Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Recreation Commons => Topic started by: Buster's Uncle on February 01, 2020, 08:17:55 PM

Title: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 01, 2020, 08:17:55 PM
Hey Rusty-

Is Rand Paul fired yet?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 02, 2020, 03:28:25 AM
I gave up on him a year or so ago … maybe two years. I figured out that his principled filibuster stands were really just an e-mail fund raiser scheme. He'd say the right things about foreign adventures becoming unconstitutional wars, or Homeland security overreach breaching The Constitution, but then he'd always vote with Trump and the GOP to confirm Jeff Sessions or fund Homeland, Defense, or whatever it was he was railing against. Maybe it was three years ago. Time flies.


More interesting is my wife, a die-hard Republican, who has contacted her GOP congressman and senator, first to beg them to stand up to Trump, then to tell them she was ashamed of them and that they were fired. Now she's talking about cleaning house in terms of money and votes (not volunteer hours, she's never done that ) to rid ourselves of every elected Trump supporter here. Richard Painter in neighboring MN is a current favorite of hers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Painter
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 04, 2020, 08:16:25 PM
PREDICTION
NH Primary
1) Sanders
2) Warren
3) Buttigieg
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 06, 2020, 05:37:36 PM
...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on February 10, 2020, 02:49:23 PM
I would just like to note that Biden called a woman a "lying, dog-faced pony soldier (https://slate.com/culture/2020/02/joe-biden-dog-faced-pony-soldier-john-wayne-tyrone-power.html)."  That is awesome and I would like to vote for him to continue our "addled old man who utters gibberish" political tradition.  Mmm, covfefe.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on February 10, 2020, 08:24:12 PM
Not exactly keen on Buttigieg, but I'd really like to have a president under 70.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 10, 2020, 11:32:29 PM
Not exactly keen on Buttigieg, but I'd really like to have a president under 70.

Doesn't seem like much to ask for, does it?

Age when elected
Kennedy- 43
Carter- 52
Clinton- 46
Obama- 47

I think Democrats do better with the change message when the messenger is younger.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 11, 2020, 12:11:45 AM
I've been remiss in publicly declaring  for Dr. Warren.  -Senator Sanders will do just fine, though.

Mylochka is VERY LOUDLY declaring her refusal to become attached to anyone in particular, as she's declared her intent to support whichever yellow dog eats the ham sandwich - Mother and I cannot disagree.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on February 11, 2020, 01:08:24 AM
I like Yang in the sense that I can read the entirety of his Wikipedia entry's list of positions without wanting to slap my forehead or punch him.  He won't win.  The competition all sucks; thankfully, none of their grandiose plans are going to make it to fruition, so they'll probably be about as inert as Trump, only making different noises.  Or Trump might win and continue being offensively inert.  Bleh.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on February 11, 2020, 01:47:14 AM
I like Yang in the sense that I can read the entirety of his Wikipedia entry's list of positions without wanting to slap my forehead or punch him.

This (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-11-20/robots-replacing-human-workers-isn-t-supported-by-data) economist claims you should be slapping your forehead.

Quote
...thankfully, none of their grandiose plans are going to make it to fruition, so they'll probably be about as inert as Trump, only making different noises.

My sincerest wish is for no noises.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Unorthodox on February 11, 2020, 02:22:30 AM
I would just like to note that Biden called a woman a "lying, dog-faced pony soldier (https://slate.com/culture/2020/02/joe-biden-dog-faced-pony-soldier-john-wayne-tyrone-power.html)."  That is awesome and I would like to vote for him to continue our "addled old man who utters gibberish" political tradition.  Mmm, covfefe.

That smells of bad 60s era hollywood exploitation western insult.  I sure as hell hope it was not uttered toward a Native American...(i'd have probably heard of THAT even in my avoid this nonsense stance)
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Unorthodox on February 11, 2020, 02:25:58 AM
Not exactly keen on Buttigieg, but I'd really like to have a president under 70.

Doesn't seem like much to ask for, does it?

Age when elected
Kennedy- 43
Carter- 52
Clinton- 46
Obama- 47

I think Democrats do better with the change message when the messenger is younger.

I didn't figure Sanders could win LAST time because of his increasing old man hunched back. . .  I don't see it improving.  Not that I particularly have a bias, mind, it's just not good on the tele. 
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on February 11, 2020, 01:27:59 PM
This (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-11-20/robots-replacing-human-workers-isn-t-supported-by-data) economist claims you should be slapping your forehead.
Well, it's not that I particularly believe in any of his UBI stuff; a little quick math suggests we couldn't come close to affording it.  But we can't come close to affording any of the other leprechaun nonsense the others are proposing, and UBI would have the benefit of not creating any particularly gigantic new bureaucracies, and he's talking about phasing out some existing bureaucracies to balance.  If this gets neutered into "just give the poor people money instead of this food stamp BS," as it potentially could, I'd be okay with that.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 12, 2020, 03:11:06 AM
It seems that Yang officially announced today that he would be suspending campaigning.

 Maybe his UBI couldn't compete with Steyer's promise of a $22/hour minimum wage. I hope to hear soon that Steyer paid all of his people that much, both in his hedge fund business and currently in his campaign. That would mean he has integrity and that it's a tested business model. On the other hand, if he's another "Do as I say, not as I do" politician, I'll hold him in contempt. It's not as if the country needs a billionaire with no government experience as a president. His money would have been better spent in senate races.

My prediction that Warren would finish second was largely based on her being a "next-door neighbor" to New Hampshire, and had the 2nd largest ground game in the state. Great advantages. She was hurt by a lackluster debate performance and being videoed arriving by private jet. I think she's in trouble without a top three finish, because she needs a lot of money to keep her 30 state campaign operating. I expect her to do less well in the south.

With about half of the vote counted, it looks as if only Bernie, Pete, and Amy will be awarded delegates for NH.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 12, 2020, 04:09:34 AM
Momma and I were watching primary coverage, and she told me early voting starts here Thursday.  We've mostly early voted since they started having it.

...I hesitated and said not that soon - the primary has never been up in the air by the time it got to NC in my entire adult life, and I've most always made my protest vote anyway - but I've never early voted when it wasn't a clear choice.  Like, it's looking sad for Dr. Warren ATM, but if Bernie looks to have it sewed up, or have blown it/gotten screwed again, I can go with my heart and back the nice teacher-lady Who Has A Plan For That - but I'd be fine with Senator Sanders if he needs me in a close race with one of the &^%$##@! DINO centrists...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on February 12, 2020, 12:41:15 PM
Yang was never going to make it.  Don't particularly like anybody else.  Especially not Bloomberg.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 12, 2020, 07:20:37 PM
I realized last night that I have never once voted to re-elect a president.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Unorthodox on February 13, 2020, 12:19:34 AM
So, and I'm just going to throw this out at face value. 

Ever since it began being tracked, Halloween mask sales have accurately predicted every election.  It's crazy and stupid, but no other metric has been as accurate. 

NO ONE IS GOING TO SALE MORE MASKS THAN TRUMP. 

Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on February 13, 2020, 01:01:23 AM
https://reason.com/2020/02/12/the-good-news-is-that-we-probably-wont-elect-a-socialist-the-bad-news-is-that-we-already-have-many-times/

Gallup poll found that, all else being equal, 69% of the population would be willing to vote for a candidate over seventy.  60% would vote for an atheist.  45% would vote for a socialist.  Bear in mind this is just hypothetical generic candidates, and willingness to even consider such a candidate.  Leaving aside everything else, this doesn't look great for Bernie.

I see two problems to avoid for the blue side.  On the one hand, they can nominate Bernie, and have Trump win by losing the center.  On the other, they can do everything they can to nominate anyone but Bernie, depress turnout among disgusted radicals, and lose to Trump that way.  Anyone-but-Bernie sounds like the safer tactic, because you could nominate the resuscitated corpse of Nixon and the radicals would still prefer him to Trump, but the safest bet at this junction would seem to be having someone beat Bernie to the nomination fairly.

It's also possible that, in a Bernie-Trump matchup, everyone in the middle would stay home and it would turn into a fight between diehards.  But I think Trump is only hardcore repulsive to the actually left-leaning.  I suspect the average American in the middle thinks he's an obnoxious ass but is more or less used to that and hasn't suffered significantly in the past four years.  If push comes to shove, abused immigrants and dead Yemenis don't vote.  Bernie's frank willingness to do things like ban private insurance sound scary.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 28, 2020, 03:51:17 PM
I'm strongly considering waiting until Tuesday to vote.  I'd really like to see how the wind's blowing after the SC primary.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: ColdWizard on February 28, 2020, 05:29:12 PM
I'm not sure if I should waste half an hour to vote for Gabbard or keep my streak of never having voted in a primary intact.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 28, 2020, 05:36:17 PM
I'm annoyed to have to chose between my heart and pragmatism.  -Also thrilled that, for the first time in my adult life, the primary is still in contention when it gets here and my vote might matter.  In 37 years, I think I've only cast protest votes in the primary.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on February 28, 2020, 08:41:06 PM
I'm still trying to pay less attention to reduce my primary source of stress, and my teeth aren't killing me.

I noticed that this weeks post-debate polls show some recovery for Biden. What was more interesting to me was that in head to head polls Bernie was the only one to beat Trump in PA and WI. SO... Biden rallies on concerns of electability, but Bernie is the only electable Democrat this week. Ironic.

I suppose we'll need a corona virus thread. I have a feeling that Trump administration mismanagement is going to make Bernie more appealing as the year rolls by. On the bright side, the virus may lead to more home schooling and sales for Elok's book. Of course to be fair, I'm always a pessimist with regard to the potential of a new disease.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on February 28, 2020, 09:30:29 PM
I do vote in favor of more sales for Elok's book.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on February 29, 2020, 04:10:28 AM
Good to know we can agree on something!

(I hope that, if the coronavirus is going to be killing a lot of old people and jacking up the economy, it can at least rile China enough to get Xi Jinping garroted)
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 02, 2020, 09:10:06 PM
Watch this from Wednesday.


This woman is purely charm and win.



-However, she was cheated out of contention weeks ago, and I have to vote Bernie tomorrow.  Real shame; Mom would like to see a woman president before she dies.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 03, 2020, 04:56:01 PM
Nate Silver of 538 has Biden at 95% chance of winning NC.

Screw it; I've been overthinking it, and am voting Warren after all.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 03, 2020, 06:37:30 PM
Done.

-My wimminz, BTW, said in the car that where they knew nothing in the state-level races, they looked for women - you would not spot Momma for a secret libber, but there it is.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on March 03, 2020, 07:23:27 PM
I'm really disappointed with the way the Democratic primary has turned out, but as I'm not a registered Democrat, I don't really have a right to complain.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 03, 2020, 08:27:33 PM
I am sick of the DINO wing running my party, yes.  Howabout we act as the opposition once in a while - being the "less rat" party doesn't cut it.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Unorthodox on March 04, 2020, 01:58:25 AM
https://www.standard.net/news/government/weber-county-move-to-election-day-voting-at-union-station/article_2d8fe875-6717-58d8-9a32-508b67c2315b.html

TLDR:  My county changed the polling locations to just one for the entire county for today.  There were no announcements or info out there that it was happening. 

If you're going to have ONE location, it's about as good as you could pick, being a central hub for most public transport, but it isolates a LOT of the poorer neighborhoods from easy access. 
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on March 04, 2020, 11:06:25 AM
https://www.standard.net/news/government/weber-county-move-to-election-day-voting-at-union-station/article_2d8fe875-6717-58d8-9a32-508b67c2315b.html

TLDR:  My county changed the polling locations to just one for the entire county for today.  There were no announcements or info out there that it was happening. 

If you're going to have ONE location, it's about as good as you could pick, being a central hub for most public transport, but it isolates a LOT of the poorer neighborhoods from easy access.

What'ya think? An attempt to let more people stay home instead of going to the Democratic pre-election?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Unorthodox on March 04, 2020, 03:10:04 PM
I honestly don’t get it.  I’ll wait for the aclu to issue their report on it.  It was labeled an experiment for the real thing. 
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 04, 2020, 07:07:32 PM
Hard to imagine what else it could be in a redder-than-red state...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2020, 05:42:05 PM
 :mad:
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Unorthodox on March 05, 2020, 06:22:32 PM
Hard to imagine what else it could be in a redder-than-red state...

Doesn’t quite track when the single location is the heart of downtown ogden with the low income housing and alienating the more rural areas the typically are more red.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on March 05, 2020, 07:38:56 PM
:mad:

Yeah.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2020, 08:37:35 PM
Brutha!

