Alpha Centauri 2

Community => Chiron News Network => Topic started by: Yitzi on September 28, 2014, 03:14:52 AM

Title: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on September 28, 2014, 03:14:52 AM
Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e

http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=272 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;down=272)

Fixed another bug with one of the modding options, thanks to TarMinyatur for finding it.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on September 29, 2014, 06:10:09 AM
Does this patch include kyrub's AI fixes? I noticed in one game where i was fighting drones and i was allied with consciousness/morgan, they did not do anything except spam probe teams (that were unescorted and killed before they could do anything) and any combat units they built just turtled inside their bases. The main problem was that once in a war, it seems that AIs build NOTHING but combat units/probe teams....200 turns into the game, both consciousness/morgan had size 4 HQs without even a children's creche (although i had given them highly advanced research techs ages ago).

Potential bugs :

-Datalinks mod claims that nanoreplicator/singulatory inducer reduces eco damage, yet i tested it ingame and noticed no ecodamage difference between using either one of those and a genejack factory...(same mineral production)

-Sometimes you get multiple "urgent message from a faction leader" popups but when you click "ok", the popup just dissapears and you get another one. This happens a few times in a row until the faction leader stops trying to speak to you. You never actually enter conversation mode.

-When offering to trade tech for tech, if the AI suggests another deal (like selling his tech for your energy), you cannot offer to trade again under the same turns. It seems you only get the option to trade under the same terms if the AI agrees to trade tech for tech, but not if he suggests another type of deal.

-After installing the patch, i noticed that the AI will NEVER surrender, even if you do not commit atrocities and are a human faction fighting another human faction. This is even if you reduce them to a single base and have a massive army surrounding it. Also even if they are on feeble might and you have unsurpassed might, they will repeatedly threaten to destroy you unless you give them techs/energy. This behaviour was not present pre-patch.

-Rescued faction leaders do nearly nothing even if you give them all your tech and tons of energy. The most ive seen them do is expand a bit but they do not appear to do anything except sit there, nor do they attempt to support your vendettas.

-Air units can only damage one ground unit at a time, whereas ground units cause collateral damage and will also kill all mindworms in the same tile if they manage to kill one.

-Not sure if this is a bug, but the planet rating appears to not affect eco-damage eve though it is listed as doing so?

-Bulk matter transitor is incorrectly listed as giving every base +2 minerals in the build facilities screen

-Governor set to auto manage specialists and nothing else will refuse to use any doctors, etc at max pop (e.g. 14 with a hab complex) even if doing so will cause the base to go into golden age with the +1 economy bonus.

-The base screen does not show bonus energy rates if you have +1 economy from SE and am in a golden age (so you get +1 energy per square). The tiles still only show the standard energy rates.

-There is no indication of whether a base is currently in golden age in the base screen and if the bae is in pop boom (demo, planned, children's creche for +6 growth) the growth screen will not show the 1 turn to pop growth, it will still show incorrect numbers like 3 turns to grow, etc.

-Attempts to make random custom maps (using the customize map setting) on small planets show that many factions will start within 10 tiles of each other, while leaving huge areas of landmasses with no starting player. Huge problem as you cannot use small maps without starting location problems (peaceful factions tend to get killed off very early without being able to do anything).

-Probe teams seem very buggy. Incite drone riots seem to do nothing (i had the empath guild, but their drones never increased despite spamming the incite drone riote mission at the base for 5 turns). Mind control costs can be absolutely insane (no polymorphic encryption, a resonance 6 rover seems to take 300+ energy to subvert). Sometimes an AI will have techs that i can steal but my probe teams will just download their world map instead (i can see they have techs i can steal from infiltrators). There is no "your success rate is blah blah blah" for genetic atrocities, it just seems to auto-succeed if they have no probe teams defending (but all other probe team missions can fail even with no defending probe teams). Command center + bio enhancement center is enough to give you elite probe teams with no probe team modifiers in SE (or any secret projects that affect probe team morale), which is odd, shouldnt it be commando level at best?

-Formers set to auto improve will not take into account forest bonuses from tree farms/hybrid forests so they will just spam farms instead of the much higher yield forests. Also one of the more common reasons for the AI not being able to grow their bases.

-You cannot build any terrain imrpovements on the fossil ridge, which makes the +1 mineral bonus useless as you get a base with ocean tiles that have inferior output to one with improvements.

-Damaged airplanes in a airbase do not appear to repair any damage at all unless you have the nano factory, even if they are not being damaged and ar eholding their position.

-There does not appear to be any way to get to the faction datalinks screen (the one you get when you infiltrate another faction, and which shows their SE choices, etc) except through the commlink (which doesnt work if they refuse to talk to you) or unless you infiltrate them again.

Suggestions (if possible)

-Add in a option for formers to auto-plant ONLY forests.

-Balance out farms, etc to make them useful in end game, especially condensers/echelon mirrors that are inferior to forest spamming after you get tree farms/hybrid forests. Maybe give them tech bonuses so that they scale and are a viable alternative to forest spamming?

-Allow formers to increase rockiness, as right now leveling a tile is irreversible

-Prevent landmarks from losing their tile bonuses when elevation changes, and highlight the exact tiles with the bonus as it is hard to see which one has the landmark bonus exactly for stuff like pholus ridge.

-Add in modding options to allow sea units to capture coastal bases.

-Allow gravships with air superiority to intercept just like needle jets (they have infinite fuel, shouldnt they be better at this?) and allow intercepts to happen as long as the intercepting target is within fuel range. Having formers get destroyed 3 tiles away from a base while your interceptors just sit there is really frustrating.

-Add in a modding option to prevent bases from being built if it will reduce the number of workable tiles in another base (unless you are at war, etc). Really annoying when submissive factions do this to you.

-Make the AI stop using non-algorithm probe teams if the target has the hunter seeker algorithm.

Also not sure if im reading the correct wiki, but it shows no changelogs for 3.1?
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: sisko on September 29, 2014, 06:21:26 AM
-Attempts to make random custom maps (using the customize map setting) on small planets show that many factions will start within 10 tiles of each other, while leaving huge areas of landmasses with no starting player. Huge problem as you cannot use small maps without starting location problems (peaceful factions tend to get killed off very early without being able to do anything).
If this is on thinker or transcend diffiuculty levels, than this is patch related. It was one of the ways the designers intended to make the game harder.


and.. welcome to the AC2 forum, Question!
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on September 29, 2014, 07:48:04 AM
Thanks, that was on librarian difficulty though, and it was also the AI starting next to each other and getting wiped out pretty quickly by the warmongers.

Some other issues i noticed :

-Planet busters (maybe missles as well) cannot be loaded on carriers, and since you cant build airbases in the water, you cant hit far away sea targets with missles due to limited range...

-Using planet busters did not get me kicked out of the planetary council and did not generate massive eco-damage. In alphax.txt, all i did was turn off base obliterating = simple atrocity, but didnt touch planet busters.

-Even if obliterating bases doesnt count as an atrocity, you still get the popup.

-The AI can see my deep pressure hull subs without any units near them (they had deep radar as well and would have seen enemy units). I was getting bombarded by a land based artillery unit and i was not within two tiles of a sensor array or base, yet he could somehow see and hit my subs.

-Any unit with psi armor cannot make artillery attacks even if they have a normal weapon equipped and can make normal attacks.

-Gravship formers count as land units and cannot lower terrain to sea level. Since they are air units they should be able to do it.

-Air units like gravships and locusts of chiron can capture bases, but not obliterate them for some reason.

-When defending against psi attacks, the game will prioritize air units as defenders, even if you have garrisons with resonance armor and a higher psi combat strength modifier.

-Not really a bug, but when attacking without preparation, the popup defaults to "attack anyway", the default option should not be to attack at a lower strength.

-When looking at the unit list in a tile (hotkey "a"), it does not show which units have already moved.

-If you activate a bunch of ground units on a loaded transport and then move one off the transport, the other ground units have switched back to sleep mode and you have to activate them AGAIN to unload them.

Suggestion :

-Add in a option so that secret projects which have been destroyed can be built again by all factions, very annoying when the AI builds something like the market exchange in a bad position and you cant do anything about it without using the scenario editor.

Not sure if bug, but i seem to recall that the data angels used to start with a free commlink frequency? Its not mentioned in their faction profile now, but i remember a faction used to have that and no faction profile seems to mention it.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on September 29, 2014, 03:05:42 PM
Does this patch include kyrub's AI fixes?


It includes the SMAX ones; it does not include his more comprehensive SMAC ones.

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The main problem was that once in a war, it seems that AIs build NOTHING but combat units/probe teams....200 turns into the game, both consciousness/morgan had size 4 HQs without even a children's creche (although i had given them highly advanced research techs ages ago).


Yes, the AI could use an overhaul.  My main concern is MP, so AI is waiting some, but once I finish my current list "allow SMAC to be played with SMAX, so that Kyrub is incentivized to work on it" and "work on AI myself, with information from Kyrub" are both possible things I might work on by request.

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-Datalinks mod claims that nanoreplicator/singulatory inducer reduces eco damage, yet i tested it ingame and noticed no ecodamage difference between using either one of those and a genejack factory...(same mineral production)


Strange, as I did.

Are you sure you didn't test by using the scenario editor without going back into the base screen afterward?  Facility changes in the scenario editor are not reflected in the ecodamage display until the next time you visit the base.

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-Sometimes you get multiple "urgent message from a faction leader" popups but when you click "ok", the popup just dissapears and you get another one. This happens a few times in a row until the faction leader stops trying to speak to you. You never actually enter conversation mode.


Sounds like a bug; if you can provide a savegame in which it happens, I can probably fix it.

Quote
-When offering to trade tech for tech, if the AI suggests another deal (like selling his tech for your energy), you cannot offer to trade again under the same turns. It seems you only get the option to trade under the same terms if the AI agrees to trade tech for tech, but not if he suggests another type of deal.


Not sure if that's a bug, but it could be changed eventually.

Quote
-After installing the patch, i noticed that the AI will NEVER surrender, even if you do not commit atrocities and are a human faction fighting another human faction. This is even if you reduce them to a single base and have a massive army surrounding it. Also even if they are on feeble might and you have unsurpassed might, they will repeatedly threaten to destroy you unless you give them techs/energy. This behaviour was not present pre-patch.


All intentional changes to the AI in my patch are from Kyrub; if this doesn't happen in Kyrub's version, then let me know and I should be able to fix it.  (If it does, then that was his decision; reverting it is a possibility for later, but not that soon.)

Quote
-Rescued faction leaders do nearly nothing even if you give them all your tech and tons of energy. The most ive seen them do is expand a bit but they do not appear to do anything except sit there, nor do they attempt to support your vendettas.


Does this happen in Kyrub's patch?  In Scient's or unpatched?

Quote
-Air units can only damage one ground unit at a time, whereas ground units cause collateral damage and will also kill all mindworms in the same tile if they manage to kill one.


This is an intentional part of the game, and is probably a good thing.  Allowing air collateral damage is a possibility for future patches, but not soon.

Quote
-Not sure if this is a bug, but the planet rating appears to not affect eco-damage eve though it is listed as doing so?


It most certainly does affect it; how did you test that it seemed not to?

Quote
-Bulk matter transitor is incorrectly listed as giving every base +2 minerals in the build facilities screen


Yes, this is a mistake; it will be fixed in patch 3.2.  Meanwhile, you can fix it yourself, as all the build facilities descriptions are found in alphax.txt.

Quote
-Governor set to auto manage specialists and nothing else will refuse to use any doctors, etc at max pop (e.g. 14 with a hab complex) even if doing so will cause the base to go into golden age with the +1 economy bonus.


Again, I'm not dealing with AI yet.

Quote
-The base screen does not show bonus energy rates if you have +1 economy from SE and am in a golden age (so you get +1 energy per square). The tiles still only show the standard energy rates.


I'm pretty sure it does; are you sure it's not just that you're expecting +1 energy per square at +1 ECONOMY when that requires +2 (+1 only gives +1 energy in the base square)?

Quote
-There is no indication of whether a base is currently in golden age in the base screen and if the bae is in pop boom (demo, planned, children's creche for +6 growth) the growth screen will not show the 1 turn to pop growth, it will still show incorrect numbers like 3 turns to grow, etc.


Neither of these seem that major, but eventually I might add golden age/riot indicators in the base screen and/or show the existence of pop booms.

Quote
-Attempts to make random custom maps (using the customize map setting) on small planets show that many factions will start within 10 tiles of each other, while leaving huge areas of landmasses with no starting player. Huge problem as you cannot use small maps without starting location problems (peaceful factions tend to get killed off very early without being able to do anything).


I'm not sure exactly how the landing site generator works, but it does have a random element that results in factions sometimes starting closer to each other than a perfectly even distribution; on a small map, that can be quite close indeed.  Small maps generally are meant when you want a high-conflict world anyway.

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-Probe teams seem very buggy. Incite drone riots seem to do nothing (i had the empath guild, but their drones never increased despite spamming the incite drone riote mission at the base for 5 turns).


It does something; details can be found here (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=3692.0).

Quote
Mind control costs can be absolutely insane (no polymorphic encryption, a resonance 6 rover seems to take 300+ energy to subvert).


It depends a lot on the distance to the target's HQ and on the unit's cost, and to some extent on the target's energy reserves; a resonance 6 rover (assuming you're playing without mods) costs 6 rows of minerals (60 minerals at 0 INDUSTRY), so for it to be that expensive to subvert would require either that it's reasonably close to the HQ or the owner has a lot of cash (in particular, to cost over 300 energy would require being within 6 squares of the HQ plus 1 for every 100 energy the owner has.)

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Sometimes an AI will have techs that i can steal but my probe teams will just download their world map instead (i can see they have techs i can steal from infiltrators).


Not sure what's up with that; do you have a savegame?

Quote
There is no "your success rate is blah blah blah" for genetic atrocities, it just seems to auto-succeed if they have no probe teams defending (but all other probe team missions can fail even with no defending probe teams).


This does appear to be true; do you think it's a bug?

Quote
Command center + bio enhancement center is enough to give you elite probe teams with no probe team modifiers in SE (or any secret projects that affect probe team morale), which is odd, shouldnt it be commando level at best?


I think probe teams start with 3 morale and get boosts for that; I'm planning to give more options regarding this soon.  (There are also certain techs that boost probe team morale.)

Quote
-Formers set to auto improve will not take into account forest bonuses from tree farms/hybrid forests so they will just spam farms instead of the much higher yield forests. Also one of the more common reasons for the AI not being able to grow their bases.


Also AI, meaning I'm not working on it yet.

Quote
-You cannot build any terrain imrpovements on the fossil ridge, which makes the +1 mineral bonus useless as you get a base with ocean tiles that have inferior output to one with improvements.


If you're not playing as  ;ulrik;, you wouldn't be able to build improvements there anyway without raising it; it becomes inferior to ocean shelf (if you've got the formers), but superior to normal ocean squares.

If you are playing as  ;ulrik;, then it's probably not worth it.

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-Damaged airplanes in a airbase do not appear to repair any damage at all unless you have the nano factory, even if they are not being damaged and ar eholding their position.


Interesting; apparently air units repair only in an actual base.  Which is not exactly ridiculous; an airbase would have a refueling station but not enough for real repairs.

Quote
-There does not appear to be any way to get to the faction datalinks screen (the one you get when you infiltrate another faction, and which shows their SE choices, etc) except through the commlink (which doesnt work if they refuse to talk to you) or unless you infiltrate them again.


I believe right-clicking on their name in the comlink menu does it.

Quote
-Add in a option for formers to auto-plant ONLY forests.


Not a high priority, especially once I add the "auto-help other formers" option, but I might do it eventually on request.

Quote
-Balance out farms, etc to make them useful in end game, especially condensers/echelon mirrors that are inferior to forest spamming after you get tree farms/hybrid forests. Maybe give them tech bonuses so that they scale and are a viable alternative to forest spamming?


Actually, I ran the numbers and while condensers+raise land+enrichers+echelon mirrors are expensive in terms of former time and cost some energy, they do produce a lot of resources.  (You do need to raise land to make it effective, though.)

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-Allow formers to increase rockiness, as right now leveling a tile is irreversible


Probably a good idea if I can make it work.

Quote
-Prevent landmarks from losing their tile bonuses when elevation changes, and highlight the exact tiles with the bonus as it is hard to see which one has the landmark bonus exactly for stuff like pholus ridge.


You can see the landmark noted in the tile information.  As for losing the bonuses when elevation changes, I think that's part of the game, but giving the option to change it is a possible future project on request.

Quote
-Add in modding options to allow sea units to capture coastal bases.


I think making that be the "amphibious" ability for sea units is probably the best way; it's not a high priority, but is a future possibility on request.

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-Allow gravships with air superiority to intercept just like needle jets (they have infinite fuel, shouldnt they be better at this?) and allow intercepts to happen as long as the intercepting target is within fuel range. Having formers get destroyed 3 tiles away from a base while your interceptors just sit there is really frustrating.


I think the idea behind it being fuel range is that they need to be close enough for the interceptor to scramble and get there in time before the battle is over.  Making the amount moddable is a possible future project, though.  Gravships with air superiority serving as interceptors is an idea, but not a high priority.

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-Add in a modding option to prevent bases from being built if it will reduce the number of workable tiles in another base (unless you are at war, etc). Really annoying when submissive factions do this to you.


This is essentially an AI issue, and as such will have to wait.  But making it an option to make it a vendetta-creating action (with all that implies) is a possible future project.

Quote
-Make the AI stop using non-algorithm probe teams if the target has the hunter seeker algorithm.


But it's so fun when they go poof!  (But yes, this is a possible future AI improvement.)

Quote
Also not sure if im reading the correct wiki, but it shows no changelogs for 3.1?


The changelogs simply state what's been changed between Kyrub's and the current version; sometimes I note where it was first introduced but sometimes I don't.  Changelogs for a given patch can be found in the readme that comes with that patch.

-Attempts to make random custom maps (using the customize map setting) on small planets show that many factions will start within 10 tiles of each other, while leaving huge areas of landmasses with no starting player. Huge problem as you cannot use small maps without starting location problems (peaceful factions tend to get killed off very early without being able to do anything).

If this is on thinker or transcend diffiuculty levels, than this is patch related. It was one of the ways the designers intended to make the game harder.


Which patch?  I know I didn't do anything related to it.

Some other issues i noticed :

-Planet busters (maybe missles as well) cannot be loaded on carriers, and since you cant build airbases in the water, you cant hit far away sea targets with missles due to limited range...


Actually, they can.  It's just that they don't automatically end their turn on a carrier like they do on a base, so you have to press spacebar to end their turn on the carrier in order to load them.

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-Using planet busters did not get me kicked out of the planetary council and did not generate massive eco-damage. In alphax.txt, all i did was turn off base obliterating = simple atrocity, but didnt touch planet busters.


Strange, it works for me.  Are you sure you hadn't repealed the U.N. charter?

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-Even if obliterating bases doesnt count as an atrocity, you still get the popup.


True.  Of course, a warning before destroying your own base is still a pretty good idea, so the problem is just the language...which a modder can change themselves via script.txt.

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-The AI can see my deep pressure hull subs without any units near them (they had deep radar as well and would have seen enemy units). I was getting bombarded by a land based artillery unit and i was not within two tiles of a sensor array or base, yet he could somehow see and hit my subs.


Yes, AI omniscience is an old problem, a known one, and a possible target for fixing (though figuring out how much the AI should know is still quite a task).

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-Any unit with psi armor cannot make artillery attacks even if they have a normal weapon equipped and can make normal attacks.


Yes, the lack of support for modding to enable psi artillery is a known issue, and on the list to be fixed.

Quote
-Gravship formers count as land units and cannot lower terrain to sea level. Since they are air units they should be able to do it.


I'll put it on the list to be fixed.

Quote
-Air units like gravships and locusts of chiron can capture bases, but not obliterate them for some reason.


I think this is intended, though I don't know why.

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-When defending against psi attacks, the game will prioritize air units as defenders, even if you have garrisons with resonance armor and a higher psi combat strength modifier.


That is because psi attackers get a base 3:2 ratio when attacking land units, but 1:1 when attacking air, so even with resonance the air unit has a higher chance of winning.

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-Not really a bug, but when attacking without preparation, the popup defaults to "attack anyway", the default option should not be to attack at a lower strength.


On the other hand, if you already tried to attack, then maybe you want to do it anyway just to do damage; I don't think it needs fixing.

Quote
-When looking at the unit list in a tile (hotkey "a"), it does not show which units have already moved.


It does for me; all of your units that have already spent all their moves are greyed out.

Quote
-If you activate a bunch of ground units on a loaded transport and then move one off the transport, the other ground units have switched back to sleep mode and you have to activate them AGAIN to unload them.


I think that's because it automatically switches to the transport.  However, if it's a sea transport and you're not unloading into a base, you can move the transport to a land square to select which unit to unload.

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-Add in a option so that secret projects which have been destroyed can be built again by all factions, very annoying when the AI builds something like the market exchange in a bad position and you cant do anything about it without using the scenario editor.


It's a possibility for the future...

Quote
Not sure if bug, but i seem to recall that the data angels used to start with a free commlink frequency? Its not mentioned in their faction profile now, but i remember a faction used to have that and no faction profile seems to mention it.


I do seem to remember something of that sort, but as you say it's not there now.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on September 29, 2014, 06:10:19 PM
Whats the deal with kyrub's AI fixes? I had a look at his downloads on this site, but its in the form of a .exe file so it looks like it would conflict with your modded .exe? I didnt install his stuff seperately because i thought it would conflict with yours. I think i did install scient's stuff before i did yours, but i cant remember as it was ages ago.

I think people would love more automation even in MP games though, if you could just set a fleet of formers to auto-plant forests instead of microing dozens of them, that would speed up games a LOT.

Tested nanoreplicator again, it did reduce eco-damage. I think what happened is that at a certain point, you hit a cap for clean minerals so anything after that has no effect. I think its after 200 minerals though.

I will save the savegame the next time i see the constant popups.

I just had a game where Lal did surrender to me, but he still threatened to obliterate me even though he was stuck with a size 1 base and i had tachyon marines knocking on his door. How do i get in touch with Kyrub and ask him about it? AIs usually wont surrender though, not sure if Kyrub did anything in that regard. Also its really annoying how they threaten you even though they are on feeble might and you are on unsurpassed.

Planet rating seems to be fine now that i tested it again, do you have any specific numbers on how it affects clean mineral production?

+1 per square does work in base window, my bad.

Tested the map generator on standard map several times. Yea the landing site thing is broken. I started 6 tiles away from Morgan and Morgan was less than 10 tiles away from Miriam...fun. Meanwhile there was this HUGE, 50+ tile expanse to the north and east of Miriam that had no factions. And usurper was in a corner of the continent with nobody near him for at least 20 tiles. Would not have been difficult to guess how the game was going to go...

From what i can tell, incite drones only creates one drone at best? That seems pretty useless.

I didnt realise stuff like distance to HQ affected probe team costs, thats not mentioned in the datalinks update...what else affects it? I tried to mind control a size 1 base with no facilities and just two cheap units guarding it (a 2-1-2 rover and a 1-2-1 garrison) and the game wanted to charge me 500+ credits. Probe teams (and data angels) dont seem very useful now. Not only do you have to have a decent military to guard the probe teams, the best they can do is genetic warfare atrocity which you cant use most of the time without pissing everyone off. Also at least two of the techs give +1 to probe team base morale, not to mention all the secret projects that boost probe team morale. Since probe teams get +4 from bio enhancement centers + command centers/etc, its quite easy to get elite probe teams....maybe make it so bio centers/command centers dont affect probe team morale?

Genetic warfare atrocities not having a fail rate seems to be a bug, but i dont know if thats intentional and i dont think anyone can tell unless they ask the original devs. But it does seem too powerful for it to auto-succeed. Halves base pop and drops all garrisons down to red hp.

I think allowing improvements to be built on fossil ridge would at least make it a decent choice for pirates. Right now its totally pointless.

I used the scenario editor to test echelon mirrors. Assuming elevation of 3000+ meters, each echelon mirror can produce a max of 5 energy. Meanwhile a basic tidal harness produces 4...given that tidal harnesses are so easy to spam, this is a pretty big problem. Also nutrients cease to be relevant once you get hybrid forests and hydrophonic labs, or the cloning vats. I do have to admit that i am surprised that even with Growth +5, it takes quite a while to grow to pop 16 with +20 nutrients.

The problem with natural landmarks losing their bonus on elevation change is that it is too easy to render something permanent ineffective. Even global warming will screw it up and a single tectonic missle can render your landmark ineffective. It just doesnt make sense for it to lose effectiveness just because the elevation changed to a different 1000m band.

Sea units not being able to capture coastal bases is a huge flaw and makes coastal attacks really tedious IMHO. Right now you only need a few AAA cruisers to defend a transport, the main annoyance is getting the transport loaded with marines. Theres no real reason to make a large navy given that they are useless as port garrisons (in port penalty) and are inferior to land based artillery.

