a shortage of the drugs they use to tranquilize patients with ventilators, so machines alone won't solve the problem, even if there were enough techs to operate them. So that's part of my conclusion that ventilator issues are fighting over crumbs.

The problem really is the hap-hazard way we're going about this.  I don't think there's a shortage, per se, but a shortage at points of need.  The blatant lack of leadership at the national level along with complete ignorance on how to actually USE the tools he DOES have is nothing short of astonishing and leaves the states duke it out amongst themselves for supplies.

Utah pulled a general out of retirement to handle our response, and he's treating it like a war.  His first briefing today was reminiscent of the first gulf war briefings.  No nonsense here's where we are, here's where we need to be, here's how we get there.  While we are making field hospitals to help deal with the influx, we're taking a different tac than others I've seen, and routing non-covid patients to the field hospitals, while essentially turning the permanent hospitals into covid only centers.  Ventilators aren't going to be the problem HERE by the sounds of it.  PPE might be.  There's a little bit of ambiguity for our expected numbers though, since the regional medical system is DESIGNED for surrounding states to fly patients into Utah for critical care as a general course of action.  Not sure how that's going to play out with covid. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 04, 2020, 04:21:41 AM
Anecdotal -

Took the dog on the mile walk today.  There was one younger person trying to net frogs, and another that was riding a mountain bike. The rest were geezers. They tended to travel in clusters and socialize with everyone they saw, and didn't maintain distance. I was the only one wearing gloves and face covering.

I've seen pictures of the city that look vacant, so that seems to be working. I only hear trucks and ambulances on the expressway.

We're low on some foods, and the Mrs. wants to restock. I think we'll venture out to Costco or SAM's tomorrow.



Stores seem to have mostly recovered here.  I was able to get a full week's supply in one stop finally. 

I have one from work.  I was called in to the office yesterday to manage the emergency response.  We had an employee with presumptive positive symptoms, and thus shut down and had a CDC approved cleaning team in to sanitize the building. 

Fascinating situation really.  They essentially dropped in foggers, let it settle, then went in and cleaned the residue.  Kinda cool. 

However...

Guys test come back negative and he's back in the office today, and so are all the people that were supposed to isolate because of his potential.  I noped the [fuddle-duddle] right out of that entire building (not my normal building anyway).  The realities are that the tests aren't 100%.  2 tests 24 hours apart are generally needed to confirm.  And some even get worse later and test positive even after that.  Further, it don't matter.  If he was bad enough to go to a doctor, there's no reason he should be back to work now. 

I shouldn't need to be back in office for 2 weeks unless we get another positive I need to go manage the response again, and I'm grateful I can avoid the death trap. 


Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 04, 2020, 06:52:21 AM
They have reported about recent False Results, bothe Pos and Neg and the need to retest several people.  And with things like taking up to 16 days to get results back, it's almost better to just Quarentine for that same time and see if they get sick or not.

Also, about 3 weeks after they had started drive through testing at the Orange County Convention Center, they had a Record today.  7 Minutes after they had opened, they shut off the line, as the 250 test that they have available were used up.  They have consistantly, had the same number of test per day as when they first started.  IMVHO, this is not only Absolute Bull{poop}, but they might as well NOT even be doing it at all.  With the Stay at Home Order, The Huge Line for the test is the only Traffic that is even in the area at all.

And the Number per Day is a FEMA Mandated number...  [Trump speek] We will have so many test...  So many.... [/trump]
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 04, 2020, 10:22:45 AM
I shouldn't need to be back in office for 2 weeks unless we get another positive I need to go manage the response again, and I'm grateful I can avoid the death trap.

You're lucky in that. I need to be at work to do my job. I have a good chance to be already exposed to the virus. Too many people which have had (or still have, but are home atm) a cough are around. I'm literally at close quarters with lots of other people at work twice a day during shift change.
Right now I'm home for a week. My skin reacts badly to the disinfectant my employer uses to sanitize the working equipment, and I was one of the guys tasked to do it.
Even wearing latex gloves and my regular gloves on top of them enough of the stuff comes through to cause an allergic reaction to my hands and wrists.
I'm definitely not unhappy about that. Gives my tennis elbow some time to recover as well.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 05, 2020, 06:43:54 PM
I feel your pain, Geo. I had a job once where I was exposed to chemicals to which I was allergic. It affected the skin on my hands. Stress compounded the problem. I wore gloves for a while. Eventually I got more careful, more relaxed, and acclimated, I guess.  I don't remember how long that took, because I tried to forget that unpleasant period.

***
Anecdotal-

Life happened and we got off to a late start. The COSTCO parking lot was jammed, so we went to two supermarkets to get stuff instead. Aside from more traffic at lunch in the fast food strip, I got the impression that it was almost like shopping during a Packer game- reduced cars on the road and people shopping, particularly for a weekend. Unlike the last time I was in a supermarket they had wipes for the carts, tape lines every six feet, and plexiglass between the customer and the cashier. Some of the shoppers had gloves and masks. While I saw employees cleaning the carts, I didn't see any wiping off the door handles on the refrigerator and freezer cases. ( I did see that last time I was in Sam's ).

Also, Milwaukee order it's first refrigerated reefer trailer to serve as a temporary morgue.

My dad's nursing home in PA has stopped giving showers. All patients are now confined to their rooms.
My MiL's nursing home in WI has had room confinement for a month or so, but they are letting them out to walk down the hall and back daily so that they don't get weak and stiff. Not sure about the shower vs. sponge bath arrangements.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 05, 2020, 11:10:41 PM
I have an aunt. Career nurse. She was the first person I know to say that the corona virus was an international menace, and that it would be the big one. That was when it was still confined to China. She's in her 80s and suffers from early dementia- calls you up to repeat yesterday's conversation sometimes, for example.

Recently she's been worrying that she'll forget and touch her face. She will be really angry if she dies so stupidly after all these years.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 06, 2020, 10:46:54 AM
Thanks, Rusty.

The rash on one hand is almost gone now. And on the other its improving each day.

On Corona-related news, the total tally of 20,000 confirmed infections treshold has been passed now. And the daily deathtoll is still increasing as well. 1632 now in total.
On the other hand, the curve of new confirmed cases seems to flatten out for a couple days now, and there's less IC beds occupied now. The hospitals in most areas never needed more then half their IC capacity for Corona cases, except for one province which had to move a number of patients to hospitals in other provinces.

Going outhouse restrictions are still in force for another two weeks. But I  think they will be extended towards the beginning of May.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 06, 2020, 03:43:38 PM
I still bear scars from allergic reactions it took me nearly a year to track down what was causing.  Have you tried liquid gloves before you put on your gloves?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 06, 2020, 05:13:53 PM
I have to work with what my employer provides. Besides, if I brought something of my own to the workfloor (at my expense) you can bet it wouldn't last long.

The ideal situation would be I wouldn't have to clean working equipment anymore. There's one or two other tasks I can do which wouldn't stress my elbow too much.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 06, 2020, 09:08:19 PM
Boris Johnson is now in intensive care.

Tomorrow is election day here in Wisconsin. It was postponed  in a special session of the legislature in favor of  a vote by mail scheme.