I have the satisfaction of I voted for who I thought would make the best president.  Too many people have and still are overthinking it, which is why Democrats have been losers for the last 40 years.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 05, 2020, 08:38:49 PM
P.S.   :'(
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 06, 2020, 03:40:48 AM
Quote
How Joe Biden Can Reach Progressives

If Democrats nominate Biden, he will need progressives’ support to beat Donald Trump. Here’s how he can get it.

by Noah Berlatsky
Mar 6


I’m a lefty socialist progressive, and like most lefty socialist progressives, I don’t much like Joe Biden. He was a segregationist in the 1970s, when he fought against busing and school integration. In 1988, he ran for president and plagiarized comments by a British Labour leader. In 1991, as head of the Senate Judiciary Committee, he helped put Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court when the nominee’s colleague Anita Hill accused him of sexual assault. He’s been bad on mass incarceration. He helped push through a law making it impossible to file for bankruptcy on student loans, supercharging the student debt crisis. He won’t stop putting his hands on women in public. I could go on.

Given his record, there is no way I and most other progressives will be enthusiastic about voting for Biden in November if he consolidates his lead and wins the primary. But there are things he could do that would make me feel simply resigned and melancholy rather than actively tormented by the thought of having to pull the lever for him.

Biden admittedly is doing well in the primary without much support from Sanders or Warren voters. But the general election will be tough and more progressive support might help him with fundraising. Sanders impressively raised $34.5 million from small donors in the last three months of 2019. Reaching out to the left could also help Biden with younger voters. Sanders crushed Biden 65% to 11% among voters under 30 in Texas, and 72% to 5% percent in California early tallies.

So what could Biden do to appeal to the left? First of all, he could start talking and acting like he cares about their concerns. If he would stop gratuitously insulting poor and marginalized millennials, that would be a start. It would also be great if he would listen to, and respond respectively to, the concerns of activists and advocates. He’s been promising to put out a disability plan for months, but it’s still AWOL, to the great frustration of the disability community.

To get progressive votes, Biden could start by asking for them. His team has not made much effort to do that.

Even better than asking progressives for their votes is thanking them for their work. The best way to do that is to adopt some of their policies and priorities. Obviously, Biden isn’t going to adopt the Sanders/Warren platform wholesale. But it would mean a lot to me, and I think to other people on the left, if he took one or two of their proposals and made them his own.

I would love, for example, to see Biden adopt Elizabeth Warren’s 2 percent wealth tax on fortunes over 50 million. Soaking the very rich is an extremely popular proposal, and not just with leftists. It has a 50 percent approval rating among Republicans, and would allow Biden to draw a stark contrast with real estate heir Donald Trump. The tax would generate some $4 trillion in income that could be used to fund Sanders’ free college proposal, or perhaps Warren’s exciting proposal for universal child care.

Hillary Clinton said that one of her regrets from 2016 was not embracing a shoot-the-moon, ambitious, inspiring progressive proposal as a campaign centerpiece (she was thinking in particular of universal basic income). There’s no reason for Biden to make the same mistake when Sanders, Warren, and others have proposed so many excellent progressive ideas during the primary.

Another obvious olive branch to progressives would be the vice presidency. VP picks often aim to appeal to certain demographic or geographic constituencies. But after Sanders’ strong showing two cycles in a row, it’s past time to give a progressive a shot at the office, and at a stronger presidential bid down the road. And much as a northerner might consider adding a someone from the south for electoral benefit, Biden can shore up an electoral weakness with a VP who appeals to the left.

Sanders and Warren themselves are both perhaps too old to serve as VP for the 77-year-old Biden. But former HUD secretary and current Warren surrogate Julian Castro would be an excellent choice. So would California Congressman and Sanders surrogate Ro Khanna. Even if the vice presidency goes elsewhere, it could help if Biden indicated some willingness to put Warren, Sanders, or other progressives — like, for example, Sanders supporter and surrogate, Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez — in his cabinet.

Finally, it would help Biden a great deal with progressives if he occasionally spoke as if he understood the urgency of our current moment. Faced with a Republican party that has cosigned the president’s efforts to solicit foreign election interference, and has actively tried to deny their own constituents healthcare, Biden has responded with chipper appeals to bipartisanship and vague gestures at conciliation. He claims the Republican party will return to decency if only Trump is voted out of office. He’s made noises about choosing a Republican running mate. He’s repeatedly said he wants to return politics to “normal.”

Some of these appeals are panders, not promises. There’s little chance a Republican would agree to run on a Democratic ticket, as Biden surely knows. But still, Biden seems most comfortable speaking the language of conciliation, and this is not a conciliatory time. Republicans are engaging in ambitious voter suppression efforts. Trump is filling the courts with judges who refuse to hold the executive even minimally accountable. Meanwhile the world barrels towards a climate crisis, and right-wing authoritarian governments gain strength around the globe.

Trump has done serious, frightening damage to our democracy. We need a president who will take aggressive steps not just to fix the damage, but to make sure those responsible are not able to do even worse the next time they get into office.

Progressives are not excited about Joe Biden because he seems to want only to beat Trump. But we want, at the very least, to make future Trumps impossible. If Biden could bring himself to say that, he’d go some way towards reconciling progressives to his presidency.
https://arcdigital.media/how-joe-biden-can-reach-progressives-85cbfdd2f9f4?source=friends_link&sk=57ee7b44d6cee4181c7d7afa6adc22e6&gi=84d4ba910831
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Unorthodox on March 06, 2020, 05:34:08 PM
Republican running mate?   Biden/Romney?   
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: ColdWizard on March 06, 2020, 06:55:43 PM
I'm not sure that Biden knows what state he's in at any given moment or which office he's running for.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 06, 2020, 11:59:01 PM
I really dunno.  Like, there's certainly vids going around showing him tripping over his tongue a lot like he's going stupid.  No doubt. 

-But, on the other hand, this is JOE BIDEN we're talking about - tripping over his tongue/misspeaking is sorta his signature going decades back.

-And on the gripping hand, dementia often creeps in, and exacerbating a mental blind spot already in place, subtly at first, would be typical.

---

I say this as someone who's been upset for days that we're probably getting Joe forced on us.  But not only has he honestly already been that tongue-tied way for a very long time, I do hope it's not the case, for all our sakes.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Unorthodox on March 07, 2020, 03:54:05 AM
Eh.  Just imagine how gripping the debate will be with two incoherent ramblers on stage. 

I've been my normal disinterested self for most of this.  I don't tend to get emotionally tied to politics as a general rule. 

I was genuinely intrigued by Bloomberg's overall buy the election strategy, and wholly annoyed for about 2 weeks where you couldn't turn around without seeing his ads.  I'm also genuinely pleased it failed so utterly. 

I respect the strategy of the more conservative members swiftly consolidating to a single candidate when Bernie was gaining such a lead, and rather fascinated it worked so damn well. 

I'll be honest.  I don't see hunchback bernie getting elected in this television age.  If Aro wasn't so damn busy I might have him make a hunchack bernie cartoon even.  He both looks and sounds like he's half in the grave.  As much as I might think he's the better candidate for the country, I just don't see it.  And Biden has been too boring to be a legitimate candidate since forever.  He's not going to energize anything beyond anyone-but-trump votes. 

Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 07, 2020, 05:31:09 PM
I saw someone say on Twitter -I've been following some liberals screaming on Twitter lately, of which I have a lot to say soon if I can work up the energy- Thursday, that it felt a lot like the day after The Pig was 'elected'.

-^That^, yes, if only one tenth as intense.  I did not, because it hurt so much, talk about politics to a single soul for about six months.  Some of us, Bernie got our hopes up that the rightward drift in the Democratic Party, decades old, might finally be arrested.  It's not about Sanders/Warren, though the latter is FANTASTIC and the former quite good - it's not about Joe being a mediocre hack; it's about the people trying to steer the party back into proper opposition being bulldozed by the Republican Lite wing on behalf of the mediocre hack.

And Lori's right; even Dr. Warren is too old.  This country has drifted into a very bad place, Obama gets called a socialist when he's barely even a Democrat, we still openly torture, and a geriatric who will. not. FIX. things is not an acceptable alternative to the Pig wallowing in his own [poop] and lying about an epidemic, killing people among endless other outrages.

I'm turning out to vote for the rat sorbet -featuring LESS rat- in November, the fix being in, make no mistake.

But not as bad isn't good enough.  We can do better.  We MUST.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 07, 2020, 06:28:17 PM
Democrats, You Really Do Not Want To Nominate Joe Biden (https://www.currentaffairs.org/2020/03/democrats-you-really-do-not-want-to-nominate-joe-biden/)

Exhaustingly hyperlinked with examples of facts asserted.  I used to read a lot of PhD.-level peer-reviewed published academic papers while helping my sister assemble grad course syllabi, and Nathan J. Robinson has totally punked the entire comm studies field for comprehensive attribution.  Click on it and see if you can make it ten paragraphs before brain fatigue shuts you down...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 07, 2020, 11:04:05 PM
-And back to the senile talk about Joe ALL OVER the nets allasudden-

-My two next-door grandparents and my dad all died with several years of dementia under their belts - I was there and an important part of their care.  I think I can claim a little expertise.

The schedule Biden's working, traveling and speaking?  You couldn't do it and speak so sensibly and well after a few days, let alone over a year now.  He's healthier than I am, just tired and suppressing a stutter.  I rather think if he was only a teeny bit senile, right now he couldn't hold up his end of a breakfast conversation.

I have hopes for the next debate, but don't kid yourselves; Joe's good at that.  It ain't going to be a Warren v. Bloomberg knockout.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: ColdWizard on March 08, 2020, 03:30:36 PM
-But, on the other hand, this is JOE BIDEN we're talking about - tripping over his tongue/misspeaking is sorta his signature going decades back.

I remember Dubya getting dragged for his speaking and the Quayle jokes but I don't remember hearing that about Biden.  :dunno:


The New Hampshire/Nevada thing I wouldn't even care about on it's own, like trying to get on the wrong private jet. Running for Senate though? I brain fart plenty but that seems more like a brain shart. And I don't even know where to begin trying to parse "vote for the other Biden".
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 08, 2020, 03:58:33 PM
Funny thing; until he ran for vice president 12 years ago, I knew he'd run loser presidential campaigns more than once and chaired the committee that maltreated Anita Hill and approved Clarence Thomas.

I was surprised to find out he was so charming and warm, which was a real failure of those presidential runs.  His eternal misspeaking was very much widely discussed at the time, I swear.  :dunno:
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: ColdWizard on March 08, 2020, 05:19:33 PM
Ah, I was still a youngster back then and there's no way it would have been on my radar. Makes sense that I'd only remember the giant blip that was Dan Quayle.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2020, 08:34:16 PM
So, I've been intensely following some Liberals Screaming On Twitter since the actual primaries began and the democratic field had winnowed down to few enough people to keep track of.  As is my wont, I've naturally fallen into thought and study about --- and here I need your help, Rusty, 'cause you're so brilliant at generating pithy tags --- I started out calling it Liberals Eat Their Young, but that's not quite right; Liberal Cannibalism is the best I've come up with.

There's a set of jokes about democrats so old that I recall hearing them on TV in my childhood in the 70s.  "The Democratic Party is like cats you hear squalling in the night; they sound like they're fighting, but they're making more cats."  -An old democratic congressman told that one to CBS.  Just in the last week I heard Joe say something about not forming circles, a reference to the old chestnut about the shape of Democratic Firing Squads.

And like, I've noticed it being the liberals doing that -all day, every day, bitterly- not so much the centrists I rail against.  There seems little doubt of a causal connection between that factor and the Republican Lite wing stomping the Liberal wing last week for the million-and-first time since 1975 - they can shut up and pull together briefly when they have to and it won't annoy the Republicans too much.

And I do have some thoughts about why the Left is so exhaustingly, eternally Internecine, but I'd love to have a better label to slap on it, if you can coin something short and awesome, please, Rusty...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 10, 2020, 09:04:54 PM
Okay, I'll contemplate it.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2020, 11:01:27 PM
BTW - am I correct in assuming that if the Pig had ever been hired in the first place at your house, he'd now be fired yet again for fiddling while the 19 crows virus burns?


-I think that right there is impeachable all by itself, and completely refutes Elok's assertion that his incompetence renders him harmless, to boot.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 10, 2020, 11:11:13 PM
Internicidal ?

If that's what you're getting at, it reminds me of the Libertarians. We get locked into pointless philosophical arguments about why somebody isn't a true Libertarian (Scottsman). These arguments are more about proving moral superiority over people who are actually working to accomplish something.

Internicidal is kind of esoteric so maybe it needs an easier to understand term.

Democrats are so diverse and so woke that they can only agree on one thing. Gun Control-the feet they save may be their own.

So foot shooters? Or the foot shooters' party? Or is that the name of the convention coming to Milwaukee?

If you're on Twitter, you might enjoy the parody humor of  @MSDNCNews

Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 10, 2020, 11:41:11 PM
Liberal Circular Firing Squads - LCFS?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 10, 2020, 11:43:50 PM
BTW - am I correct in assuming that if the Pig had ever been hired in the first place at your house, he'd now be fired yet again for fiddling while the 19 crows virus burns?