Not sure what you mean about fuel range, but im having trouble providing effective interceptor screen for my bases. Its annoying formers three turns away can get nuked by a cheap and suicidal needlejet while my base full of interceptors sit there. I mean sure, next turn i can manually send a interceptor to kill the enemy jet while its still there, but its just really tedious. Civ 5 style intercepts would be much better (you just set planes to intercept and they intercept as long as something within their range gets bombed).

For base building, i meant an option like "May not build base if within X tiles of a base that you do not own".

Not sure what you meant about the changelog, but according to http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Yitzi%27s_patch (http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Yitzi%27s_patch) the latest version is 2.5 but you have 3.1e uploaded...

Tested missle loading on carriers again and they work now, not sure why they didnt before...

Will test planet busters again.

Is it possible to allow gravships/locusts to obliterate bases? Mostly a convenience thing.

As for the popup to attack at low readiness....its annoying because most of the time, you will get the popup by accident (moving elite units and they run into an enemy when most of their moves are gone). Its much rarer for the other situation (you have a huge combat strength difference and want to attack anyway).

Never noticed the color thing in the unit list...might have to go check it again.

With sea transport its mostly annoying when you are trying to unload a whole bunch of units into an enemy base. The game wont allow you to move the transport into the enemy base to unload them (unlike a land tile). Alternatively, maybe you could mod the game so that you do get the "disembark" popup when trying to move a transport into an enemy base? That would make things so much easier.

Another bug : If an enemy has air units mixed with land units in a tile, you are not allowed to attack the land units with your air units (unless they have air superiority). You just get a message that you need air superiority to attack.

Also the tidal harness bonus building (+1 energy from harnesses) does not work for supply crawlers. I assume aquafarms and subsea trunklines behave similarly.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 29, 2014, 06:36:06 PM
kyrub's a member here - try a PM, or post in his thread at the bottom of the page in Bug/Patch forum.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on September 29, 2014, 09:03:53 PM
Whats the deal with kyrub's AI fixes? I had a look at his downloads on this site, but its in the form of a .exe file so it looks like it would conflict with your modded .exe?


It would, except that I used his stuff as a basis for mine.  All the stuff from his SMAX patch (except for one bug that he introduced in the process of fixing the stockpile bug, and I fixed) is included in mine, and any AI behavior you find in mine that's not in scient's is almost certainly from his.  (You can test it by simply storing it in a different location.)

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I think people would love more automation even in MP games though, if you could just set a fleet of formers to auto-plant forests instead of microing dozens of them, that would speed up games a LOT.


Agreed; one of my plans is to have a "help other" action so that you only have to instruct each forest to be planted once.

Allowing you to disable automated formers building farms and solar is a possibility for the future, though not that soon.

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I will save the savegame the next time i see the constant popups.


Ok, thanks; what I need is a game from before the popups, i.e. I can load it and get the popups (plus I'll need instructions about how to get the popups).

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Planet rating seems to be fine now that i tested it again, do you have any specific numbers on how it affects clean mineral production?


PLANET rating does not affect clean minerals at all, but the ecodamage from anything past clean minerals is directly proportional to 3-PLANET, to a minimum of 1 and a maximum of 6.  (That 3, 1, and 6 can be changed in alphax.txt if you want.)

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Tested the map generator on standard map several times. Yea the landing site thing is broken. I started 6 tiles away from Morgan and Morgan was less than 10 tiles away from Miriam...fun. Meanwhile there was this HUGE, 50+ tile expanse to the north and east of Miriam that had no factions. And usurper was in a corner of the continent with nobody near him for at least 20 tiles. Would not have been difficult to guess how the game was going to go...


If it was an MP game, it's not easy to guess at all;  ;morgan;,  ;miriam;, and whatever you were playing as might have realized what would happen if they fought, and formed a truce (each expanding away from the others) until  ;marr; (a threat even without ideal starting conditions) was defeated.

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From what i can tell, incite drones only creates one drone at best? That seems pretty useless.


Well, if the opponent is a human player on transcend and you're not playing with the drone rules that allow non-pacifism superdrones, it is fairly weak.

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I didnt realise stuff like distance to HQ affected probe team costs, thats not mentioned in the datalinks update...what else affects it?


The base formula for a unit is (target faction's EC+800)X(cost of the target unit in rows)/(4+2Xdistance to target HQ), and for a base is (target faction's EC+1200)X(population+military units in the base, discounting defensive units)/(4+distance to HQ).  A children's creche, punishment sphere, or nerve stapling in a base halve the effective distance (if there's two, the distance is divided by 4, and if all three then by 8), and a genejack factory triples it.  Drone riots halve the cost to mind control a base, and a golden age doubles it.  Encryption makes a unit cost twice as much to subvert when not in a base, and count as two units in a base.  Finally, there's the effects of PROBE and  ;roze;'s special ability, but you know about that.

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I tried to mind control a size 1 base with no facilities and just two cheap units guarding it (a 2-1-2 rover and a 1-2-1 garrison) and the game wanted to charge me 500+ credits.


The rover increases the effective size to 2, so by our formula that means that either it was extremely close to the HQ or the owner was quite rich or it had a golden age.

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Probe teams (and data angels) dont seem very useful now. Not only do you have to have a decent military to guard the probe teams, the best they can do is genetic warfare atrocity which you cant use most of the time without pissing everyone off.


You can also steal tech...

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Also at least two of the techs give +1 to probe team base morale, not to mention all the secret projects that boost probe team morale. Since probe teams get +4 from bio enhancement centers + command centers/etc, its quite easy to get elite probe teams....maybe make it so bio centers/command centers dont affect probe team morale?


I would rather get rid of the command centers, cut the bioenhancement centers to 1, and remove the boosts from most of the techs (there's only two projects that boost probe team morale, and both are fairly late game), so that it's not so easy to get elite unless you're  ;roze;.

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Genetic warfare atrocities not having a fail rate seems to be a bug, but i dont know if thats intentional and i dont think anyone can tell unless they ask the original devs. But it does seem too powerful for it to auto-succeed. Halves base pop and drops all garrisons down to red hp.


Yeah, I think it's too powerful for auto-success to not be a bug.  Still, I'll take a poll, to determine not only if it should have a failure rate, but what that failure rate should be.

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I think allowing improvements to be built on fossil ridge would at least make it a decent choice for pirates. Right now its totally pointless.


It's a possible future project.

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I used the scenario editor to test echelon mirrors. Assuming elevation of 3000+ meters, each echelon mirror can produce a max of 5 energy.


Actually 4 without +2 ECONOMY.  But you mix in solars with the mirrors, and the mirrors increase the energy from the solars.  Exact patterns depend, but alternating rows of solars and mirrors gives an average of 7 per square (4 on the mirrors, but 10 on the solars.)

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Also nutrients cease to be relevant once you get hybrid forests and hydrophonic labs, or the cloning vats.


I favor fixing that by moving hydroponic labs to the late game (up there with hab complexes, which make nutrients very relevant again).  Cloning vats are situational, and there's nothing wrong with forests being situationally superior.

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The problem with natural landmarks losing their bonus on elevation change is that it is too easy to render something permanent ineffective. Even global warming will screw it up and a single tectonic missle can render your landmark ineffective. It just doesnt make sense for it to lose effectiveness just because the elevation changed to a different 1000m band.


Actually, it makes a fair amount of sense that elevation change could mess up a jungle or crater; the question is if it's good for gameplay.  And I think that it's not such a big deal, since landmarks themselves are not that important to the game.

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Sea units not being able to capture coastal bases is a huge flaw and makes coastal attacks really tedious IMHO.


I think it makes for a stronger game, by forcing land units as well as sea.  However, it shouldn't be too hard to enable amphibious ships being able to capture coastal bases, so I'm putting it fairly high on the list.

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Theres no real reason to make a large navy given that they are useless as port garrisons (in port penalty) and are inferior to land based artillery.


Unless you have sea bases (no in-port penalty there), or want to take out the enemy's transports because he has only a few ships to protect them (or to protect your own from the enemy's large navy.)

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Not sure what you mean about fuel range, but im having trouble providing effective interceptor screen for my bases. Its annoying formers three turns away can get nuked by a cheap and suicidal needlejet while my base full of interceptors sit there. I mean sure, next turn i can manually send a interceptor to kill the enemy jet while its still there, but its just really tedious. Civ 5 style intercepts would be much better (you just set planes to intercept and they intercept as long as something within their range gets bombed).


It can be annoying; there is sense behind it, but as I said making the distance of the interceptor screen moddable is a possible future project.  (And your interceptor can be just as cheap as the needlejet and cheaper than the formers, so the ability to counterattack would be enough to encourage a human player not to do it.)

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For base building, i meant an option like "May not build base if within X tiles of a base that you do not own".


What if you want to declare war?

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Not sure what you meant about the changelog, but according to http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Yitzi%27s_patch (http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Yitzi%27s_patch) the latest version is 2.5 but you have 3.1e uploaded...


Fixed.

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Is it possible to allow gravships/locusts to obliterate bases? Mostly a convenience thing.


It could be added as an option at some point, but won't be a high priority because it would change the game so much, and I think not for the better.

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As for the popup to attack at low readiness....its annoying because most of the time, you will get the popup by accident (moving elite units and they run into an enemy when most of their moves are gone). Its much rarer for the other situation (you have a huge combat strength difference and want to attack anyway).


Well, unless you have "confirm odds before attacking" on.  It could be made moddable, but unless other people want it too it won't be a high priority.

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With sea transport its mostly annoying when you are trying to unload a whole bunch of units into an enemy base. The game wont allow you to move the transport into the enemy base to unload them (unlike a land tile). Alternatively, maybe you could mod the game so that you do get the "disembark" popup when trying to move a transport into an enemy base? That would make things so much easier.


I'll put it on my list.

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Another bug : If an enemy has air units mixed with land units in a tile, you are not allowed to attack the land units with your air units (unless they have air superiority). You just get a message that you need air superiority to attack.


That gets tricky, though; if he wanted, he could designate the air unit as defender, but you can't attack the air unit, so effectively the air unit is the best unit to defend (since it prevents attack entirely) and so does, so you can't attack.

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Also the tidal harness bonus building (+1 energy from harnesses) does not work for supply crawlers. I assume aquafarms and subsea trunklines behave similarly.


Test again.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on September 30, 2014, 01:50:10 AM
Thanks, that makes things a lot clearer. Still impossible to get enough clean minerals limit with all the mineral boositng facilities though, but by then the game is already over so i guess its not a big deal.

Tried playing Cha Dawn and i was surprised by how little eco damage i was getting. I had to try multiple boreholes to get my first fungal pop, but im dissapointed that theres no difference between 2 and 3 planet rating (and you cant seem to capture anything late game). Speaking of which, Cha Dawn gets no interludes for some reason?

Can the game handle decimals in alphax.txt? E.g. 0.5 for the planet ratings?

While playing cha dawn i noticed a couple of things. I hadnt really used native units before as psi combat seems really random (the combat strengths are relatively similar unless you can stack a lot of modifiers). The mindworms were really powerful early game, but had the downside of eating up tons of minerals in garrisons since you cant give them clean reactors. They also dont seem to scale very well later in the game. Isles are too expensive/slow and sealurks come too late into the game to do much (you get locusts earlier for some reason).

Map generator : Is there any way to make the starting locations further away, like a minumum of tiles? How would you even mod something like that anyway? I dont see any values in alphax that control it (and im not even sure how to mod anything other than the stuff in alphax.txt)

Still not sure how incite drones work. You said it increases the counter by 10, up to 2.5 the base pop. So for example a pop 4 base would get +10 to the counter and 1 more drone?

Stealing tech doesnt do much against the AI after the early game though, not sure if it's kyrub's AI changes, but the AI just goes braindead and gets stuck in permanent combat unit mode once the first wars start. 200 turns into the game, no children's creche, just building infinite units and turtling. Stuff like conventional missles with 40+ turns to go. The AI wont even rebuild destroyed HQs. Against humans its more useful exept for the weird "new security interlock" thing on bases after the first tech stolen. Also whats the difference between normal mind control and total thoguht control?

Echelon mirrors : I thought echelons count as solar collectors too? If not, maybe they should....actually how do you even edit the improvement stats? I can find the part where condensers give +50% nutrients but not the one for echelons...

Forests being overpowered just takes variety away IMHO. It would be like if hovertanks were available shortly after rovers. Hydrophonic labs arent really an issue...i think its just the structure of the nutrient system in general. Each citizen needs at least two nutrients, but pre-tree farm, most tiles are only going to give you 1 food. That leaves you with very small bases. In my experience it seems the easiest way to grow bases is to put a condenser on a bonus nutrient square ASAP. Farms on rainy tiles sadly do not do much even with condensers. But this also means that you are looking at a pop 3 or 4 base at best if you settle somewhere with no nutrient bonuses or monoliths in the early game. The next best option is to try and rush gene splicing + foils and get kelp farms going.

I typically only build a handful of hydrophonic sats by the time i get them because my bases are mostly max pop anyway, and the ones that arent have more than enough nutrients from forests. The sats are mainly for new bases i make that dont have tree farms yet. On a related note, are nessus mining stations subject to the clean minerals limit? How do you even see your CM limit anyway (would be great if you could see it).

Naval units in sea bases have no in port penalty? I thought they did when attacked by aircraft, but i might be remembering wrongly.

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What if you want to declare war?

Whats the problem with declaring war? Just go ahead and do it, not being able to build a base within 3 tiles of an enemy base isnt going to affect your ability to declare war. Declare war, destroy the base, then build your base wherever you want.

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Well, unless you have "confirm odds before attacking" on.  It could be made moddable, but unless other people want it too it won't be a high priority.

Yea i tried turning that option on, but it got really annoying because i would get the popup even if the odds were wildly in my favor, like 100 to 1, or even if i was attacking probe teams that couldnt defend themselves. Is it possible to mod the game so that when you mouse over an enemy unit with one of your units selected, it will display the odds in a popup window? Kind of like what civ 5 does. Its especially annoying for psi combat since the combat strengths are so close and theres no other way to tell what the odds are other than the annoying popup spam.

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That gets tricky, though; if he wanted, he could designate the air unit as defender, but you can't attack the air unit, so effectively the air unit is the best unit to defend (since it prevents attack entirely) and so does, so you can't attack.

Yea, this was with the AI though and i dont think the AI uses designated defenders. I had destroyed a base with nerve gas and the left over units in the tile couldnt be attacked as the air units were blocking my needle jets...dont think thats intended.

Also tidal harnesses are fine, i was testing with a old save which apparently had +2 economy so that messed my values up.

I tested planet busters again. I nuked Gaians, and everyone declared war on me as usual. But i still managed to call the council and win via supreme leader vote and all the other factions except gaians agreed to serve me. Not sure if intended...

Some other possible issues :

If you have the planetary transist system and make a new base somewhere with insufficient food, the base will drop to 2 or 1 pop. But it wont grow back to 3 pop after you get enough food for the base (the grow check only happens when you build the secret project for existing bases apparently). You have to grow the base manually.

If you have a base within 3 tiles of a water tile, you can work that tile but cant build stuff like aquafarms.

Discovering the manifold nexus as progenitors will trigger the interlude which shows your faction in control of it, even if you are not actually in control of the nexus. I think it should only trigger once you have it within faction borders?

Caretakers were eradicated, but once i started to build the ascent to trascendence, i got a message saying that they were going to kill me because transcendence is forbidden. Usurpers was eradicated too but did not come back from the dead to call me. Not sure if the use of the scenario editor to eliminate them had anything to do with it.

Specialists do not count as talents for the purpose of golden ages, even if you have high enough psych to turn them into talents. This only becomes an issue once you get habitation domes and you have cities large enough to work all tiles, at which point they are forcibly converted into specialists. At about 30 pop it becomes impossible to get enough talents to have a golden age. Not really an issue as the game is basically over by this point.

Resource bonuses do not grant improved tile yields in fungus even after you research centauri psi or build the manifold harmonics. Not sure if intended. If you have a high enough planet rating you can get fungus that are better than any other tile in the game, but any bonus resources just do not affect it. You can build improvements in fungus after you get centuari psi, but you cant work them till you clear the fungus away (except for boreholes). Is there any point in building, say, a mine under fungus when you cant work it anyway?

If a friendly unit is in the same tile as an enemy unit, you cant attack the enemy unit in that tile (e.g. friendly air unit flying over, friendly unit stationed in enemy base, etc). Also if you have a truce and the AI decides to park their units in your territory to block you, they can choose not to take your call so you cant demand they remove their units from your territory. IIRC you do not get the option to refuse their call if you do the same to them. The problem is that you cant remove their units by any means except to declare war, but that means breaking the truce and your integrity will drop.

A rover can infinitely use a monolith to repair itself until the monolith dissapears. This is a rare scenario but a slow ground unit can keep attacking a rover, the rover disengages, and on his turn, repairs himself to full again, repeating an infinite cycle until the RNG makes the monolith dissapear. To prevent this from happening, i would suggest putting a limit on monoliths so they can only repair the same unit once in X turns.

-Disbanding a supply crawler in a base with shift+d only nets you half the minerals to a secret project, but you get the full amount of minerals if you move the crawler out of the base then back inside to get the popup asking if you want to assign the crawler to the secret project.

Suggetions (not sure whether these can be done) :

-Let players see what the morale of a unit will be before you build it (after all modifiers)

-Allow players to disable pods generating native life forms (the scenario editor only allows you to disable ALL life forms, but not pods generating them). Same goes for fungal blooms.

-Auto plant fungus option (low priority, mainly for late game players with manifold harmonics)

-Allow "duels to the death" for artillery, it should not take several turns to kill a single artillery unit....
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Buster's Uncle on September 30, 2014, 01:52:34 AM
I believe the Cult gets no interludes because Cha already had some sort of connection to Planet when he was found in the fungus, so the narrative doesn't work for him...
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on September 30, 2014, 07:45:19 AM
Thanks, that makes things a lot clearer. Still impossible to get enough clean minerals limit with all the mineral boositng facilities though, but by then the game is already over so i guess its not a big deal.

Well, you could always try changing the settings so that even with going over the clean minerals amount the worm problems aren't too bad unless you go way over while running Free Market.

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but im dissapointed that theres no difference between 2 and 3 planet rating

Changeable in alphax.txt.  Find the line where it says "Minimum PLANET multiplier", change it from 1 to 0, and at 3 PLANET there will be no ecodamage.

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(and you cant seem to capture anything late game).

Your ability to capture depends on how many of that unit you already have, so that may be the reason.  Though  ;cha; is more about building native life than capturing it;  ;deidre; is the one who really benefits most from captures, as it allows her to neglect military without much risk.

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Speaking of which, Cha Dawn gets no interludes for some reason?

BUncle's explanation is the right one, I think.

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Can the game handle decimals in alphax.txt? E.g. 0.5 for the planet ratings?

No.

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While playing cha dawn i noticed a couple of things. I hadnt really used native units before as psi combat seems really random (the combat strengths are relatively similar unless you can stack a lot of modifiers). The mindworms were really powerful early game, but had the downside of eating up tons of minerals in garrisons since you cant give them clean reactors.

Yeah, I'd keep a few in garrisons and most on the offensive (or, for a defensive stance, in fungus where they're support-free until they're needed.)

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They also dont seem to scale very well later in the game. Isles are too expensive/slow and sealurks come too late into the game to do much (you get locusts earlier for some reason).

Sealurks are good only where subs are good, i.e. not against the AI.  Isles are somewhat slow, but are fairly solid transports.

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Map generator : Is there any way to make the starting locations further away, like a minumum of tiles? How would you even mod something like that anyway?

I'd have to find the algorithm for finding start locations and add a restriction of distance from other factions.  It would be a significant task.

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and im not even sure how to mod anything other than the stuff in alphax.txt

Well, there are a few other moddable text files, but if you mean stuff like my mod, you'd have to learn assembly language.  It's a fun language if you're inclined to hardcore programming (and all your i/o work is via pre-existing functions), but if you're not good at math-type stuff it may not be for you.

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Still not sure how incite drones work. You said it increases the counter by 10, up to 2.5 the base pop. So for example a pop 4 base would get +10 to the counter and 1 more drone?

Exactly, unless the counter were already more than 0, in which case it would increase to 10.  And a pop 8 base would get +10 to the counter and 1 more drone unless the counter were at least 11, in which case it would increase to 20.

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Stealing tech doesnt do much against the AI after the early game though, not sure if it's kyrub's AI changes, but the AI just goes braindead and gets stuck in permanent combat unit mode once the first wars start. 200 turns into the game, no children's creche, just building infinite units and turtling. Stuff like conventional missles with 40+ turns to go. The AI wont even rebuild destroyed HQs.

To test if it's Kyrub's changes, you can see if the same happens with Scient's patch.

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Against humans its more useful exept for the weird "new security interlock" thing on bases after the first tech stolen.

Even so, I think that only lasts one turn.

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Also whats the difference between normal mind control and total thoguht control?

I think total thought control does not announce who did it (and while that's fairly obvious, does not provoke vendetta.)

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Echelon mirrors : I thought echelons count as solar collectors too? If not, maybe they should....actually how do you even edit the improvement stats? I can find the part where condensers give +50% nutrients but not the one for echelons...

Echelon mirrors count as solar collectors except that they are not improved by other echelon mirrors.  And while I am planning to, in the future, enable a constant energy boost to mirrors and solars (in addition to the altitude-based one), there isn't any way to edit them via text files at the moment.

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Forests being overpowered just takes variety away IMHO.

Agreed; the question is if they are overpowered, and if so how to fix it.

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Each citizen needs at least two nutrients, but pre-tree farm, most tiles are only going to give you 1 food.

Not true; farm+moist will give two, never mind rainy.

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In my experience it seems the easiest way to grow bases is to put a condenser on a bonus nutrient square ASAP.

Though modding condensers from +50% to +1 or +0 does reduce that substantially.

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Farms on rainy tiles sadly do not do much even with condensers.

They do with Gene Splicing.  Before that, farms on moist, or rainy as-is, is still good for 2 nutrients.

And Gene Splicing comes before tree farms, so there's never a point (until Hybrid Forests, and even then only if you get them before enrichers) where forests produce as much nutrients as farming.

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I typically only build a handful of hydrophonic sats by the time i get them because my bases are mostly max pop anyway, and the ones that arent have more than enough nutrients from forests.

If pop boom is made much harder (another goal I have), you can always use more nutrients, for faster growth (until lategame, where there's no max population and more nutrients=more specialists).

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On a related note, are nessus mining stations subject to the clean minerals limit?

Nessus mining stations do not contribute to ecodamage, but the multiplier from facilities as applied to their production does.  (So if you have 2 mining stations and a genejack factory, that's +3 minerals, but only the 1 from the factory counts for ecodamage.)

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How do you even see your CM limit anyway (would be great if you could see it).

No way except to experiment, or calculate it.  I'm not a fan of having a clean mineral limit anyway, so making it visible is not going to be a high priority.

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Naval units in sea bases have no in port penalty? I thought they did when attacked by aircraft, but i might be remembering wrongly.

You are correct.  Which is sort of silly; I've put up a poll to determine whether it's a bug.

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Whats the problem with declaring war? Just go ahead and do it, not being able to build a base within 3 tiles of an enemy base isnt going to affect your ability to declare war. Declare war, destroy the base, then build your base wherever you want.

Or build the base without destroying the base (as you said, the limit wouldn't apply when there's war)...

Still, that suggests the best approach would be to make it so that the AI automatically declares war before building the base (and if they wouldn't declare war, they won't build the base.)

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Yea i tried turning that option on, but it got really annoying because i would get the popup even if the odds were wildly in my favor, like 100 to 1, or even if i was attacking probe teams that couldnt defend themselves. Is it possible to mod the game so that when you mouse over an enemy unit with one of your units selected, it will display the odds in a popup window? Kind of like what civ 5 does.

It would be doable, I think, but isn't such a high priority, as I feel those popups aren't really that bad.  (Of course, if other people also find them really annoying, then that'll change things.)

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Yea, this was with the AI though and i dont think the AI uses designated defenders.

But it does use the best defenders, and an unattackable unit is the best defender there is.

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I tested planet busters again. I nuked Gaians, and everyone declared war on me as usual. But i still managed to call the council and win via supreme leader vote and all the other factions except gaians agreed to serve me. Not sure if intended...

Yeah, it takes a lot for other factions to contest a diplomatic victory.

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If you have the planetary transist system and make a new base somewhere with insufficient food, the base will drop to 2 or 1 pop. But it wont grow back to 3 pop after you get enough food for the base (the grow check only happens when you build the secret project for existing bases apparently). You have to grow the base manually.

That doesn't seem such an issue to me; while having the planetary transit system give automatic pop boom to bases of size 1 or 2 is a possibility, it's not such high priority.

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If you have a base within 3 tiles of a water tile, you can work that tile but cant build stuff like aquafarms.

Also, an interesting mod but not such an important one.

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Discovering the manifold nexus as progenitors will trigger the interlude which shows your faction in control of it, even if you are not actually in control of the nexus. I think it should only trigger once you have it within faction borders?

Or change the text of the interlude...

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Caretakers were eradicated, but once i started to build the ascent to trascendence, i got a message saying that they were going to kill me because transcendence is forbidden. Usurpers was eradicated too but did not come back from the dead to call me. Not sure if the use of the scenario editor to eliminate them had anything to do with it.