Went to COSTCO today, seemed like a normal Monday. They still don't have things like rubbing alcohol, hand sanitizer, masks, gloves, etc. in stock. People were keeping their distance, and a majority seemed to have masks and/or gloves of some kind on. They have plexiglass barriers and tape on the floor now too. Signs about keeping distance throughout the store. As before in COSTCO, employees actively cleaning the doors and handles on the refrigerators. No more food samples, fortunately. Limited number of people allowed in, and employees were sanitizing the carts.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 06, 2020, 11:15:38 PM
Trump remains amazed that there are hundreds of countries in the world.

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 07, 2020, 02:45:06 AM
*Trump was getting mad at reporters for refusing to praise him for testing more people than any other country. The other side of that is that the USA isn't even in the top 40 countries in terms of tests/1 M population.

*CORRECTION- The bit about the Wisconsin election was misreported. The governor called for a special session of the legislature to postpone tomorrow's election, but what actually happened is that he acted by decree ( I presume the GOP controlled legislature refused to cooperate ) and later today the WI Supreme Court overturned him.

I can't say I fault the court. Imagine Trump postponing an election that wasn't going his way. Bad idea that one person could have that power and exercise it the day before.

Gov. Evers should have foreseen this problem when he locked down the state and encouraged everybody to request the vote by mail option at that time.  We did, and our ballots have been mailed back in to the local government.  That said, the Republicans suck for not addressing this problem.  Now people will probably suffer and die as a result, just when we are finally getting some traction on social separation.

* My wife informs me that while I was in the kitchen, New Jersey was excited to announce that they just had their first Corvid-19 patient to get off of the ventilator alive today.

* Yesterday I heard a New York respiratory therapist comment that pre-Covid-19 a typical patient was on the ventilator 3-7 days. The typical Corvid patient is on for 3 weeks. She wouldn't comment on the survival rate, but didn't contradict Gov. Cuomo's generalization of 20% survival.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 07, 2020, 03:33:12 AM
Trump remains amazed that there are hundreds of countries in the world.
A recent press conference, he claied that it was a good friend of his whom didn't know that there were so many countries in the world.... "So Many..."  And most of them are [pop]holes, too

I figure that it was his reflection in the mirror that is the good friend that didn't know that...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 07, 2020, 03:39:08 AM
Well, according to Trump, if there was mail in Elections, no Republican would be voted in, as the Dems would do something like fake ballots or some such BS (I think that's something hbe had seen on Fox News)...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 07, 2020, 02:24:02 PM
hEt is an RT.  (Ventilators are her whole career, though she specializes in NICU).  I brought up this whole mortality rate on ventilators thing to her.  Here's her response:

VENTILATORS ARE NOT A TREATMENT, THEY BUY TIME FOR OTHER TREATMENTS TO WORK.  If patients are dying on the ventilators, it's an indication of the other things being done aren't working, not that the ventilators themselves are good or bad.  The whole measurement is stupid. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 07, 2020, 04:17:47 PM
In short, a high(er) mortality of people on vents are just an indication of in general more health issues before those people were even attached to the machine.
Comes down to a lacking healthcare system to me.

I know this may sound snobbish, but it is also a true assesment.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 07, 2020, 06:37:19 PM
In short, a high(er) mortality of people on vents are just an indication of in general more health issues before those people were even attached to the machine.
Comes down to a lacking healthcare system to me.

I know this may sound snobbish, but it is also a true assesment.

It doesn't sound snobbish. Every country has it's own approach to both healthcare and emergency management. A pandemic is going to point out flaws.  I hope we get something better on the other side of it.

I think there are other issues in play in the USA which are going to make mortality worse here. Diet, which gives us a higher share of obesity, heart disease and diabetes.  Then there's the matter of vice, whether it is opiate abuse, or the smoking alternative "vaping." 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 08, 2020, 11:07:43 PM
Then there's the anecdotal from Italy. The mayor of Rome estimates that their deaths so far are underreported by a factor of 3 or 4. The reason being that they had old people dying alone this winter, and didn't recognize Covid-19 when they found the bodies simply because they'd never seen it before. So the cause of death would be pneumonia, or natural causes, for example.

I saw something similar yesterday about the city of New York. Previously the emergency services would collect an average of 20-25 bodies found dead at home/day from all causes. Now they typically collect about 200 bodies/day. Understandably so, the coroner's office is slammed, and doesn't have the testing materials anyway, because corpses aren't a priority. These bodies aren't officially in the Corona count.

IMHO this undercount is possibly worse than we think because they may not be finding all of the bodies if it's true that loss of sense of smell is an early symptom of infection, and if evictions are lax for non-payment of rent due to public/gov pressure. Besides that it's normal for people to not be seen as they shelter in place, so nobody calls for a welfare check.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 09, 2020, 06:11:53 AM
On a personal note, Corvid-19 has probably infected somebody I know. He's a 70something in Pennsylvania, and there are confirmed cases in the county. Fever, nausea, aches, can't taste or smell his food. No cough or test results yet. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 09, 2020, 01:16:33 PM
Corvid-19
That's a murder...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 09, 2020, 01:33:03 PM
12 Monkeys, 19 Crows
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 09, 2020, 05:31:27 PM
Looks like African Amaricans are about 1/3 more likely to have major complications, including death, from this....
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 09, 2020, 07:17:05 PM
Corvid-19
That's a murder...

Thank you for that chuckle, I needed it today!
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 09, 2020, 07:45:12 PM
Looks like African Amaricans are about 1/3 more likely to have major complications, including death, from this....

The question really is whether this is indicative of economic status/availability of proper healthcare or some other factor. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 11, 2020, 03:14:52 AM
There's a lot in play , I think.

*According to a Congresswoman from Illinois, because  Africa was slow to report any cases compared to Eurasia, a rumor started that African Americans were resistant to this virus. Personally I think that promoting an anti-malarial drug as a miracle cure re-enforced that misconception.

* Some say mistrust of the federal government contributes to the problem.

* It's theorized that a large share of African Americans work in "essential jobs" and must go in to work rather than shelter at home. Also, a large share of them commute by mass transit rather than private vehicle.

So possibly there are fewer precautions taken and more exposure.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 11, 2020, 04:11:16 AM
Convalescent Plasma Therapy is looking good for possible treatment for worse cases.

And Osceola County (Kissimmee and Disney Village as well as other places near Disney) is now requiring, by Law, the mandatory requirement of wearing a mask when out in the public.  Other Florida Counties are looking at similar things.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 11, 2020, 08:13:11 PM
There's a lot in play , I think.

*According to a Congresswoman from Illinois, because  Africa was slow to report any cases compared to Eurasia, a rumor started that African Americans were resistant to this virus. Personally I think that promoting an anti-malarial drug as a miracle cure re-enforced that misconception.

* Some say mistrust of the federal government contributes to the problem.

* It's theorized that a large share of African Americans work in "essential jobs" and must go in to work rather than shelter at home. Also, a large share of them commute by mass transit rather than private vehicle.

So possibly there are fewer precautions taken and more exposure.