-I think that right there is impeachable all by itself, and completely refutes Elok's assertion that his incompetence renders him harmless, to boot.

Yes. He'd be fired. I don't know about impeachment. Can I sign onto a 401K class action suit against him?  I'll have to start that Corona thread.

How hard can it be for him to realize it's over his head, it's been delegated, and he needs to refer everything to Pence/CDC rather than comment further. Clearly this is a case of chaos as a management style not working.

On the political side of that, I was polled yesterday. One question was about what would I could say to convince friends to support Trump, even if I were personally opposed to him. I said that his actions to make the pandemic worse & crash the economy, with the resulting decline in transportation and energy usage, depopulation, etc. will do more than any single person to fight global warming.

Well, apparently I've gone from grinding my teeth to the point of debilitating pain to gallows humor.

Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 10, 2020, 11:45:01 PM
Liberal Circular Firing Squads - LCFS?

Maybe. I'll keep ruminating on it.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 11, 2020, 12:17:08 AM
That's a good joke on the Resident.

Y'know, a few days ago, the silly SOB re-tweated a shooped pic of him holding a violin, and naturally some of the Liberals Screaming On Twitter -hereinafter LSOT- promptly started calling him Nero.  He walked right into that one.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on March 12, 2020, 12:07:29 AM
Y'know, a few days ago, the silly SOB re-tweated a shooped pic of him holding a violin, and naturally some of the Liberals Screaming On Twitter -hereinafter LSOT- promptly started calling him Nero.  He walked right into that one.

Shouldn't the Resident play a trumpet instead?
He blares enough for it. ;)
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 12, 2020, 12:17:46 AM
A local commentator gone national coined the term "Trumpettes" for Trump's supporters.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 12, 2020, 12:18:57 AM
For Buncle  http://twitter.com/i/status/1237519854204342273
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 12, 2020, 08:42:22 PM
https://popular.info/p/unprepared

[Tearing down America's pandemic response infrastructure
In 2018, the Trump administration ousted Rear Adm. Tim Ziemer, who served as the Senior Director of Global Health Security. Ziemer was a member of the National Security Council, where he was responsible for coordinating "responses to global health emergencies and potential pandemics." Ziemer was lauded as "one of the most quietly effective leaders in public health." His work on Malaria during the Obama administration helped save 6 million lives.
"Admiral Ziemer’s departure is deeply alarming," Congressman Ami Bera (D-CA) said in May 2018. "Expertise like his is critical in avoiding large outbreaks." Beth Cameron, who served on the National Security Council in the Obama administration, said that Ziemer's ouster was “a major loss for health security, biodefense, and pandemic preparedness” and noted that it "is unclear in his absence who at the White House would be in charge of a pandemic.]

It goes on to blame John Bolton, etc.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on March 12, 2020, 10:43:23 PM
I assume someone took over this position since 2018?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 13, 2020, 01:30:55 AM
No.

That's the point; during the Ebola business, Bakrama found out there was no one actually in charge of the CDC-type stuff in an emergency.  He set up a chain of command, mostly in national security positions, a bad epidemic being arguably that.  Pig dismantled the entire public health emergency pecking order ASAP.

Pig has probably been exposed to 19 Crows at least twice in publicly-known contacts with infected persons; VP Pence at least once.  Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi is next in line for the presidency, and I'll say no more for fear of professional dealings with the Secret Service.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 13, 2020, 02:01:18 AM
I assume someone took over this position since 2018?

Sadly, the president is so anti-Obama that he would gleefully remove a program that Obama initiated, or a person whom Obama hired, without pausing to understand why they were there in the first place.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 13, 2020, 03:55:24 AM
The president is supposed to appear here in a week. There's about a 50% chance he has the virus because of the people he's been in contact with. I wonder if he is going to spread it here, and if that will affect his chances of re-election.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on March 13, 2020, 06:14:59 AM
"Mr. president, could we have your temperature checked please?"
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 13, 2020, 03:08:20 PM
He's in a dilemma. He wants to get re-elected. As long as he is president, he can't be prosecuted. New York state likely has some charges ready to file against him along the lines of money laundering and tax fraud, because his accountant became a cooperating witness about 2 years ago.

BUT, this corona virus is a threat to the economy and therefore his presidency. So I'm sure that he is stressed out. Political rallies where he gets all of that public adulation are his favorite therapy. Even though he fears getting sick, he needs the rallies.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 13, 2020, 07:43:07 PM
I heard today that Trump's event here has been postponed. Then I remembered that yesterday the Democratic mayor  banned all meetings over 250 people. My guess is he didn't consult Trump.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on March 13, 2020, 10:18:24 PM
I heard today that Trump's event here has been postponed. Then I remembered that yesterday the Democratic mayor  banned all meetings over 250 people. My guess is he didn't consult Trump.

;lol

I suppose the lockdown also affects the Democrats caucus for the presidency candidate's run-up?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 14, 2020, 12:49:47 AM
That better be the very last thing they touch, or people ain't just gonna die of getting sick.   :mad:
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on March 14, 2020, 06:54:35 PM
What? Riots for a non-compulsory ballot? ???
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 14, 2020, 07:09:11 PM
I was expressing the PROFOUND frustration those of us not on the right have had building up since Reagan, especially since 2000, what with two lost-the-popular-vote Republican presidents in a row and a stolen Supreme Court seat.  Many see democracy suffering a death of a thousand cuts already.

Canceling elections in the emergency, any shenanigans at all to do with that -it being clear that nothing's beneath the Pig- I think a lot of people will snap, and riots and violence, yes.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on March 14, 2020, 07:32:54 PM
I wasn't talking about the presidency elections next November, but the Democrats internal ballot for their candidate.
Even if say the next 2 months all State ballots are suspended due to the pandemic, I'm sure the party leadership will come up with something.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 14, 2020, 07:38:19 PM
The party leadership would love to cancel any chance for Biden to screw up, sure, and it was actually brought up before the 19 Crows took over all conversation, yes.

-And let me say that that would end very badly for the collaborator party leadership, if not instantly, pretty soon.  There's a debate tomorrow night, and Bernie BETTER get his last shot, no excuses.

We're pretty frustrated with those jokers, too, 'cause they can't be bothered to fight back against the KKKlown Party, lo these last 20 years. ;nod
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 15, 2020, 05:33:41 PM
-There's a thing I want to say about Sanders that it's difficult to articulate briefly - simply that the idea/usual portrayal that Bernie is mean, angry and rant-y is just not a fair cop.

He's got a resting-[complaint or disagreeable woman]-face problem, to be sure, but when you actually listen to him talk, he is, in fact, warm, reasonable-sounding and frequently engaging in a  dry sarcasm sort of humor.  I find him very funny.

Everyone will have noticed by now that Shoddy Journalism is a peeve of mine, and I have considerable formal training in journalism and a little professional experience to back that up.  I believed the Mass Media Group Mind put him down as a crank on first sight last time, and as such pretty frequently failed to extend him a common courtesy that no one ever talks about; journalists clean up quotes and editors preferentially pick flattering photos.  Like, everyone says "um" and so on while talking, and leaving out the meaningless grunts and even a certain amount of fixing grammar is just standard practice.  Similar applies to the 200 photos taken at a speech - the ones of eyes half-open and so on are eliminated almost as quickly as the out-of-focus stuff.

And Bernie's a Jew from Brooklyn who talks with his hands, always, and has an unfortunate default sour expression.  He's giving a speech, so his mouth's open in nine of the ten best shots being winnowed down, and he's always gesturing - still photography just innately isn't his best way to be presented, and his enemy was probably more eternal deadline time-pressures than bias, maybe, but I still think he deserved more considerate treatment than he got in 2016 with the ranty photos leading every print/net story about him.  Nothing's really changed this cycle.


SO watch the debate tonight, and actually consider the man as he actually is, trying to avoid conformation bias that he's shoutyman.


-I note that he's got all the reasons in the world to go after Biden tonight like Warren on Bloomberg -get pretty intense- so this may be a bad sample to work with - but I perceive that he's very aware of the problem I'm talking about, and will likely put far more emphasis on speaking in complete grammatical sentences and demonstrating mastery of policy and detail.

If I'm wrong and it's all shoutyman tonight, well, his recent town hall on Fox isn't hard to find, and you'll see the good form I've noticed as his usual, not least some rather funny sarcasm...

Check out the real Bernie sometime, please.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 16, 2020, 12:56:57 AM
I find Bernie acceptable. Like Gary Johnson, I found that taking the I side with quiz gave me about a 70% agreement with Sanders, more than most Democrats. Why? Because he's against Crony Capitalism, the source of many of our healthcare inefficiencies. And the 30% I disagree with? I don't really think that will be implemented in a recognizable form anyway.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 16, 2020, 01:12:34 AM
To expand on your last phrase, I will say that the Party closing ranks and organizing against him so completely hints that a Sanders presidency would be a lot like a Romney one would have been - born dead, because you can't do ANYthing without the support of your own side...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 16, 2020, 01:32:24 AM
To expand on your last phrase, I will say that the Party closing ranks and organizing against him so completely hints that a Sanders presidency would be a lot like a Romney one would have been - born dead, because you can't do ANYthing without the support of your own side...

Uh... Sadly so. If only it were enough to be right.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 16, 2020, 01:57:06 AM
Here's the first ten minutes:


Bernie seems sharper, but Joe definitely don't look a bit senile.  I'm calling this bit for Joe, as all he needed was not to lose decisively.

Both gentlemen, IMAO, err in not turning their answers, on this of all nights, into a contest to see who can slam the Pig as a joke, a failure, a traitor and a murderer the hardest.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 16, 2020, 02:16:06 AM
JOE AIN"T SENILE.  Nobody talk about that anymore.  I'm looking at you, everyone everywhere in the country.


Points to the moderators for letting the back and forth go on for so long.

Bernie shouldn't have let him off the hook naming the nine superpacs.  Dr. Warren wouldn't have unless she thought he might could name at least six...

Both gentlemen, again, are making a mistake giving their stump positions instead of answering all questions with We Are In A National Disaster Of The Pig's Making.  -Because we are.  Nobody cares about who said what when about Social Security tonight.

Joe still wins by not losing.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 16, 2020, 02:43:48 AM
Allow me to underline:  WE ARE AMIDST A MAJOR NATIONAL DISASTER, RIGHT. NOW. TONIGHT.

-And that's even if the Crows is a hoax.  Whole countries have shut down, we're in the middle of half-assing same, and Pig has failed at even the saving the stock market, which he's made clear is all he cares about, not the people he's killed.  Business, especially the small ones, is Officially Having A Bad Year.  Or several.

I give Biden and Sanders both a failing mark for talking about anything else, though I note several Liberals Screaming On Twitter have already called the debate for Joe on the same basis I did; he didn't lose hard enough.  I am honestly gladdened, not just putting a happy face on it, that he held up against a sharp/fierce opponent.  He had to come out of it looking sharp, or else be Bloomberged so utterly he'd lose everything else.

I can vote for him in November and not be sick about it.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 16, 2020, 07:59:57 PM
Watching the press conference, president included. He says that the vaccine is already going to trial, and they are working on an anti-viral. He also says that this will last through August.

Of course, I figure his credibility is already shot, and the financial markets know it. Today they only have 8 people behind the podium to advocate for social distancing.

Dr Fauci said, if I can summarize/paraphrase - Act like we're already in Italy because that's our last, best hope.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 17, 2020, 12:59:01 AM
I'm told the stock market fell 600 points while that presser was going on.  The Pig's lips were moving.  A pity there's no way to keep him from making public remarks while the stock exchange is open.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 17, 2020, 01:26:37 AM
Here's Bernie at a town hall two weeks and change ago.  It's much more the personal form I talked about yesterday that was not so much in the debate.  Nailed a couple jokes w/o trying hard, didn't give away the two quick grins he flashed cheap, but grin he indeed did...


-Not because it's not a lost cause, but right up there's what I was talking about, FWIW...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 17, 2020, 02:37:19 PM
Now here's Bernie ranting in 1992...

Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 17, 2020, 06:03:29 PM
...So I sez to Mom yesterday, I sez "When the other old church ladies say 'socialism' you say 'The New Deal'".

-It didn't really end the Depression -that was WWII turning up- but it kept a lot of people going until it was over.  THAT'S one of those rare things Big Government is good for; getting people over the hump in a crisis.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 18, 2020, 03:34:13 PM
Hey Rusty; what's the Libertarian Party up to this cycle?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 19, 2020, 01:02:45 AM
Infighting, mostly.

The re-elected Chairman(Jewish) and new vice-chairman(Hispanic) are good people in my opinion.