It probably did.

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Specialists do not count as talents for the purpose of golden ages, even if you have high enough psych to turn them into talents. This only becomes an issue once you get habitation domes and you have cities large enough to work all tiles, at which point they are forcibly converted into specialists. At about 30 pop it becomes impossible to get enough talents to have a golden age. Not really an issue as the game is basically over by this point.

It was enough of an issue that I made a modding option to deal with it; drone rule number 8 fixes this as well as a number of related issues.

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Resource bonuses do not grant improved tile yields in fungus even after you research centauri psi or build the manifold harmonics. Not sure if intended.

Intended or not, this is on my list to fix (as an option), though I'm pinning it to producing at least one of that resource rather than Centauri Psi.

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You can build improvements in fungus after you get centuari psi, but you cant work them till you clear the fungus away (except for boreholes). Is there any point in building, say, a mine under fungus when you cant work it anyway?

Hmm...should the improvement replace the fungus, or apply after it?  The latter would be extremely powerful.

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If a friendly unit is in the same tile as an enemy unit, you cant attack the enemy unit in that tile (e.g. friendly air unit flying over, friendly unit stationed in enemy base, etc).

Barring scenario editor stuff or some really wonky cases involving pacts and units in neutral territory, this shouldn't happen.

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Also if you have a truce and the AI decides to park their units in your territory to block you, they can choose not to take your call so you cant demand they remove their units from your territory. IIRC you do not get the option to refuse their call if you do the same to them. The problem is that you cant remove their units by any means except to declare war, but that means breaking the truce and your integrity will drop.

Demand Withdrawal is available via right-click on the comm menu.

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A rover can infinitely use a monolith to repair itself until the monolith dissapears. This is a rare scenario but a slow ground unit can keep attacking a rover, the rover disengages, and on his turn, repairs himself to full again, repeating an infinite cycle until the RNG makes the monolith dissapear. To prevent this from happening, i would suggest putting a limit on monoliths so they can only repair the same unit once in X turns.

Actually, it won't happen infinitely, as once there's a second slow ground unit to help, it can move in to occupy the monolith after the rover disengages.  Your proposal would be fairly difficult if it applies across all monoliths, and far worse if each monolith has its own counter.

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-Disbanding a supply crawler in a base with shift+d only nets you half the minerals to a secret project, but you get the full amount of minerals if you move the crawler out of the base then back inside to get the popup asking if you want to assign the crawler to the secret project.

Does spacebar also raise that menu?  Because that would solve the problem easily.

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-Let players see what the morale of a unit will be before you build it (after all modifiers)

Definitely doable; how would you suggest it be shown?

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-Allow players to disable pods generating native life forms (the scenario editor only allows you to disable ALL life forms, but not pods generating them). Same goes for fungal blooms.

Fungal blooms from ecodamage can be disabled by changing the ecodamage settings to negate all ecodamage (easiest way is to set maximum and minimum PLANET multiplier to 0); disabling pods producing native life forms would be doable (with alphax to control it) but not that easy and not high priority.

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-Auto plant fungus option (low priority, mainly for late game players with manifold harmonics)

Automation is essentially AI, which will wait...but if I do AI work, it'll almost certainly be on the list.

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-Allow "duels to the death" for artillery, it should not take several turns to kill a single artillery unit....

I thought that when one artillery unit attacks another, it is a duel to the death.  If not...I'm planning a major combat-modding set of options at some point, and something like what you describe will almost certainly be in there.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on September 30, 2014, 06:07:43 PM
Hmm i just noticed a huge bug. For some reason i cannot take probe actions against enemy units. When i try to move a probe team into the enemy tile, nothing happens and i get no error message. That might explain why the AI never tries to use probe teams on my units, its because they cant either...see save game. I even tried giving myself 999 energy to see if it was a energy reserves issue, but that didnt help.

Also another bug with probe teams is that when you try to move a land probe team into a sea base adjacent to land, you get a message saying that they need amphibious pods to attack the base, but you cant give probe teams amphibious pods....i was stuck on a continent with no coastal bases, surrounded by pirate coastal bases, so i couldnt build any naval probe teams nor could i give my land probe teams amphibious pods to do anything, so i had to start over.

Also probe teams can take clean reactors even though they dont cost any minerals to support, that should probably be removed to avoid confusing newbies. The security interlock thing lasts forever by the way, not just one turn. If you steal tech from one base, you will always get a higher failure rate from that base for the rest of the game.

Native units : I think the biggest problem with these is that while they are decent in the early game, they simply dont scale unlike normal units. You get up to 40 hp with singularity reactors while native units remain the same forever so theres no reason to use them once you get fusion reactors. The entire stack of mindworms will also die if one unit dies, and it is VERY easy to kill a single mind worm...just use a resonance rover/hovertank with empath song.

Echelon mirrors : I think it might be better to make them a uber solar collector instead, like what condensors/boreholes do. You put a condensor down on a nutrient bonus square, voila, 1 tile providing 7 food with a farm. You get 8 minerals from a borehole. But you put a echelon mirror down on a energy tile and its no better than a solar collector, and spamming multiple echelon mirrors is really impractical, unlike building just one condensor/borehole.

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Hmm...should the improvement replace the fungus, or apply after it?  The latter would be extremely powerful.

Probably replace, forests do that currently but the other improvements dont for some reason.

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Barring scenario editor stuff or some really wonky cases involving pacts and units in neutral territory, this shouldn't happen.

The AI doesnt do it often but i think in MP you could do something like this :

A is pact with B. You are at war with B but not A. A has his units stack with B's units. You cant attack B's units/bases while his units are free to attack yours.

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Does spacebar also raise that menu?  Because that would solve the problem easily.

Nope, space bar just skips the crawler's turn. Its also interesting that if you have crawlers on hold in a base that start a secret project, they will wake up and ask you for orders but not give you the popup menu to ask if you want to assign them to the secret project. With artifacts, they will wake up and when you set them to hold again, you get the popup menu asking if you want to link it to the network node/assign to the secret project. This doesnt happen with crawlers for some reason.

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Definitely doable; how would you suggest it be shown?

Not sure what can be done UI wise...is there any space to put the text in the unit boxes, in the build screen?

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Fungal blooms from ecodamage can be disabled by changing the ecodamage settings to negate all ecodamage (easiest way is to set maximum and minimum PLANET multiplier to 0); disabling pods producing native life forms would be doable (with alphax to control it) but not that easy and not high priority.

I meant the unity pods, its really annoying when most of the pods are just native lifeforms that kill the unit that opened the pod, and the scenario editor doesnt have any settings to prevent pods from spawning lifeforms or fungal blooms.

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I thought that when one artillery unit attacks another, it is a duel to the death.  If not...I'm planning a major combat-modding set of options at some point, and something like what you describe will almost certainly be in there.

Nope, artillery does minor damage to each other then they stop shooting. It generally takes 3+ turns to kill an artillery unit 1v1 unless there is a huge tech gap.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on September 30, 2014, 07:09:05 PM
Hmm i just noticed a huge bug. For some reason i cannot take probe actions against enemy units. When i try to move a probe team into the enemy tile, nothing happens and i get no error message. That might explain why the AI never tries to use probe teams on my units, its because they cant either...see save game. I even tried giving myself 999 energy to see if it was a energy reserves issue, but that didnt help.

That would be because there are two units in that square; a probe team cannot subvert two units at a time, unless they are in a base.  (This is another thing I plan to make mod-changeable.)

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Also another bug with probe teams is that when you try to move a land probe team into a sea base adjacent to land, you get a message saying that they need amphibious pods to attack the base, but you cant give probe teams amphibious pods....i was stuck on a continent with no coastal bases, surrounded by pirate coastal bases, so i couldnt build any naval probe teams nor could i give my land probe teams amphibious pods to do anything, so i had to start over.

You could always take out the units with air and then use amphibious military units to capture the base...

Also, if you want to allow probe teams with amphibious pods, you can allow amphibious pods for noncombat units in alphax.txt (of course, that means you can make colony pods or crawlers with amphibious pods, which won't do much good, so there's not much point in making them.)

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Also probe teams can take clean reactors even though they dont cost any minerals to support, that should probably be removed to avoid confusing newbies.

Can be done in alphax.txt.

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The security interlock thing lasts forever by the way, not just one turn. If you steal tech from one base, you will always get a higher failure rate from that base for the rest of the game.

You appear to be correct.  My mistake.  Ok, so I'll put on my list to give an option to control how long it lasts.  (This will require a substantial amount of work, but the hard part doubles as allowing you to increase the base cap, so it will be a good project for 4.1.  I'll probably increase the unit cap too at that point.)

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Native units : I think the biggest problem with these is that while they are decent in the early game, they simply dont scale unlike normal units. You get up to 40 hp with singularity reactors while native units remain the same forever so theres no reason to use them once you get fusion reactors.

I believe that psi combat ignores reactors.

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The entire stack of mindworms will also die if one unit dies, and it is VERY easy to kill a single mind worm...just use a resonance rover/hovertank with empath song.

This is only true of native-owned units; faction-owned worms follow the same rules for collateral damage as any other unit.

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Echelon mirrors : I think it might be better to make them a uber solar collector instead, like what condensors/boreholes do. You put a condensor down on a nutrient bonus square, voila, 1 tile providing 7 food with a farm. You get 8 minerals from a borehole. But you put a echelon mirror down on a energy tile and its no better than a solar collector, and spamming multiple echelon mirrors is really impractical, unlike building just one condensor/borehole.

It sort of is, except that instead of giving energy itself it gives energy to nearby solar panels.  If you have a bunch of solar panels, changing one of them to a mirror is worth +8 energy.  Of course, if you get more of them, they're weaker, but a mirror at max elevation surrounded by solar is essentially worth 12 energy.

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Probably replace, forests do that currently but the other improvements dont for some reason.

That could probably be fixed, and seeing as the current system seems to be a bug, probably should be.  I'll put it on the list.

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A is pact with B. You are at war with B but not A. A has his units stack with B's units. You cant attack B's units/bases while his units are free to attack yours.

Yes, if it's not yours that's different.  However, in such a case you could simply tell A to get out of there or you'll declare war and attack anyway.

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Does spacebar also raise that menu?  Because that would solve the problem easily.

Nope, space bar just skips the crawler's turn. Its also interesting that if you have crawlers on hold in a base that start a secret project, they will wake up and ask you for orders but not give you the popup menu to ask if you want to assign them to the secret project. With artifacts, they will wake up and when you set them to hold again, you get the popup menu asking if you want to link it to the network node/assign to the secret project. This doesnt happen with crawlers for some reason.

Hmm...Probably would be good to change that.

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Definitely doable; how would you suggest it be shown?

Not sure what can be done UI wise...is there any space to put the text in the unit boxes, in the build screen?

You mean, instead of showing "Scout Patrol" it would show "Green Scout Patrol"?  I'm pretty sure that could be done fairly easily.  In terms of options to show it, I think maybe I'll just add it under the existing "enhanced information" feature.

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I meant the unity pods, its really annoying when most of the pods are just native lifeforms that kill the unit that opened the pod, and the scenario editor doesnt have any settings to prevent pods from spawning lifeforms or fungal blooms.

Yeah, that wouldn't be so easy and isn't a very high priority, but is a possible future project on request.

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Nope, artillery does minor damage to each other then they stop shooting. It generally takes 3+ turns to kill an artillery unit 1v1 unless there is a huge tech gap.

Ok, then it'll be part of the combat rework.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Lord Avalon on September 30, 2014, 09:01:37 PM
Also, if you want to allow probe teams with amphibious pods, you can allow amphibious pods for noncombat units in alphax.txt (of course, that means you can make colony pods or crawlers with amphibious pods, which won't do much good, so there's not much point in making them.)

As I play SP mostly on huge maps, I find amphibious colony pods and crawlers can be useful, if you settle a sea base next to a continent, which you find is uninhabited. Of course if you have enough (clean) transports, you could just have one hold in the base, or if you can afford it, rush build one.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on September 30, 2014, 10:45:06 PM
Also, if you want to allow probe teams with amphibious pods, you can allow amphibious pods for noncombat units in alphax.txt (of course, that means you can make colony pods or crawlers with amphibious pods, which won't do much good, so there's not much point in making them.)

As I play SP mostly on huge maps, I find amphibious colony pods and crawlers can be useful, if you settle a sea base next to a continent, which you find is uninhabited. Of course if you have enough (clean) transports, you could just have one hold in the base, or if you can afford it, rush build one.

True; I forgot that amphibious units can use from a sea base to land without a transport.

Okay, then it definitely makes sense to open up the amphibious ability to all land units, whether combat, noncombat, or terraformer.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Nexii on October 01, 2014, 04:14:11 AM
Re: Terraforming.  Farm/solar/echelon is competitive if you reduce the former times somewhat of condensor and echelon.  Keep in mind you can put echelons outside the base radius.  I also have had raising/lowering disabled and farm/solar is still good.  Other good options to balance out forests are to make Hybrid Forest later game/tech; make the resources different, or more former turns to plant.  Lately I've been trying Forests out at 1/3/0, and Boreholes at 0/0/12.  Also to consider is the ecodamage of minerals by Forest against energy strategy.

I do agree with the encroaching point though.  It should be a vendetta declare.  Similarly I think sea borders of land bases should extend out as much as land borders (~8 tiles by default).  It's a bit silly to get P-drones for sea units that are still in the base radius.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on October 01, 2014, 05:40:09 AM
Similarly I think sea borders of land bases should extend out as much as land borders (~8 tiles by default).  It's a bit silly to get P-drones for sea units that are still in the base radius.

This makes sense.  I've put adding in the other three possibilities for borders (sea borders of land bases, and land and sea borders of sea bases) onto my list.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on October 01, 2014, 03:00:36 PM
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That would be because there are two units in that square; a probe team cannot subvert two units at a time, unless they are in a base.  (This is another thing I plan to make mod-changeable.)

Yea, its a bit weird that all you need to do to make your units immune to probe teams is to stack more than 1 unit in a tile.

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You could always take out the units with air and then use amphibious military units to capture the base...

I was playing miriam so i couldnt catch up in tech and my only hope was to steal techs with probes, which they couldnt do as the bases were all coastal.

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It sort of is, except that instead of giving energy itself it gives energy to nearby solar panels.  If you have a bunch of solar panels, changing one of them to a mirror is worth +8 energy.  Of course, if you get more of them, they're weaker, but a mirror at max elevation surrounded by solar is essentially worth 12 energy.

Why not make ehcelon mirrors give a +3 bonus to the energy output of a square though? A condensor + farm gives +3 nutrients to a square with a nutrient bonus and also increases adjacent rainfall by one step. Its not common to have high elevations that make building solar panels worthwhile. Making it function more like a condensor would make it much more useful in normal play where you have time/resource constraints.

I think forests are okay at this point, its just that farms/solar collectors/mines need to scale more with tech. Making them give more nutrients/energy/minerals when you get higher level techs would be a good step (like what happens with mining platforms). Also making mines not reduce nutrients in the square will also make farm + mines much more attractive. A rolling + moist tile would give you 2 nutrients and 2 minerals, which is better than a unimproved forest.

I also find it weird that drill to aquifer doesnt allow you to direct where the river goes. Even ancient civilizations on earth knew how to dig canals for waterflow, but its 2100+ and you can launch satellites but not dig canals to make additional river tiles? Drill to aquifier isnt very useful when it takes so many turns to do and you have no idea where the resulting river is going to go to.

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You mean, instead of showing "Scout Patrol" it would show "Green Scout Patrol"?  I'm pretty sure that could be done fairly easily.  In terms of options to show it, I think maybe I'll just add it under the existing "enhanced information" feature.

Yea something like that, or somewhere else within the box, not sure what would look best at this point though.

Some more issues :

In test.sav, you can see that i have two gatling infantries that i subverted from Lal. However the name is slightly different from the one in the workshop which is Gatling Squad. Also when i go to upgrade them via the workshop, one of them cant be upgraded. Apparently thats because one of them is an obsolete model and obsolete models that are subverted dont appear in your workshop. Whats also annoying is that when you upgrade units on the board, they dont get the benefits of the high morale ability but they do if you upgrade them through the workshop.

Another annoying thing is how you cant retire basic designs like the basic former so it keeps taking up space in your workshop. This wouldnt be so bad if the workshop didnt reset the selected unit to the latest one everytime you upgraded a unit (so if you upgrade an obsolete unit and you have 24 unit designs in total, it resets to #24 and if you want to upgrade any more obsolete deisgns, you have to scroll all the way back again). I tried disabling the basic unit designs, but that just made the game give prototype costs to stuff like formers...

-In test2.sav, it costs 1192 credits to mind control Hallowed Ground, a size 8 base with only a single transport foil and 2 buildings. This seems way too high considering that you may as well just conquer the building manually and save 1k+ credits...its not lcose to the believers HQ either, nor is it in golden age.

I also noticed that incite drones does not correctly show the newly created drones in the base screen, even if it causes a drone riot, you will still see no drones or no extra drones in the base screen. They dont appear to show up when looking at the base's psych screen either.

-Air units blocking tiles is a huge problem and really exploitable in MP. All you need is one air unit like a needle jet and it completely blocks the tile, no movement, bombardment or attacking possible except for SAM units. Any units in that tile can attack out of it with impunity. You can even do this with gravship and they never run out of fuel so you can block that tile forever for all non-SAM units. Im surprised, isnt this used in MP often?

-Clicking "Help" when selecting a native life form in the build screen will send you to the workshop which is useless, since native units dont appear there. It should send you to the datalinks section for that native lifeform.

-In the datalinks, when viewing a tech that grants a new society model (e.g. police state), there is no hyperlink to the police state entry (this applies for all society models, which are all missing hyperlinks for some reason).

-Roads only improve mine outputs if the square is rocky, if the square is flat or rolling, roads do nothing to the mines in the square (at least when combined with a farm). Not sure if bug?

-There seems to be some kind of limit to how many talents/drones you can affect with psych. Even if you have the psych slider at 100% and have 200+ total psych at a base, you will still have left over drones (not pacificsm ones) and not all workers can be turned into talents. Not sure if bug, but datalinks make no mention of a limit...

Suggestion :

-Make +PROBE modifiers in SE affect probe team combat just like how planet affects native life form combat, and also have it reduce your own probe team costs.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on October 01, 2014, 04:47:59 PM

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You could always take out the units with air and then use amphibious military units to capture the base...

I was playing miriam so i couldnt catch up in tech and my only hope was to steal techs with probes, which they couldnt do as the bases were all coastal.

Ah yeah, that would be a problem.

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Why not make ehcelon mirrors give a +3 bonus to the energy output of a square though? A condensor + farm gives +3 nutrients to a square with a nutrient bonus and also increases adjacent rainfall by one step. Its not common to have high elevations that make building solar panels worthwhile. Making it function more like a condensor would make it much more useful in normal play where you have time/resource constraints.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the way condensers work in the first place.  But having mirrors give a bonus in their square too (besides counting as a solar panel) might be a future option by request.

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I think forests are okay at this point, its just that farms/solar collectors/mines need to scale more with tech. Making them give more nutrients/energy/minerals when you get higher level techs would be a good step (like what happens with mining platforms).

That already exists somewhat with mirrors, condensers, raise land, and enrichers, and for mines I have plans to have maglevs give a boost to mines (totally stolen from earlier Civ games).  Not sure if it needs to be stronger.

Let's put it this way: How many former-turns per extra resource do you think are needed to make the terraforming types balanced?

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Also making mines not reduce nutrients in the square will also make farm + mines much more attractive. A rolling + moist tile would give you 2 nutrients and 2 minerals, which is better than a unimproved forest.

Agreed that it would be a good idea (and it's even more important for sea).  Fortunately, that can be done through alphax, with no effort needed on my part.

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I also find it weird that drill to aquifer doesnt allow you to direct where the river goes. Even ancient civilizations on earth knew how to dig canals for waterflow, but its 2100+ and you can launch satellites but not dig canals to make additional river tiles? Drill to aquifier isnt very useful when it takes so many turns to do and you have no idea where the resulting river is going to go to.

I think there is probably some rule; maybe each square goes to the lowest-elevation square next to it?

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Yea something like that, or somewhere else within the box, not sure what would look best at this point though.

If you can figure out what would work best, I can probably do it.

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In test.sav, you can see that i have two gatling infantries that i subverted from Lal. However the name is slightly different from the one in the workshop which is Gatling Squad. Also when i go to upgrade them via the workshop, one of them cant be upgraded. Apparently thats because one of them is an obsolete model and obsolete models that are subverted dont appear in your workshop. Whats also annoying is that when you upgrade units on the board, they dont get the benefits of the high morale ability but they do if you upgrade them through the workshop.

When I loaded the game, it was the same name, and could be upgraded...

As for types of upgrading, there are a few differences between upgrading "on the board" as opposed to through the workshop.

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Another annoying thing is how you cant retire basic designs like the basic former so it keeps taking up space in your workshop. This wouldnt be so bad if the workshop didnt reset the selected unit to the latest one everytime you upgraded a unit (so if you upgrade an obsolete unit and you have 24 unit designs in total, it resets to #24 and if you want to upgrade any more obsolete deisgns, you have to scroll all the way back again). I tried disabling the basic unit designs, but that just made the game give prototype costs to stuff like formers...

The basic designs (created in alphax.txt) like the basic former do not take up slots in your workshop, and are always at the beginning.

Resetting to the latest one does seem inconvenient; it's not a top priority to fix (since it isn't that bad most of the time, and doesn't affect gameplay), but later I could probably fix it on request.

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-In test2.sav, it costs 1192 credits to mind control Hallowed Ground, a size 8 base with only a single transport foil and 2 buildings. This seems way too high considering that you may as well just conquer the building manually and save 1k+ credits...its not lcose to the believers HQ either, nor is it in golden age.

Firstly, note that they have a native +1 PROBE, which adds 50% to the cost, so it's really like 795.

Secondly, remember that the cost to mind control depends a lot on the population of the base; you're only paying a bit under 100 per point of population before the PROBE increase.

However, I did find something not in the formula I'd found on the internet: The effective population is also increased by 1 for each past mind control and 1 for each past 4 subversions (I'm adding that to the other post), so there's actually 10 effective population, so 79.5 cost per effective population.

Finally, there is some other base property (I'm not sure what) that can increase the cost by 50% or 100%; in this case it's 50%, so it's only 53 cost per effective population.

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I also noticed that incite drones does not correctly show the newly created drones in the base screen, even if it causes a drone riot, you will still see no drones or no extra drones in the base screen. They dont appear to show up when looking at the base's psych screen either.

Can I have a savegame that shows this?  I have an idea of what might be going on, but it seems a bit unlikely so I'd rather check the savegame.

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-Air units blocking tiles is a huge problem and really exploitable in MP. All you need is one air unit like a needle jet and it completely blocks the tile, no movement, bombardment or attacking possible except for SAM units. Any units in that tile can attack out of it with impunity. You can even do this with gravship and they never run out of fuel so you can block that tile forever for all non-SAM units. Im surprised, isnt this used in MP often?

Fairly often, but you can also "block" a tile with defensive units and then you need strong attackers to catch it.  The only real problem (although I favor being able to hit gravships without SAM anyway) is that SAM is available too late in comparison to air power (they're together) so the owner might not have the tech.  If SAM is moved to synthetic fossil fuels, and air power requires advanced military algorithms, that should fix the problem.

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-Clicking "Help" when selecting a native life form in the build screen will send you to the workshop which is useless, since native units dont appear there. It should send you to the datalinks section for that native lifeform.

True, though fairly minor.  Not going to be a major priority.

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-In the datalinks, when viewing a tech that grants a new society model (e.g. police state), there is no hyperlink to the police state entry (this applies for all society models, which are all missing hyperlinks for some reason).

True, though fairly minor.  Not going to be a major priority.

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-Roads only improve mine outputs if the square is rocky, if the square is flat or rolling, roads do nothing to the mines in the square (at least when combined with a farm). Not sure if bug?

It is not a bug; a mine is worth only 1 in flat or rolling, and the first does not need a road.  (The mine is worth 2 in rocky, plus allowing the rocky itself to produce 2 instead of 1, so that's an increase of 2 that does not need a road and a third that does.)

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-There seems to be some kind of limit to how many talents/drones you can affect with psych. Even if you have the psych slider at 100% and have 200+ total psych at a base, you will still have left over drones (not pacificsm ones) and not all workers can be turned into talents. Not sure if bug, but datalinks make no mention of a limit...

Savegame, please?

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Suggestion :

-Make +PROBE modifiers in SE affect probe team combat just like how planet affects native life form combat, and also have it reduce your own probe team costs.

They already give a morale boost; with the probe-team-improving techs and various facilities weakened substantially, that morale boost will be quite significant for combat and success chance.  Affecting your own probe team costs is an interesting idea, but not, I think, a high priority.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on October 02, 2014, 01:40:12 PM
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Let's put it this way: How many former-turns per extra resource do you think are needed to make the terraforming types balanced?

I dont think its former turns, but making farms, etc scale with techs like forests do.