Saw an AMA spokesperson address this, citing misinformation, essential jobs, and thirdly, a higher incidence of diabetes and hypertension.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 11, 2020, 08:26:18 PM
America currently leads in the following categories-
total cases
new cases
total deaths
new deaths
active cases
serious, critical
total tests

Currently 6th in total recovered.
Currently in top 20 for cases/1M pop
 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 12, 2020, 08:18:12 PM
On a positive note, the guy I know in PA is feeling better.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 12, 2020, 08:56:46 PM
We've had our first Corona riot this weekend in a suburb of our capital.
A youngster tried to run from an identity check with his motor bike, managed to evade one patrol but collided with another oncoming patrol while overtaking a van. He died in the crash. His friends/gang started rioting, and sofar a hundred of them were arrested.
And several hundred violations of non-essential commuting and gathering were fined. That's €250 for each transgression. A number of them repeating offenders.
I better make sure I have my employers' letter with me when going to work tomorrow.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 12, 2020, 09:23:16 PM
Well, with income and sales down, they have to collect revenue somehow...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 12, 2020, 09:48:57 PM
Well, this might get touted as "Fake News", here is this:
Trump allegedly asked Fauci if officials could let coronavirus 'wash over' US

Quote


President Trump reportedly asked Anthony Fauci, the nation’s leading infectious disease expert and a key member of the White House’s coronavirus task force, whether U.S. officials could allow the coronavirus pandemic to “wash over” the country, The Washington Post reported.

During a coronavirus task force meeting in the Situation Room last month, on the same day Trump ordered travel to be suspended from the United Kingdom and Ireland in an effort to stem the spread of the virus, Trump reportedly asked Fauci, “Why don’t we let this wash over the country?”

Two anonymous sources familiar with the president’s comments confirmed the question to the newspaper.
https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/492390-wapo-trump-allegedly-asked-fauci-if-officials-could-let-coronavirus
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 13, 2020, 04:52:16 AM
Well, with income and sales down, they have to collect revenue somehow...

What do you think people wiĺ do once restrictions are lifted? Right, go on a shopping spree. :P
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 13, 2020, 08:05:36 AM
Maybe... 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/dumped-milk-smashed-eggs-plowed-160839647.html (https://www.yahoo.com/news/dumped-milk-smashed-eggs-plowed-160839647.html)
Quote
Dumped Milk, Smashed Eggs, Plowed Vegetables: Food Waste of the Pandemic
In Wisconsin and Ohio, farmers are dumping thousands of gallons of fresh milk into lagoons and manure pits. An Idaho farmer has dug huge ditches to bury 1 million pounds of onions. And in South Florida, a region that supplies much of the Eastern half of the United States with produce, tractors are crisscrossing bean and cabbage fields, plowing perfectly ripe vegetables back into the soil.
Milk is also getting dumped here as well
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 13, 2020, 08:17:17 PM
Well, with income and sales down, they have to collect revenue somehow...

What do you think people wiĺ do once restrictions are lifted? Right, go on a shopping spree. :P

We have an Amazon warehouse 1.5 hours away. Our shopping hasn't slowed that much.

When restrictions are lifted, I plan to get my dog groomed.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 14, 2020, 09:01:26 PM
Say, is hEt set up so she's safe at work?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 15, 2020, 02:58:32 AM
Say, is hEt set up so she's safe at work?

It's complicated.  But she's about as safe as possible, and NORMALLY wouldn't be involved with anyone they suspect as positive, but there are risky treatments and people that aren't symptomatic, so she still has to gear up for some things. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 15, 2020, 03:24:17 PM
Complicatated…

Some results of the general Covid-19 testing program for nursing homes are made public (testing was done in 85 nursing homes sofar). The results sofar? In general one-sixth of the people working or staying there are infected. Doesn't necessarily mean they're sick or showing symptoms, but they have the virus at this particular time.

If that's an indication of how many people are or have been infected in the outer world, it would mean the virus has a broader spread then the flu last winter. On average half a million people get the flu each winter in Belgium. one-sixth  of the population comes close to 2 million.

This morning at work during briefing we were told an employee on our site (from my shift) had a confirmed Covid-19 infection... 3 weeks ago. ::)
Bit of a bummer to hear something like that with such a delay. They could as well told us nothing. Guess what, I saw suspiciously more workers wearing mouth masks today. ;lol
So, my chances of having been infected and not shown signs of it have increased.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 15, 2020, 04:08:42 PM
This info is up to date as of March 15, or a month old.  It is a bit dry at times and does get into upper levels of info that you would expect to have in a graduate level lecture, but it is still very informative about this virus.  Enjoy...


And yeah, I watched the whole thing...  and I'm thinking about adding them to my patrion outlay (will be #3).
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 16, 2020, 12:03:16 AM
Complicatated…


If you want a thesis on how things have changed over the last 3 years to get to where they are, I can go into it. 

Schools are now officially closed for the rest of the year.  I'm hearing rumblings that we're expecting this to extend as far as August at work.  Alec was supposed to be graduating this year, and is rather bummed about the lack of ceremony going to happen. 

I've between the 2 in school, (Kyle was already all online so not impacted) there's been the range of response from teachers one would expect with some absolutely THRIVING at the online schooling to others that have just completely given up and those that are trying but technologically challenged. 

Alec's AP courses specifically are attempting to figure out how to even do the testing this year, and he had a couple of professional prep classes that are struggling with the same.  One was for getting into chef's course work for instance, and it's really hard to test someone's cooking when they are stuck at home.  Yet the test is the entire reason for the course, so kinda needs to be done. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 18, 2020, 09:44:29 PM
Mostly for Uno:
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 18, 2020, 09:50:33 PM
Yeah, the local church posted that one.  I'd briefly considered reposting, but figured most my neighbors would have issues with such a thing. 

Legitimately, however, we had the 5+ earthquake like 2 weeks back.  IT WAS RIGHT UNDER THE LOCAL CHURCH OF SATAN BUILDING.  Or at least right under the same street.  We've had multiple 4+ aftershocks since, one just 2 days ago even.  All centered under their headquarters.  I've been giving them [poop] asking what hell they have unleashed. 

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 19, 2020, 10:35:54 AM
;lol

Why do they even call Satan's place of worship a 'church'? I'm sure they could've come up with a more interesting label. 'Lair' would already do.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 19, 2020, 04:43:00 PM
I wonder how the multitude of kids, whom only excel at Gym Classes, are doing with the online schooling (more than likely, the lack there of)?  And how many kids will get rubber-stamped on to their next grade level and/or graduation this year?  Which, I imagine, the ones WHOM have worked hard to advance likely feel that this belittles their accomplishments...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 19, 2020, 11:23:32 PM
I was wondering about this myself. I suspect that the rubber stamp will be the norm, to avoid further psychological trauma. Only districts with standardized testing requirements for promotion/graduation will be the exception.



Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 20, 2020, 12:14:38 AM
Hmm, administering those test will also be problematic.  Wonder what GK thinks about this?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 20, 2020, 02:38:15 PM
;lol

Why do they even call Satan's place of worship a 'church'? I'm sure they could've come up with a more interesting label. 'Lair' would already do.

Because the church of satan is all about pissing off christians, and calling it a church might upset more people.  They are officially atheists who just use the symbology and 'freedom of religion' to protest against (largely christian) religious control over the gubment. 

For instance, they formed the Halloween in Summer festival, specifically to coincide with the July 24th state holiday (to celebrate the state's LDS pioneers). 

Then some jerk who cared more about the Halloween than the protest aspect got involved and got it moved to June so that it wasn't competing with another holiday and it's become big business but lost the protest aspect.   ;cute  So the church tried to cancel it all together, and the city stepped in to take control. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 21, 2020, 01:55:22 PM

Haven't really read up on your lockdown situation, but FL does seem to be a dollar late and a day short in implementing their shutdowns to where it MAY have already been too late.  And maybe even too sparse.  I not in particular you are accessing a library, where ours here in Utah have been shuttered for weeks.  Part of this is TEH CHURCH at least seems to be taking it seriously (to a degree, I could rattle on with that), which puts pressure on our officials to do the same. 