However, there's a vocal sector that are what Trump used to call "good people on both sides." Alt righters who supported him in 2016 rather than Johnson/Weld. Speaking of Weld, he returned to the GOP to primary Trump.

A widely respected Larry Sharpe (Black) who ran for VP in 2016, and gov of NY recently, is sitting this election cycle out.

Alicia Dern who also ran for VP in 2016 has become my virtual friend in the years since. She is helping with the Rocque De la Fuente GOP presidential campaign this cycle.

Former FOX Business channel host Austin Petersen turned Republican to run for senate in Missouri and lost.

Actually, political performance artist Vermin Supreme leads any polls I've seen of Libertarians.

The sensible sorts are hoping for Independent Congressman Justin Amash to run for president under the Libertarian banner. You may remember him as the first and only congressional Republican to call for Trump's impeachment. Then they kicked him out of the congressional Freedom Caucus, of which he was the founder, and he resigned from the GOP. I think he's more interested in trying to hold on to his seat with both parties trying to pick it up.

Meanwhile the state Corona restrictions on gatherings are messing up the state conventions, and I don't know if they'll do a virtual national convention- or what.

My guess is we'll run a no-name, which is okay because I intend to vote Democrat...but I would reconsider if they manage to put Hillary on the ballot again somehow. Before anybody says "That can't happen" I understand that if the candidate were to die, say between nomination and the election, the DNC can choose a replacement, same as when Sen. Eagleton resigned as McGovern's Veep.  I don't know if they'd choose Hillary, but I can guarantee they wouldn't go with Tulsi.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 19, 2020, 03:09:36 AM
So is Sen. Ron Johnson fired?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 19, 2020, 06:03:50 PM
Yes. Johnson is fired again.

My only consolation is that Trump is costing him a lot of money, because he owns a manufacturing  business.


Tulsi dropped out of the race in favor of Biden. I think she's probably thinking more about saving lives than changing minds. A grass roots campaign is antithetical to a quarantine, and as a national guard medic she will likely be called up. She's been busy lately with a bill for a $1,000/month emergency payout. I wonder if endorsing Joe was part of the price to get something passed.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 19, 2020, 10:15:12 PM
Senator Richard Burr, NC, is also fired, BTW.

Mind, I can't fire him, since I swore almost 20 years ago to never vote for any Republican who hadn't denounced the Cheney bund for anything, ever - but he's double-fired, and should go to prison for insider trading...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 19, 2020, 10:40:15 PM
You pre-empted me.

https://www.propublica.org/article/senator-dumped-up-to-1-6-million-of-stock-after-reassuring-public-about-coronavirus-preparedness

Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 19, 2020, 11:08:33 PM
It strikes me as a good thing when we fire senators, if only we could make it stick...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 19, 2020, 11:09:31 PM
p.s.  Mitch McConnel rates a fifty-fired post...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 20, 2020, 01:43:03 AM
Oh, looks like Sen. Kelly Loeffler, R, GA, did the same thing, and is also fired and hopefully going to jail.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 20, 2020, 02:41:36 AM
Add Sen. Jim Inhofe R, OK, and yes, Ron Johnson, who must be tired from getting fired so often.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 20, 2020, 02:58:44 AM
...Senator Dianne Feinstein, D, CA - throw her on the fire with the rest.  Fired...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 20, 2020, 01:43:25 PM
-From what I'm seeing this morning, it's possible I may have been a but too hasty with the later three.  Time and further investigation will tell.  Burr and Loeffler still look incredibly guilty, though.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 20, 2020, 07:15:10 PM
I understand that Feinstein has her assets in blind trust ( as all professional politicians should be). So she probably isn't culpable.

That said, I'm wondering what Jared did while Trump was talking about "Only 15 cases!"

Don't get me wrong, I'm not thinking that all Democrats are above personal enrichment, even though I have sadly come to believe that Justin Amash was the only elected Republican in the federal government with ethical principles. EVERYBODY in government should be scrutinized.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 20, 2020, 07:22:56 PM
Definitely Jared, Eric, and Jr...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on March 20, 2020, 08:42:07 PM
Okay, what's this all about? Senator impeachments?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 20, 2020, 11:19:54 PM
One can only hope.  At least two US senators clearly engaged in insider trading after a secret briefing on the Covid19 threat.  They not only failed to warn the public, they promptly engaged in self-dealing stock sales.  Not only is that disqualifying for holding their offices, it's illegal, and they should go to prison.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 21, 2020, 02:49:40 AM
I'm watching news coverage, and there are repeated references to "misinformation" coming from the presidential press conferences.

There is an established term for this - PROPOGANDA
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 21, 2020, 03:27:13 AM
ANYone in TV news mentioning that the Pig lies when his lips move?  Who?

They are derelict in their duty to carry those mid-day pressers live, frankly.  They are news, but should be covered that afternoon, when fact-checking has taken place and the lies/unfacts can be covered - this would not be mere political journalism, so many lives being at stake.  They aid his negligent mass-homicide when they enable him w/ live coverage.  That guy at NBC IS a terrible journalist - they all are, only for the opposite reason than the Pig claims.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 21, 2020, 06:45:56 PM
The Mrs. says she'd rather get the raw propaganda feed live and unedited, and then the fact check later that day. That way she'd know they were lying. To be fair, she knows that Trump is a pathological liar, and that Lyin' Mike Pence is so self righteous that you can't tell the difference between his lies and facts. But if the press conferences were edited, she wouldn't know if the information came from a biased press or propaganda.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 21, 2020, 07:15:05 PM
Again, the misinformation is negligent homicide in the context of the current disaster, and I regret that cutting the live feed would annoy the missus, but I stand firm that it should be cut.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 21, 2020, 11:12:27 PM
ANYone in TV news mentioning that the Pig lies when his lips move?  Who?

They are derelict in their duty to carry those mid-day pressers live, frankly.  They are news, but should be covered that afternoon, when fact-checking has taken place and the lies/unfacts can be covered - this would not be mere political journalism, so many lives being at stake.  They aid his negligent mass-homicide when they enable him w/ live coverage.  That guy at NBC IS a terrible journalist - they all are, only for the opposite reason than the Pig claims.

Well, this came pretty close-
https://twitter.com/i/status/1241347215026720769
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 22, 2020, 07:09:53 PM
This elevated my mood today.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 23, 2020, 01:16:38 AM
Looking at that killer does not elevate my mood in any way - but I only edited the bad language.

I do hate seeing a POS trashy publicity-hungry grifter dirtbag celebrity who has been on my Go Away list for 25 years absolutely everywhere, and am not posting so much to complain as hasten the page of the thread rolling over that much sooner.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 23, 2020, 01:31:49 AM
I figured you'd probably take it down anyway. Don't let it ruin your mood.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 23, 2020, 01:59:59 AM
I'll live.  Sooner the page rolls over the better, though.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 23, 2020, 11:22:40 PM
I'm seeing a lot of antagonism to the lockdown strategy, people questioning whether it's economically worth the sacrifice for 1 or 2 % of people who are likely unproductive anyway.

Governor Cuomo said today that probably 80% will get it, but only one percent will die. I guess he has simply been forced to face facts, and that one of them is that it is impossible to protect the city of New York from a pandemic. Still, it sounds brutal.



-------
Now I see Trump is speaking again.  It's seems he's parted ways with Dr. Faucci .
He's hinting about lifting the quarantine. Maybe in as little as a week, maybe two, but it certainly won't last a couple of months.

Now he's talking about more death resulting from a poor economy than any virus. So there's that.
Guess they are going to call it "safer at home" rather than "shelter in place".  The vibe I'm getting now is that they are transitioning from "we're all in this together" to you're on your own. 

Just heard that we are locking down in Wisconsin effective Tuesday. So maybe we stand a chance of not overwhelming our healthcare system. 

Okay. Screw it. At this point the pandemic briefings are more politics and economics than medical. I didn't think it get to this so soon. My pandemic thread is open to politics henceforth, because the president can't sort it out.


Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 25, 2020, 03:13:52 AM
I can remember when Republicans were "pro-life" and were terrified of "death panels" in the health care system.

Today more "conservatives" seem to be willing to sacrifice 1 or 2% of the populace for the sake of the economy.

So it's not about fiscal conservancy. It's not about conserving God's creation, or conserving people's lives, or conserving Constitutional principles.

I think it only amounts to conserving political power and personal wealth.

 
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 26, 2020, 04:58:02 AM
https://www.thedailybeast.com/cnn-and-msnbc-staffers-wary-of-airing-trump-coronavirus-pressers

[On the one hand, their ratings have never been higher, and viewers’ appetites for the live sessions have shown no signs of dwindling. On the other hand, journalists and executives at MSNBC, CNN and the often Trump-friendly Fox News—which scored an impressive 6.2 million viewers for Sunday’s installment of the Trump show, according to Nielsen—are increasingly facing the likelihood that they are becoming an uncritical and unvetted transmission belt for propaganda and misinformation.]
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 27, 2020, 02:10:47 AM
So, the USA now leads the world in Total cases, New cases/day, and Active cases.

To be fair, Trump frequently stated at his rallies "We're going to do so much winning. We're going to win until you're sick of winning!"   Literally.

By the way, are we great again yet?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 27, 2020, 10:47:32 PM
...I never believed the scene in Animal Farm when the sheep began chanting "Four legs good!  Two legs BETTER!" -Now I see it happen in real life, and it's truly depressing...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 28, 2020, 12:44:22 AM
...So I sez to Mom yesterday, I sez "When the other old church ladies say 'socialism' you say 'The New Deal'".

-It didn't really end the Depression -that was WWII turning up- but it kept a lot of people going until it was over.  THAT'S one of those rare things Big Government is good for; getting people over the hump in a crisis.
Several days ago, Mom watched some WPA depression-era pseudo-documentary about a black family in Georgia working hard and saving to buy better equipment and get ahead, w/ friendly neighbors who turned out to help in a big way when a fire broke out on the logging site.  We talked a fair bit about the New Deal values it pushed, not least at all the good neighbors/people doing the right thing in a crisis/positive collective action...

So, we were bitching about politics tonight when I came in from feeding the cats, especially a lot of dirtbaggery and hate-slash-lying on the right and the harm it causes, and I was quoting what she said last time after we voted in the primary for Bernie about it just being Christian for people to look out for each other --- and Mamma spread her arms wide and said "SOCIALISM!  We need a little socialism."  She was serious.

This a profoundly social-conservative church lady, folks, and maybe it means there's hope for old church ladies, maybe that we need quality ones like Mom, maybe that I'm just hella-persuasive.  Dunno, but it puts a smile in my heart.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on March 28, 2020, 01:31:42 AM
TheTwo Trillion Plus Dollar relief bill is now Law!!!
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on March 28, 2020, 05:53:01 AM
So, we were bitching about politics tonight when I came in from feeding the cats, especially a lot of dirtbaggery and hate-slash-lying on the right and the harm it causes, and I was quoting what she said last time after we voted in the primary for Bernie about it just being Christian for people to look out for each other --- and Mamma spread her arms wide and said "SOCIALISM!  We need a little socialism."  She was serious.

So, is there these days at times another station to see on TV? ;)
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 28, 2020, 11:25:36 AM
?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on March 28, 2020, 06:16:45 PM
?

During my visit, I always saw the same broadcasting company on TV.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 29, 2020, 02:21:33 AM
My wife enjoys these ads-

https://twitter.com/i/status/1244054911974809601
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 29, 2020, 02:25:57 AM
How does denying aid for premeditated political reasons, knowing it will cause more people to die, not boost it from negligent homicide to first degree murder?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 29, 2020, 02:36:28 AM
I was going to post about that unpresidential mob-boss behavior, but this saved me some  leg work.

Me, I'd say impeach him again, but Congress would have to risk their lives to do it. They've got other stuff to deal with. Thing is Michigan voted for him last time by the narrowest of margins. Taking out his personal dislike for the new governor on it's populace is shooting himself in the foot.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on March 29, 2020, 03:51:26 AM
Prison.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on March 29, 2020, 05:34:14 AM
The Prison Apprentice will become my favorite TV show. His jumpsuit will compliment his complexion.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 07, 2020, 06:54:23 PM
What is the appropriate level of firings for both houses of Congress being in recess and not working during this crisis?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 07, 2020, 11:09:53 PM
That's a perplexing problem.
After all, I held every member of the Bush the Lesser administration as well as every siting member of Congress at the time responsible for The Great Recession, not just for the moronic loan program that fed the housing bubble, but the bumbled response to the crisis.

This is worse.