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I think there is probably some rule; maybe each square goes to the lowest-elevation square next to it?

I just find it weird that you cant just make a river flow to every square when you can launch satellites...canals are not exactly high leel tech. I think the drill to aquifer option is really underulitized the way its setup.

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If you can figure out what would work best, I can probably do it.

With some unit names it might become too long if its something like Green Tachyon AAA destroyer. How about including it next to the numbers? The ones that are like 1-1-1-1? Something like 1-1-1-1-Green?

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When I loaded the game, it was the same name, and could be upgraded...

As for types of upgrading, there are a few differences between upgrading "on the board" as opposed to through the workshop.

Strange, when i try to upgrade them from the workshop, i was told that there was only one unit that could be upgraded. To upgrade both, i had to upgrade one of them first at a cost of 20 credits, then upgrade both. Whats the point of making two different types of upgrading anyway? Its really annoying not having high morale upgrades take effect unless you upgrade through the workshop.

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The basic designs (created in alphax.txt) like the basic former do not take up slots in your workshop, and are always at the beginning.

Yea but they also cant be retired for some reason?

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Firstly, note that they have a native +1 PROBE, which adds 50% to the cost, so it's really like 795.

Secondly, remember that the cost to mind control depends a lot on the population of the base; you're only paying a bit under 100 per point of population before the PROBE increase.

However, I did find something not in the formula I'd found on the internet: The effective population is also increased by 1 for each past mind control and 1 for each past 4 subversions (I'm adding that to the other post), so there's actually 10 effective population, so 79.5 cost per effective population.

Finally, there is some other base property (I'm not sure what) that can increase the cost by 50% or 100%; in this case it's 50%, so it's only 53 cost per effective population.

Ive never mind controlled the base or subverted it before though? Also i still dont see why anyone would want to pay that much to mindcontrol a base when they can easily take it with military force for free...

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Can I have a savegame that shows this?  I have an idea of what might be going on, but it seems a bit unlikely so I'd rather check the savegame.

Okay use the cruiser probe team to incite drone riots at The Lord's Gift. However you can see no additional drone appears in the base screen either this turn or the next, nor in the pysch screen.

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Fairly often, but you can also "block" a tile with defensive units and then you need strong attackers to catch it.  The only real problem (although I favor being able to hit gravships without SAM anyway) is that SAM is available too late in comparison to air power (they're together) so the owner might not have the tech.  If SAM is moved to synthetic fossil fuels, and air power requires advanced military algorithms, that should fix the problem.

I think the main problem is that it doesnt make any sense for air units to be blocking that tile in the first place. They are flying above, they cant block movement, artillery bombardment or anything. And if you try and attack with your own interceptors, the game will use ground units to defend so that your interceptors get a -50% penalty.

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It is not a bug; a mine is worth only 1 in flat or rolling, and the first does not need a road.  (The mine is worth 2 in rocky, plus allowing the rocky itself to produce 2 instead of 1, so that's an increase of 2 that does not need a road and a third that does.)

I don't quite understand...which part requires the road? The rocky bonus?

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Savegame, please?

Load up the save game and adjust the SE choice to 100% pysch and take a look at Gaia's landing. You can see in the pysch screen that there are still 7 drones left even though the base has 220 pysch. If you change the empath to a worker, it will be a worker and not a talent even though theres more than enoguh pysch there.

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They already give a morale boost; with the probe-team-improving techs and various facilities weakened substantially, that morale boost will be quite significant for combat and success chance.  Affecting your own probe team costs is an interesting idea, but not, I think, a high priority.

Hmm okay i was just thinking that right now a +2 probe faction fighting a -2 probe faction has the same probe team odds (maxing out at 3 .0 combat strength for elite probes) which doesnt really make sense. Its also a bit unfair that probe only decreases enemy costs and not your costs.

More issues :

-The sound volume at the main menu is not controlled by the game's volume settings for some reason, for example if you decrease the sound volume ingame the main menu's volume isn't affected at all. Its a bit annoying because on my computer, the main menu is really loud and i decreased the volume ingame to compensate, and the only alternative seems to be to change my computer's main volume settings everytime i launch the game...

-If you look at the save game, the needlejet put on hold in Nettap complex isnt regenerating fuel for some reason...but it will if you manually use space bar to skip it's turn instead of setting it to hold. I also noticed this tends to happen everytime you set needlejets to hold in a base.

-About the unit list not showing units whom have moved...i found the problem. Only the colored icons next to the unit image gets grayed out, and its quite hard to see at a quick glance which is grayed out. I would post a screenshot but print screen just generates a messed up image (how do you take screenshots ingame?). Is it possible to make the name of the unit gray instead, as that would make it easier to see which unit has already moved? And also including the number of move points left would be really helpful.

Suggestions :

-Do you think its possible to remove Kyrub's AI changes from the next patch, as its currently not supported by him or anyone else at the moment and there seems to be some major AI breaking bugs in there...

-Can you include a list of all changes you did to the base game (other than allowing modable options) so that someone can update the datalinks? For example, clean mineral limits increased by tree farms, etc will be removed if the building is destroyed? Thats a pretty big change that doesnt appear to be documented anywhere.

-Possible issue with the way probe teams are returned to the nearest base. I used a probe team on Alpha Prime, and the probe team returned to Gaia's landing (see b.sav). The problem is that in order to get back to alpha prime, i have to sail all the way around the continent, making it much further than returning it to one of my bases at the southern point of the continent. I think probe teams should take into account direct access rather than just flat distance.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on October 02, 2014, 04:44:23 PM
Slight correction on artillery duels, they are to the death except when its ground vs naval for some reason, at which point both units will shoot twice then disengage.

Also i can confirm that reactor sizes are NOT disregarded when engaging in psi combat with native lifeforms. It probably should.

More issues :

-Gravship formers cannot use the "construct road/tube to" commands, you just get a message saying that "land units cannot perform this in sea squares and vice-versa for sea units". But manually building them with the "r" hotkey works.

-Apparently if you attack a air superiority needlejet in a base square with non-SAM air unit, the needlejet will defend with its armor value and not its weapon. The needlejet wont get the 100% SAM bonus vs air units either.

-Infiltrating datalinks is apparently a 100% success chance just like genetic atrocities, at the very least you do not get a warning popup showing you success rates.

-Not sure if intended : Believers +25% attack bonus doesnt apply against native lifeforms.

-Human factions no longer get interludes for discovering the borehole cluster/manifold nexus. They used to in the original game, but not in alien crossfire.

Questions :

-Is there a way to view a combat log for all combat that has occured in a particular turn? Conventional missles display the combat window for only a split second so you cant figure out what unit it hit.

-Does the free police unit from self aware colony have non-lethal methods, or does it override an existing military unit with non-lethal methods?

-Is there a way to lift yield restrictions at the start of the game, without any techs required? I Know you can change the techs required in alphax.txt, but what about no techs at all?

-What does enhanced information in alphax.txt do?

-What are the requirements to spot a sub/cloaked unit?

Suggestions :

-When raising/lowering land, can it show the elevation after the change in the popup that tells you how much it will cost? And possibly give a warning if it changes elevation band for a landmark square (so you can tell if it will remove the landmark bonus). Landmark bonuses are pretty important, especially in the early game, +1 minerals or nutrients in every square at the start can easily make a base a powerhouse.

-Economy seems pretty underpowered unless you can get it to the point where you get 1 energy per square. Maybe make economy 1 give +2 energy per base? +1 energy per base basically does nothing, and theres no reason to aim for a golden age unless you need extra growth to pop boom (playing cybernethics/pirates for example) or you already have +1 economy from elsewhere. -1 energy at the HQ base is also pretty irrelevant.

Support is also pretty underpowered once you get clean reactors. Most people will go demo/planned in the early game for obvious reasons and then just spam clean reactor units. I think it would be good if support becomes more relevant past the early game where every mineral counts. Even 4 free units per base is not very impressive given the sheer hassle involved in spreading out support (having to move the units manually to each base to change their home base) and is only really useful to get free garrisons with 2 special abilities (without clean reactors). Yang can hit max support which is really useful, but anything below that isnt very useful unfortunately.

-You cant plant forests at a monolith manually, but it can spread there. Since hybrid forests are better than monoliths, maybe allow planting forests at a monolith and have the forest take priority over a monolith if it's yield is higher? Another option would be to give a boost to monoliths when you research centauri psi, since manifold harmonics is a secret project and monoliths are only good tile yields in the early game.

-When you take over a base with a headquarters, you will get the option of freeing captured faction leaders. Another issue is that if the enemy doesnt rebuild the HQ (like with buggy AI) you will never get a chance to rescue captured faction leaders again, which is rather odd.

-Make SE choices scale more? For example right now police past +3 does nothing, but efficiency will keep scaling past +5 (as far as i can tell, it does with a children's creche at least).
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on October 02, 2014, 06:00:28 PM
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Let's put it this way: How many former-turns per extra resource do you think are needed to make the terraforming types balanced?


I dont think its former turns, but making farms, etc scale with techs like forests do.


When you consider enrichers, specialists (empowered by nutrients, of which farm+condenser+enricher has more than forests), and raising land/condensers/mirrors, I think they do scale.

An early-game (post-gene splicing, pre-tree farms) farm/solar is worth 2/1/1 give or take (might be 3 food, might be 2 energy, but also might be 1 food or 0 minerals).  A later-game (post-enrichers) farm/solar/enricher with condensers, mirrors, and land raising is worth more like 4/1/7 (depending slightly on situation).  That's definitely scaling a lot.

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I just find it weird that you cant just make a river flow to every square when you can launch satellites...canals are not exactly high leel tech. I think the drill to aquifer option is really underulitized the way its setup.


If you describe how you'd like it to work, I could probably put it on the list at some point.

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With some unit names it might become too long if its something like Green Tachyon AAA destroyer. How about including it next to the numbers? The ones that are like 1-1-1-1? Something like 1-1-1-1-Green?


Could definitely be done.  It's on the list.

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Strange, when i try to upgrade them from the workshop, i was told that there was only one unit that could be upgraded.


Ah; I didn't try upgrading from the workshop.

And that's not because of being obsolete, it's because one of them was not the unit in the workshop.  Each faction gets its own list of 64 non-pre-designed units, and that other one must have been Morgan's gatling infantry, not your own.

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Whats the point of making two different types of upgrading anyway? Its really annoying not having high morale upgrades take effect unless you upgrade through the workshop.


I'm guessing that the differences are unintentional and constitute bugs, but they're not such high priority to fix at the moment.  (If you want, you can start a thread to see if people want the two to be made to work the same; if there's widespread support for such a change, I'll put it on the list.)

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Yea but they also cant be retired for some reason?


The reason is that retiring a design is deleting it, and since all factions use the same predesigned units, retiring it for one faction would retire it for all factions.

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Ive never mind controlled the base or subverted it before though?


It counts all subversions by your faction, not just of that one base.

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Also i still dont see why anyone would want to pay that much to mindcontrol a base when they can easily take it with military force for free...


That base, they wouldn't in your situation.  But a more well-defended base, or if they're really rich but have a weak military, might be a different story, especially if it doesn't have +50% from PROBE and +50% from I-don't-know-what.

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Okay use the cruiser probe team to incite drone riots at The Lord's Gift. However you can see no additional drone appears in the base screen either this turn or the next, nor in the pysch screen.


That's because that base is maxed out on disloyal citizens, probably from having been conquered recently.  The only reason it wasn't already rioting was that last turn must have been without the drone rules change, so the number of pre-specialist drones was capped at the number of specialists (2).  Your incitement did not make any more drones, but did force it to re-check and realize there were enough drones to riot.

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I think the main problem is that it doesnt make any sense for air units to be blocking that tile in the first place. They are flying above, they cant block movement, artillery bombardment or anything. And if you try and attack with your own interceptors, the game will use ground units to defend so that your interceptors get a -50% penalty.


So you think a ground unit should be able to move under a hostile air unit (and therefore attack the other units in the square as well)?  Makes sense; I'll put that option on my list.  (Bombardment would already be enabled under a combat-rules change I'm already planning, and SAM ground units can attack air but have no -50% penalty.)

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I don't quite understand...which part requires the road? The rocky bonus?


The second point of mine bonus.  The rocky bonus requires a mine, but doesn't count as a mine bonus so it isn't blocked by not having a road.

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Savegame, please?


Load up the save game and adjust the SE choice to 100% pysch and take a look at Gaia's landing. You can see in the pysch screen that there are still 7 drones left even though the base has 220 pysch. If you change the empath to a worker, it will be a worker and not a talent even though theres more than enoguh pysch there.[/quote]

This is because the total talents, after applying psych but before cancelling the resulting talents with drones, is capped at the base population.  This limitation is also removed by mode 8 of the drone rules, and indeed setting 100% psych with mode 8 active will give you all talents.

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Hmm okay i was just thinking that right now a +2 probe faction fighting a -2 probe faction has the same probe team odds (maxing out at 3 .0 combat strength for elite probes) which doesnt really make sense.


That's because there are too many probe boosts; with fewer probe boosts (and perhaps a morale penalty for -PROBE) things will be quite different.

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Its also a bit unfair that probe only decreases enemy costs and not your costs.


That's because PROBE primarily represents security, with expertise somewhat secondary.

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-The sound volume at the main menu is not controlled by the game's volume settings for some reason, for example if you decrease the sound volume ingame the main menu's volume isn't affected at all. Its a bit annoying because on my computer, the main menu is really loud and i decreased the volume ingame to compensate, and the only alternative seems to be to change my computer's main volume settings everytime i launch the game...


Unfortunately, this is likely to be very difficult to deal with.  Setting your computer's main volume settings may be the only viable solution.

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-If you look at the save game, the needlejet put on hold in Nettap complex isnt regenerating fuel for some reason...but it will if you manually use space bar to skip it's turn instead of setting it to hold. I also noticed this tends to happen everytime you set needlejets to hold in a base.


While pressing space once (after which it shouldn't deplete fuel) isn't that big a deal, I'll put it on my list.

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-About the unit list not showing units whom have moved...i found the problem. Only the colored icons next to the unit image gets grayed out, and its quite hard to see at a quick glance which is grayed out. I would post a screenshot but print screen just generates a messed up image (how do you take screenshots ingame?).


The only way I've found that works is to open up paint (or other image program) before starting the game, and then alt-tab to paste it in.  It will look weird, but seems to work most of the time.

Although I've noticed that putting my laptop to sleep with the game running seems to reset the visual stuff; it makes SMAX look funny, but does avoid the color issues and so is likely to solve the problem too.

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Is it possible to make the name of the unit gray instead, as that would make it easier to see which unit has already moved?


Probably, but it'd be quite difficult to figure out how.  i/o stuff is always difficult in assembly.

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And also including the number of move points left would be really helpful.


That would probably be doable at some point on request, but it's not going to be one of the higher priorities.

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-Do you think its possible to remove Kyrub's AI changes from the next patch, as its currently not supported by him or anyone else at the moment and there seems to be some major AI breaking bugs in there...


Not without hugely delaying the patch.  However, have you tested to see that those bugs are in Kyrub's alone (probably are, but not certain) and are not in Scient's?

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-Can you include a list of all changes you did to the base game (other than allowing modable options) so that someone can update the datalinks? For example, clean mineral limits increased by tree farms, etc will be removed if the building is destroyed? Thats a pretty big change that doesnt appear to be documented anywhere.


That is in there, #5 here (http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Yitzi%27s_patch).

The best list of changes I have is that wiki page; I haven't kept a separate list for myself.

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-Possible issue with the way probe teams are returned to the nearest base. I used a probe team on Alpha Prime, and the probe team returned to Gaia's landing (see b.sav). The problem is that in order to get back to alpha prime, i have to sail all the way around the continent, making it much further than returning it to one of my bases at the southern point of the continent. I think probe teams should take into account direct access rather than just flat distance.


It isn't even using flat distance; if it were, it would end up at The Flowers Preach.

So I'm not quite sure how it decides the base to return them to, but it's not simply "the nearest base".

Slight correction on artillery duels, they are to the death except when its ground vs naval for some reason, at which point both units will shoot twice then disengage.


That makes more sense.  The exception is probably so that artillery isn't overpowered against naval units.

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Also i can confirm that reactor sizes are NOT disregarded when engaging in psi combat with native lifeforms. It probably should.


You sure?  I seem to remember that higher reactor doesn't help in psi combat.  If you want, you can try running some psi combats with different reactors and letting us know your results in terms of win/loss.

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-Gravship formers cannot use the "construct road/tube to" commands, you just get a message saying that "land units cannot perform this in sea squares and vice-versa for sea units". But manually building them with the "r" hotkey works.


I'm putting it with the other gravship former bug.

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-Apparently if you attack a air superiority needlejet in a base square with non-SAM air unit, the needlejet will defend with its armor value and not its weapon. The needlejet wont get the 100% SAM bonus vs air units either.


Probably because it's being attacked on the ground, not scrambling to intercept.  Think of it as the equivalent to the in-port penalty for air units.

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-Infiltrating datalinks is apparently a 100% success chance just like genetic atrocities, at the very least you do not get a warning popup showing you success rates.


Genetic atrocities are not 100% success rates; I think it only shows success rate if there is some extra factor (such as the option to frame another faction) that makes the success rate dependent on your next decision.

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-Not sure if intended : Believers +25% attack bonus doesnt apply against native lifeforms.


Known, an option to change it will probably be provided at some point.

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-Human factions no longer get interludes for discovering the borehole cluster/manifold nexus. They used to in the original game, but not in alien crossfire.


Interesting; I'm nowhere near working on interludes yet, though.

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-Is there a way to view a combat log for all combat that has occured in a particular turn? Conventional missles display the combat window for only a split second so you cant figure out what unit it hit.


I've never had trouble seeing...but no, I don't think there is any combat log.  Adding one would be doable, but fairly major and not such high priority.

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-Does the free police unit from self aware colony have non-lethal methods, or does it override an existing military unit with non-lethal methods?


Before my patch, it overrides existing units with non-lethal methods (making it a downside in some cases.)  With my patch, it does not have non-lethal methods, but will not override an existing unit that does.

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-Is there a way to lift yield restrictions at the start of the game, without any techs required? I Know you can change the techs required in alphax.txt, but what about no techs at all?


Just change the tech required to None, and that should work.

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-What does enhanced information in alphax.txt do?


Several things.  See entry #20 here (http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/New_alphax_variables_in_Yitzi%27s_patch).

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-What are the requirements to spot a sub/cloaked unit?


I think the only way is to try to move into its square (or be AI), but I'm not sure.  Feel free to experiment and let us know.

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-When raising/lowering land, can it show the elevation after the change in the popup that tells you how much it will cost? And possibly give a warning if it changes elevation band for a landmark square (so you can tell if it will remove the landmark bonus). Landmark bonuses are pretty important, especially in the early game, +1 minerals or nutrients in every square at the start can easily make a base a powerhouse.


Raising/lowering land always changes elevation band of the square affected; nearby squares are affected if they'll be more than 1 band away from the square next to them.  Actually adding it to the popup would be somewhat tricky; probably doable, but too much work for too little benefit to be high priority.

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-Economy seems pretty underpowered unless you can get it to the point where you get 1 energy per square. Maybe make economy 1 give +2 energy per base? +1 energy per base basically does nothing, and theres no reason to aim for a golden age unless you need extra growth to pop boom (playing cybernethics/pirates for example) or you already have +1 economy from elsewhere. -1 energy at the HQ base is also pretty irrelevant.


Yes, low levels are fairly insignificant unless you're ICSing.  However, changing the effects of social engineering is not one of my higher priorities.

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Support is also pretty underpowered once you get clean reactors.


I'm not so sure; if you're going constant warfare, +50% to cost is a fairly big deal.

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Even 4 free units per base is not very impressive given the sheer hassle involved in spreading out support (having to move the units manually to each base to change their home base)


If every base is producing a lot of units, they'll get those 4 free units without having to spread out.  SUPPORT-heavy social engineering is designed for a highly militant society.

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-You cant plant forests at a monolith manually, but it can spread there. Since hybrid forests are better than monoliths, maybe allow planting forests at a monolith and have the forest take priority over a monolith if it's yield is higher? Another option would be to give a boost to monoliths when you research centauri psi, since manifold harmonics is a secret project and monoliths are only good tile yields in the early game.


I am planning an option to have monoliths give, of each resource, either 2 or what fungus would give, whichever is better.  So you actually would get a boost in the late game, although only the Gaians would get it as early as Centauri Psi.

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-When you take over a base with a headquarters, you will get the option of freeing captured faction leaders. Another issue is that if the enemy doesnt rebuild the HQ (like with buggy AI) you will never get a chance to rescue captured faction leaders again, which is rather odd.


Odd, but I'm not sure where it should be done if not the HQ.

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-Make SE choices scale more? For example right now police past +3 does nothing, but efficiency will keep scaling past +5 (as far as i can tell, it does with a children's creche at least).


It's one possible future project.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on October 04, 2014, 03:18:00 PM
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When you consider enrichers, specialists (empowered by nutrients, of which farm+condenser+enricher has more than forests), and raising land/condensers/mirrors, I think they do scale.

An early-game (post-gene splicing, pre-tree farms) farm/solar is worth 2/1/1 give or take (might be 3 food, might be 2 energy, but also might be 1 food or 0 minerals).  A later-game (post-enrichers) farm/solar/enricher with condensers, mirrors, and land raising is worth more like 4/1/7 (depending slightly on situation).  That's definitely scaling a lot.

I meant that they dont scale automatically. You dont need to go out of your way to get the +1 mining plateform bonus or tree farms/hybrid forests, as you need those techs/facilities anyway.

An early game rolling/rainy square typically gives 3/2/0, assuming you disable mines lowering nutrients and most squares are below 1000 meters. Thats of course much better than a early game forest, but hybrids give the same nutrients as a rainy + farm, the same minerals as a rolling + mine and the same energy as a 1000 meter square with solar collector....except that you only need to build a forest and not worry about building anything else. For most of the game you wont have enough formers due to support limits so you have to be efficient with terraforming. Even a farm + soil enricher + mine is going to net you 4/2/0 at best, which is much worse than a hybrid forest. Theres also the problem that a tidal harness + facility nets you 4 energy per square if im not wrong, with minimal investment. To equal that you need to spend how many turns raising land and building a complex network of echelon mirrors and solar collectors? Turns that could have been spent on more tidal harnesses and foil supplies.

I find that raising land is problematic for two reasons : it costs credits and it can screw up things like river placement, coastal tiles and landmark squares. If my HQ is in the garland crater, i am not going to raise land and lose the precious +1 mineral bonus per square.

Also the problem with condensors and echelon mirrors is that you cant freely stack them. For example i could have a farm with a condensor, but i cant put a solar collector in the same square. That also limits the amount of echelon mirrors i can have affect one square. Meanwhile i can have two forests each producing 3/2/2.

Using supply crawlers only makes sense when you only want one resource from that tile or when the tile is outside the base radius. For example it makes no sense to put a crawler on a 3/2/2 forest. Even if you have enough nutrients to support a base pop of mostly specialists, you wont have enough energy/minerals because you arent working enough forests/boreholes. With a size 14 bae and forest spamming, i can easily generate enough nutrients from hybrid forests alone to have rocky mines/coastal tiles worked by crawlers, which gives me a nice balance of minerals and everything else. Theres no reason for me to switch the forests over to condensors and farms since that would mean losing a ton of minerals/energy. Look at my bases in a.sav, i have no shortage of nutrients and im not even working most of my kelp farms at my HQ.

Part of the imbalance is that mines always give at least +1 minerals, which is worth 2 energy (and isnt lost to inefficiency). Solar collectors only give +1 energy unless its a high elevation square, but a hybrid forest gives the equivalent of 4 energy (2 minerals/2 energy). Thats as much energy as a 3k+ meter square with a solar collector except the odds of you having a base with 3k+ meters squares is really low. Also a coastal tile gives you access to tidal harnesses that give 4 energy with the facility bonus, except that you dont need to use 3k+ meter elevation squares or echelon mirrors. I could try playing with the map editor to see which is better, forest spamming or using advanced terraforming, but the ease of forest spamming is a definate advantage.

Probably should move the discussion of forests, etc to another forum...

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If you describe how you'd like it to work, I could probably put it on the list at some point.

Without knowing how the current river system works its hard to say....from what i can tell it seems to flow downhill but how the game determines the exact tiles created with a river seems pretty random, especially as it changes with interaction with other rivers. I think for a start decreasing the number of turns to drill to aquifer and removing the inability to drill in adjacent river squares would be a good start.

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Ah; I didn't try upgrading from the workshop.

And that's not because of being obsolete, it's because one of them was not the unit in the workshop.  Each faction gets its own list of 64 non-pre-designed units, and that other one must have been Morgan's gatling infantry, not your own.

Actually both of those were subverted units. When you subvert a unit, it gets added to your workshop, but the reason why only one did was because one of them was obsolete. I think thats also why one of them says its receiving support from a base but the other has no base listed as support.

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The reason is that retiring a design is deleting it, and since all factions use the same predesigned units, retiring it for one faction would retire it for all factions.