In perhaps a twist of irony, TEH CHURCH taking things seriously might have just exacerbated the problem a hundred fold. 

Weeks ago, just after the big panic, they closed the churches and temples and rolled out essentially worship from home orders.  (though given the fragmented organizational structure, this latter was left up to bishops and stake presidents, so I'm sure it's inconsistent from area to area)  These actions very much drove home to the members that this was to be taken SERIOUSLY and was going to be long term, and people really settled in for the most part.

HOWEVER, TEH CHURCH was not yet done, and more recently they recalled their missionaries.  So, we've had HUNDREDS of kids returning home.  But that's not in itself what's going to cause the problem, and it will be hard for those outside Utah to understand, but these kids are pretty much played hail the conquering hero and paraded around when they return under normal situations. 

And the idiot members are still trying to do that.  HUGE crowds waiting for these kids at the airport.  Parties once their home.  Utah's probably going to blow up in the next 2 weeks. 


As expected, our numbers of new cases had begun to decline, but are now on the rise again.  And now we've got these protest gatherings, that's going to bump everything up in a week or two again...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 21, 2020, 08:55:16 PM
;lol

Why do they even call Satan's place of worship a 'church'? I'm sure they could've come up with a more interesting label. 'Lair' would already do.

Because the church of satan is all about pissing off christians, and calling it a church might upset more people.  They are officially atheists who just use the symbology and 'freedom of religion' to protest against (largely christian) religious control over the gubment. 

For instance, they formed the Halloween in Summer festival, specifically to coincide with the July 24th state holiday (to celebrate the state's LDS pioneers). 

Then some jerk who cared more about the Halloween than the protest aspect got involved and got it moved to June so that it wasn't competing with another holiday and it's become big business but lost the protest aspect.   ;cute  So the church tried to cancel it all together, and the city stepped in to take control.

UnO, how could you! :'(

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 23, 2020, 12:49:56 AM
Another article which frames Covid-19 as a blood infection , rather than as a viral pneumonia.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/22/coronavirus-blood-clots/?cv-campaign=4fda08e2fbca0387b958bb44bf5cc2b6&utm_campaign=wp_to_your_health&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_tyh

They find that asthmatic patients aren't as vulnerable as expected, but patients with hypertension and cardiovascular diseases are suddenly dying. The mechanism is unknown, but it disrupts clotting factors, but in the opposite way as Ebola. So people will suddenly die from blood clots, or gradually die from an accumulation of small blood clots in the lungs.  It also appears as complications in childbirth.

The first article I read along these lines some weeks ago suggested that the virus was stealing Iron ions from red blood cells, and that the resulting low blood O2 caused breathing problems, but it was more helpful for the ER doctors to think of it as CO poisoning or altitude sickness, rather than viral pneumonia.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 23, 2020, 11:02:39 AM
This might be part of the reason that an Ebola Anti-Viral Medication is showing promising results   in therapies.

I don't know it you have heard, but some cats have tested positive for the Virus...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 23, 2020, 09:22:36 PM
Yes, I've heard that. I haven't heard that it harms them yet.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 24, 2020, 04:26:41 AM
The Lions and Tigers are having severe Respiratory distress, last that I had heard (around the time I made the above post).  I haven't looked any further.
The main problem that I am seeing, after watching a Univ of Arizona program about the 1917 Spanish Flu and how it had become such a killer ( ), is the fact that it seemed to easily jump into another animal.  C-19 is believed to have come from Bats, crossed the barrier to some sort of Lizard (or something) and then into us.  Each time it makes those crosses, it mutates some.  Who's to say that it either won't cross back or maybe into some other animal, before it comes back to us at some time in the future?  This worries me...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 28, 2020, 06:00:43 AM
Finally the USA is #1 in the world in something that is actually positive- recoveries.

Meanwhile I am very sorry to see that things must be pretty brutal in Belgium. While I have heard/read nothing in terms of news, the numbers are bad-

In terms of deaths/M population they lead the world with 622, followed by Spain with 503, Italy with 446, France with 357 and the UK with 311.

Well that's not true. The worst reported deaths/M population is San Marino with 1208 and then there is Andorra with 518. I think of them as cities rather than countries, but looking San Marino up on Wikipedia, it had a smaller population than my suburb, which is officially still classified as a "village."  I guess people hang on to tradition in both hemispheres.

How are things, Geo?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 28, 2020, 06:17:41 PM
How are things, Geo?

Actually, in general things seem to be going in the right direction here. ;) Curve is slowly but decidedly going down. New hospitalized cases are in the very low hundreds (hundred-two hundred/day the last couple days) compared to above mid-hundreds at the peak.
I know the deaths/M look bad for my country, but that is (even according to international press) because of the brutal honesty of how statistics are compiled here.
It seems most (if not all) other countries only count a decease as corona-related if there was a prior positive test on such a patient, and in some countries even if only deceased in hospital (I'm looking at you, Netherlands). Over here, likely Corona-related deaths are put in the tally as well. If a person died in say an elderly home where other confirmed deceases are Corona-related, they are included. Some prelimary research into excess deaths over the general mortality trend in our population seem to vindicate the statistic method used here.

All in all, I would say the rest of the world underrates the actual deathtoll of this virus in their own countries.

I think I posted it some time ago I expected a disaster was about to happen in elderly homes, but over half of the total deaths have now happened there, not in the hospitals. Sofar roughly 4,000  elder people have in effect died before their time, however short this extra time might otherwise have been. With the test program in elderly homes in full swing now, indications are that less then 5% of staff and about 15% of the residents are/were infected. And tests there are still prioritized on people showing a symptom like coughing or fever.

Government has made announcements of reducing measures. Next week all workers may go back to work, under restrictions like mouth masks/cover if the 'social distance' of 1,5 m (5 feet :P ) can't be guaranteed, but teleworking is still required if possible. Compulsory masks on all public transport -and infrastructure (railway stations for instance). On May 11th all shops may open, again with restrictions like number of people/square meter and masks. Mainly direct-contact professions (predominantly meant for barber shops) and horeca sector are still closed. All this is under the condition that number of new infections keeps dropping.
On a personal level, my physiotherapist takes less urgent cases again, so today I had a first session for my tennis elbow. :)
The company I work for seem to have found a steady supplier of mouth masks because as of today we are obliged to wear one most of the time at work (canteen is excepted). Masks were available before but most people  (me included) didn't use them. Now its compulsory.
And government plans to sent at least one fabric mask to each and every one citizen in the country. I just read the Ministry of Defense is tasked with ordering 12 million masks...


Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 28, 2020, 11:34:36 PM
US has more than 1 million confirmed cases...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 28, 2020, 11:49:57 PM
A Dog has gotten the virus
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 29, 2020, 06:53:56 PM
What's next? A wolf?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 29, 2020, 11:39:36 PM
Over 60,000 deaths in US.  More than the number lost in the Vietnam War.

Redesovir (sp) has showed very good promise in treatment. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 30, 2020, 02:27:35 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-norfolk-52456180


Honest opinions please, should the police even be involved here? 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 30, 2020, 03:38:00 PM
Maybe to just make sure that the person isn't stalking someone while wearing it...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on April 30, 2020, 03:49:52 PM
Quote
the person has been dressing this way for about two weeks for their daily walk
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on April 30, 2020, 03:56:29 PM
and the coppers finally noticed...  Although, small village police in England can be boring,,,
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on April 30, 2020, 06:07:29 PM
and the coppers finally noticed...  Although, small village police in England can be boring,,,

Not Midwest police troopers? ;)
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Lorizael on April 30, 2020, 07:01:35 PM
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-norfolk-52456180


Honest opinions please, should the police even be involved here?