However, I'd like to see all of these Trump lackeys and collaborators removed as a priority, so I probably can't fire everybody at once. To some degree in this partisan atmosphere it's the leadership rather than the membership which calls the shots, and that includes the calender. Just because Trump won't lead by example on social distancing doesn't mean I came blame Congress for doing it. But at some point, say the day after Easter, they need to be ready to vote. If people can risk their lives here in Wisconsin to do so, so can they. If individuals feel the risk is too great, they should resign and let their governor pick a young replacement. Minimum age for a Representative is 25, 30 for a Senator.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on April 08, 2020, 11:42:32 AM
There's a (minor) political riot going on at the moment in my country due to a minister not having reported 'likely' corona deaths in senior nursing -and care centers.
It seems even the elderly often don't display symptoms of a Corona infection. A couple days ago a doctor in a care center decided to test 15 people in a wing where there were already 3 confirmed corona infections. 13 out of 15 tested positive, but were not ill.
There's roughly 70-80,000 people residing in such centers.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 14, 2020, 11:29:37 PM
Trump is blaming the W.H.O. for the pandemic at today's press conference. He's talking about an investigation into their mishandling of the crisis, and withholding funds. It is my understanding that he has withheld funding from them for the last two years. Since we provide a large share of their funds, I can't help but think that may have hamstrung them.

I just got on hear to say that I do not like yesterday's assertion that he had total authority. Even if he were a king or a dictator, total authority goes hand in hand with total responsibility, which he has recently disavowed.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 14, 2020, 11:34:42 PM
Now I hear that we have contributed $0 the W.H.O. in the last THREE YEARS on the fact check.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on April 14, 2020, 11:49:52 PM
He has also started to alienate several Republican Governors, with FL Gov Leading the outrage...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on April 15, 2020, 03:33:37 PM
He's a superb crisis manager… but only in his own head. ;lol
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on April 15, 2020, 04:10:57 PM
Open only if your heart meds are up to date!!

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/692363390370185216/699825732637032448/trump-king1.png (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/692363390370185216/699825732637032448/trump-king1.png)
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on April 16, 2020, 05:08:50 AM
Well, for the people whom are going to have to have their Stimulas sent out as an an actual check, thre is going to be an additional delay of about one more week.  As the number of checks to be sent out at one is unexpected and unpresidented, it was already expected to take (on average) several additional weeks for people to see them in their mail boxes.

But, because President Trump wanted people to know that the check were coming from him, he wanted to have his signature on the checks, as the signing signature.  Although, by law, he can't, but the Tres Sec it going to put the President's Signature, in the Memo, so as to stroke his ego. 

Of Course, adding this to all of those checks is expected to add several addition days to the time frame for people to get those special checks, so that they can feed their kids, etc...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Unorthodox on April 16, 2020, 01:20:23 PM
So...as many of you are aware, I work in the military/industrial complex in an extremely red state. 

There are a LOT of people who seem to think Trump is handling this marvelously.  As in thank god Trump was in charge as he's saving millions of lives.  I'm really struggling to understand this point of view.  I mean I disagree with these people quite often, but at least normally I can see where they are coming from.  Yes, even up til now.  But I'm really struggling to see how any of this can be construed as not just an adequate response, but an actual fantastic response.   

Thus, I will not be shocked if he wins again.  This is somehow WORKING for him. 
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on April 16, 2020, 04:55:43 PM
Just ask them if they have been tested with one of those "tremendous number" of tests that he promised months ago (as well as gotten results in less than 48 hours) and if this was a Fake Virus Hoax or not...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on April 16, 2020, 06:15:28 PM
Thus, I will not be shocked if he wins again.  This is somehow WORKING for him.

(https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/horse-saddled-blinds-20915691.jpg)
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on April 17, 2020, 05:49:51 PM
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/692506209059733572/700576322841346128/image0.jpg)
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 24, 2020, 03:12:23 PM
...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Unorthodox on April 24, 2020, 03:20:50 PM
I hope a lot of his followers try to self medicate with that. 
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on April 24, 2020, 06:48:40 PM
I like what I had seen of Cuomo in this interview with Trevor Noah


and

Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on April 24, 2020, 06:49:56 PM
I hope a lot of his followers try to self medicate with that.
They likely have already been huffing Lysol for years...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on April 24, 2020, 11:00:49 PM
Well, if you filed your taxes via regular Mail and are now waiting for the IRS to process it so that you can get the Stimulus check sent to you, Here is some good news for you: They will send you the check after they clear out the tractor trailers full of unprocessed mail, that your filing info is buried under...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on April 25, 2020, 03:59:31 AM
...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on April 27, 2020, 03:59:39 AM
So...as many of you are aware, I work in the military/industrial complex in an extremely red state. 

There are a LOT of people who seem to think Trump is handling this marvelously.  As in thank god Trump was in charge as he's saving millions of lives.  I'm really struggling to understand this point of view.  I mean I disagree with these people quite often, but at least normally I can see where they are coming from.  Yes, even up til now.  But I'm really struggling to see how any of this can be construed as not just an adequate response, but an actual fantastic response.   

Thus, I will not be shocked if he wins again.  This is somehow WORKING for him.

Not counting a few edge cases, I think most hardcore MAGA Trump supporters are, electorally speaking, a lost cause. They are so far down the rabbit hole of motivated reasoning that they absolutely won't let themselves see how completely unacceptable Trump is. Fine. Whatever. Sucks, and maybe in a few cycles when what remains of the Republican party has wiped off the stench of Trump, they'll be reachable again. I don't know.

But Trump won the presidency in 2016 by winning a few thousand votes in a few key states. All it takes to undo that is to turn out the Democrat base with a little more enthusiasm while also grabbing a few more swing voters. I don't mean to say that's going to be easy, but it's not complicated, and historically speaking unpopular incumbents dealing with an economic collapse and/or disaster usually don't fare well.

Trump may win again. It's certainly possible and we should be prepared for it. But I think we should resist the idea that there's some magic to him, some idiot savant power, that granted him the presidency four years ago and has kept him in power since. Democrats had a weak candidate and a bad electoral strategy, Republicans were unable to unify behind a Trump alternative, some things swung the wrong way the week before the election, and since then Republicans have mostly made the calculation that Trump is worth it if they get tax cuts and judges.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 27, 2020, 06:11:33 AM
Some days I wonder if Trump is a biblical test, sort of like John the Baptist was the forerunner of Jesus, to see if the people were ready. Only I'm thinking Trump is the test before the Anti-Christ.

Some days I wonder if the pandemic is punishment for electing Trump, but mostly I wonder if Trump himself is a plague.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on April 28, 2020, 11:48:34 PM
I keep thinking about what will happen, IF we have some states use a Mail in Ballot, due to C-19 and Trump loses those states and gets voted out of office.  What will Trump do to claim "Fake Votes" and try to invalidate the election.  I really doubt that he will leave office without a fight that will further divide the country with everything else that has happened.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on April 30, 2020, 01:15:56 AM
I keep thinking about what will happen, IF we have some states use a Mail in Ballot, due to C-19 and Trump loses those states and gets voted out of office.  What will Trump do to claim "Fake Votes" and try to invalidate the election.  I really doubt that he will leave office without a fight that will further divide the country with everything else that has happened.

I wonder whether he is planning on shutting down the postal service before the election.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on April 30, 2020, 02:16:44 PM
I wonder whether he is planning on shutting down the postal service before the election.

Is that a Federal or State affair?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on April 30, 2020, 03:06:33 PM
Very much federal; IIRC the Constitution expressly gives the feds authority over the post, but I could be wrong.

Incidentally, Justin Amash says he's going to try to be the Libertarian candidate this year.  After perusing his wiki entry, I'm inclined to vote for him even though I'm 99.5% confident he won't win.  Just to signal-boost.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on April 30, 2020, 03:33:13 PM
Looks like a possible someone for the Libertarian Run.  He voted to Impeach Trump as well. 
Justin Amash (/əˈmɑːʃ/; born April 18, 1980) is an American lawyer, activist and politician who has served as the U.S. Representative (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_of_Representatives) for Michigan's 3rd congressional district (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michigan%27s_3rd_congressional_district) since 2011. Originally a member of the Republican Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_Party_(United_States)), Amash became an independent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_politician) in July 2019 before joining the Libertarian Party (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_Party_(United_States)) in April 2020.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on April 30, 2020, 07:03:29 PM
Very much federal; IIRC the Constitution expressly gives the feds authority over the post, but I could be wrong.

Incidentally, Justin Amash says he's going to try to be the Libertarian candidate this year.  After perusing his wiki entry, I'm inclined to vote for him even though I'm 99.5% confident he won't win.  Just to signal-boost.

If polls indicate that Florida is in contention, would that change your voting strategy?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on April 30, 2020, 09:12:02 PM
Honestly, it'd have to be hella close, and I'd have to be a good deal more impressed with Biden than I am so far.  It's fair to say that Biden is a better person than Trump, but so are most non-felons.  I don't know how this whole mad circus will unfold if he gets power, and it looks like I agree entirely with Amash on basically every policy I've seen listed.  Plus he's not senile.  Sometimes I disagree with the rationale for his positions--I always thought the case for Russiagate was silly on the merits, for example--but the end result is the same.  Yes, impeach him if you can.  Just for being Trump!

I view Trump as basically a prank caller in the oval office, little different than leaving it vacant.  He's never going to (himself) become a dictator.  Aside from the US not being in crummy enough shape for that, he hasn't got the brains or fortitude or anything else worth having.  This is a dismal holding pattern.  If Biden takes over, the ship of state will still be damn near rudderless.  I don't know how his more moderate wing of the party will interact with the impatient radicals.  He might get something done if they manage to get total control of congress.  But that something will probably not be productive or helpful, and Trump's base will be intransigent.  Trump's base is 40% of the country, and very good at being intransigent.  They'll be fighting mad, the hard left will be in a punitive mood, and frankly Biden isn't clever enough to actually solve problems like healthcare.  Obama couldn't solve healthcare, and he had brains and charisma, and was working in an era when the GOP nominated gentleman-plutocrats like Romney.  Biden will be an addled old man trying to navigate trench-knife politics.

I suppose the biggest risk I see here is that, if Trump loses in '20, the GOP will have four years to find someone who can inherit his mantle.  This person will almost certainly have to channel the same frustrations as Trump to have a chance--and do it convincingly--but will be extremely unlikely to have the character flaws that make Trump so impotent.  You really have to work at being that worthless a human being.  So what happens if '24 rolls around and there's a competent Trumpist running against Uncle Joe, after four years of increasingly hot tensions?  It might be better to leave Trump in to slowly exhaust Trumpism.  He's the devil we know.

I don't know how things would go with Biden in charge, of course.  He could surprise me.  All this is to say that, for me, the choice isn't all that clear-cut.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on May 01, 2020, 01:32:40 AM
There's also the part where not all the horrible authoritarians are on Trump's side (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/what-covid-revealed-about-internet/610549/).  Not that Biden has come out in favor of Chinese-style censorship, but he doesn't have a history of good judgment where aggressive interventions are concerned, and there seems to be a worrisomely large amount of support on the Left for protecting the little people from unapproved opinions.
Title: We need an Authoritarian Communist Government
Post by: Bearu on May 01, 2020, 06:17:46 AM
There's also the part where not all the horrible authoritarians are on Trump's side (https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/04/what-covid-revealed-about-internet/610549/).  Not that Biden has come out in favor of Chinese-style censorship, but he doesn't have a history of good judgment where aggressive interventions are concerned, and there seems to be a worrisomely large amount of support on the Left for protecting the little people from unapproved opinions.
I sense you possess a bias against authoritarianism.

Political candidates like Biden and Trump in the effete American collegial system promote decadence and global capitalism, and, in short, lack the political will for radical changes. Failures from politicains like Biden and Trump enabled the politics of transformation from the capitalist reformer Gorbachev, revolutionary vision of Mao, and the failures of an entrenched bureaucracy of the Soviet Union in the 1980s under Andropov and Chernenko depending on particular political  conditions.

I also believe many people in American society supportive of Trump and Biden would benefit from the strong handed social and political guidance of an educated and effective group of leadership under people's democratic dictatorship and democratic centralism. Without the social rejuvenation from violence and the training of American children for war, the proletariat will suffer from Trump's and Biden's promotion of the social and economic decay in the Western culture of material desire. Materialist desires from advertising quickly mutates into a culture of greed.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on May 02, 2020, 06:25:00 PM
/me groans
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on May 02, 2020, 08:20:34 PM
/me groans

;lol
Title: Politics 2020
Post by: Bearu on May 03, 2020, 12:14:42 AM
/me groans

;lol
I have over the last few years made a public speech in front of more than 50 people on the practicality of communist features in American society, the benefits of those features against the current American system, and held private discussions on the matter multiple times. You can laugh or groan about my positions, but I have influenced people with my rhetoric. I intend to influence more people.
People groan or laugh about my political position on a regular basis. Several people have praised me on the strength of my arguments, one sent me a death threat in person, and the majority grilled me on the details of my proposals. *shrugs*
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on May 03, 2020, 12:35:14 AM
Well, I'm not going to tell you not to write, but you may have to work at polishing your writing a great deal to get us to overlook all the corpses.  And torture chambers.  And show trials.  And famines.  And prison camps.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on May 03, 2020, 01:11:06 AM
First rule of persuasive writing/speaking: know your audience. When the majority of your posts come across as keyword-triggered propaganda pamphlets, don't expect much from people engaged in actual conversations.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Bearu on May 03, 2020, 01:32:45 AM
Well, I'm not going to tell you not to write, but you may have to work at polishing your writing a great deal to get us to overlook all the corpses.  And torture chambers.  And show trials.  And famines.  And prison camps.
A leader does not need the mass support of the subjects because the majority of the people in the society need only fear the ruling group and not necessarily love the group. Good rulers need only the avoidance of hate from their subjects.
A Paraphrase from Niccolo Machiavelli's "The Qualities of a Prince" in The Prince

The ends justify the means.