Thats strange, doesnt the AI use the same pre-designed units as well? So for example if you subvert a unit and then retire the design, shouldnt it in theory retire all remaining units of that design in all factions?

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That base, they wouldn't in your situation.  But a more well-defended base, or if they're really rich but have a weak military, might be a different story, especially if it doesn't have +50% from PROBE and +50% from I-don't-know-what.

Then maybe the formulae should make it more expensive based on how hard the base is to take via conventional means instead, making it really cheap to take a lightly defended base. Also while i was testing out a different installation with just the official patch + your patch, i noticed mind control costs were dirt cheap...i could corner the energy market with only 2k+ credits and there were dozens of enemy bases on the map, total enemy pop was 200+. Im not sure if scient's patch touched probe team costs though, but mind control costs in your patch are much higher.

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The second point of mine bonus.  The rocky bonus requires a mine, but doesn't count as a mine bonus so it isn't blocked by not having a road.

Hmm...when do mines give +2 minerals instead of just one? Is it on rolling/rocky?

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This is because the total talents, after applying psych but before cancelling the resulting talents with drones, is capped at the base population.  This limitation is also removed by mode 8 of the drone rules, and indeed setting 100% psych with mode 8 active will give you all talents.

Ah i see, but from what i could tell, specialists still take up potential talent slots?

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Not without hugely delaying the patch.  However, have you tested to see that those bugs are in Kyrub's alone (probably are, but not certain) and are not in Scient's?

Yea i did a fresh install of AX and just installed the official patch + your patch. From what i could tell, the AI seems to behave the same as in my installation with scient's patch + your patch. Its hard to test as the game keeps crashing without scient's patch and theres a weird bug where the mouse cursor suddenly stops working ingame and i have to use the keyboard shortcuts to exit the game.

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That makes more sense.  The exception is probably so that artillery isn't overpowered against naval units.

Well if you remove the land based bonus that land artillery gets, then it gets more even.

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You sure?  I seem to remember that higher reactor doesn't help in psi combat.  If you want, you can try running some psi combats with different reactors and letting us know your results in terms of win/loss.

I had my singularity units fight enemy faction controlled mind worms and they started the psi combat with 40 hp. Not sure if this applies to normal units vs alien controlled lifeforms as well...will need to check.

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I'm putting it with the other gravship former bug.

I forgot to mention : They do have access to the automatic roads/tubes command but clicking it does nothing nor is there any error message.

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Genetic atrocities are not 100% success rates; I think it only shows success rate if there is some extra factor (such as the option to frame another faction) that makes the success rate dependent on your next decision.

I think it should show the success rate at least, just so that players will know whether to risk it or not.

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Just change the tech required to None, and that should work.

Thanks, that did the trick.

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I'm not so sure; if you're going constant warfare, +50% to cost is a fairly big deal.

True, but without clean reactor spamming, your bases run out of minerals very quickly. Unless im playing yang/believers, i find it very difficult to build more than a handful of units per base before clean reactors. Especially as demo-planned is so good.

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I am planning an option to have monoliths give, of each resource, either 2 or what fungus would give, whichever is better.  So you actually would get a boost in the late game, although only the Gaians would get it as early as Centauri Psi.

Can you also make it give the forest yield (3/2/2) if it would be better than the monolith yield? I cant recall if the game lets you plant forests at a monolith manually which might be another issue...

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Odd, but I'm not sure where it should be done if not the HQ.

Hmm well i think ideally the captured faction leaders would get transferred over to you if you take over a base with a HQ and you get to decide what to do with them from then on. But for that to work properly i think the game would also need to let you have the option of freeing captured faction leaders any time you wanted, which might be difficult to get working...

Issues :

-Check out b.sav, after i hit end turn, i get a urgent message from yang, but clicking ok doesnt give me any conversation window.

-Check out a.sav and look at home:hearth that is building the longevity vaccine. I have almost 100 extra minerals, but not all of that is getting carried over to the next building, the biology lab. I set the game to carry over unlimited minerals, but only 42 minerals are getting carried over, out of nearly 100 extra minerals.

-Bonus resources are invisible in sea squares of ocean depth or deeper. This is an issue because you cant see the bonus resources when settling bases which is important for positioning, especially at the start of the game. Very annoying to find out that you settle your base 1 tile out of range of a bonus resource square.

-When selecting a tile on the map with shift+click, tile yields bonuses from tree farms, hybrid forests, economy bonuses or the merchant exchange are not displayed.

-Immunity/Robust : Growth does nothing for SE. Immunity : efficiency for yang obviously works, but when i tried to make a custom faction with immunity/robust : growth, it did nothing whatsoever when i chose the Green SE model.

-In the "about" menu ingame, it says your patch version is still 2.5.

-Units disbanded via the retire option in the workshop do not appear to give their bases any additional minerals from disbanding.

Suggestions :

-Auto recycle buildings before they are replaced by the free buildings granted by secret projects? I mean, you could do it manually before you finish building the secret project, but its a hassle to keep track of.

-If you get a hurry penalty from not having enough minerals, have the game warn you in the hurry screen that there is a penalty.

-For progenitor prototypes, can there be some kind of indicator that it is a prototype with the 2 square sight radius?

Questions :

-What is the terraforming penalty for farms, etc pre-tree farm? Does each farm, etc add 1 virtual mineral or something?

-Does the AI receive any boosts?
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on October 04, 2014, 04:50:31 PM
Noticed a huge bug with how intercepting needlejets do air combat.

I had SAM needlejets in a base and noticed they were getting destroyed by non-SAM usurper needlejets.

Looking at the combat results, it seems that when the usurper needlejets move close enough to trigger intercepting defenders, the game will move the interceptors next to the enemy needlejet. The enemy needlejet will then attack the intercepting needlejet, even if the enemy needlejet does NOT have SAM. Because of this, the usurper needlejet was getting its 25% attack bonus (and presumably believers would as well). The intercepting needlejet does NOT get the caretakers 25% defence bonus (even though it is being attacked) and will also NOT get its +100% SAM bonus vs non-SAM air units. The combat is also calculated as weapon vs weapon instead of weapon vs armor (As is normal for SAM needlejet vs non-SAM needlejet).  This basically means you dont need to worry about using SAM jets to clear away enemy interceptors.

So a SAM needlejet intercepting enemy needlejets can easily get destroyed beacuse it doesnt get its 100% SAM bonus that it should be getting. However if you attack enemy needlejets manually (on your turn, before they fly back to base) the attack will be resolved against their armor values and you will receive the 100% SAM bonus as per normal.

A simplefix would probably be to make the interceptors attack the hostile air units first, so that would give them the SAM bonus vs armor. Making the caretaker defence bonus work would probably be harder though...
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on October 04, 2014, 10:41:05 PM
I can confirm that a singularity unit will start with 40 hp for all psi combat against native life forms, whether alien or faction controlled.

Issues :

-Caretaker artillery do not get the 25% defence bonus when attacked

-No air units can mount anti-grav struts despite what the description says (that it gives reactor*2 moves to air units)

-Planet modifiers for psi combat do not apply to the defender

-Progenitor energy grid doesnt count free buildings from secret projects like the command nexus

-You can build a hologram theater before you build the virtual world, and if you do, the hologram thearters will remain in the base and still cost energy to maintain, even though it does nothing at this point.

-Air units exert a ZOC on ground units, even though different domains shouldnt (naval doesnt exert a ZOC on ground units for example)

-If playing as caretakers and a surrendered human faction starts building the ascent to transcendence, you will automatically go straight back to vendetta. They probably shouldnt be able to do that.

-Even with "carry over unlimited minerals" and "build more than one item at a time" turned on, you cannot build more than one satellite at a time unless you manually queue them, but you can build multiples of anyhting else (e.g. units) without queing them manually.

Suggestion :

-Include a setting to make all non-combat units (terraformers, transports, etc) use up no support just like crawlers/probe teams. I suspect this will make support much more useful when you dont need to worry about an army of terraformers taking up minerals.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Lord Avalon on October 04, 2014, 11:17:25 PM
-No air units can mount anti-grav struts despite what the description says (that it gives reactor*2 moves to air units)
This is a simple alphax.txt change. Go to Antigrav Struts under Special Unit Abilities and change the third zero from the right to a 1.

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-Include a setting to make all non-combat units (terraformers, transports, etc) use up no support just like crawlers/probe teams. I suspect this will make support much more useful when you dont need to worry about an army of terraformers taking up minerals.
Maybe you should prioritize clean reactors. I build dozens of clean formers.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on October 05, 2014, 12:16:38 AM
Yea but that stuff should eventually get fixed in the next patch instead of asking everyone to fix it themselves.

Oh and i forgot :

- Half morale modifiers from -2 morale do not appear to work (you still get full morale modifiers).
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Nexii on October 05, 2014, 01:48:36 AM
Singularity units will start at 40 HP but they take damage at 4x the rate vs native life.  That is the native life ignores the reactor.

Excess nutrients from farm/solar become more important if you increase pop limits to 10/20 from 7/14.  Also I mod SE settings so that the easy boom from Demo+Planned is more difficult to maintain.  Demo+FM with GA is another option, but I also took out early booming with that.  Main issue remains that Hybrid Forest just comes a bit too early for tech.  7 FOP isn't overpowering from forests when you compare to things like default borehole (12 FOP) or late game solar/farm/echelon (~7-9 FOP) with raising disabled.  I wouldn't say 1M=2E.  For building things, yes, even SPs go to 1M=4E.  However E gets stronger modifiers early, huge modifiers depending on commerce, and doesn't suffer from ecodamage late.  It's hard to equate but I'd rate it more like 1M~1E.  Sometimes M>E and sometimes E>M.

I also play with raising & lowering disabled.  It makes circumventing the map terrain too easy.  I feel a differing map layout is one of the few things that makes each game unique.

Virtual World doesn't give free Holo Theatres.  Only makes Network Nodes act as them.  Though it is a thing in general, 'actual' built facilities for any SP will still cost maintenance. Command Nexus, Maritime Control Center, Cloudbase Academy all work this way.  Not sure if that's really intended or not..
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on October 05, 2014, 04:40:12 AM
I meant that they dont scale automatically. You dont need to go out of your way to get the +1 mining plateform bonus or tree farms/hybrid forests, as you need those techs/facilities anyway.

Well, you don't actually need the tree farms/hybrid forests, but the extra former time is a concern; IIRC, it still balances out, but I am planning to reconsider the strengths of various terraforming options and adjust accordingly.

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An early game rolling/rainy square typically gives 3/2/0, assuming you disable mines lowering nutrients and most squares are below 1000 meters. Thats of course much better than a early game forest, but hybrids give the same nutrients as a rainy + farm, the same minerals as a rolling + mine and the same energy as a 1000 meter square with solar collector....except that you only need to build a forest and not worry about building anything else.

But of course by that point or soon after, you're not looking at rainy+farm, but rather rainy+farm+enricher.  And you're looking at maglevs too, so with the boost I'm planning, that's 3 minerals.

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For most of the game you wont have enough formers due to support limits

What support limits?  With 10 squares at an average of 2 minerals each, and a genejack factory, you've got 30 minerals to the base, easily enough to spend a few on supporting formers.  Assuming that you don't just get clean formers (available at bioengineering which is early-ish midgame.)

Well, unless you play with an overpowered attack (makes for shorter games so that bioengineering and retroviral are fairly late) or where maglevs don't boost mines (so there's less minerals available), or with ecodamage rules that cause clean minerals to be an actual "cap" (also less minerals available) or easy pop booms (so that you need a huge number of formers to keep up with growth)...but all of those are things that either can be modded away, or on the list to become moddable away.

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so you have to be efficient with terraforming. Even a farm + soil enricher + mine is going to net you 4/2/0 at best, which is much worse than a hybrid forest.

I'm currently planning to make it give 4/3/0 with maglev, which is actually better when you consider the power of midgame specialists (assuming that hab dome limits are increased somewhat).

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Theres also the problem that a tidal harness + facility nets you 4 energy per square if im not wrong, with minimal investment. To equal that you need to spend how many turns raising land and building a complex network of echelon mirrors and solar collectors? Turns that could have been spent on more tidal harnesses and foil supplies.

For 4 energy per square?  8 turns per square (for 50% mirrors 50% collectors, no need to raise) is enough.

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I find that raising land is problematic for two reasons : it costs credits and it can screw up things like river placement, coastal tiles and landmark squares. If my HQ is in the garland crater, i am not going to raise land and lose the precious +1 mineral bonus per square.

Makes sense...perhaps it should be balanced assuming no raising, and then raising made to not imbalance it.

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Also the problem with condensors and echelon mirrors is that you cant freely stack them. For example i could have a farm with a condensor, but i cant put a solar collector in the same square. That also limits the amount of echelon mirrors i can have affect one square. Meanwhile i can have two forests each producing 3/2/2.

"Condenser does not replace mine/solar/mirror/etc" is explicitly on my list of future mods to enable.

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Using supply crawlers only makes sense when you only want one resource from that tile or when the tile is outside the base radius. For example it makes no sense to put a crawler on a 3/2/2 forest. Even if you have enough nutrients to support a base pop of mostly specialists, you wont have enough energy/minerals because you arent working enough forests/boreholes. With a size 14 bae and forest spamming, i can easily generate enough nutrients from hybrid forests alone to have rocky mines/coastal tiles worked by crawlers, which gives me a nice balance of minerals and everything else. Theres no reason for me to switch the forests over to condensors and farms since that would mean losing a ton of minerals/energy. Look at my bases in a.sav, i have no shortage of nutrients and im not even working most of my kelp farms at my HQ.

You have no shortage of nutrients, but are you able to support a large number of engineers and thinkers?

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Part of the imbalance is that mines always give at least +1 minerals, which is worth 2 energy (and isnt lost to inefficiency).

1 mineral is not worth 2 energy, as energy can be used for things other than rush buying (and even rush buying is helped by having economy-boosting facilities, which are easier to get than mineral-boosting facilities.)

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but a hybrid forest gives the equivalent of 4 energy (2 minerals/2 energy). Thats as much energy as a 3k+ meter square with a solar collector except the odds of you having a base with 3k+ meters squares is really low. Also a coastal tile gives you access to tidal harnesses that give 4 energy with the facility bonus, except that you dont need to use 3k+ meter elevation squares or echelon mirrors. I could try playing with the map editor to see which is better, forest spamming or using advanced terraforming, but the ease of forest spamming is a definate advantage.

You're not considering nutrients and their ability to support specialists, though.

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Probably should move the discussion of forests, etc to another forum...

Perhaps, though here's fine too if you want.

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Without knowing how the current river system works its hard to say....from what i can tell it seems to flow downhill but how the game determines the exact tiles created with a river seems pretty random, especially as it changes with interaction with other rivers. I think for a start decreasing the number of turns to drill to aquifer and removing the inability to drill in adjacent river squares would be a good start.

The first can be done with alphax.txt; the second wouldn't help much, I think, as I think it would automatically just lead into the existing river.

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Actually both of those were subverted units. When you subvert a unit, it gets added to your workshop, but the reason why only one did was because one of them was obsolete. I think thats also why one of them says its receiving support from a base but the other has no base listed as support.

The fact that one says it's receiving support and the other doesn't is that your SUPPORT rating makes one get free support but not the other.

As for why only one gets added, I'm guessing that when the first one is subverted, it's added to your workshop and also changes to that type, but the second, because it doesn't add to your workshop, doesn't change type.  (It can't always change type, as if you have all 64 slots occupied it won't add to your workshop.)  Which is a bug, though not really a major one in most cases, and the cases where it is significant would remain significant even if you've got all 64 slots filled (in which case it can't enter your workshop because there are no slots.)

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Thats strange, doesnt the AI use the same pre-designed units as well? So for example if you subvert a unit and then retire the design, shouldnt it in theory retire all remaining units of that design in all factions?

No, because when you subvert a non-pre-designed unit it creates a new design for you, and retiring it affects only yours (and any that were yours and subverted without changing the design; in your game, if Lal retired his design, it would retire the unit that wasn't upgraded under your design.  Unfortunately, I'm not sure what should happen that this wouldn't be a problem at least if you lack a slot for a new design.)

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Then maybe the formulae should make it more expensive based on how hard the base is to take via conventional means instead, making it really cheap to take a lightly defended base.

I don't think so; it's better for the game if different methods are more effective in different situations.

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Also while i was testing out a different installation with just the official patch + your patch, i noticed mind control costs were dirt cheap...i could corner the energy market with only 2k+ credits and there were dozens of enemy bases on the map, total enemy pop was 200+. Im not sure if scient's patch touched probe team costs though, but mind control costs in your patch are much higher.

What were your social engineering settings and tech?  A strong commerce rating in comparison to your opponents makes cornering a lot cheaper.

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Hmm...when do mines give +2 minerals instead of just one? Is it on rolling/rocky?

Just rocky.

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Ah i see, but from what i could tell, specialists still take up potential talent slots?

I'm not sure what you mean.

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Yea i did a fresh install of AX and just installed the official patch + your patch. From what i could tell, the AI seems to behave the same as in my installation with scient's patch + your patch. Its hard to test as the game keeps crashing without scient's patch and theres a weird bug where the mouse cursor suddenly stops working ingame and i have to use the keyboard shortcuts to exit the game.

That's strange; scient's patch followed by mine should be the same as just mine.

But what about scient's patch without mine?

And what about scient's and Kyrub's but without mine?

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Well if you remove the land based bonus that land artillery gets, then it gets more even.

True, but that's not default and it's not fair to balance only with such a mod.

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I forgot to mention : They do have access to the automatic roads/tubes command but clicking it does nothing nor is there any error message.

Sounds like a bug.

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I think it should show the success rate at least, just so that players will know whether to risk it or not.

Might not be a bad idea, but not high priority.

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True, but without clean reactor spamming, your bases run out of minerals very quickly.

That sort of depends on how many minerals you're producing in the first place, doesn't it?  Plus, of course, on how fast your units die.

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Can you also make it give the forest yield (3/2/2) if it would be better than the monolith yield? I cant recall if the game lets you plant forests at a monolith manually which might be another issue...

Forest instead of monolith doesn't really make in-game sense, though, the way that fungus instead of monolith does.

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Hmm well i think ideally the captured faction leaders would get transferred over to you if you take over a base with a HQ and you get to decide what to do with them from then on. But for that to work properly i think the game would also need to let you have the option of freeing captured faction leaders any time you wanted, which might be difficult to get working...

It would indeed, simply in terms of UI.

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-Check out b.sav, after i hit end turn, i get a urgent message from yang, but clicking ok doesnt give me any conversation window.

Didn't get any message myself.

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-Check out a.sav and look at home:hearth that is building the longevity vaccine. I have almost 100 extra minerals, but not all of that is getting carried over to the next building, the biology lab. I set the game to carry over unlimited minerals, but only 42 minerals are getting carried over, out of nearly 100 extra minerals.

No matter how many minerals you're able to carry over, you can never carry over minerals that were not produced this turn (in this case, 42.)  This rule was probably made in order to prevent abuse involving different rush costs.

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-Bonus resources are invisible in sea squares of ocean depth or deeper. This is an issue because you cant see the bonus resources when settling bases which is important for positioning, especially at the start of the game. Very annoying to find out that you settle your base 1 tile out of range of a bonus resource square.

I think this is because they are inactive in such squares.  Fungus works the same way.

-When selecting a tile on the map with shift+click, tile yields bonuses from tree farms, hybrid forests, economy bonuses or the merchant exchange are not displayed.[/quote]

This is because those are not part of the value of the tile, but depend on the base using the tile.  (Except for economy bonuses, for which the statement is not true.)

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-Immunity/Robust : Growth does nothing for SE. Immunity : efficiency for yang obviously works, but when i tried to make a custom faction with immunity/robust : growth, it did nothing whatsoever when i chose the Green SE model.

Can you provide the faction file?

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-In the "about" menu ingame, it says your patch version is still 2.5.

Yes, I forgot to update that.

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-Units disbanded via the retire option in the workshop do not appear to give their bases any additional minerals from disbanding.

Would be more trouble to fix than it's worth, as usually you'll retire something that has no units, or if it did have units would have few enough to disband the ones in bases manually.

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-Auto recycle buildings before they are replaced by the free buildings granted by secret projects? I mean, you could do it manually before you finish building the secret project, but its a hassle to keep track of.

You can recycle them after the project too if you want.  Something that comes from both project and actual presence will IIRC have a star next to it, and can be recycled (removing the star).

Auto recycling would be a bad idea; if you conquer or build the Command Nexus but aren't sure you'll be able to keep it, you might not want to recycle all your existing command centers and then not have them if you lose the Command Nexus.

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-If you get a hurry penalty from not having enough minerals, have the game warn you in the hurry screen that there is a penalty.

It's an idea, but not high priority.

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-For progenitor prototypes, can there be some kind of indicator that it is a prototype with the 2 square sight radius?

I'd have to figure out how it records that it is a prototype, which isn't the highest priority.  It would be a possible future request, though.

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-What is the terraforming penalty for farms, etc pre-tree farm? Does each farm, etc add 1 virtual mineral or something?

Each farm adds 1/8 virtual minerals if not worked, and 1/4 if it is worked.

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-Does the AI receive any boosts?

Depends on difficulty level.

Noticed a huge bug with how intercepting needlejets do air combat.

I had SAM needlejets in a base and noticed they were getting destroyed by non-SAM usurper needlejets.

Looking at the combat results, it seems that when the usurper needlejets move close enough to trigger intercepting defenders, the game will move the interceptors next to the enemy needlejet. The enemy needlejet will then attack the intercepting needlejet, even if the enemy needlejet does NOT have SAM. Because of this, the usurper needlejet was getting its 25% attack bonus (and presumably believers would as well). The intercepting needlejet does NOT get the caretakers 25% defence bonus (even though it is being attacked) and will also NOT get its +100% SAM bonus vs non-SAM air units. The combat is also calculated as weapon vs weapon instead of weapon vs armor (As is normal for SAM needlejet vs non-SAM needlejet).  This basically means you dont need to worry about using SAM jets to clear away enemy interceptors.

So a SAM needlejet intercepting enemy needlejets can easily get destroyed beacuse it doesnt get its 100% SAM bonus that it should be getting. However if you attack enemy needlejets manually (on your turn, before they fly back to base) the attack will be resolved against their armor values and you will receive the 100% SAM bonus as per normal.

The reason this happens is because interception takes the form of moving to the attacked unit's square and being attacked instead, meaning that both units use their attack values and it counts as a dogfight.

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A simplefix would probably be to make the interceptors attack the hostile air units first, so that would give them the SAM bonus vs armor. Making the caretaker defence bonus work would probably be harder though...

Actually, my plans for a combat rework will allow an option where non-SAM units cannot damage in-the-air needlejets under any circumstances (though they can sometimes survive being attacked by needlejets), which will solve this nicely.

Issues :

-Caretaker artillery do not get the 25% defence bonus when attacked

Is this true even when attacked by non-artillery units?

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-Planet modifiers for psi combat do not apply to the defender

Known and apparently intended; a possible target for future changes, but not a real issue.

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-Progenitor energy grid doesnt count free buildings from secret projects like the command nexus

That's because they're not really there.

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-You can build a hologram theater before you build the virtual world, and if you do, the hologram thearters will remain in the base and still cost energy to maintain, even though it does nothing at this point.

They can be sold if you want, or kept in case you lose the virtual world.

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-Air units exert a ZOC on ground units, even though different domains shouldnt (naval doesnt exert a ZOC on ground units for example)

Probably because they can attack them.  A staple of the Civ series IIRC, and a possible future change but not high priority.

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-If playing as caretakers and a surrendered human faction starts building the ascent to transcendence, you will automatically go straight back to vendetta. They probably shouldnt be able to do that.

Yes, surrendering to the caretakers should probably prevent building the Voice or Ascent.  Not a major priority at the moment, though.  (Note that if several other people also agree with you on the importance of something, it'll probably rise in priority.)

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-Even with "carry over unlimited minerals" and "build more than one item at a time" turned on, you cannot build more than one satellite at a time unless you manually queue them, but you can build multiples of anyhting else (e.g. units) without queing them manually.

I thought I fixed this.  Savegame please?  (Although note that to build 2 satellites you'd need a huge amount of production to finish one and then build the entirety of the second.)

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-Include a setting to make all non-combat units (terraformers, transports, etc) use up no support just like crawlers/probe teams. I suspect this will make support much more useful when you dont need to worry about an army of terraformers taking up minerals.

No, it'll make it less useful because you don't need it as often.

However, enabling customizing of what units require support is a possible future project, though not high priority.

Yea but that stuff should eventually get fixed in the next patch instead of asking everyone to fix it themselves.

No, as the default is that air units can't get it, so that's the "fixed" version and anything else is a mod.

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- Half morale modifiers from -2 morale do not appear to work (you still get full morale modifiers).

To clarify: Modifiers halved doesn't refer to the combat bonus from morale, but rather to the boost from the command center and similar buildings; they give +1 instead of the usual +2.

Excess nutrients from farm/solar become more important if you increase pop limits to 10/20 from 7/14.  Also I mod SE settings so that the easy boom from Demo+Planned is more difficult to maintain.  Demo+FM with GA is another option, but I also took out early booming with that.  Main issue remains that Hybrid Forest just comes a bit too early for tech.