Big no from me. The plague doctor ain't hurtin' nobody. Police should mind their own business.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 30, 2020, 08:10:11 PM
I feel the police were right to simply inform the man he was scaring children. I'm presuming his intent was to scare, shame,  or amuse adults much like the guy wearing a grim reaper costume on Florida beaches. Me, I could see myself doing the same thing, but I wouldn't want to scare kids who are probably already terrified of losing their parents.  Hopefully he stops while both he and the complaining parents are still anonymous, before an angry Dad follows him home, and things escalate.

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on May 01, 2020, 02:40:07 PM
To be perfectly honest, I'm surprised there hasn't been a littler MORE of this kind of thing...but apparently it's more 'cool' to take your guns to protest the whole staying at home thing instead. 

Can we go back to the scary clown idiots?  They were much more amusing than the current idiots. 

(I'm legitimately starting to think the scary clown thing was a test run for all the current social media created idiocy from anti vax to virus protesting.  If not a test run itself, it certainly showed the flaw in the system and exposed how many of the population are easily influenced into believing [poop].)
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 02, 2020, 06:19:10 PM
This has been a Test...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 02, 2020, 06:26:52 PM
In case no one has seen it yet, this had come out last week (4/21)
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/coronavirus-pandemic/?utm_source=email&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share_button
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on May 02, 2020, 08:20:00 PM
I was surprised I didn't bounce on a region wall for trying to watch the documentary.
Thanks for sharing. :)
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on May 06, 2020, 01:40:44 AM
Here's a story about New York city transit workers.  What I find frustrating about it is that the workers had good ideas about making themselves safer, but management didn't listen.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/05/opinion/coronavirus-nyc-subway.html
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on May 07, 2020, 07:12:31 PM
Several interesting things this week, all relating to corporate america in differing degrees.

Mars, Hershey, and Spirit have teamed up and are focus grouping ideas for social distancing halloween.  From online trick or treating with kids getting photos of their costume online and getting mailed the candy direct from the candy companies to various forms of drive throughs and a return of the costume parades of the 50s instead of door to door. 

I've been assigned to the board discussing how work handles things going forward as well.  This has included daily cluster stroms of seemingly random suggestions from various expert sources. 

The one theme that seems to be standard though is a plan for a new normal.  As in a need to shift entire floorplans to cope with future quarantines.  I'm also on a panel of more than 10k across the nation discussing what's working and what isn't.  The two big things that continue to come out as working are the distancing and facemasks.  Everywhere that hasn't made those mandatory ends up having instances where entire teams or areas get infected. 

Here in Utah, we were up to about 80% mask wearing, but the gov loosened the restrictions last weekend and now it's under 50%.  And they're trying to start football practice...

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on May 07, 2020, 11:01:01 PM
After this weekend, restrictions will be loosened again. Shops open on the 11th. A limited amount of visitors at home is allowed, but only the same 4 people, and those are not allowed to visit other families.
The last couple days new infected cases requiring hospitalisation stayed below hundred. Same with the daily number of fatalities.
Public transport is compulsary masked, and advised in public. The 1,5 m (5 feet) distance stays in force, and gatherings are still forbidden.
And my physiotherapy is painfull. :(
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on May 07, 2020, 11:46:49 PM

I start waxing philosophical and wondering if any permanent good can come of this.  We are rapidly proving working from home is quite possible.  Could it become the norm, eliminating all this office space and allowing affordable housing, or lord forbid even returning some farmland?   

It could very well be that post-covid-19 the companies that recover the best are the ones that master this work from home and incorporate it going forward.  There is a monumental amount of savings to be had if corporate america would embrace it.  Not to mention the energy savings as a whole. 

Yet it's also becoming quite clear to me, that the cube farms are strictly about CONTROL, not about being the best scenario to do the work.

I've been thinking about this, too.

*Even though I'm out of the workforce, I hope the lesson is learned that many meetings could be replaced by an e-mail and some answered questions.

*I'm hoping that affordable higher education at home becomes a thing, at least for the initial years of courses.

*I've long been concerned that there is very little shared experience to make people see each other as "We" & "Us" rather than "they" and "them." Maybe this will humanize everybody enough for a few years to prevent a war, or help us treat people in our own countries with mutual respect again.

*I'm thinking that there is huge potential here to end the anti-vax movement.

* Medical Reform- FDA, healthcare, health insurance, and emergency preparedness.

* That a lot of people will get in the habit of washing hands, not touching their faces, coughing or sneezing into their elbows or the insides of their coats, improving public safety in the long run.

* That we will adopt he Vulcan "live long and prosper" greeting as the new standard.

* That companies will provide paid sick leave, rather than force sick employees to work.

* We probably won't be blowing on entire birthday cakes any more.

* Then there's the matter of bathrooms. The German foot operated toilets always made more sense to me. Sure, there's the new bidet toilets, but is a key pad or a remote any better than a chrome handle? I foresee an app that people can use with their own phones, or else a voice control. Voice controlled sinks, too. 

* I also foresee everybody carrying their own stylus for touchscreens and key pads as part of the new normal. That, and more things being done with smart phones.

* I wonder if copper door handles will make a comeback because of their anti-microbial properties. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 09, 2020, 05:03:20 PM
I've been assigned to the board discussing how work handles things going forward as well. 
Congratulations, I guess...  Although it's more on you, you might be able to keep others safe, as long as you keep the clowns down... 
Quote

[snip]

  The two big things that continue to come out as working are the distancing and facemasks.  Everywhere that hasn't made those mandatory ends up having instances where entire teams or areas get infected. 
All the more reason to make those things mandatory in the workplace until Vaccines(sp) come out
Quote

Here in Utah, we were up to about 80% mask wearing, but the gov loosened the restrictions last weekend and now it's under 50%.  And they're trying to start football practice...
And they don't wash their hands either.  I would have them get sanitizing stations place throughout the facility and make sure they stay filled.  Needs to be: if you pass one, you use it...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on May 09, 2020, 07:02:51 PM

And they don't wash their hands either.  I would have them get sanitizing stations place throughout the facility and make sure they stay filled.  Needs to be: if you pass one, you use it...


It's sounding more and more that this particular point is not as strong as initially thought.  The large majority of cases seem to come from direct contact/violation of the 6' rule rather than secondary touching a dirty surface.  And sanitizer in particular is a double edged solution.  Washing is much more effective than sanitizer, yet sanitizer stations lower people's efforts to actually wash.

One study is suggesting only 30% workforce back to work at a time to maintain social distancing...essentially we'd need to go to 3 shifts with time to sanitize between shifts. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on May 09, 2020, 08:31:19 PM
One study is suggesting only 30% workforce back to work at a time to maintain social distancing...essentially we'd need to go to 3 shifts with time to sanitize between shifts.