I would normally avoid these admissions because I would want to elicit the audience's emotions of euphoria, indignation, or guilt.

I promote the abolition of modern prisons in the United States of America. The prison system remains racist and horrible at the reintegration of people. Socialist prisons promote rehabilitation instead of punishment through the application of thought reform on most dissenters. Thought reform continues today in China and China possesses a lower recidivism rate than the United States of America for inmates and more productive rates of employment after reintegration in Chinese society.

The Chinese Communist Party applies thought reform, aka reeducation or brainwashing, on the Chinese Muslims, Falun Gong, and Chinese Buddhists. I support the imprisonment of religious leaders for their hooliganism and the reeducation of religious followers because the majority of religious followers suffer from misguided sentiments on morality from ancient scriptures, more modern advertising, and superstitious attitudes instead of science and reason.

I could not care less about the application of torture on heinous prisoners as long the process produces useful reintegration. My studies for my History degree indicates torture remains useful for the elicitation of compliance and horrible for the extraction of accurate information.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 03, 2020, 01:43:27 AM
First rule of persuasive writing/speaking: know your audience. When the majority of your posts come across as keyword-triggered propaganda pamphlets, don't expect much from people engaged in actual conversations.
Furthermore, the lame book-communism has mutated from Marx -who had a couple of good points, for all of the colossal naivete on human nature making it unworkable- to Lenin, who ended up hopelessly and forever mired in Bossman thuggery difficult to distinguish from fascism.

-Even worse, it's boring to read.  And unlike Elok, I can and have told you to cool it with this crap.  When you participate in the on-topic areas, as you have of late, the management smiles; when you escalate with your repulsive advocation of religious repression and torture, the Management considers banning you from OT permanently.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on May 03, 2020, 02:24:50 AM
I assume that means we should not engage, BU?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 03, 2020, 02:45:16 AM
I assume that means we should not engage, BU?
Gee - no, I don't want to step on a good argument, just, advocation of religious repression and torture in my house…

Respond please.  But his bullcrap has been irritating me for years, less because I find it disgustingly stupid than that we've got a member with a high-security job this nonsense causes trouble for.

I miss Jarlwolf; now there was a real commie you could talk to about it.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on May 03, 2020, 03:12:09 AM
See, it doesn't strike me as fair if I can argue against [horrible thing] but he's not allowed to argue back.  It's not sporting.  Also, I'm not sure there's any argument to have.  I was proceeding on the assumption that he was a "The Gulag Archipelago was all made up" kind of communist.  Was planning to tell him about the time I met a priest who'd been tortured for years in a Romanian dungeon.  Instead he accepts that they did horrible things and does not condemn them.  Okay.  How does one engage with that?  We differ on an axiomatic level.  There's no common ground here.  I guess I could point out that the torture was not terribly productive, as Romania's top communist got overthrown and killed and the priest died in freedom years later.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 03, 2020, 03:28:04 AM
Well yeah; it's not the communism that upsets me - it's the going Stalin.

And while I've grown beyond making it my problem when someone's wrong on the internet -mostly- I feel responsible for what gets said here, where I am responsible -and paying for it.  There's lines, and I hardly have every possible line worked out in advance, but the decency line has been crossed here, and I won't continue to have that.

-I'm not necessarily averse to member feedback on the point...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on May 03, 2020, 04:38:30 AM
I could not care less about the application of torture on heinous prisoners as long the process produces useful reintegration. My studies for my History degree indicates torture remains useful for the elicitation of compliance and horrible for the extraction of accurate information.

These are the words of someone who is extremely sure the instruments of the state will not be turned against them. Historically speaking, that's not been a great bet, especially in dictatorships.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on May 03, 2020, 06:44:08 AM
I could not care less about the application of torture on heinous prisoners as long the process produces useful reintegration. My studies for my History degree indicates torture remains useful for the elicitation of compliance and horrible for the extraction of accurate information.

These are the words of someone who is extremely sure the instruments of the state will not be turned against them. Historically speaking, that's not been a great bet, especially in dictatorships.

Funny you say that. I just finished reading an article on the North-Korean infamous Kim Jong-un over his absence these last couple of weeks. It delved a bit into possible successors if something was to happen to him. Seems the list narrowed down quite a bit since the previous leader Kim Jong-il deceased back in 2011.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on May 03, 2020, 06:44:54 PM
I could not care less about the application of torture on heinous prisoners as long the process produces useful reintegration. My studies for my History degree indicates torture remains useful for the elicitation of compliance and horrible for the extraction of accurate information.

These are the words of someone who is extremely sure the instruments of the state will not be turned against them. Historically speaking, that's not been a great bet, especially in dictatorships.
Whom was it, Trosky(sp) that was a compatriot of Lenin's whom Stalin had had murdered due to him being next in line after Lenin (originally).  A prime example of using the instruments of the state to kill someone they did not like...  "Will no one rid me of this d@mn Priest?"
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on May 03, 2020, 06:51:13 PM
In case I didn't post a link to it previously, here it is...

Frontline: China Undercover
Quote
With undercover footage and firsthand accounts from survivors of China's detention camps, FRONTLINE investigates the Communist regime’s mass imprisonment of Muslims, and its use of sophisticated surveillance technology against the Uyghur community. 
https://www.pbs.org/video/china-undercover-zqcoh2/ (https://www.pbs.org/video/china-undercover-zqcoh2/)
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Bearu on May 03, 2020, 07:50:04 PM
First rule of persuasive writing/speaking: know your audience. When the majority of your posts come across as keyword-triggered propaganda pamphlets, don't expect much from people engaged in actual conversations.
Furthermore, the lame book-communism has mutated from Marx -who had a couple of good points, for all of the colossal naivete on human nature making it unworkable- to Lenin, who ended up hopelessly and forever mired in Bossman thuggery difficult to distinguish from fascism.

-Even worse, it's boring to read.  And unlike Elok, I can and have told you to cool it with this crap.  When you participate in the on-topic areas, as you have of late, the management smiles; when you escalate with your repulsive advocation of religious repression and torture, the Management considers banning you from OT permanently.
Well yeah; it's not the communism that upsets me - it's the going Stalin.

And while I've grown beyond making it my problem when someone's wrong on the internet -mostly- I feel responsible for what gets said here, where I am responsible -and paying for it.  There's lines, and I hardly have every possible line worked out in advance, but the decency line has been crossed here, and I won't continue to have that.

-I'm not necessarily averse to member feedback on the point...
I believe you place criticism on me from a position of good faith, and I accept your criticisms.

I recognize your power to implement regulations of discourse on your server, and I can comprehend the awkward position of a moderator.

The concept of decency for a moderator remains a tricky subject. Decency depends on the culture, audience, and members. The majority of historical subjects I study for my degree address issues outside the relatively strict American standard of decency, and I suspect the maintenance of decency obscures the real political issues behind 2020 American politics.

I further admit I might have been a bit aggressive in the tone of my statements on my positions.

I mention my position on these types of issues because political structures form the foundation of political issues seen in 2020 American politics. The issues of repression, censorship, and mandates for excessive powers in the current American administration and any American adminstration of the past century and half formed the foundation of modern politics and requires a resolution in modern times from the adaption and update of effective historical models from outside sources. Without a civil discussion of the political issues, a greater awareness of possible solutions among the people for these political issues remains an impossibility and generates greater political polarization.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Bearu on May 03, 2020, 07:55:35 PM
I could not care less about the application of torture on heinous prisoners as long the process produces useful reintegration. My studies for my History degree indicates torture remains useful for the elicitation of compliance and horrible for the extraction of accurate information.

These are the words of someone who is extremely sure the instruments of the state will not be turned against them. Historically speaking, that's not been a great bet, especially in dictatorships.

Funny you say that. I just finished reading an article on the North-Korean infamous Kim Jong-un over his absence these last couple of weeks. It delved a bit into possible successors if something was to happen to him. Seems the list narrowed down quite a bit since the previous leader Kim Jong-il deceased back in 2011.
Stable dictatorships require legitimacy, co-option of the opposition, and repression of people. The leaders of many dictatorship from the Sumerian Kingdoms to the Roman Republics through the 20th century suffered from succession issues and legitimacy crises. Regardless of your position on issues of social incorporation, dictatorships often managed this issue through the cultivation of a chosen successor and elimination of other potential rivals. The Democratic People's Republic of Korea will likely perform a similar process under Kim Jung-un because the leadership assumed a form of monarchy.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Bearu on May 03, 2020, 08:08:14 PM
In case I didn't post a link to it previously, here it is...

Frontline: China Undercover
Quote
With undercover footage and firsthand accounts from survivors of China's detention camps, FRONTLINE investigates the Communist regime’s mass imprisonment of Muslims, and its use of sophisticated surveillance technology against the Uyghur community. 
https://www.pbs.org/video/china-undercover-zqcoh2/ (https://www.pbs.org/video/china-undercover-zqcoh2/)
From my understanding of Chinese history, some of the Chinese Muslims in Xinjiang created terror problems for the government in the 1990s and early 2000s.

The other section of the issue remains the Communist Party's stance on unregulated religion in the country. The Communist Party of China historically and currently persecutes religious groups under the influence of lessons from events like the Taiping rebellion's subversion of the political stability of the Chinese state under strong religious minorities. China's failure in the promotion of political action against the threat might have generated civil instability from the Han majority.

Furthermore, I suspect our government remains only minimally better on the issue of surveillance and the majority of Americans accept the current status quo of mass surveillance for our society in the name of "security" against alleged religious terrorists. Why would China, in its own method, perform any other action?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on May 03, 2020, 08:41:02 PM
Stable dictatorships require legitimacy, co-option of the opposition, and repression of people. The leaders of many dictatorship from the Sumerian Kingdoms to the Roman Republics through the 20th century suffered from succession issues and legitimacy crises.

Kinda why we (humans, not the US) invented democracy. Waaaaay more stability and less repression if you just let people decide who the next leader should be. Yeah, democracy is rife with issues--corruption by special interests, demagoguery, etc.--but I'll take those over the brutal torture and killing of any opposition any day.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on May 03, 2020, 08:41:59 PM
dp
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Bearu on May 03, 2020, 09:19:42 PM
Stable dictatorships require legitimacy, co-option of the opposition, and repression of people. The leaders of many dictatorship from the Sumerian Kingdoms to the Roman Republics through the 20th century suffered from succession issues and legitimacy crises.

Kinda why we (humans, not the US) invented democracy. Waaaaay more stability and less repression if you just let people decide who the next leader should be. Yeah, democracy is rife with issues--corruption by special interests, demagoguery, etc.--but I'll take those over the brutal torture and killing of any opposition any day.
I can respect your opinion of democracy and dictatorships.
The spoiler contains a large wall of text you may or may not want to read on democracies.
(click to show/hide)
5. Democracy remains limited to the elite and privileged members of society well into the 19th century, and most nations consisted of autocratic rulers globally until the end of World War I. Europe consisted mostly of absolutist monarchies and authoritarian governments until the destruction of the Ottoman Empire, Austrian Hungarian Empire, and Germany.
Democracy in the United States of America continues a downward decline in openness according to global polls, and I suspect, based on history, the world will experience a resurgence of authoritarianism. We should embrace the resurgence of authoritarianism because competent leaders in authoritarian governments have achieved spectacular results for society.

Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on May 03, 2020, 09:38:14 PM
If you'll notice, my argument in favor of democracy was that it allowed for peaceful transitions of power. There are other benefits, but that might be the largest one.

But there is another very big one...

We should embrace the resurgence of authoritarianism because competent leaders in authoritarian governments have achieved spectacular results for society.

...again, spoken like someone who is veeeery certain they'll be on the side of the "competent leaders."
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on May 03, 2020, 09:48:05 PM
I don't mean that as a snide remark. I mean that as an important criticism of authoritarianism. When people favor dictatorship/autocracy/whatever, they're mostly favoring the ability to get things done. Like episode 2 Anakin flirting with Padme/tyranny.