True; this was the idea behind my proposal of having Planetary Economics require Environmental Economics and Pre-Sentient Algorithms; this puts it at a similar level as Advanced Ecological Engineering.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Nexii on October 05, 2014, 11:49:33 AM
Yep.  I put Hybrid Forests at Biomachinery instead which is also B7.  I think it might be more tempting to go that route for Genejacks.  More of a tech split: AdvEco2 for E focus, or BioMach for M focus.  But I may consider redoing the tech order instead.  I guess you can mod both ways. 

By default I'd say forests win out.  The former time and cost of TF/HF facility are less than overall cost of farm+solar raising.  If TF/HF only gave the resource bonuses and not Eco/Psy it would be pretty close imo.  It doesn't take much modding to skew terraforming in favor of farms and solar at the exclusion of forests.  In trying to make forests weaker more often I've found I made them useless than not.

I think there's something to be said for altitude mattering when it comes to terraforming.  Otherwise every base ends up the same.  Ideally I think low altitude should go forest or mine/farm and borehole, and high altitude farm/solar/echelon.  Borehole is still the strongest of all, by a big margin.  I take borehole down to 0/0/9 lately.  I think 0/5/5 would also be okay.  Mainly I don't like borehole being so strong and expensive on FTs as it makes Weather Paradigm too crucial
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on October 05, 2014, 12:53:28 PM
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You have no shortage of nutrients, but are you able to support a large number of engineers and thinkers?

Not sure why i would want that. Every worker gives me 2 minerals/2 energy from a hybrid forest before bonuses. By the time i get access to advanced specialists, the game is pretty much over and its way too late to start a lengthy terraforming process. An engineer is 3 econ/2 labs before bonuses, which is 5 energy.

So lets say you have a energy bank, tree farm and hybrid forest at this stage giving a total of 150% to econ and a network node and research hospital giving 100% to labs. That engineer is giving you a total of 7.5 econ and 4 labs. A worker on a hybrid forest would give you 3 nutrients, 2 minerals, 3.5 energy and 3 labs. In terms of rush buying stuff, both are equal (the equivalent of 7.5 energy) but the engineer has 1 more lab. This assumes no energy lost to inefficiency. I suppose the engineer would be better if you were hitting the clean mineral limit easily, in a strictly forest or engineer scenario. Also switching from the auto-selected empaths to engineers constantly is annoying.

I did luck out in my current game and managed to find a base spot which was pretty high, so i tried solar collectors. The problems with it were that it took more than twice as long to terraform and was much more micro intensive and since i was getitng low food from arid tiles (and had no space for condensors), i had to rely on pop booming to grow the base. Also for it to be optimal i would need to leave a one tile layer of echelon mirrors beyond the base radius, which is not always possile due to map placement of resources, etc.

Relying on a rush buying strategy instead of minerals also created a micromanagement nightmare since you have to rush buy everything instead of queing a bunch of facilities and letting the base build them.

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The first can be done with alphax.txt; the second wouldn't help much, I think, as I think it would automatically just lead into the existing river.

Yea i think it would help if the base turns were lowered, but allowing people to drill to aquifer adjacent to rivers allows you to essentially "fix" rivers that decide to flow somewhere totally unexpected or for some reason, makes a land drier, as well as auto placed rivers with bad flows. It also lets you fix rivers that have gone haywire after terrain elevation changes.

See pic, the initial square was moist, but after a river flows through it, it becomes arid for some reason....which makes no sense...sometimes creating another river nearby can completely alter a current river's flow for no clear reason, often with a worse result. RIght now its too random to use without the scenario editor checking before hand to see what the resulting river would look like.

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What were your social engineering settings and tech?  A strong commerce rating in comparison to your opponents makes cornering a lot cheaper.[/qu

Ah i see, i was playing as morgan and had +4 economy, so that might have been why...it wasnt mentioned in the datalinks that the economy SE lowered the cost to corner the global energy market.

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Just rocky.

It seems that you still need a road if you put a mine in a mineral bonus tile though?

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I'm not sure what you mean.

I mean that any specialists still wont count as talents for the purpose of golden ages even with drones rule 8.

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That's strange; scient's patch followed by mine should be the same as just mine.

But what about scient's patch without mine?

And what about scient's and Kyrub's but without mine?

I meant that without scient's patch and only your patch + the official patch, i was getitng lots of game breaking glitches like mouse cursor suddenly not responding, etc. I didnt try kyrub's patch because it was mared for AC and not AX. He doesnt want to send you any files by the way (see the reply he posted in his thread).

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True, but that's not default and it's not fair to balance only with such a mod.

Okay but what is the point of having a land based gun bonus vs naval? Land based guns cost a lot less less than naval ones and can be hidden in any bases (including sea ones, where they still count as land based guns for some reason). It makes it pointless to use naval artillery since, IIRC, one land based gun can take on 3 naval guns of the same strength with ease, not to mention dragging the artillery duel out for several turns. It doesnt even make sense realism wise because naval ships can easily mount higher calibre guns.

By default its super easy to make a base immune to sea invasions. Just stick a few cheap infantry artillery units in there to prevent naval bombardment plus AAA to take care of air units. The enemy wont have any way to soften up defenses before attacking head on into naval yard + tachyon fields.

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That sort of depends on how many minerals you're producing in the first place, doesn't it?  Plus, of course, on how fast your units die.

Not sure how it goes for everyone else, but my bases typically have one garrison + one former in the early game. If theres a war i try to have a rover as a quick response unit, plus a artillery unit to defend against bombards and when the enemy gets air power, at least two interceptors per front line base. Thats a lot of minerals for the bare essential defence force. Considering how slow infantry formers are, im often tempted to get a lot more to speed things up even with weather paradigm. Then factor in sea formers and a few naval units for coastal defence and you can have a base with 6+ minerals gone to support which is pretty significant.

I think it would help a lot if formers at least didnt have support requirements, just like probe teams. Imagine if you had to pay support for probe teams too...also the CM limit is calculated before subtracting minerals from support, so thats another incentive to be as mineral efficient as possible.

Another annoying thing about support is that you usaully have a base good for producing units but want it supported by another base, and there doesnt seem to be any way to do that other than produce the unit and painstakingly move it to another base, change the home base, then move it back to the frontline. Its much easier to not worry about that with clean reactors (or maxing out on SE support).

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Forest instead of monolith doesn't really make in-game sense, though, the way that fungus instead of monolith does.

Well they are just two different types of plant life in the same tile surrounding a monolith. Its just annoying that you can end up with hybrid forests that are better than monoliths but still get the lower monolith yield.

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Didn't get any message myself.

Strange, i loaded the save several times and kept getting it...

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No matter how many minerals you're able to carry over, you can never carry over minerals that were not produced this turn (in this case, 42.)  This rule was probably made in order to prevent abuse involving different rush costs.

That doesnt make sense because in the first turn, i had 42 minerals go towards the secret project. In the next, i assigned a expensive supply needlejet to the secret project. So what the game should have done is assign 42 minerals from the first turn towards the secret project, fill up the remainder from the supply needlejet, then carry over whatever is left from the needlejet to the biology lab (and those minerals were produced this turn).

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I think this is because they are inactive in such squares.  Fungus works the same way.

Is there a way to make it permanently active then? Also i noticed that if you raise a sea tile with a bonus resource to land level, the bonus resource will vanish.

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Can you provide the faction file?

Im pretty sure it affects all factions, try changing yang's immunity from EFFIC to GROWTH, i did that and i was still getting negative growth modifiers from going GREEN.

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You can recycle them after the project too if you want.  Something that comes from both project and actual presence will IIRC have a star next to it, and can be recycled (removing the star).

Auto recycling would be a bad idea; if you conquer or build the Command Nexus but aren't sure you'll be able to keep it, you might not want to recycle all your existing command centers and then not have them if you lose the Command Nexus.

Oh good point, i didnt think of that.

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Depends on difficulty level.

Any idea if theres a list of modifiers that the AI get posted somewhere?

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The reason this happens is because interception takes the form of moving to the attacked unit's square and being attacked instead, meaning that both units use their attack values and it counts as a dogfight.

Yea the problem is that theres no reason to use interceptors when they cant get their SAM bonus when intercepting. At the very least they should get the SAM bonus, that way you would need to use your own interceptors to clear enemy interceptors. Right now its easier to just build normal needlejets and zerg the enemy airbase instead.

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Is this true even when attacked by non-artillery units?

They probably do, but not if attacked by an artillery unit. For that matter, higher altitude artillery doesnt get the altitude bonus when attacked by lower atltitude artillery either.

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That's because they're not really there.

But they do cost energy to maintain so they are there...

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I thought I fixed this.  Savegame please?  (Although note that to build 2 satellites you'd need a huge amount of production to finish one and then build the entirety of the second.)

Load one of the previous saves i posted and try using the scenario editor to boost mineral production at one of the bases or give the base tons of left over minerals. Build one satellite and leave nothing else in the game. Only one satellite will get built, but if you queue multiple satellites, you can build multiples of them in a single turn.

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No, it'll make it less useful because you don't need it as often.

Its less useful already because instead of actually going for higher levels of support, its much easier to just spam mostly clean reactor units. You dont have to worry about moving units from one side of the map to the other to change their home bases either. At support 0 you can only have a garrison and former before you start taking mineral penalties and going police state is only useful in the early game or unless you can hit support 3 where you can get up 16 units free per base (with hab complex + ascetics). Even 4 free units per base is pretty much nothing considering how many formers you need at that stage plus air and naval units. Sure, clean reactor units are expensive, but so is having 1/4th of your base minerals taken up by support.

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No, as the default is that air units can't get it, so that's the "fixed" version and anything else is a mod.

Uh isnt the default clearly bugged? I mean the game clearly says that air units should be able to get it, yet they cant.

Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on October 05, 2014, 03:24:30 PM
Not sure why i would want that. Every worker gives me 2 minerals/2 energy from a hybrid forest before bonuses. By the time i get access to advanced specialists, the game is pretty much over and its way too late to start a lengthy terraforming process.


So if you want to make farm/solar more powerful in comparison to forests, maybe you should mod so that hybrid forest isn't available until later (on par with advanced specialists) and the game lasts longer.

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So lets say you have a energy bank, tree farm and hybrid forest at this stage giving a total of 150% to econ and a network node and research hospital giving 100% to labs. That engineer is giving you a total of 7.5 econ and 4 labs. A worker on a hybrid forest would give you 3 nutrients, 2 minerals, 3.5 energy and 3 labs.


You need not run 50/50, you know...

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In terms of rush buying stuff, both are equal (the equivalent of 7.5 energy)


Energy has other uses too, such as probe team actions, and of course it can be used to rush buy at a base other than where it was produced.

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but the engineer has 1 more lab. This assumes no energy lost to inefficiency.


And no commerce.

However, you're assuming that the population is fixed; with varying nutrient outputs between farm/enricher and forest, and hard pop booming (or hab domes) it need not be.

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Also switching from the auto-selected empaths to engineers constantly is annoying.


Doesn't have to be done that often, though.

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I did luck out in my current game and managed to find a base spot which was pretty high, so i tried solar collectors. The problems with it were that it took more than twice as long to terraform and was much more micro intensive and since i was getitng low food from arid tiles (and had no space for condensors), i had to rely on pop booming to grow the base. Also for it to be optimal i would need to leave a one tile layer of echelon mirrors beyond the base radius, which is not always possile due to map placement of resources, etc.


It is a harder method.

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Relying on a rush buying strategy instead of minerals also created a micromanagement nightmare since you have to rush buy everything instead of queing a bunch of facilities and letting the base build them.


You could always get some of each...

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Yea i think it would help if the base turns were lowered, but allowing people to drill to aquifer adjacent to rivers allows you to essentially "fix" rivers that decide to flow somewhere totally unexpected or for some reason, makes a land drier, as well as auto placed rivers with bad flows. It also lets you fix rivers that have gone haywire after terrain elevation changes.


True; it's a possible future request, then.

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Ah i see, i was playing as morgan and had +4 economy, so that might have been why...it wasnt mentioned in the datalinks that the economy SE lowered the cost to corner the global energy market.


But it is in the wiki (http://alphacentauri2.info/wiki/Economic_Victory) that commerce affects it.

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It seems that you still need a road if you put a mine in a mineral bonus tile though?


Indeed; otherwise you're limited to 1+1 instead of 2+1.

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I mean that any specialists still wont count as talents for the purpose of golden ages even with drones rule 8.


Technically true, but with rule 8 you can get "virtual talents" which have the same effect.

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I meant that without scient's patch and only your patch + the official patch, i was getitng lots of game breaking glitches like mouse cursor suddenly not responding, etc.


And I found that strange.

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I didnt try kyrub's patch because it was mared for AC and not AX.


He has one for AX as well.

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Okay but what is the point of having a land based gun bonus vs naval?


Elevation and stability give an advantage in artillery, and from a gameplay perspective because it's more specialized.

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It makes it pointless to use naval artillery since, IIRC, one land based gun can take on 3 naval guns of the same strength with ease


I find that hard to believe.  But yes, if you want artillery and mobility isn't an issue, land-based is better.

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It doesnt even make sense realism wise because naval ships can easily mount higher calibre guns.


I think it's assumed that the total firepower is the same across all chasses.

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By default its super easy to make a base immune to sea invasions. Just stick a few cheap infantry artillery units in there to prevent naval bombardment plus AAA to take care of air units. The enemy wont have any way to soften up defenses before attacking head on into naval yard + tachyon fields.


That sort of thing is how invading a prepared base is supposed to be.  Hard-to-take bases makes for a longer and more interesting game.

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Not sure how it goes for everyone else, but my bases typically have one garrison + one former in the early game. If theres a war i try to have a rover as a quick response unit, plus a artillery unit to defend against bombards and when the enemy gets air power, at least two interceptors per front line base. Thats a lot of minerals for the bare essential defence force.


Not if the rover, artillery, and interceptors are only for front line bases and there aren't that many of them.

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Considering how slow infantry formers are, im often tempted to get a lot more to speed things up even with weather paradigm. Then factor in sea formers and a few naval units for coastal defence and you can have a base with 6+ minerals gone to support which is pretty significant.


Significant but not crippling unless there's effectively a real "limit" of clean minerals (as opposed to going 20 minerals over clean minerals and still being able to handle it).

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Another annoying thing about support is that you usaully have a base good for producing units but want it supported by another base, and there doesnt seem to be any way to do that other than produce the unit and painstakingly move it to another base, change the home base, then move it back to the frontline. Its much easier to not worry about that with clean reactors (or maxing out on SE support).


Why wouldn't your high-mineral bases be the best for producing units?

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Well they are just two different types of plant life in the same tile surrounding a monolith.


No, fungus is related to monoliths in that they're both based on high-end Progenitor tech.

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Its just annoying that you can end up with hybrid forests that are better than monoliths but still get the lower monolith yield.


True, and possibly a future target for changes.

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That doesnt make sense because in the first turn, i had 42 minerals go towards the secret project. In the next, i assigned a expensive supply needlejet to the secret project. So what the game should have done is assign 42 minerals from the first turn towards the secret project, fill up the remainder from the supply needlejet, then carry over whatever is left from the needlejet to the biology lab (and those minerals were produced this turn).


No, it most certainly should not have done that, as applying supply units to facilities that way is extremely exploitative.

When I said "this turn", I meant from the base's own production.

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Is there a way to make it permanently active then?


It's a possible future project.

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Also i noticed that if you raise a sea tile with a bonus resource to land level, the bonus resource will vanish.


I think that's because bonus resources are calculated differently for land and sea squares; there are probably times when raising a tile to land will create a bonus resource.

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Im pretty sure it affects all factions, try changing yang's immunity from EFFIC to GROWTH, i did that and i was still getting negative growth modifiers from going GREEN.


Works for me; you get 0 GROWTH instead of the expected -1.

(Immunity doesn't prevent negative modifiers to cancel out positive modifiers, it just means the total can't be below 0.)

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Any idea if theres a list of modifiers that the AI get posted somewhere?


Probably somewhere; you can search the internet as well as me.

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Yea the problem is that theres no reason to use interceptors when they cant get their SAM bonus when intercepting.


They can still fight better than formers...

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At the very least they should get the SAM bonus, that way you would need to use your own interceptors to clear enemy interceptors. Right now its easier to just build normal needlejets and zerg the enemy airbase instead.


As I said, there are changes slated for the future.

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They probably do, but not if attacked by an artillery unit.


That's because it's considered a duel, where both use offense.

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For that matter, higher altitude artillery doesnt get the altitude bonus when attacked by lower atltitude artillery either.


It most certainly does (assuming there's a full category of altitude difference).

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But they do cost energy to maintain so they are there...


No, I mean the one from the project isn't really there.

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Load one of the previous saves i posted and try using the scenario editor to boost mineral production at one of the bases or give the base tons of left over minerals. Build one satellite and leave nothing else in the game. Only one satellite will get built, but if you queue multiple satellites, you can build multiples of them in a single turn.


You appear to be correct (except for the tons of leftover minerals, which never counts toward the next item, which is how it should be.)  I'm putting it on my list to fix this.

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Its less useful already because instead of actually going for higher levels of support, its much easier to just spam mostly clean reactor units.


Not necessarily; remember, if all you build is units, having to build all clean units is as bad as -5 INDUSTRY (or maybe -3 or -4 if you've got another expensive ability too).  In such a situation (which is extreme, but probably not that far from the truth in the sort of situations where you'd get Police State or Power), +SUPPORT could be quite useful.

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and going police state is only useful in the early game or unless you can hit support 3 where you can get up 16 units free per base (with hab complex + ascetics).


Or if you're conquering a lot of bases and need the police units to keep them stable (which is also the case where transferring to new bases is easiest, as they're there anyway.)

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Even 4 free units per base is pretty much nothing considering how many formers you need at that stage plus air and naval units.


How many formers per base do you need?  What are you building, and how fast do your bases grow?

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Sure, clean reactor units are expensive, but so is having 1/4th of your base minerals taken up by support.


True; keeping a standing army is expensive no matter what.

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Uh isnt the default clearly bugged? I mean the game clearly says that air units should be able to get it, yet they cant.


Or maybe the datalinks entry is bugged.  Or maybe the datalinks entry is referring to what happens if you do mod.

If you want, you can start a thread about the matter, and if there's a strong consensus that the current method is a bug I can change it in the next patch.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: TarMinyatur on October 05, 2014, 08:03:17 PM
Minor inconsistency with the display of Prototype Cost:

When designing units in the Workshop, all chassis types will show a +50% prototype cost, even if you set Land cost to 100%, Sea to 25%, and Air to 10%, for example in alphax.txt's rules.

However, when selecting units for the build queue, the correct prototype adjustment to minerals is displayed.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on October 05, 2014, 11:44:42 PM
Minor inconsistency with the display of Prototype Cost:

When designing units in the Workshop, all chassis types will show a +50% prototype cost, even if you set Land cost to 100%, Sea to 25%, and Air to 10%, for example in alphax.txt's rules.

However, when selecting units for the build queue, the correct prototype adjustment to minerals is displayed.

Good point (though I'm fairly certain I did not introduce it); I'll put it on the list to fix.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on October 06, 2014, 10:00:44 PM
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So if you want to make farm/solar more powerful in comparison to forests, maybe you should mod so that hybrid forest isn't available until later (on par with advanced specialists) and the game lasts longer.

I think the game lasts long enough as it is, the early game takes wayyyy too long IMHO, with serious shortages of everything. I would say the problem is more that the other terraforming options are underpowered, not that hybrid forests are overpowered. Hybrid forests do have a huge cost to build too (although thats usually a one time cost).

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Energy has other uses too, such as probe team actions, and of course it can be used to rush buy at a base other than where it was produced.

True, though typically this is only useful when you have most facilities built in a base and dont need to build any units at all (which is pretty rare unless you are playing drones, who can build stuff fast enough for that).

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It is a harder method.

Its not just harder, its impractical. Even against the AI, spamming solar collectors/echelon mirrors will leave you behind compared to you if you did mostly forests + boreholes. I cant imagine people in MP giving you the time you need to do all the mass raising and terraforming either.

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You could always get some of each...

But the way the game works, if you are going to go energy focused, its best to go all the way due to % boosts and because having some minerals isnt going to do much, unless you hit the CM cap. The one place where minerals are definately superior to rush buying is with units, since units dont use a simple formalue of 2x mineral cost for the hurry cost. It gets ridiculously expensive to rush buy units, which makes sense as you dont want someone rush buying a massive defence army quickly.

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But it is in the wiki that commerce affects it.

Oh, thanks. How does one edit the ingame datalinks anyway? I thought it would be in helpx.txt, but i cant find certain portions like "Ecology (Revised)".

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Technically true, but with rule 8 you can get "virtual talents" which have the same effect.

The virtual talents do not appear to work though, i have it set to rule 8 but with very large (30+) bases where more than half of the pop are forced to be specialists, i do not get a golden age. See test.sav, more than enough psych for infinite talents, but couldnt go into golden age because of too many specialists.

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Technically true, but with rule 8 you can get "virtual talents" which have the same effect.

Oh, you mean the nov 2012 one in the downloads section? Since its so outdated im not sure if testing it would make a difference...

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Elevation and stability give an advantage in artillery, and from a gameplay perspective because it's more specialized.

Hmm you are right in that naval units dont have to use a ability slot to bombard. Im not sure if they should in that case, my main issue is that a 50% bonus for land vs naval is huge...given that land artillery is many times cheaper than naval units anyway.

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That sort of thing is how invading a prepared base is supposed to be.  Hard-to-take bases makes for a longer and more interesting game.

The game is specifically designed to favor attacking vs defending though. If you look at land bases, there are always options to take one filled to the brim with units...in the very worst case situation, you can out artillery it even if it has perimeter + tachyon. That option isnt available for sea bases or when launching an amphibious invasion because of the 50% artillery bonus that land units get. This is more of an issue in MP where a human player may actually make a sea base nearly imprenetable. But even in SP, if the AI puts land based artillery near a coastal base, this basically grinds warfare to a halt till you get carrier decks, which are pretty late game.

Theres also a faction balance issue here because if you are someone like miriam and need to get across the water to get at, say, university, you are going to get stuck. Any faction without a research penalty will easily out-tech you and they dont need to spend much on military because of how easy it is for land artillery to take out naval ones.

The fact that land vs naval (and vice-versa) artillery duels only last two rounds also makes it very easy for someone to stall a invasion forever. Lets say it takes 3 rounds of combat to kill a artillery unit this way, thats more than enough time to feed in reinforcing artillery faster than you can kill. I think i will start a topic on this in the general discussion forum...

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Not if the rover, artillery, and interceptors are only for front line bases and there aren't that many of them.

Somewhat true, depending on battle lines. I find that at bare minimum, against the AI, you need at least two interceptors for a front line base, although ive had to use up to 4 sometimes to cover for the refueling interceptors.

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Significant but not crippling unless there's effectively a real "limit" of clean minerals (as opposed to going 20 minerals over clean minerals and still being able to handle it).

But it is crippling in the early game when the problem is getting enough minerals in the first place. A size 4 base is only going to make about 10 minerals or so, thats not even enough to hit the default CM limit. A size 7 might hit the limit without needing a borehole, although i typically find that getting enough minerals to get there is VERY difficult unless you have kelp farms or start somewhere like the monsoon jungle. If you dont have any rainy tiles, which are pretty rare even if you have the map generator se tto 100 million miles/dense cloud, hitting cap 7 without kelp farms is going to be nearly impossible.

With a support of 0, just having enough units to terraform and defend yourself is going to use up a quarter or more minerals per base, let alone trying to mount the most basic of offensives (Say, 4 units). It gets worse if you go demo. Ironically, demo, which is for peaceful factions to grow, can strangle your bases as formers use up minerals too.

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Why wouldn't your high-mineral bases be the best for producing units?

They are, but if you are sending them to other bases to change their home base, it can easily add 4+ turns before they can get to the front lines. That assumes a full road network, since an infantry unit can only move 3 tiles by road. This wouldnt be a problem if you could set the home base without needing to be physically in the base, which makes sense since you only need to call up the base and tell them to send supplies to the unit. The unit doesnt need to go in person. But i dont know if its possible to mod that...

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No, it most certainly should not have done that, as applying supply units to facilities that way is extremely exploitative.

When I said "this turn", I meant from the base's own production.

Im confused, i thought using supply crawlers to speed up secret projects is one of the key uses of the unit (which is why it gets the special popup screen)? How would it be exploitative?

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I think that's because bonus resources are calculated differently for land and sea squares; there are probably times when raising a tile to land will create a bonus resource.

I thought the game set the bonus resources when the map is first generated, not when the elevation is changed from land to sea or vice-versa?

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Works for me; you get 0 GROWTH instead of the expected -1.

(Immunity doesn't prevent negative modifiers to cancel out positive modifiers, it just means the total can't be below 0.)

Ah i see. That was the problem then.

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That's because it's considered a duel, where both use offense.