At my workplace, it took management 2 weeks to work out a sequence that minimizes contact between the two main shifts and gave the sanitizing team (barely) time to disinfect equipment used by both shifts.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Elok on May 10, 2020, 03:44:04 AM
TIL that I, along with most of the rest of the pharmacy staff, was exposed and almost certainly infected back in late December.  The pharmacist thought it was strep at the time.  Several of us caught sick shortly after; my family felt crummy for a couple of days apiece, in shifts, in January.  I plan to get tested for antibodies soon to confirm, but tomorrow I'll call my Mom and give her a Mother's Day present of not having to worry about her asthmatic boy in healthcare anymore.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 10, 2020, 08:55:57 AM
late December?  a month before Seattle, but kind of ties in with the rapidity of the diversity or cases there as well...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Lorizael on May 10, 2020, 03:23:16 PM
TIL that I, along with most of the rest of the pharmacy staff, was exposed and almost certainly infected back in late December.  The pharmacist thought it was strep at the time.  Several of us caught sick shortly after; my family felt crummy for a couple of days apiece, in shifts, in January.  I plan to get tested for antibodies soon to confirm, but tomorrow I'll call my Mom and give her a Mother's Day present of not having to worry about her asthmatic boy in healthcare anymore.

Huh. How are you finding out now, and why wasn't it known sooner?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on May 10, 2020, 06:54:16 PM
Interesting. Please keep us posted.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Elok on May 11, 2020, 10:32:38 AM
The pharmacist was sick for some time, and they didn't test for COVID because back in December/January nobody tested for COVID.  Then she got in a car accident and couldn't come to work for a month and change (concussion).  In the meantime most of the pharmacy staff quit (work drama) and we got a new manager, and with everything going on letting everybody know wasn't her top priority.  I gather she herself didn't learn until the illness had already passed.  But the exact timeline is sketchy to me and I don't know when she found out.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on May 11, 2020, 01:35:07 PM
One study is suggesting only 30% workforce back to work at a time to maintain social distancing...essentially we'd need to go to 3 shifts with time to sanitize between shifts.
At my workplace, it took management 2 weeks to work out a sequence that minimizes contact between the two main shifts and gave the sanitizing team (barely) time to disinfect equipment used by both shifts.

Yeah, we have an area that there's just simply no way to work from home we riddled that out almost immediately.  Took longer to get the cleaning contracts into place than actually getting the schedule worked out. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on May 11, 2020, 01:40:53 PM
https://www.deseret.com/utah/2020/5/6/21249823/was-coronavirus-at-sundance-guests-sick-film-festival-covid-19

Basically, it might have been circulating in Utah a lot longer than thought.  It makes sense considering that the areas hardest hit NOW would have been in the middle of this festival as well, they've just had it percolating for long before we were testing. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on May 11, 2020, 10:12:21 PM
Here's an article from Vanity Fair. It's based upon both modeling and circumstances in far eastern nations. If 80 or 90 % of the population wears masks, the virus stops spreading. If only 30-40% wear them, they are useless.

[If 80% of Americans Wore Masks, COVID-19 Infections Would Plummet, New Study Says
There’s compelling evidence that Japan, Hong Kong, and other East Asian locales are doing it right and we should really, truly mask up—fast.]

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/masks-covid-19-infections-would-plummet-new-study-says
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 12, 2020, 05:41:45 PM
I use a Bandana, but in this week alone, I've seen about 1/3 using anything, if that at all. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 13, 2020, 04:20:56 AM
Traces of C-19 in Semen, OY!!!
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on May 13, 2020, 04:03:33 PM
Not to mention feces!
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on May 15, 2020, 04:01:12 AM
Well, we managed to make the national Coronavirus news, here in Wisconsin. The governor's stay at home order had been extended, and we were scheduled for reopening the day after Memorial Day. A court challenge said that he exceeded his authority. The state supreme court determined that his emergency powers should be limited to 60 days. Beyond that, he would need legislative approval. I can understand that. I mean, I wouldn't want Trump to have unilateral open ended emergency authority. The state is divided, much like the rest of the country, with the legislature, and the  Supreme court being GOP, and the Governor being a Democrat.  I didn't vote for the guy, but I agree with what he is trying to do.

SO- rather than have a planned restart, or one that followed CDC guidelines, instead we had a sudden end to the stay at home orders ( except for certain cities like Milwaukee and Madison where the mayors/councils have other restrictions in place.). The politically powerful Tavern Owner's Assoc. was previously making promises that they'd be careful if only we let them re-open on a limited basis. Well, the order was terminated, and the bars fed the pent up demand.  Not at reduced capacity, not with 6' of separation, not with masked bartenders, No with plexiglass barriers.   

Today at the garden store, I didn't see a single employee with a mask.  Seeing as how we already had additional cases due to the election, and due to protestors who mingled without masks, I don't think this will end well.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 15, 2020, 04:02:28 PM
Well, hopefully the ones that get sick are Trump Supporters, but they likely won't get sick...

Stay safe dude.  I'm seeing about 1/2 here and letting people whom might be in positions to accept and share the info about the effectivity(sp) of 80% plus mask use (see link in above post) with keeping the virus down.

But will Trump saying that it will just magically disappear, there are people whom are taking that as gospel...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on May 15, 2020, 05:07:24 PM
But will Trump saying that it will just magically disappear, there are people whom are taking that as gospel...

Bleach them!
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 15, 2020, 05:45:54 PM
You know, I've still seen a low availability of bleach on the shelves, whenever I go into the store...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 15, 2020, 10:23:47 PM
Some interesting info coming out about some of the survivors whom had it bad.  Reports of Dementia while in the ICU as well as some of it continuing after they get released.


Check it out UnO
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 15, 2020, 10:41:02 PM
Some discussions in WPC discord, apocalypse channel:

Arnelos on 5/13
Quote
Pretty sure my wife and I both had it in February.  Symptoms match.  But Virginia is 50th out of 50 states in testing availability, so no way to know for sure yet.
I mean, we both lost sense of smell and taste w/o nasal congestion.  It was puzzling at the time.  Came with fever and just being tired ALL the time (probably low oxygen). None of that made sense until we heard the COVID symptoms.
Could be something else, too, but the symptoms do line up
And our kids basically never got sick
I'm Lazy and I S*ck (Conmcb25... will use Con later):
Quote
Or your kids and or wife had it but were asymptomatic.
Myself:
Quote
Some of the things that are happening to kids after they recover is frightening
that and some of the Rashes on places, like your toes are not looking good, either.
this is a really bad non-bug (bug would be a live bacteria, so...)
Arnie (Arnelos):
Quote
Rashes are super common on little kids like toddlers for allergy reasons.  That'd be really difficult to isolate
Myself:
Quote
My Infectious Disease Doctor at the VA is helping to qualify a Mass Anti-body test that will allow screening when a blood draw is done.  Should be ready to go in a week or two, from what I was told.  So, I'm holding off of getting my Regular Blood Draw and have them check for anti-bodies at the same time as my HIV Viral Load & CD4/8 counts...
I did hear about a new Shingles Vaccine that is safe for me to use now, is not the partial live version, that my T-Cells were too low to safely take.  But this new one will allow me to do so...
Con:
Quote
Well I hope the VA test works and then you got a good chance to know. I am waiting for them to become more widespread and FDA approved. And from what I have been reading if you dont get the test shortly after having symptoms, it doesnt really work anyway. So my wife for instance probably shouldnt bother on a test from symptoms 5 months ago. I am just going to keep my head down and hope we get an anti - viral by early this fall. I really really should travel for work this summer. (I should have done it already.) but I dont know how I am going to pull it off.
Myself:
Quote
that is the Nasal Swap test, that shows that you have an active infection.  Once your over it, it would show a negative result.
but the anti body test would have that you have had it/been exposed.  Although, at this time, it does not show the level of anti-body presence in the body (although, I'm hoping that they are also working on how to quantify that as well) or what levels would be effective against re-infection, especially if it mutates radically (which it might have already done...)
Neirai the Forgiven:
Quote
we've known about the Pink Eye-like version for a while. My father had something that looked like pink eye but he's been tested for COVID-19 twice. Both negative.