But the thing is, when you empower the state to control people's lives absolutely, your good intentions and competency don't mean squat if you lose power and someone less good and less competent gains it. Then you've just given terrible people the power to do terrible things and say every bit of it was "legal." And if you decide the solution is to just do whatever it takes to maintain power, then, well... you end up being the terrible person doing terrible things, because you're no longer trying to use your power to help people.

Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on May 03, 2020, 11:23:36 PM
I'm kind of puzzled by your criticizing democracy for restricting the franchise when you favor authoritarian regimes where the franchise is effectively restricted to a handful of guys in a room, some of whom may be plotting to liquidate the others.  Democracies can become more fair and open; authoritarian societies can too, by ceasing to be authoritarian.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Bearu on May 03, 2020, 11:42:02 PM
If you'll notice, my argument in favor of democracy was that it allowed for peaceful transitions of power. There are other benefits, but that might be the largest one.

But there is another very big one...

We should embrace the resurgence of authoritarianism because competent leaders in authoritarian governments have achieved spectacular results for society.

...again, spoken like someone who is veeeery certain they'll be on the side of the "competent leaders."

No problem on the remark. I did not take the response as a snide comment.

Basically my major points on the time line of history remain the class interests of the elite members of "democratic" societies precluded most people from either voting or influencing the outcome of voting in the transitions of power.

Why would your modern democratic society enable your vote significant influence on the transition of power from an election? The majority of the elections remain publicity stunts focused on the construction of an candidate's image.

Democratic voting serves as a distraction for the population from the remediation of more pressing issues in modern American society like corporations' prevalent and persistent violation of worker rights, inability for the passage of land reform, inadequate protection of worker rights from the government, absence of food guarantees, absence of guaranteed housing, absence of universal medical care, inadequate support for education, and unstable employment.

These achievements all appear in Cuba today under Cuba's international medical system and nationalized housing. China possesses better systems for uplifting impoverished citizens than the United States of America. The Soviet Union possessed propiska for the guarantee of housing for all citizens without the possibility of eviction except for willful negligence of upkeep and/or criminal activity. The rental rates I quoted for my speeches remained the average citizen of the USSR spent between 4%-12% of their net income on housing compared to the United States citizen's average of around 20-45% of net income depending on the area. The USSR

Edit: Lorizael remained correct on my desire for the authoritarian governments' ability to achieve more rapid results using different methods from democratic governments.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Bearu on May 03, 2020, 11:53:12 PM
I'm kind of puzzled by your criticizing democracy for restricting the franchise when you favor authoritarian regimes where the franchise is effectively restricted to a handful of guys in a room, some of whom may be plotting to liquidate the others.  Democracies can become more fair and open; authoritarian societies can too, by ceasing to be authoritarian.
1, What difference does an authoritarian society or democratic society make if both restrict transitions of power through voting? Democracies indirectly manipulate people's votes under the influence of government systems like the Electoral College, gerrymandering, or advertising while the authoritarian societies rig elections for specific candidates and enable a small pool of possible candidates.
2. Democracies never possess the power for the rapid introduction of necessary changes for the resolution of society's problems, and authoritarian governments possess that power.

I don't mean that as a snide remark. I mean that as an important criticism of authoritarianism. When people favor dictatorship/autocracy/whatever, they're mostly favoring the ability to get things done. Like episode 2 Anakin flirting with Padme/tyranny.


But the thing is, when you empower the state to control people's lives absolutely, your good intentions and competency don't mean squat if you lose power and someone less good and less competent gains it. Then you've just given terrible people the power to do terrible things and say every bit of it was "legal." And if you decide the solution is to just do whatever it takes to maintain power, then, well... you end up being the terrible person doing terrible things, because you're no longer trying to use your power to help people.

The same process occurs inside the United States of America where a small number of groups control the passage of legislation and enter into Congress with minimal representation of the people's actual interests. The political scientists call it the Iron Triangle.
The current American Congress possesses only a small handful of non millionaires and elite people. I would take the risk of a horrible leader gaining power after a great leader over a lifetime of mediocre leadership from a democratically elected system.

edit: We already have horrible people in power, so the horrible people maintain control in Congress through political manipulation under the name of legal technicalities. Only egregious cases of corruption receive prosecution.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on May 04, 2020, 12:33:11 AM
I'm guessing that you didn't even watch the program (and if you did, not with an open mind to the possibility that it could even be close to factually correct, requiring you to rethink some of your positions..).
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on May 04, 2020, 12:55:47 AM
To be fair the prequels are bad.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Bearu on May 04, 2020, 01:00:06 AM
I'm guessing that you didn't even watch the program (and if you did, not with an open mind to the possibility that it could even be close to factually correct, requiring you to rethink some of your positions..).
I will admit I did not watch the videos until now. I have now watched both videos. I admit the similarities between my position and man in the first video. I had to think how to phrase a response.
I have said I would not want to work as the figurehead of a new movement because my personality clashes with the demands of such a position. I would want to remain below the main figures if possible. I still support discussion of issues because the collection of new information remains an essential tool for effective leadership. American democracy fails in those metrics.
The process also reminds me of mass line. Mass line remains another tool where the leadership requires discussion of an issue until the group majority votes on an issue and reaches a majority consensus. After that point, everyone follows the agreed consensus.
The second video implies violence results from negative emotions towards others. I cannot agree with the sentiment of the second video. I still stand by original stance in the previous post. Often times the videos portray issues in bipolar oppositions. These bipolar opposition hinders the gray area of character motivations.

edit: Clarity and decency.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on May 04, 2020, 01:41:43 AM
So, in less than a 1/2 hour, you watched one program that is 54 minutes, 22 seconds of run time and something else as well, then composed your reply and then edited it for "Clarity and decency".  Dang, I wish I could compress time as effectively as you do, I could play much more Factorial than I currently have been doing of late AND do everything else I would like to do with all of that additional time...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on May 04, 2020, 01:55:57 AM
This is just beautiful. I am so glad to have been a part of it.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Bearu on May 04, 2020, 01:56:21 AM
So, in less than a 1/2 hour, you watched one program that is 54 minutes, 22 seconds of run time and something else as well, then composed your reply and then edited it for "Clarity and decency".  Dang, I wish I could compress time as effectively as you do, I could play much more Factorial than I currently have been doing of late AND do everything else I would like to do with all of that additional time...
Do you mean the PBS Front line series on the Chinese Muslims in Xinjiang? If you do mean the PBS series, I sincerely apologize for the inconsistency. I thought you referred to the star wars videos.
I have seen, read, and heard the footage and allegations on China Daily news, a vlogger from China, and other sources before now. The media started reporting on this issue almost 2 years ago. I will need more time to take in the specifics of PBS.

Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on May 04, 2020, 12:33:44 PM
Just a note that it is possible to play YouTube videos at accelerated speeds; I often do, when it's a video of somebody long-winded lecturing.

Anyway, Bearu is correct that communist and otherwise authoritarian governments are better at getting dramatic things done quickly, because there are fewer checks and balances in the way of one or two guys saying, "hey, let's do this."  The only problem being that, in the absence of those checks and balances--in combination with a culture where administrators are terrified of admitting failure or criticizing leadership--a lot of those dramatic things wind up being dramatically stupid.  Such as "let's kill all the sparrows" or "we'll have a new industrial revolution by having peasants operate backyard smelters" or "this one guy says Darwin is wrong and that sounds anti-capitalist so let's overthrow all accepted agricultural practice" or "people with glasses are necessarily corrupt and Western so let's kill them."  If need be, democratic and capitalist societies are capable of rapid performance; the US barely had an army when we entered WWII, and by the end we were basically drowning Hitler in tanks.  Also, race to the moon.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on May 04, 2020, 05:24:50 PM
Or using Light internally or injecting bleach to help with the virus...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Bearu on May 06, 2020, 02:06:18 AM
Just a note that it is possible to play YouTube videos at accelerated speeds; I often do, when it's a video of somebody long-winded lecturing.

Anyway, Bearu is correct that communist and otherwise authoritarian governments are better at getting dramatic things done quickly, because there are fewer checks and balances in the way of one or two guys saying, "hey, let's do this."  The only problem being that, in the absence of those checks and balances--in combination with a culture where administrators are terrified of admitting failure or criticizing leadership--a lot of those dramatic things wind up being dramatically stupid.  Such as "let's kill all the sparrows" or "we'll have a new industrial revolution by having peasants operate backyard smelters" or "this one guy says Darwin is wrong and that sounds anti-capitalist so let's overthrow all accepted agricultural practice" or "people with glasses are necessarily corrupt and Western so let's kill them."  If need be, democratic and capitalist societies are capable of rapid performance; the US barely had an army when we entered WWII, and by the end we were basically drowning Hitler in tanks.  Also, race to the moon.
I agree with your analysis on the stupidity of Chairman Mao's promotion of backyard furnaces and killing sparrows in the Great Leap Forward of 1956-1958. I also agree on the foolishness of the Soviet Union's advocacy of the Lysenkoism in the USSR and refusal for the adoption of cybernetics until later than the United States of America. Hitler lost World War II partially from a lack of coordination between Japan and Germany on military efforts. If Japan and Germany coordinated military production and military movement, then Japan and Germany might have won the war.

The United States of Franklin Roosevelt implemented authoritarian planning measures under the War Planning Office, War Production Board, and other relief measures. These programs expanded the American central government more than any other president. Presently, I suspect certain American Republicans desire a removal of FDR's expansion of policy positions on Social Security and Medicare. The only reason these people refrain from enacting those policies remains the outrage from their  older constituents.

However, Mao also implemented some interesting and effective policies like the Bare Foot Doctor policies from the 1940s to the end of Mao's life for the removal of the discrepancy in quality and access to the medical care between rural and urban areas of China for a mere fraction of the cost of the medical systems seen in the United States of America or Europe. Cuba's equivalent of Maoist China's medical system provides better access to medical care today per unit of cost for the citizens than the United States of America. China, the USSR, and other socialist countries provided guaranteed housing for workers under the resident permit systems with lower rates of consumption at around 4-11% of net income. Stalin in the 1920s and 1930s industrialized Russia in about 15 years for World War II through the multiple factors of increase in steel production and output of coal energy production.

Conservative authoritarian governments like Prussia and Germany under Otto Von Bismarck expanded universal education, universal health care for the German population, and worker protections in the 1870s through the 1890s before healthcare and worker protections existed in most countries.

My point remains the potential changes for positive from an authoritarian government brings about innovations unseen in democratic societies. The variability of policy shifts from extremely positive to extremely negative in authoritarian governments versus the more reformist policies seen in democracies where the reform policies never completely address the underlying issues.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on May 06, 2020, 06:15:14 PM
To return somewhat to the thread topic...

I view Trump as basically a prank caller in the oval office, little different than leaving it vacant.

I think our present crisis should be evidence enough that nobody home at the White House is dangerous and unacceptable. There's plenty of blame to go around in the bureaucratic morass of the FDA and CDC, but a president who hadn't ignored the dire warnings in his daily briefings for months could have provided critical leadership at the beginning. Instead, we have ~70,000 dead and 2,000 more dying each day and no clear plan of how to get through this, because Trump's thorough incompetence squandered the extra time we bought by quarantining. However unenthusiastic I am about Biden, I am very confident he (and the people he appointed) would have done better, where better means a lot fewer dead people.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Bearu on May 07, 2020, 01:12:23 AM
I think our present crisis should be evidence enough that nobody home at the White House is dangerous and unacceptable. There's plenty of blame to go around in the bureaucratic morass of the FDA and CDC, but a president who hadn't ignored the dire warnings in his daily briefings for months could have provided critical leadership at the beginning. Instead, we have ~70,000 dead and 2,000 more dying each day and no clear plan of how to get through this, because Trump's thorough incompetence squandered the extra time we bought by quarantining. However unenthusiastic I am about Biden, I am very confident he (and the people he appointed) would have done better, where better means a lot fewer dead people.
I think this defines a dangerous person because the gross incompetence of Donald Trump directly resulted in the death of people. In most other positions, someone might have charged Donald Trump for gross negligence resulting in death.
I suspect American historians in the next thirty years will rate Donald Trump with other poor presidents like Herbert Hoover.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on May 07, 2020, 01:57:29 AM
To return somewhat to the thread topic...

I view Trump as basically a prank caller in the oval office, little different than leaving it vacant.