That does make offense modifiers overpowered though, i believe the intent was to make caretakers a defence oriented version of usurpers, and its a balance issue if their 25% defence bonus doesnt work for stuff like defending against enemy artillery.

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It most certainly does (assuming there's a full category of altitude difference).

Hmm you are right, i guess i must have seen the combat window incorrectly.

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No, I mean the one from the project isn't really there.

Well maybe they should count for the progenitor energy grid bonus? If they cost energy to maintain, they should provide a grid bonus, especially since its weird that building them without the secret projects will contribute to the grid bonus, but not if they are obtained from a secret project.

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You appear to be correct (except for the tons of leftover minerals, which never counts toward the next item, which is how it should be.)  I'm putting it on my list to fix this.

Strange, i can get a base to build more than one satellite a turn assuming they are queued. Did you try turning on the "carry over unlimited minerals" option?

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Not necessarily; remember, if all you build is units, having to build all clean units is as bad as -5 INDUSTRY (or maybe -3 or -4 if you've got another expensive ability too).  In such a situation (which is extreme, but probably not that far from the truth in the sort of situations where you'd get Police State or Power), +SUPPORT could be quite useful.

True, but clean reactors pay for itself quite quickly in many cases. Mainly for units that you will keep around for a lot time (like garrisons and formers, or if you are on a continent by yourself and teching with no real opposition). For example a 1-3-1 garrison costs 18 minerals. Adding clean reactors bumpst he cost up by 50% to 27 minerals. So the clean reactors will pay for itself within only 9 turns, and a game can last 200+ turns easily unless you manage to get an early economic or conquest win somehow. If its for stuff that will die really quickly, like if you have a really intense battle near your base, then no it wouldnt be worth it. But in single player where you have most units stick around for 10+ turns, then yea it is.

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Or if you're conquering a lot of bases and need the police units to keep them stable (which is also the case where transferring to new bases is easiest, as they're there anyway.)

True, although i find that even without any extra police units, its very easy to keep a newly conquered base under control. Typically the base size is small and i can just assign extra doctors anyway. But i usually dont bother to take over a base as the AI is very bad at base placement, and its better to obliterate then resettle (also far off bases have massive energy penalties). But i guess it could make a difference in MP.

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How many formers per base do you need?  What are you building, and how fast do your bases grow?

Well with pop booming or cloning vats, they usually grow fast enough that the only real limiter is how many minerals/energy i can pump into facilities like tree farm/hab complex and how fast i can drop terrain improvements. Ive been leaning more towards rover formers lately, even though they are much more expensive to build, they are more future proof and being able to move then terraform the same turn really saves a LOT of time. But once i get pop booms going or am playing Lal, i typically need at least 2 formers per incomplete base at bare minimum. This excludes the formers you need for drill to aquifer, raising land, creating bore holes for crawlers, creating new roads/tubes, etc. At bare minimum i would use 2 formers tag teaming for stuff like boreholes as it takes too long otherwise. Coastal bases also have one sea former each at bare minimum until they fill up their coastal slots, but i usually have one sea former making additional tidal harnesses if i have a coastal HQ (for energy crawling).

So that can easily add up to 10+ minerals in non-combat units. Basically imagine if you need to pay support costs for probes/crawlers, thats how many minerals formers can eat up. I dont know if people in MP make more or less formers though, but since i use mostly forests, you are going to need a lot more formers if you do condensors, raising more than a few patches of land and farms + solar collectors.

Questions :

-Do you have any idea why a river flowing through a tile can make that tile arid? Seems like a bug, isnt it supposed to increase the rainfall level in any tiles the river flows through?

Issues :

-Very green units only receive a 12% penalty when defending, whereas they receive a 25% penalty when attacking.

-Several bugs with the scenario editor. You can only select the first unit in a tile using the editor if it does not belong to your faction. You can right click - select/edit unit for the other units in the tile but it will not work. It only works if you they are at a enemy base and you go into the base screen and select them from there. This also means that you can only delete the first enemy unit in a tile and not any others.

-The UI is bugged and will not let you edit data for needlejets (see screenshot).

-Unit name when editing units frequently gets bugged, see screenshot.

-You do not get a "the odds are heavily against us" warning even if the odds are more than 4-1 against you (in this case, 4.5 vs 18 did not trigger the warning). The warning does trigger if the odds are even worse though, but im not sure at what level.

-Air units will always defend against enemy air units, even if a better defender is available (e.g. Elite AAA plasma garrison and a very green 1-1 interceptor is attacked by a missle needlejet, the game will have the interceptor defend instead of the AAA garrison (this assumes the interceptor does not scramble)

-Locusts can be attacked without SAM, and they will always defend against enemy air units even if a better defender is available. E.G. If a locust attacks a square with a very green needlejet and a elite AAA 8r garrison, the game will still pit the locust vs needlejet.

-Psi units always count as on "open ground" when bombarded by naval units at sea.

-Naval transports bombarded at sea will get the open ground defence bonus, including all loaded troops. Exception : Unless bombarded by a spore launcher and loaded spore launchers also do not get the open defence bonus (they will never get it infact, even if they are on a clear land tile). For some reason, sometimes a transport may not get the open grounds defence bonus at sea...i cant figure out why. Check out test2.sav, the transport at 16,30 does not get the open defence bonus but the one next to it at 17, 31 will ,even though they are both on open sea tiles.

-If a ground unit below 1000m elevation on land bombards a loaded sea transport, it will get a 25% altitude bonus vs loaded ground units, but not the sea transport itself (they also will not get any altitude bonuses vs non-combat sea units, even if bombarding from 1000+ meters land). Spore launchers will not get the altitude bonus vs either loaded ground units or non-combat sea units. Ground artillery will get the altitude bonus even if they are bombarding from a sea transport (but not spore launchers). Neither spore launchers or ground artillery may get altitude bonuses vs armored sea transports (and presumably formers).
 
-Naval bombardment vs enemy naval combat units is weapon vs weapon, except the defenders armor strength is shown. E.G. 6-3 foil attacked by naval bombardment will show Plasma steel armor, but actual combat strength will be 6 + modifiers.

-Air units with resonance weapons and empath song get no bonus when attacking locusts, but ground and naval units get the bonuses when attacking locusts.

-Locusts may be attacked by non-SAM units.

-Empath song and resonance weapons give no bonuses when bombarding psi units. They also give no bonus when engaging spore launchers in an artillery duel.

-You can equip artillery units with nerve gas pods and you get a popup asking if you want to use them when bombarding a non-native unit. If you use them, you get sanctions as per normal but you do not get the 50% nerve gas bonus. You will get the 50% attack bonus if you are attacking in an artillery duel though.

-When bombarding psi units at sea (including loaded psi units) the game will show the attacker's weapon as "Psi:1" but the actual combat strength used will be the weapon's strength (e.g. 6 for a missle launcher). However psi units at sea will defend with the psi value of 1 and probably get one shotted by anything above particle impactors (huge problem, means that demon boil sealurks and isles can be easily one shotted by low morale naval ships). Exception : When bombarding spore launchers on a transport, the attacker will use the psi value of 3 vs 2 instead.

-Artillery units on a sea transport can make artillery attacks, but not engage in artillery duels with other loaded artillery units.

-All units (including air units) stationed at an airbase get the 50% open grounds bonus when bombarded by artillery.

-SAM units do not get the 100% air to air bonus when attacked by non-SAM air units. E.G. SAM chopper is at a base and gets attacked by a non-SAM air unit, it will not get the air to air bonus.

-Tachyon fields confer a 100% defence bonus instead of 75% as stated in the datalinks.

-Base defences (tachyon fields, perimeter defences, etc) do not function in artillery duels.

-Soporofic gas pods do nothing in artillery duels. They also do nothing when a SAM air unit with soporofic gas pods attacks another SAM air unit (but they work if attacking a non-SAM air unit).

-AAA units get the tracking bonus vs attacking locusts, but SAM air units do not get it when attacking locusts.

-Believers 25% attack bonus does not apply to the following :

Any form of psi combat, including your own mindworms vs enemy scout patrols

Artillery duels (including both ground and naval)

Artillery bombardment

SAM air units attacking another SAM air unit (not via scrambling to intercept)

For comparison the usurper attack bonus applies to most of these scenarios.

-Huge bug : Land based gun bonus applies even if for naval units bombarding enemy naval units, see screenshot. The bonus also doesnt apply when a land based artillery starts an artillery duel with a sea unit, only when a sea unit attacks a sea unit or land based artillery unit.

-Conventional missles have a flat 18 attack strength for some reason? See screenshot.

Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on October 06, 2014, 10:01:34 PM
Conventional missle screensot.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Nexii on October 06, 2014, 11:42:19 PM
I would say that energy based strategies are more powerful in MP.  The AI wars very easily, whereas a human player will value commerce more.  Commerce can double or triple the base energy of a base.  Against AI, minerals are stronger as the AI doesn't war all that well.  Also in a FFA MP game, you will not want to war lightly.  The risk is high unless you catch them teching/buildering.  In which case conquer can be worth it.  Games on smaller maps or with Spoils of War will be more aggressive.

I think non-combat units requiring support is fine.  The issue is more having to make so many formers per base relative to military unit count.  Take down terraform times and you won't have to make 8-10 formers per base any more.  Long terraform times are a big reason as to why the early game is slow (curvilinear tech cost, and high early building costs also being big causes).  ~5-10 FT/square like in Civ2 really cuts it down from some of the silly default values.

Also despite the -2 SUP, Democracy was by far the best of the default SE choices.  It is only -1 mineral a turn compared to 0 SUP.  Small bases can make a lot more minerals even early if you prioritize boreholes.  3-4 boreholes per base and then crawl in N. 

I do agree that the 'some of each' terraform strategy tends to be a bit more suboptimal, but more due to how echelons multiply than CMs.  High mineral bases can get eco facilities.  Though the default ecodamage variables aren't that good - FM typically wins out for economic SE.  Wealth+GA can also give the +2 ECON though.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on October 07, 2014, 01:27:25 AM
I think the game lasts long enough as it is, the early game takes wayyyy too long IMHO, with serious shortages of everything.

True, perhaps the early game should be sped up and the late game slowed down.

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I would say the problem is more that the other terraforming options are underpowered, not that hybrid forests are overpowered. Hybrid forests do have a huge cost to build too (although thats usually a one time cost).

Though as you said they provide economy and psych too.

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True, though typically this is only useful when you have most facilities built in a base and dont need to build any units at all (which is pretty rare unless you are playing drones, who can build stuff fast enough for that).

Or are trying to get a new base up and running quickly...

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Its not just harder, its impractical. Even against the AI, spamming solar collectors/echelon mirrors will leave you behind compared to you if you did mostly forests + boreholes.

Long-term, I'm not so sure about that.  Nutrients become quite powerful in the late game (earlier with mods), and farm+enricher+condenser is unquestionably the best for nutrients.  (Even with condensers nerfed somewhat, it's still enough to give a large advantage over forests+boreholes if not for requiring higher former time.)

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I cant imagine people in MP giving you the time you need to do all the mass raising and terraforming either.

It might depend on your defensive capabilities, and of course whether there's a third player would would just love for you and your rival to weaken each other fighting...

Now, there are issues with those aspects...but that's not a core issue with terraforming.

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But the way the game works, if you are going to go energy focused, its best to go all the way due to % boosts and because having some minerals isnt going to do much, unless you hit the CM cap.

It'll mean you don't have to rush buy as often, which was the point at hand.

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Oh, thanks. How does one edit the ingame datalinks anyway? I thought it would be in helpx.txt, but i cant find certain portions like "Ecology (Revised)".

It's spread out among several text files; conceptsx probably has the ones that you're not finding in helpx.

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The virtual talents do not appear to work though, i have it set to rule 8 but with very large (30+) bases where more than half of the pop are forced to be specialists, i do not get a golden age. See test.sav, more than enough psych for infinite talents, but couldnt go into golden age because of too many specialists.

I found the problem, and fixed it; because there are several major bugfixes that I need to do, I'll put up 3.2 once I've finished them all, and include it in that.  (Unfortunately, I will be unable to work on the patch the end of this week or any of next week, so it may be a bit later until it's actually ready if I can't fix them tonight.)

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Oh, you mean the nov 2012 one in the downloads section? Since its so outdated im not sure if testing it would make a difference...

I meant the thing whose not-working is the bug you just found and I just fixed.

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Hmm you are right in that naval units dont have to use a ability slot to bombard. Im not sure if they should in that case, my main issue is that a 50% bonus for land vs naval is huge...given that land artillery is many times cheaper than naval units anyway.

On the other hand, naval is more mobile, and can attack non-artillery (vs. other ships) as well.

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The game is specifically designed to favor attacking vs defending though.

No, it's specifically designed to favor attacking in the field, but defending in bases.  The viable-in-most-cases options to take one filled to the brim with units are, while not quite bugs, unintended flaws in the game.

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But even in SP, if the AI puts land based artillery near a coastal base, this basically grinds warfare to a halt till you get carrier decks, which are pretty late game.

Not to a halt; you can always attack formers/crawlers, go after less-well-defended bases, or simply be a more military-focused faction (from faction ID or social engineering.)  It does limit warfare, which is a good thing (since SMAX loses a lot of its depth if it becomes just a war game).

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Theres also a faction balance issue here because if you are someone like miriam and need to get across the water to get at, say, university, you are going to get stuck. Any faction without a research penalty will easily out-tech you and they dont need to spend much on military because of how easy it is for land artillery to take out naval ones.

Can't you just use transports, with warships to escort them?

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The fact that land vs naval (and vice-versa) artillery duels only last two rounds also makes it very easy for someone to stall a invasion forever. Lets say it takes 3 rounds of combat to kill a artillery unit this way, thats more than enough time to feed in reinforcing artillery faster than you can kill.

Except that by the same token, that's more than enough time to land land units from transports.

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Somewhat true, depending on battle lines. I find that at bare minimum, against the AI, you need at least two interceptors for a front line base, although ive had to use up to 4 sometimes to cover for the refueling interceptors.

Even so, front line bases will probably be only a small percentage of your total bases.

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But it is crippling in the early game when the problem is getting enough minerals in the first place.

Yeah, in the early game you shouldn't have tons of formers...but in the early game there are no hybrid forests (and, if you mod so that Environmental Economics isn't needed for 3+ energy, no tree farms either), so you don't need raising and mirrors and condensers to keep farm/solar or farm/mine competitive with forests.

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If you dont have any rainy tiles, which are pretty rare even if you have the map generator se tto 100 million miles/dense cloud, hitting cap 7 without kelp farms is going to be nearly impossible.

No, it's quite easy if you don't go mostly forests.

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They are, but if you are sending them to other bases to change their home base, it can easily add 4+ turns before they can get to the front lines.

Why are you sending them to other bases, if they're already homed to the bases that can afford to support them?

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This wouldnt be a problem if you could set the home base without needing to be physically in the base, which makes sense since you only need to call up the base and tell them to send supplies to the unit. The unit doesnt need to go in person. But i dont know if its possible to mod that...

It would be possible, but it doesn't seem a high priority to me, as you can just spread things out by having each major base produce a few units to fill out its free support, and have most of the rest be from the high-mineral bases where it's not such a heavy burden.

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Im confused, i thought using supply crawlers to speed up secret projects is one of the key uses of the unit (which is why it gets the special popup screen)? How would it be exploitative?

Because you're trying to use it to speed up a biology lab, which is not a secret project.

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I thought the game set the bonus resources when the map is first generated, not when the elevation is changed from land to sea or vice-versa?

I believe it sets, for each square, "bonus resources on land" and "bonus resources at sea", and they're not necessarily the same.

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That does make offense modifiers overpowered though, i believe the intent was to make caretakers a defence oriented version of usurpers, and its a balance issue if their 25% defence bonus doesnt work for stuff like defending against enemy artillery.

True, but artillery isn't meant to be such a huge part of the game that it becomes a major issue.

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Well maybe they should count for the progenitor energy grid bonus? If they cost energy to maintain, they should provide a grid bonus, especially since its weird that building them without the secret projects will contribute to the grid bonus, but not if they are obtained from a secret project.

You misunderstand: The one from the project is not really there and does not cost energy to maintain or provide a grid bonus, whereas one that is built (even if it is later gotten from a project as well) costs energy to maintain but does provide a grid bonus.

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Strange, i can get a base to build more than one satellite a turn assuming they are queued. Did you try turning on the "carry over unlimited minerals" option?

Yes, and it can build more than one satellite per turn when queued if it has enough production.  But not if you just increase minerals to 1000 but still have only 40 production.

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True, but clean reactors pay for itself quite quickly in many cases. Mainly for units that you will keep around for a lot time (like garrisons and formers, or if you are on a continent by yourself and teching with no real opposition).

Very true, and in that sort of case you generally won't want to focus on SUPPORT; you want SUPPORT when at war.

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Well with pop booming or cloning vats, they usually grow fast enough that the only real limiter is how many minerals/energy i can pump into facilities like tree farm/hab complex and how fast i can drop terrain improvements.

Ah; I think the solution there is to weaken pop booming so they don't grow quite as fast (especially if you're going forest rather than farm/enricher).

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Ive been leaning more towards rover formers lately, even though they are much more expensive to build, they are more future proof and being able to move then terraform the same turn really saves a LOT of time. But once i get pop booms going or am playing Lal, i typically need at least 2 formers per incomplete base at bare minimum. This excludes the formers you need for drill to aquifer, raising land, creating bore holes for crawlers, creating new roads/tubes, etc. At bare minimum i would use 2 formers tag teaming for stuff like boreholes as it takes too long otherwise. Coastal bases also have one sea former each at bare minimum until they fill up their coastal slots, but i usually have one sea former making additional tidal harnesses if i have a coastal HQ (for energy crawling).

So between crawling and pop booming, you don't have enough formers; I don't think crawling and pop booming were intended to be used to that extent.

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-Do you have any idea why a river flowing through a tile can make that tile arid? Seems like a bug, isnt it supposed to increase the rainfall level in any tiles the river flows through?

Raininess computations are complicated and I do not yet know how they work.

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-Very green units only receive a 12% penalty when defending, whereas they receive a 25% penalty when attacking.

Yes, it appears that very green units get a free +1 morale on defense, probably in order to prevent them from being too easy to take over.

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-Several bugs with the scenario editor.

These are not particularly high priority, because they do not affect the primary game.  They are possible future projects, however.

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-You do not get a "the odds are heavily against us" warning even if the odds are more than 4-1 against you (in this case, 4.5 vs 18 did not trigger the warning). The warning does trigger if the odds are even worse though, but im not sure at what level.

This is a decision by the game designers as to when to trigger it, and adjusting warnings is definitely not a high priority.

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-Air units will always defend against enemy air units, even if a better defender is available (e.g. Elite AAA plasma garrison and a very green 1-1 interceptor is attacked by a missle needlejet, the game will have the interceptor defend instead of the AAA garrison (this assumes the interceptor does not scramble)

I'll put it on the list.

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-Locusts can be attacked without SAM, and they will always defend against enemy air units even if a better defender is available. E.G. If a locust attacks a square with a very green needlejet and a elite AAA 8r garrison, the game will still pit the locust vs needlejet.

Being attackable without SAM is intentional, so that they're not too strong early on (as native life forms, they can appear earlier than air if there's heavy ecodamage, and they don't even need fuel.)  The other bug is simply the same as you described before.

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-Psi units always count as on "open ground" when bombarded by naval units at sea.

This is because sea tiles have a rockiness level like land tiles (though it isn't shown and doesn't have many consequences), and if it's not rocky it's considered open ground; the only reason it's psi and unarmed units only is that non-psi units with attack can shoot back and so it's a duel rather than bombardment.

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-Naval transports bombarded at sea will get the open ground defence bonus, including all loaded troops.

See above.  (And spore launchers have some funny rules due to it being psi combat and artillery; bombarding an isle of the deep is not considered psi combat IIRC.)

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For some reason, sometimes a transport may not get the open grounds defence bonus at sea...i cant figure out why.

It depends on the rockiness of the square (which also affects the time taken to build tidal harnesses.)

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-If a ground unit below 1000m elevation on land bombards a loaded sea transport, it will get a 25% altitude bonus vs loaded ground units, but not the sea transport itself (they also will not get any altitude bonuses vs non-combat sea units, even if bombarding from 1000+ meters land).

This is because the altitude bonus is vs. land units only (it's probably supposed to be replaced by the "land based guns" bonus vs. sea units, but that only applies for an artillery duel; if you start a thread about whether it's a bug and the consensus is that it is, I'll put it on my list.  Otherwise it'll probably wait.)

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Spore launchers will not get the altitude bonus vs either loaded ground units or non-combat sea units. Ground artillery will get the altitude bonus even if they are bombarding from a sea transport (but not spore launchers). Neither spore launchers or ground artillery may get altitude bonuses vs armored sea transports (and presumably formers).

Basically, you only get it if you're a land unit and you're bombarding a land unit.
 
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-Naval bombardment vs enemy naval combat units is weapon vs weapon, except the defenders armor strength is shown. E.G. 6-3 foil attacked by naval bombardment will show Plasma steel armor, but actual combat strength will be 6 + modifiers.

I suspect that it's the armor being shown that is the bug, and that's not going to be a high priority, but if the consensus is otherwise I can fix that too.

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-Air units with resonance weapons and empath song get no bonus when attacking locusts, but ground and naval units get the bonuses when attacking locusts.

This is because an air unit attacking another air unit with SAM (except maybe in a base, I'm not sure) is considered a dogfight, which has different rules.

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-Locusts may be attacked by non-SAM units.

Appears to be intended.

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-Empath song and resonance weapons give no bonuses when bombarding psi units. They also give no bonus when engaging spore launchers in an artillery duel.

Artillery also has different rules.

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-You can equip artillery units with nerve gas pods and you get a popup asking if you want to use them when bombarding a non-native unit. If you use them, you get sanctions as per normal but you do not get the 50% nerve gas bonus. You will get the 50% attack bonus if you are attacking in an artillery duel though.

Probably also because artillery has different rules (and when I rework combat, many of these things will probably change at least in the alternate forms); the ability to use it to no effect is a bug, but not such a high-priority one.

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-When bombarding psi units at sea (including loaded psi units) the game will show the attacker's weapon as "Psi:1" but the actual combat strength used will be the weapon's strength (e.g. 6 for a missle launcher). However psi units at sea will defend with the psi value of 1 and probably get one shotted by anything above particle impactors (huge problem, means that demon boil sealurks and isles can be easily one shotted by low morale naval ships). Exception : When bombarding spore launchers on a transport, the attacker will use the psi value of 3 vs 2 instead.

Known, discussed, will be changeable in a future mod.

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-Artillery units on a sea transport can make artillery attacks, but not engage in artillery duels with other loaded artillery units.

As far as I can tell, they can't make artillery attacks.

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-All units (including air units) stationed at an airbase get the 50% open grounds bonus when bombarded by artillery.

That would be because they're not in flight and therefore get the open ground bonus...

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-SAM units do not get the 100% air to air bonus when attacked by non-SAM air units. E.G. SAM chopper is at a base and gets attacked by a non-SAM air unit, it will not get the air to air bonus.

This is because it's defending on the ground, not in the air.

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-Tachyon fields confer a 100% defence bonus instead of 75% as stated in the datalinks.

It's a bug in the datalinks; I'll fix it.

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-Base defences (tachyon fields, perimeter defences, etc) do not function in artillery duels.

-Soporofic gas pods do nothing in artillery duels. They also do nothing when a SAM air unit with soporofic gas pods attacks another SAM air unit (but they work if attacking a non-SAM air unit).

Artillery and dogfights follow different rules.

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-AAA units get the tracking bonus vs attacking locusts, but SAM air units do not get it when attacking locusts.

The SAM bonus does not apply against other SAM units.

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-Believers 25% attack bonus does not apply to the following :

Any form of psi combat, including your own mindworms vs enemy scout patrols

Artillery duels (including both ground and naval)

Artillery bombardment

SAM air units attacking another SAM air unit (not via scrambling to intercept)

For comparison the usurper attack bonus applies to most of these scenarios.

This is known, and not conclusively determined to be a bug.  Providing the option to enable it is a possible future mod.

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-Huge bug : Land based gun bonus applies even if for naval units bombarding enemy naval units, see screenshot. The bonus also doesnt apply when a land based artillery starts an artillery duel with a sea unit, only when a sea unit attacks a sea unit or land based artillery unit.

That's a bug alright; it'll be fixed in 3.2.

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-Conventional missles have a flat 18 attack strength for some reason? See screenshot.

By default, they get +50% to strength rather than the described reactor-based change.  This is moddable.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: SenniTreborius on October 07, 2014, 03:36:10 AM
Yitzi, how stable is it to change the screen resolution to something like 1024 x 720 in your mode. (Yes, still plugging away at getting OBS to work).
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on October 07, 2014, 03:52:38 AM
Yitzi, how stable is it to change the screen resolution to something like 1024 x 720 in your mode. (Yes, still plugging away at getting OBS to work).

I can think of no possible reason that it would be any less stable than under Kyrub's patch, which is probably the same stability as the original.