Today, Con to Arnie:
Quote
"GODOY: Well, so loss of sense of smell and of taste, because taste is really, really closely related to smell, that symptom has actually emerged as a really strong indicator of infection with COVID-19. There's research from both the U.S. and the U.K. suggesting that six out of 10 people who report the symptom end up testing positive for the virus.

So if you are experiencing loss of smell, doctors I spoke with say that alone should prompt you to seek testing. But there's also good news, and that's that people who lose their sense of smell tend to have a milder course of the disease. There's also certain skin conditions that are emerging as signs of infection like chilblains, which are, like, purple, pink or red bumps or lesions in the toes. And they often are accompanied by swelling."
That was NPR talking to "disease experts". The good news is if the wife and yourself both lost sense of smell you probably had a mild case. If you both had it, I bet your kids did as well, just very mild so you thought it was something else or asymptomatic is my guess. Ive heard stuff where if someone in a household gets it, everyone does, almost impossible to avoid. And thats where most of the "community infections' come from.
Arnie:
Quote
That is precisely what we believe
Trouble is, Virginia is the worst state in the entire U.S. for testing availability, so we have no way to know
I did have a case of pink eye, back in Mid Feb, that had gone away without any pink eye meds.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 15, 2020, 10:54:28 PM
One Unexpected effect of C-19
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on May 16, 2020, 12:20:43 PM
Late March/early April the Narcotics Unit of the police in the port of Antwerp did report a significant increase of intercepted drugs.
Their theory was the cartels in South America tried to smuggle as much as possible in one go before transportation was curtailed.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on May 20, 2020, 09:14:38 AM
Just viewed an interview on the Covid situation in the US.
It sounds like what happened in my country, retirement homes are being hit full-on by the virus in the US.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 20, 2020, 11:40:46 PM
A lot more instances of Dementia from this, it appears as well.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 21, 2020, 09:44:09 PM
This aired on Tuesday

Frontlines: Inside Italy’s COVID War

Quote
FRANCESCA MANGIATORDI:

It’s 8 o’clock on March 17. I just finished my 12-hour shift, and what affected me most tonight? A lady asked me, crying, what was going to happen to her? Why was she there on a stretcher in the hallway with 15 others and only one toilet? There is no dignity anymore; we've lost the sense of humanity.

I don’t know what the aim is of working in this way. And in the end, the role of the doctor loses its meaning.
https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/inside-italys-covid-war/?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=streaming&utm_content=xxxx

Quote
FRANCESCA MANGIATORDI:

They’ll be a bed available in gynecology. But not for an hour. There's been a death and they're waiting for the cleaning. Yes, yes. COVID.

All the CT scans are practically the same now. They are all ugly. He's 35 years old. He's young! We’ll definitely have to admit him, since it's possible.

Unfortunately, I’m going to have to choose whether to admit him or an 85-year-old.

FEMALE VOICE:

What will you choose?

FRANCESCA MANGIATORDI:

The 35-year-old. We’ve had to make choices like this for a month now..
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on May 23, 2020, 05:48:18 AM
Several interesting things this week, all relating to corporate america in differing degrees.

Mars, Hershey, and Spirit have teamed up and are focus grouping ideas for social distancing halloween.  From online trick or treating with kids getting photos of their costume online and getting mailed the candy direct from the candy companies to various forms of drive throughs and a return of the costume parades of the 50s instead of door to door. 


Prop companies are going all in on 'just take one' candy drop items betting on something of a social distanced version of door to door trick or treat. 

Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on May 24, 2020, 11:27:03 AM
Positive cases still rising, and they're going to open the local amusement park.  What could go wrong? 

http://www.lagoonpark.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Guest-Expectations-for-Opening-5.22.pdf
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on May 24, 2020, 04:00:36 PM
Less then 50 deceased/day these last couple days. And new confirmed cases are less then three hundred/day.
More en more public life is returning, the next big hurdle will be the horeca. As things stand now they may open in two weeks.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 24, 2020, 07:06:04 PM
Some of the Tourist trap parks have reopened to 50% capacity and "strict" social distancing guidelines as wall as possibly checking for fever before entering.  We will see how it goes...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on May 26, 2020, 11:13:00 AM
Got a call from HR.  I was likely exposed on Thursday, though they won't give me a name so I can actually judge whether it's someone I was in close contact with or just someone on the same floor.  If it's just someone I might have touched the same doorknob as, I'm really not at all concerned.   However, I'm practically the only one in the office taking it seriously and actually wearing their mask.  (office, defined as the floor where my actual desk is, about 100 people during normal business...about 15 during Covid, the 800 employee workforce has various levels of serious depending on area)

Thursday was my only day in office last week, and my time in the actual area in question was fairly limited. 
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on May 26, 2020, 06:13:46 PM
In Belgium, if you're a comfirmed Covid case, you're supposed to be called by a call center asking for the names of people you've been in extended contact with a couple days before you were confirmed as infected.
Since the whole procedure of is supposed to be anonymous, I still wonder if there aren't people who forward names to get back to people they have a problem with. Supplying their name so these have to go in home quarantaine too.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 26, 2020, 09:56:35 PM
This was aired last week, but is still a thing...  Here's one for you Bearu...
opps, forgot the link...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Bearu on May 27, 2020, 12:05:14 AM
This was aired last week, but is still a thing...  Here's one for you Bearu...
opps, forgot the link...
The Corona virus displays the blatant inequality of healthcare access and other inequalities of society. I enjoyed the fact the narrator understood the ostentatious displays of wealth from the elites in the Corona virus outbreak remains an outrageous problem. Extremely rich people have owned private islands and land for centuries. Belgian King Leopold II's ownership of the Congo in the late 1880s illustrated a prominent example of private ownership of a nation under a private entity. These inequalities exist from the cruel system of inequality and exploitation under capitalism and people observe the inequalities in stark frequency under pandemic outbreaks and other natural disasters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Free_State (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congo_Free_State)
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on May 27, 2020, 12:46:51 AM
Got a call from HR.  I was likely exposed on Thursday, though they won't give me a name so I can actually judge whether it's someone I was in close contact with or just someone on the same floor.  If it's just someone I might have touched the same doorknob as, I'm really not at all concerned.   However, I'm practically the only one in the office taking it seriously and actually wearing their mask.  (office, defined as the floor where my actual desk is, about 100 people during normal business...about 15 during Covid, the 800 employee workforce has various levels of serious depending on area)

Thursday was my only day in office last week, and my time in the actual area in question was fairly limited. 

They got back to me today and said that after interviewing the person, I no longer need to be under quarantine.  So, essentially they called everyone on the floor about the positive, then talked to the guy to determine whom he actually come in contact with. 

This actually demonstrates a shift in the company policy as the first presumed positive case earlier this year they just locked everyone on the floor down until the guy's tests come back negative.  (3 tests all negative 24 hours apart no less) 

We had a second confirmed case at another facility, and they shut the entire facility for a week, put everyone that had been in office on 2 weeks quarantine. 