I think our present crisis should be evidence enough that nobody home at the White House is dangerous and unacceptable. There's plenty of blame to go around in the bureaucratic morass of the FDA and CDC, but a president who hadn't ignored the dire warnings in his daily briefings for months could have provided critical leadership at the beginning. Instead, we have ~70,000 dead and 2,000 more dying each day and no clear plan of how to get through this, because Trump's thorough incompetence squandered the extra time we bought by quarantining. However unenthusiastic I am about Biden, I am very confident he (and the people he appointed) would have done better, where better means a lot fewer dead people.
I suspect the final result would not be much better with Biden in charge, for the simple reason that Trumpists will outlast Trump, and any attempt at discipline imposed by a Blue president will be met with enormous and irrational hostility, and broad refusal to comply.  They certainly wouldn't have gone along with anything Hillary said to do, after three years butting heads with her.  I'm also unsure how much good a different president could have done given how prolific this little bugger is, and how hard a time we're having learning about it.  The main benefit of delay, that I can see, is that we're starting to get a better handle on how to treat it--but we only got there by massive trial and error on a huge group of patients, so ...
In the abstract, yes, it's better to have a president whose head is not entirely up his own rectum in a crisis.  I only question how big a difference we would see in practice.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on May 07, 2020, 03:17:06 AM
Well, let's trade Atlantic articles. This is from 2018 and written by a very excellent science writer, Ed Yong. It details all the things we have and haven't done to prepare for pandemics, and what we can do to be ready for the next one.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/07/when-the-next-plague-hits/561734/

And then there's this bit near the end:

Quote
And Donald Trump? “I haven’t had any interaction with him yet,” Fauci says. “But in fairness, there hasn’t been a situation.”

There surely will be, though. At some point, a new virus will emerge to test Trump’s mettle. What happens then? He has no background in science or health, and has surrounded himself with little such expertise. The President’s Council of Advisers on Science and Technology, a group of leading scientists who consult on policy matters, is dormant. The Office of Science and Technology Policy, which has advised presidents on everything from epidemics to nuclear disasters since 1976, is diminished. The head of that office typically acts as the president’s chief scientific consigliere, but to date no one has been appointed.

Other parts of Trump’s administration that will prove crucial during an epidemic have operated like an Etch A Sketch. During the nine months I spent working on this story, Tom Price resigned as secretary of health and human services after using taxpayer money to fund charter flights (although his replacement, Alex Azar, is arguably better prepared, having dealt with anthrax, flu, and sars during the Bush years). Brenda Fitzgerald stepped down as CDC director after it became known that she had bought stock in tobacco companies; her replacement, Robert Redfield, has a long track record studying HIV, but relatively little public-health experience.

Rear Admiral Tim Ziemer, a veteran malaria fighter, was appointed to the National Security Council, in part to oversee the development of the White House’s forthcoming biosecurity strategy. When I met Ziemer at the White House in February, he hadn’t spoken with the president, but said pandemic preparedness was a priority for the administration. He left in May.

Organizing a federal response to an emerging pandemic is harder than one might think. The largely successful U.S. response to Ebola in 2014 benefited from the special appointment of an “Ebola czar”—Klain—to help coordinate the many agencies that face unclear responsibilities. In 2016, when Obama asked for $1.9 billion to fight Zika, Congress devolved into partisan squabbling. Republicans wanted to keep the funds away from clinics that worked with Planned Parenthood, and Democrats opposed the restriction. It took more than seven months to appropriate $1.1 billion; by then, the CDC and NIH had been forced to divert funds meant to deal with flu, HIV, and the next Ebola.

How will Trump manage such a situation? Back in 2014, he called Obama a “psycho” for not banning flights from Ebola-afflicted countries, even though no direct flights existed, and even though health experts noted that travel restrictions hadn’t helped control sars or H1N1. Counterintuitively, flight bans increase the odds that outbreaks will spread by driving fearful patients underground, forcing them to seek alternative and even illegal transport routes. They also discourage health workers from helping to contain foreign outbreaks, for fear that they’ll be denied reentry into their home country. Trump clearly felt that such Americans should be denied reentry. “KEEP THEM OUT OF HERE!” he tweeted, before questioning the evidence that Ebola is not as contagious as is commonly believed.

Trump called Obama “dumb” for deploying the military to countries suffering from the Ebola outbreak, and he now commands that same military. His dislike of outsiders and disdain for diplomacy could lead him to spurn the cooperative, outward-facing strategies that work best to contain emergent pandemics.

Perhaps the two most important things a leader can personally provide in the midst of an epidemic are reliable information and a unifying spirit. In the absence of strong countermeasures, severe outbreaks tear communities apart, forcing people to fear their neighbors; the longest-lasting damage can be psychosocial. Trump’s tendency to tweet rashly, delegitimize legitimate sources of information, and readily buy into conspiracy theories could be disastrous.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on May 07, 2020, 04:13:20 PM
Yes, but--there's always a yes, but--as that quoted block itself suggests, the root problem predates Trump.  Obama was far more effective as a leader than Biden could be, and he couldn't clear the cash for Zika for half a year.  Trump is the culmination (for now) of twenty-plus years of degraded political culture.  We're now in hard zero-sum power politics territory.  It's hard to say whether Biden would be a significant net improvement; it's entirely possible--have I said this here yet, or at Poly?--that he'll be caught helpless between the radical left wing of his own party and diehard GOP opposition.  It's hard to say whether Biden would slow or accelerate the disintegration.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Dewbacca on May 07, 2020, 04:23:11 PM
Quote
They certainly wouldn't have gone along with anything Hillary said to do, after three years butting heads with her.

Is it a bad thing when idiots kill themselves off? Isn't that at the heart of Darwinian thinking?
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on May 07, 2020, 05:48:19 PM
Quote
They certainly wouldn't have gone along with anything Hillary said to do, after three years butting heads with her.

Is it a bad thing when idiots kill themselves off? Isn't that at the heart of Darwinian thinking?

Since you're arguing that idiocy is heritable: is it a bad thing when people with, say, cystic fibrosis die off? Unless you're actually a eugenicist, my guess is you'll say no. The difference is you don't get angry at people who have cystic fibrosis.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on May 07, 2020, 05:56:31 PM
Also, leaving aside morality, the disease does seem to strike densely populated urban areas, eg New York, ie Blue Zone.  Red areas are less affected by the disease, but more likely to fret about economic downturn since many of them were marginal already.  I live in Bay County, FL; we've been shaky since the hurricane in 10/18, but there have been all of three coronavirus deaths.  Just for context.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Dewbacca on May 07, 2020, 06:43:23 PM
Quote
Since you're arguing that idiocy is heritable

Am I? I am just looking for the silver lining to living with idiots. I in no way insinuate it is inherited from your parents. IGNORANCE could be from parents sheltering children or teaching them fairy tales as reality, but idiocy can spawn in an otherwise intelligent lineage.

Quote
is it a bad thing when people with, say, cystic fibrosis die off?
I certainly have no desire to draw out there suffering for my ethical solitude. I do not WISH death upon anyone, but in terminal situations, there should be an option for a painless death. Not a forced suffering to salve some societal moral conscious.

But the point here is that "I" am not wishing death upon anyone, rather acknowledging the idiot's rights to die if they choose, and the foolishness of standing in their way.

These folks need their own county or state and we'll finish that wall Trump gets so excited about by wrapping it around that state.

The "Red State vs Blue state" is a fabricated issue. Rural vs Urban is genuine, and intensify transmission that will eventually continue into rural areas that will most certainly be less prepared to deal with it than larger population centers with more developed healthcare.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on May 07, 2020, 07:53:57 PM
Quote
Since you're arguing that idiocy is heritable

Am I?

Well, you were talking about Darwinism.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Dewbacca on May 08, 2020, 02:52:51 AM
By Darwinism I imply that negative traits they have developed will not be passed on to a new generation, aka "The Darwin Awards".
https://darwinawards.com/
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Lorizael on May 08, 2020, 03:05:26 AM
That's Lysenkoism, not Darwinism. ;)
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on May 09, 2020, 08:28:09 PM
Also, leaving aside morality, the disease does seem to strike densely populated urban areas, eg New York, ie Blue Zone.  Red areas are less affected by the disease, but more likely to fret about economic downturn since many of them were marginal already.  I live in Bay County, FL; we've been shaky since the hurricane in 10/18, but there have been all of three coronavirus deaths.  Just for context.
When I was stationed at Eglin AFB, my buddies and I had visited Panama City.  Other than that, I would travel via SR 20 between Eglin and where I grew up in Apopka, FL.  Was just under 400 miles, which was the mandated distance for one day travel via motor vehicle, that the military allowed when on leave.  I could take a week (or less) leave to Apopka without any problem.  One time, I stayed on 98 and could say that I had traveled along the Florida Gulf Coast in my past...
I would take 441 to Ocala, 27 to Alt 27 to Chiefland, US 98 to Newport and the Wildlife area, FL 267 to FL 20 to Niceville and down into Eglin...
[EDIT] Thing is, except for Panama City, which is a big tourist trap, which was more or less shut down fairly early, most of that area is fairly rural, which helps with keeping the spread down...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Geo on May 09, 2020, 08:33:21 PM
I would take 441 to Ocala, 27 to Alt 27 to Chiefland, US 98 to Newport and the Wildlife area, FL 267 to FL 20 to Niceville and down into Eglin...

Just cruisin'...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Elok on May 17, 2020, 12:06:47 AM
Eh, Amash is out anyway.  Well, I can save the bother of registering, so that's something.  I'm just going to avoid saying who I like from now on, it's clearly cursed.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on May 17, 2020, 03:27:57 AM
Eh, Amash is out anyway.  Well, I can save the bother of registering, so that's something.  I'm just going to avoid saying who I like from now on, it's clearly cursed.

I can relate, last cycle , originally I only asked that Obama's successor not be a Clinton or a Bush, which I feared would lock us into a plutocracy.  This time I prayed for a president who would be less than 70 years old when they were sworn in. Neither really worked out that well.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on May 17, 2020, 04:30:21 AM
well, we either get to see how Biden will screw up (especially with Trump sniping at him continually) or wait another 4 more years and pray that Pence doesn't get the Nomination (likely) in 2024.  And I'm almost certain that if Biden does win, that Trump will run again in 2024 (has happened before).

Thing that I'm afraid of is him not giving up the office, once being voted out.  Or he'll tie up the election results in court to the very last day and then claim that he was railroaded by the (use favorite target of the week here), which will do nothing more than make things that much worse than they already are...
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Unorthodox on June 03, 2020, 01:00:56 AM
For those that don’t follow aro. 
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Bearu on June 03, 2020, 03:03:41 AM
I am not surprised. Allegations against Donald Trump's father include participation in the second iteration of the KKK in a New York City parade in 1927.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/02/28/in-1927-donald-trumps-father-was-arrested-after-a-klan-riot-in-queens/ (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/02/28/in-1927-donald-trumps-father-was-arrested-after-a-klan-riot-in-queens/)
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on June 03, 2020, 05:15:07 AM
UnO, let Aro Know that it's fantastic!!
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 03, 2020, 06:43:35 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/cia-veterans-who-monitored-crackdowns-abroad-see-troubling-parallels-in-trump-handling-of-protests/2020/06/02/7ab210b8-a4f6-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html?utm_campaign=wp_post_most&utm_medium=email&utm_source=newsletter&wpisrc=nl_most

[ “I’ve seen this kind of violence,” said Gail Helt, a former CIA analyst responsible for tracking developments in China and Southeast Asia. “This is what autocrats do. This is what happens in countries before a collapse. It really does unnerve me.”]

Maybe it's not just me.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on June 04, 2020, 01:02:12 AM
Dang Washington Post requires subscription to even browse and article.
Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: Rusty Edge on June 04, 2020, 02:39:38 AM
Dang Washington Post requires subscription to even browse and article.

Sorry. I subscribed years ago when Chito Mussolini threatened to stop them from printing the truth about him.

Another excerpt-
[Marc Polymeropoulos, who formerly ran CIA operations in Europe and Asia, was among several former agency officials who recoiled at images of Trump hoisting a Bible in front of St. John’s Episcopal Church in Washington after authorities fired rubber bullets and tear gas to clear the president’s path of protesters.

“It reminded me of what I reported on for years in the third world,” Polymeropoulos said on Twitter. Referring to the despotic leaders of Iraq, Syria and Libya, he said: “Saddam. Bashar. Qaddafi. They all did this.”

The impression Trump created was only reinforced by others in the administration. Defense Secretary Mark T. Esper urged governors to “dominate the battlespace” surrounding protesters, as if describing U.S. cities as a foreign war zone. Later, as military helicopters hovered menacingly over protesters, Gen. Mark A. Milley, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, toured the streets of the nation’s capital in his battle fatigue uniform.]

Title: Re: Politics 2020
Post by: E_T on June 04, 2020, 07:57:06 AM
Quote
James Mattis Denounces President Trump, Describes Him as a Threat to the Constitution

In an extraordinary condemnation, the former defense secretary backs protesters and says the president is trying to turn Americans against one another.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/06/james-mattis-denounces-trump-protests-militarization/612640/?utm_content=edit-promo&utm_medium=social&utm_term=2020-06-03T21%25253A59%25253A05&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=the-atlantic