Of course, I can also think of no reason that alt-tab should fail to work with my patch...
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: SenniTreborius on October 07, 2014, 09:47:51 AM
Yitzi, how stable is it to change the screen resolution to something like 1024 x 720 in your mode. (Yes, still plugging away at getting OBS to work).

I can think of no possible reason that it would be any less stable than under Kyrub's patch, which is probably the same stability as the original.

Of course, I can also think of no reason that alt-tab should fail to work with my patch...
I believe that it may have something to do with having OBS installed. In that I can't Alt-Tab out of even unmodded AC. Will investigate.
Edit: Actually its the gog version, one has to Ctl-Alt-Tab.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on October 13, 2014, 09:56:22 AM
Just a quick update regarding some more bugs i noticed, will respond in more detail when i have time.

-Obtaining units with unresearched tech through gifting or subversion seems pretty buggy. The design is added to your worksho so you can make units with armor/weapons/etc that you dont have access to normally, but you still need to make a prototype. Even if you have access to the tech, you still need to prototype it even though you already have at least one unit with the new weapon/armor/etc around.

E.G. You have missle launchers but not yet prototyped. Someone gifts you a unit with missle launchers, but it doesnt count as prototyping it so you still need to prototype it. Thats weird.

Also i cant seem to do reverse engineering anymore, isnt it just disbanding the unit in a base?

-Im having some weird bugs with drones in my latest game, not sure if its drones rule 8 related or not. I have +1 talent from the human genome project but my HQ is still rioting every turn even though drones and talents are both equal. See test.sav.

Also the number of drones in my other bases is unequal for some reason. If you compare the hive and the great collective, you can see the hive starts off with more drones for some reason but the great collective is turning workers into talents via psych (which resulted in more drones) but the hive isnt bothering to do that. If every 2 psych = 1 less drone, then i should be getting -3 drones at both bases but that doesnt appear to be true...see b.sav and screenshot. They both have the same number of drone reducing facilities.

-Mouse cursor near a volcano mouth appears to be very buggy. The game constantly thinks you are clicking on the volcano mouth when in reality you are clicking the tiles around the mouth. This often results in failed artillery bombardments that hit the volcano mouth when you are trying to hit something near it instead. See screenshot, im trying to bombard the morgan base next to the mouth but it keeps hitting the volcano mouth instead. Even if you do right click - long range fire the game will force you to bombard the volcano mouth randomly.

Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on October 13, 2014, 10:10:23 AM
Also noticed that the growth bonus doesnt appear to be calculated normally.

From size 6 to 7 and 0 GROWTH, it takes 64 nutrients. At 20% growth, its 57 nutrients and at 40%, 43 nutrients. I dont know how this is calculated because 80% of 64 nutrients is obviously not 57 nutrients...
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Lord Avalon on October 13, 2014, 10:14:56 AM
-Obtaining units with unresearched tech through gifting or subversion seems pretty buggy. The design is added to your worksho so you can make units with armor/weapons/etc that you dont have access to normally, but you still need to make a prototype. Even if you have access to the tech, you still need to prototype it even though you already have at least one unit with the new weapon/armor/etc around.

E.G. You have missle launchers but not yet prototyped. Someone gifts you a unit with missle launchers, but it doesnt count as prototyping it so you still need to prototype it. Thats weird.

Why is that weird? You were given the unit, but you don't know how to build it yourself - that's why you need to prototype it.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on October 13, 2014, 03:51:10 PM
Just a quick update regarding some more bugs i noticed, will respond in more detail when i have time.

-Obtaining units with unresearched tech through gifting or subversion seems pretty buggy. The design is added to your worksho so you can make units with armor/weapons/etc that you dont have access to normally, but you still need to make a prototype. Even if you have access to the tech, you still need to prototype it even though you already have at least one unit with the new weapon/armor/etc around.

As Lord Avalon said, this makes sense.

In fact, I think it would make more sense for it not to end up in your workshop at all until you are able to build it normally; accomplishing that without problems involving the original owner retiring the design would require some doing, though.

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Also i cant seem to do reverse engineering anymore, isnt it just disbanding the unit in a base?

Reverse engineering refers to the exploit where you take that unit with missile launchers and change the chassis, armor, reactor, and/or abilities to get new units despite not having the tech for missile launchers.

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-Im having some weird bugs with drones in my latest game, not sure if its drones rule 8 related or not. I have +1 talent from the human genome project but my HQ is still rioting every turn even though drones and talents are both equal. See test.sav.

It is indeed drones-rules-8 related; you have 1 superdrone (bright red drone), which counts as 2 drones under rule 8, and only 1 talent, which is why it riots.

(There seems to be something funny going on with ecodamage, though; I can't investigate now, but I'll put it on my list to deal with next week.)

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Also the number of drones in my other bases is unequal for some reason. If you compare the hive and the great collective, you can see the hive starts off with more drones for some reason but the great collective is turning workers into talents via psych (which resulted in more drones) but the hive isnt bothering to do that. If every 2 psych = 1 less drone, then i should be getting -3 drones at both bases but that doesnt appear to be true...see b.sav and screenshot. They both have the same number of drone reducing facilities.

Again, this is because the Hive has superdrones, which need to be cancelled out via psych before workers can turn into talents.

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-Mouse cursor near a volcano mouth appears to be very buggy. The game constantly thinks you are clicking on the volcano mouth when in reality you are clicking the tiles around the mouth. This often results in failed artillery bombardments that hit the volcano mouth when you are trying to hit something near it instead. See screenshot, im trying to bombard the morgan base next to the mouth but it keeps hitting the volcano mouth instead. Even if you do right click - long range fire the game will force you to bombard the volcano mouth randomly.

Seems to work fine for me.

Also noticed that the growth bonus doesnt appear to be calculated normally.

From size 6 to 7 and 0 GROWTH, it takes 64 nutrients. At 20% growth, its 57 nutrients and at 40%, 43 nutrients. I dont know how this is calculated because 80% of 64 nutrients is obviously not 57 nutrients...

Can I have a screenshot of the amounts required?
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on October 18, 2014, 05:25:11 PM
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Long-term, I'm not so sure about that.  Nutrients become quite powerful in the late game (earlier with mods), and farm+enricher+condenser is unquestionably the best for nutrients.  (Even with condensers nerfed somewhat, it's still enough to give a large advantage over forests+boreholes if not for requiring higher former time.)

Im not sure about that, considering that its important to get fungal pops at least until it causes global warming (which can be stalled with solar shades, although its funny how alien factions cant do that). Minerals are worth a lot more than energy because there are huge penalties for rush buying units and secret projects. Then again its possible this is different in MP.

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No, it's specifically designed to favor attacking in the field, but defending in bases.  The viable-in-most-cases options to take one filled to the brim with units are, while not quite bugs, unintended flaws in the game.

I'm not sure about that. If an attacker brings more artillery or altitude favors him, the base is screwed even if theres a huge defending stack, and there are a lot more bonuses for attacking than defending. With naval bases, stacking ground based artillery + AAA garrisons is enough to render it untakable compared to a land base.

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Not to a halt; you can always attack formers/crawlers, go after less-well-defended bases, or simply be a more military-focused faction (from faction ID or social engineering.)  It does limit warfare, which is a good thing (since SMAX loses a lot of its depth if it becomes just a war game).

True, but against the AI its more of a matter of getting that last annoying base out of the way which you cant do because of how long naval vs ground artillery duels take.

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Can't you just use transports, with warships to escort them?

Yes but the warships will be outshot by land based artillery. And once you land troops your success is dependant on whether you can bring more land based artillery on transports than the enemy, and since you are spending resources on transports and warships, that heavily favors him.

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No, it's quite easy if you don't go mostly forests.

If you dont have rainy tiles and dont have condensors yet to make tiles rainy, it will be very difficult to hit pop size 7. Moist + farm is going to be nutrients at best.

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Why are you sending them to other bases, if they're already homed to the bases that can afford to support them?

OK lets say you have 6 bases right? And one or two are your main production bases. So you make units in those, but you hit the support cap pretty quickly. You need to change their home base to the other bases that havent hit their support caps yet, but to do that you need to spend time walking the units over to set their home bases then walking them back to wherever you want them. It adds a potentially long delay to how quickly you can utilize the new units you just bought. This would be less of an issue if you could change home bases without needing to be physically at the new base to do so.

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Because you're trying to use it to speed up a biology lab, which is not a secret project.

But im not, i used it to speed up a secret project via the popup window. The issue is the game isnt carrying over resources correctly. E.G. Lets say a base is producing 50 minerals a turn and its also working on a 200 mineral secret project. I use a 200 mineral supply crawler to speed up the project, this is perfectly fine and intended. But the game decides to use 50 minerals from the base + 150 from the crawler then junk most of the remaining 50 minerals, instead of using 200 from the crawler than carrying over the 50 from the base. That doesnt really make sense...
 
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True, but artillery isn't meant to be such a huge part of the game that it becomes a major issue.

Artillery isnt a major part of the game? But it pretty much decides warfare till air power at least. If you dont have artillery, the enemy artillery can simply bombard your units at their leisure, dropping them to either 1% on land or 50% in a base.

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You misunderstand: The one from the project is not really there and does not cost energy to maintain or provide a grid bonus, whereas one that is built (even if it is later gotten from a project as well) costs energy to maintain but does provide a grid bonus.

Uh if the ones from the secret project dont cost energy to maintain, then why does the economy screen show that they do cost energy to maintain?

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Ah; I think the solution there is to weaken pop booming so they don't grow quite as fast (especially if you're going forest rather than farm/enricher).

Im not sure if thats a good idea, i dont think people want to wait 10+ turns hitting end turn just so that their bases can grow to use the newly terraformed tiles.

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This is because sea tiles have a rockiness level like land tiles (though it isn't shown and doesn't have many consequences), and if it's not rocky it's considered open ground; the only reason it's psi and unarmed units only is that non-psi units with attack can shoot back and so it's a duel rather than bombardment.

My main concern is that psi units at sea become trivial since a single warship can one shot demon boil isles/sea lurks with ease.

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It depends on the rockiness of the square (which also affects the time taken to build tidal harnesses.)
That is very strange, shouldnt all sea tiles have the same rockiness level at least?

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This is because an air unit attacking another air unit with SAM (except maybe in a base, I'm not sure) is considered a dogfight, which has different rules.

Is there any reason why resonance weapons shouldnt work vs locusts in that scenario then, when used by air units? Same for artillery.

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As far as I can tell, they can't make artillery attacks.

Strange, if i select a artillery unit loaded on a transport, i can right click -> long range fire with no problems.

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That would be because they're not in flight and therefore get the open ground bonus...

I was wondering more along the lines of, why does an airbase count as open ground, but its not a big deal.

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This is because it's defending on the ground, not in the air.

If they are defending on the ground, shouldnt they be defending with the armor value instead? A plane on a ground cant shoot back.

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Reverse engineering refers to the exploit where you take that unit with missile launchers and change the chassis, armor, reactor, and/or abilities to get new units despite not having the tech for missile launchers.

Oh so you cant actually reverse engineer units with tech you dont have to get an advantage? Thats a dissapointment, i thought that was a feature.

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It is indeed drones-rules-8 related; you have 1 superdrone (bright red drone), which counts as 2 drones under rule 8, and only 1 talent, which is why it riots.

Why does The Hive have a super drone though? Also after taking into account police/psych/etc, the superdrone is turned into a normal worker (no drones visible at the end), so why is the hive still rioting at that point? I also dont get how the great collective has the same facilities and the same amount of psych, but is ending up with 2 drones and The Hive ends up with 0 drones.

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Can I have a screenshot of the amounts required?

See screenshot. This is on a small map which seems to get a growth bonus (the second pic is after switching to planned with +2 growth). It looks like small maps have a 10% growth and industry bonus and SE choices dont stack with those. So switching to planned is effectively +1 growth only on small maps. The +1 industry does nothing as it does not stack with the small map 10% lower mineral costs.  This also applies to faction bonuses as Yang's +1 growth and +1 industry dont stack with the small map bonus, and Gaians effectively have the same growth/industry as Yang (at least, at the start of the game). This makes everyone more powerful on smaller maps except for the factions which have growth/industry bonuses.


Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Question on October 18, 2014, 05:45:46 PM
Theres also a bug with the way unit promotions work. Sometimes units get stuck and never promote at all despite winning countless battles. In this save, the trained missle infantry will not promote to veteran even after defeating 10 scout patrols which i spawned using the scenario editor...if i spawn a new unit though, that one upgrades to veteran just fine.

Not sure if bug : It still costs energy to upgrade to a new unit with lower or same mineral cost.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Nexii on October 18, 2014, 08:29:29 PM
Yea, I had the idea of support being more automated.  It's one of those tedious areas of the game that doesn't really add much strategic value.  The idea was that your support cap would instead be faction-wide, but still depend on base count.
Example - 6 bases @ 0 SUP - 6*2 = 12 units supported.
3 size-4, and 3 size-7 bases @ 3 SUP - 3*4+3*7 = 33 units supported.

It is a gameplay change though, as then low-M bases can continue to make troops when under siege.  It would also have to be determined how SUP cost would be distributed.  I assume on a % of total mineral production basis, with highest mineral base being chosen in the case of a tie.

The upgrade thing isn't a bug, you can set what that costs in alphax.txt

I think that +GROWTH/IND thing also affects AI on higher difficulties, and when you set N/row to values other than 10.  The game will round to the nearest # of rows.

Far as artillery I've never found it that strong, since its damage per turn is limited.  You can reduce that by modding also though.  Same with the land vs sea artillery bonus.  And sea invasions should be costly, historically it has been very hard to invade island nations.  In fact I kind of like this aspect, with raising disabled.  The downside of being on an island is that you don't get as many bases.  So I think it can even out.

I wouldn't underestimate E heavy strategies.  Commerce can triple E with multiple pacts and global trade pact, and early facilities double economy/labs again.  Also E/sq tends to surpass M/sq (moreso at +2 ECON, but also with HF, echelon).  So E facilities have more value, and M has the really big downside of polluting also.  I think the balance is about right.  Somewhere around 3:1 or 4:1 rush costs is okay.  Of course you can mod terraforming to make some types give more E/M, for more interesting specialization.  I've been trying borehole at 0/0/8 and forest at 1/3/0.  You then can have 'unit' bases and 'science/economy' bases.

But yea, the whole talk about booming being overpowered, I personally don't buy it - at least with default terraforming values.  I put condensors earlier (Gene) and still don't see how it's that useful.  You foremost need the drone control and enough E production for it to be worth it.  By the time you get all that a base will have naturally grown to a decent size.  I considered modding such that Condensor is available from the start - but keeping the 2N/sq cap until Gene.  This way dry terrain could at least get to 2N in the early game.  I think there's still a bug where condensor squares ignore the N cap.  Afaik only bonus resource tiles should exceed the cap, even then that could be debated.
Title: Re: Yitzi's unofficial SMAX patch 3.1e
Post by: Yitzi on October 19, 2014, 02:51:49 AM
Im not sure about that, considering that its important to get fungal pops at least until it causes global warming (which can be stalled with solar shades, although its funny how alien factions cant do that). Minerals are worth a lot more than energy because there are huge penalties for rush buying units and secret projects. Then again its possible this is different in MP.

Why is it important to get fungal pops until it causes warming?

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I'm not sure about that. If an attacker brings more artillery or altitude favors him, the base is screwed even if theres a huge defending stack, and there are a lot more bonuses for attacking than defending. With naval bases, stacking ground based artillery + AAA garrisons is enough to render it untakable compared to a land base.

I think the intent is to make land bases as hard to take as naval bases; the "bug" is then that land bases can be taken with sufficient artillery even if the defender has similar amounts of artillery.

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True, but against the AI its more of a matter of getting that last annoying base out of the way which you cant do because of how long naval vs ground artillery duels take.

Yeah, it can be annoying if you're going for a quick conquest victory.  (But if it's just one last base, you should be able to swamp them with units anyway.)

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Yes but the warships will be outshot by land based artillery. And once you land troops your success is dependant on whether you can bring more land based artillery on transports than the enemy, and since you are spending resources on transports and warships, that heavily favors him.

No, you can bring non-artillery units and attack the base.  It'll require a tech or combat or production advantage, of course, but a strong defender's advantage is good for the game.

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If you dont have rainy tiles and dont have condensors yet to make tiles rainy, it will be very difficult to hit pop size 7. Moist + farm is going to be nutrients at best.

Moist+farm is 2 nutrients.  A person eats 2 nutrients.  So you won't grow that fast, but you can eventually hit pop 7.  Obviously a few rainy tiles will help a lot, as will crawlers or eventual condensers.

But yes, growing fast in the early game is supposed to be difficult.

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OK lets say you have 6 bases right? And one or two are your main production bases.

And the others have less minerals, but still produce 2 or 3 units each, enough to fill up their free support.

"Main production base" in wartime does not mean "produces 90% of your units until you hit your free support cap and then nobody produces any units".  It means "these bases are producing units full-time, and spending perhaps a third or even half of their production on support".

The game is designed with the assumption that free support is a boost, not a hard cap.

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But im not, i used it to speed up a secret project via the popup window.

And then you want to use those sped-up minerals on a bio lab.

You're trying to use carryover minerals to speed something up in a way that would not be possible without carryover minerals.  That is not supposed to be possible, and indeed it is not.

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The issue is the game isnt carrying over resources correctly.

It is; there is a hard cap on carried-over minerals equal to the base's production.

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E.G. Lets say a base is producing 50 minerals a turn and its also working on a 200 mineral secret project. I use a 200 mineral supply crawler to speed up the project, this is perfectly fine and intended. But the game decides to use 50 minerals from the base + 150 from the crawler then junk most of the remaining 50 minerals, instead of using 200 from the crawler than carrying over the 50 from the base. That doesnt really make sense...

If you set carried-over minerals to 50, and it's producing 50 minerals a turn, it should carry over all 50 minerals.  You're right that junking the stuff it produced that turn doesn't make sense, and if you have a scenario like that I can use a savegame to fix the bug.  But the case under discussion was where you have 100 minerals already on the project, so that it only needs 100 more; in that case, it will carry over the 50 minerals from production but not the 100 minerals extra from the supply crawler.
 
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Artillery isnt a major part of the game? But it pretty much decides warfare till air power at least. If you dont have artillery, the enemy artillery can simply bombard your units at their leisure, dropping them to either 1% on land or 50% in a base.

Not at leisure, because you can advance on them and attack them.  They need other units to defend their artillery, so the artillery alone isn't deciding warfare.

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Uh if the ones from the secret project dont cost energy to maintain, then why does the economy screen show that they do cost energy to maintain?

Savegame, please?  Or even screenshot of both the base in question and the economy screen?

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Im not sure if thats a good idea, i dont think people want to wait 10+ turns hitting end turn just so that their bases can grow to use the newly terraformed tiles.

There should be plenty of other things to do besides hitting end turn.

If someone wants bases to grow every turn, they can reduce terraforming times to match, but I don't think that will produce a very good game.

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My main concern is that psi units at sea become trivial since a single warship can one shot demon boil isles/sea lurks with ease.

This is true, and is on the list to make changeable.

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That is very strange, shouldnt all sea tiles have the same rockiness level at least?

I'd think so, but that's not how it works, and there doesn't seem to be a consensus that it's a bug; it's on my list to make an option to change it.

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Is there any reason why resonance weapons shouldnt work vs locusts in that scenario then, when used by air units? Same for artillery.

Because one of those different rules is that resonance doesn't work; it's on my list to make changeable.

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Strange, if i select a artillery unit loaded on a transport, i can right click -> long range fire with no problems.

I get a message "ground units may not bombard from the sea".  Savegame, please?

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I was wondering more along the lines of, why does an airbase count as open ground, but its not a big deal.

Any square that is flat (not sure about rolling) counts as open ground.

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If they are defending on the ground, shouldnt they be defending with the armor value instead? A plane on a ground cant shoot back.

Good point.  Ok, then I'm not sure why the rule is that it defends with attack value but no bonus.  If you want, you can start a poll about whether it's a bug, and if it is I'll fix it.  (If not, I've got a combat rework planned eventually.)

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Oh so you cant actually reverse engineer units with tech you dont have to get an advantage? Thats a dissapointment, i thought that was a feature.

You can, but it's generally considered an exploit (albeit one permitted in most MP games, not sure why), not a feature.

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Why does The Hive have a super drone though? Also after taking into account police/psych/etc, the superdrone is turned into a normal worker (no drones visible at the end), so why is the hive still rioting at that point? I also dont get how the great collective has the same facilities and the same amount of psych, but is ending up with 2 drones and The Hive ends up with 0 drones.

Ok, let's go through the full list of what happens in each base:

-The Hive is size 17, so at Librarian difficulty that means 14 drones.  However, there are only 13 non-specialists; without drones rule 8 the extra drone would disappear, but with drones rule 8 it instead turns one of your drones into a superdrone, so that now you have 12 drones and 1 superdrone for a total of 14 (superdrones count double for most purposes), as the base should have.  Your rec commons, hologram theater (from the Virtual World) and research hospital remove 5 drones, but your genejack factory adds one for 8 drones and 1 superdrone.  Your two police units (you might want to consider a third) remove 3 drones each (1+1 for nonlethal methods+1 for +3 POLICE), leaving 2 drones and 1 superdrone.  The longevity vaccine removes 2 more drones, leaving only the superdrone, and the human genome project adds a talent, leaving you at 1 talent and 1 superdrone for -1, i.e. it riots.  (I'm not sure what you mean about the superdrone being turned into a normal worker at the end; which drone rules code are you using?)

Great Collective has 18 population, meaning 15 drones; because there are only 2 specialists, that's 15 drones and no superdrones.  11 psych is enough to make 5 talents; because there are only 16 nonspecialists (not enough for 15 drones and 5 talents), 2 of the talents cancel with 2 of the drones for 13 drones and 3 talents.  As before, facilities remove 5 drones but add 1 for a total of 9, and police remove another 6 for a total of 3.  Secret projects remove 2 drones and add a talent, for a total of 6 talents and 1 drone.

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Can I have a screenshot of the amounts required?

See screenshot. This is on a small map which seems to get a growth bonus (the second pic is after switching to planned with +2 growth). It looks like small maps have a 10% growth and industry bonus and SE choices dont stack with those. So switching to planned is effectively +1 growth only on small maps. The +1 industry does nothing as it does not stack with the small map 10% lower mineral costs.  This also applies to faction bonuses as Yang's +1 growth and +1 industry dont stack with the small map bonus, and Gaians effectively have the same growth/industry as Yang (at least, at the start of the game). This makes everyone more powerful on smaller maps except for the factions which have growth/industry bonuses.[/quote]

Yes, the interaction between small maps and growth/industry bonuses is a potential problem, but I'm not sure how to deal with it.  (It's not a question of stacking, by the way, it's that reducing 9 minerals/nutrients per row by 10% isn't enough to bring it down to 8, so it stays at 9.)  I think, though, that increasing minerals and nutrients per row to 11 will cause it to be 10 on small maps, giving the normal results (though what effect that will have on other gameplay factors is another question.)

Theres also a bug with the way unit promotions work. Sometimes units get stuck and never promote at all despite winning countless battles. In this save, the trained missle infantry will not promote to veteran even after defeating 10 scout patrols which i spawned using the scenario editor...if i spawn a new unit though, that one upgrades to veteran just fine.

I'll put it on the list to investigate and fix.

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Not sure if bug : It still costs energy to upgrade to a new unit with lower or same mineral cost.

That depends on how you set the upgrade cost formula.

Yea, I had the idea of support being more automated.  It's one of those tedious areas of the game that doesn't really add much strategic value.  The idea was that your support cap would instead be faction-wide, but still depend on base count.
Example - 6 bases @ 0 SUP - 6*2 = 12 units supported.
3 size-4, and 3 size-7 bases @ 3 SUP - 3*4+3*7 = 33 units supported.

It is a gameplay change though, as then low-M bases can continue to make troops when under siege.  It would also have to be determined how SUP cost would be distributed.  I assume on a % of total mineral production basis, with highest mineral base being chosen in the case of a tie.

It would also mean that you can't leave your highest-mineral bases support-free for building projects or the like.  And of course there are other effects of home base, such as the morale penalty for riots...

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I think that +GROWTH/IND thing also affects AI on higher difficulties, and when you set N/row to values other than 10.  The game will round to the nearest # of rows.

Indeed.

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But yea, the whole talk about booming being overpowered, I personally don't buy it - at least with default terraforming values.  I put condensors earlier (Gene) and still don't see how it's that useful.  You foremost need the drone control and enough E production for it to be worth it.  By the time you get all that a base will have naturally grown to a decent size.  I considered modding such that Condensor is available from the start - but keeping the 2N/sq cap until Gene.  This way dry terrain could at least get to 2N in the early game.  I think there's still a bug where condensor squares ignore the N cap.  Afaik only bonus resource tiles should exceed the cap, even then that could be debated.

It's clearly intentionally programmed in, so it's definitely not a bug; whether it's good design is another question.

And I would agree that booming probably isn't overpowered; it has a number of detrimental effects on the game (such as making the optimal number of formers too high and making surplus nutrients past 2 too unimportant in the midgame), but "overpowered" probably isn't one of them.