Here it's a smaller space and they're letting everyone except a select number he names as close contact go about their business. 

Like I said, I was not at all worried about sharing a doorknob with my normal handwashing to begin with, I haven't been using the break rpoom at all since this started, wear my mask whenever I leave my space, and pack all my own water in, so other than 3 people who think masks are stupid still like to chat and hang out, I really wasn't worried.   I'd already eliminated those three people by the time they called today.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 27, 2020, 01:15:13 AM
Great news all around
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on May 28, 2020, 06:42:18 PM
I decided to look at the stats after hearing debate about national strategies.

Sweden, who is basically taking the "let's get it over with approach," has 423 deaths/million population.

Densely populated Japan, who has high compliance mask wearing, has 7 deaths/million.

New Zealand, who took a strict lockdown approach, has 4 deaths/million.

For comparison, 1)Belgium 810, 2) Andorra 660, 3) Spain 580, 4) UK 558, 5) Italy 548, 6) France 448, 7)Sweden 423,
8) Netherlands 345, 9) Ireland 331, 10) USA 310

In retrospect, I wish we'd taken the Japanese approach, but I realize we are as contrary as the Italians and doomed to a similar fate.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on May 28, 2020, 07:39:44 PM
For comparison, 1)Belgium 810, 2) Andorra 660, 3) Spain 580, 4) UK 558, 5) Italy 548, 6) France 448, 7)Sweden 423,
8) Netherlands 345, 9) Ireland 331, 10) USA 310

As I pointed out before, Belgium is about the only country which includes 'suspected' deaths as well in its official tally.
IIRC, roughty 3 quarters of the reported deaths were confirmed through a positive Covid-19 test. The rest were added because those people deceased in a place were the virus was on the lose and, I suppose, showed symptoms.

According to this (https://www.ft.com/content/6b4c784e-c259-4ca4-9a82-648ffde71bf0) article of the Financial Times, we're a couple places lower on the scale.
The article tried to compare excess deaths compared to expected deaths over a given timeframe.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on May 29, 2020, 03:47:18 AM
Again, my hat is off to Belgium.

Those of us living in countries led by strong men - China, Russia, North Korea, Iran, Turkey, UK, USA... don't have the benefit of transparency and accuracy.

It is estimated that while we have recently officially surpassed the 100K dead landmark, it is very likely undercounted by 30,000 or so in simple excess deaths. Then again, the lockdown so diminished traffic deaths that most of the insurance companies are issuing rebate checks.   I'm also pretty sure that workplace related deaths and school shootings are way down, too.  We'll have to wait for the actuaries to sort it out, but in the meantime Chito Mussolini wants to focus on the positive and complain about the dead people who couldn't get tested being tallied.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on May 29, 2020, 06:04:33 PM
I decided to look at the stats after hearing debate about national strategies.

Sweden, who is basically taking the "let's get it over with approach," has 423 deaths/million population.

Densely populated Japan, who has high compliance mask wearing, has 7 deaths/million.

New Zealand, who took a strict lockdown approach, has 4 deaths/million.

For comparison, 1)Belgium 810, 2) Andorra 660, 3) Spain 580, 4) UK 558, 5) Italy 548, 6) France 448, 7)Sweden 423,
 8) Netherlands 345, 9) Ireland 331, 10) USA 310

In retrospect, I wish we'd taken the Japanese approach, but I realize we are as contrary as the Italians and doomed to a similar fate.
Thing is, we STILL need to be taking the same approach as Japan, when it comes to Masks, moving forward.  So that, not only will it help when it comes to future spikes but helping with keeping down the spread.  THIS way, we can reopen larger Events, sooner.
Yesterday, I spoke to my Brother.  He is at work and as a Rabid Republican, he scoffs at the mere mention of using masks and thinks that this has all be a complete waste of time. He did not know about the Presentation of the virus with "Pink Eye" nor about "Covid Toes" or anything else, but you better not tell me to wear a mask....  I just hope that his two Grand kids don't come down with this, because of the things that have been popping up with some children, after they have gotten over it...
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 02, 2020, 09:24:57 PM
Another article which frames Covid-19 as a blood infection , rather than as a viral pneumonia.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/22/coronavirus-blood-clots/?cv-campaign=4fda08e2fbca0387b958bb44bf5cc2b6&utm_campaign=wp_to_your_health&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_tyh

They find that asthmatic patients aren't as vulnerable as expected, but patients with hypertension and cardiovascular diseases are suddenly dying. The mechanism is unknown, but it disrupts clotting factors, but in the opposite way as Ebola. So people will suddenly die from blood clots, or gradually die from an accumulation of small blood clots in the lungs.  It also appears as complications in childbirth.

The first article I read along these lines some weeks ago suggested that the virus was stealing Iron ions from red blood cells, and that the resulting low blood O2 caused breathing problems, but it was more helpful for the ER doctors to think of it as CO poisoning or altitude sickness, rather than viral pneumonia.

Here's an article which frames it as a vascular disease, and says that statins are protective. Well, at least I've got unused bottles of those lying around.
https://elemental.medium.com/coronavirus-may-be-a-blood-vessel-disease-which-explains-everything-2c4032481ab2

[In a paper published in April in the scientific journal The Lancet, Mehra and a team of scientists discovered that the SARS-CoV-2 virus can infect the endothelial cells that line the inside of blood vessels. Endothelial cells protect the cardiovascular system, and they release proteins that influence everything from blood clotting to the immune response. In the paper, the scientists showed damage to endothelial cells in the lungs, heart, kidneys, liver, and intestines in people with Covid-19.
“The concept that’s emerging is that this is not a respiratory illness alone, this is a respiratory illness to start with, but it is actually a vascular illness that kills people through its involvement of the vasculature,” says Mehra.]
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on June 02, 2020, 10:23:07 PM
which is not good.  I wonder how deep it got into the people whom were Asymptomatic?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Geo on June 03, 2020, 02:29:53 AM
which is not good.  I wonder how deep it got into the people whom were Asymptomatic?

I suppose asymptomatic people can only hope no visible symptoms means almost no viral effects.
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 03, 2020, 05:44:06 AM
Good question, E_T

Some people claim to not get sick. Some people never miss a day of school their whole life. I used to think that it was because they'd somehow mastered the whole "don't touch your face " thing.  I doubt that would be enough.

 Plant breeders select for disease resistance OR disease tolerance. I wonder if it isn't a tolerance approach in these people. A strong immune response would feel like allergies, so you probably wouldn't  consider yourself asymptomatic if you were sneezing, for example. Maybe the tolerant people simply replace damaged calls and heal more rapidly, rather than put the energy into fevers, white blood cells, inflammation, and other immune responses?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: E_T on June 03, 2020, 08:21:05 AM
or have the blood infections more then the pulmonary ones?
Title: Re: Corona Virus
Post by: Unorthodox on June 03, 2020, 04:49:16 PM
Positive cases still rising, and they're going to open the local amusement park.  What could go wrong? 

http://www.lagoonpark.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/Guest-Expectations-for-Opening-5.22.pdf


Case counts have accelerated since the state lowered restrictions, but Utah is having a really low hospitilization rate, so they're removing even more restrictions, basically completely open but 'encouraging social distancing' with no actual restrictions beginning this weekend, because even though it will see an uptick our hospitals are in a position to absorb it and the economy needs to get moving again.