Alpha Centauri 2

Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri & Alien Crossfire => The Theory of Everything => Topic started by: MercantileInterest on May 25, 2016, 04:11:08 pm

Title: The Progenitors
Post by: MercantileInterest on May 25, 2016, 04:11:08 pm
The Caretakers and the Usurpers hate each other so greatly, they cannot even speak with each other. They will battle each other tusk and claw until only one remains. So why is it they can conquer Progenitor cities without all the populace fleeing from the despised new overlords? Does most of their kind consist of low intelligence workers easily bent to the will of the ruling elite?
 
Advanced species though they may be, they're not immune to drone problems but they suffer zero negative consequences for nerve stapling, as if they have no moral objections. In fact, if you play as a human who suffers defeat at alien hands, the final Book of Planet entry shows the creatures placing you into an enhanced Punishment Sphere, as if they enjoy inflicting pain.  They designed the xenofungus as a collective mind, doubtless as a consciousness they could relate to, and the xenofungus designed mind worms.

They not only favor planned economy, they praise humans for implementing similar measures, although it wouldn't occur to them to criticize humans for murdering an entire base. Individual lives don't seem to matter to them at all.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 25, 2016, 06:47:27 pm
They're a herd species like cattle with a much more rigid pecking order than humans, is my theory.  Hold on and I'll link my article with the reasoning that touches on this...
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 25, 2016, 06:50:47 pm
The Progenitors, and an introduction to the challenge of Xenopology Pt.1 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=10)

...I've needed to write up Part Two for four years now, where I go over the leaderheads in detail...
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: MercantileInterest on May 25, 2016, 07:54:26 pm
An excellent working theory. In fact, one of the Progenitors (Kri'lan) does defect to the Planet Cult. Cha Dawn mentions him a few times in his quotes. The need to demonstrate dominance would explain their cruelty but they probably wouldn't be totalitarian in the same way as humans. Our dictators forbid their subjects from laughing at the goose step or force them to rehearse elaborate parades for months to appease the dictator's vanity. They do this because such an unnatural level of control requires constant reinforcement.

As a herd species, the Progenitors would naturally submit to authority without elaborate rituals and onerous private obligations. Their only method of subversion would be to challenge the leader directly. How would the different groups interact? After all, each city would consist of its own herd.

Would like to see the second article.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 25, 2016, 08:25:24 pm
Herds and troops where fighting for dominance is the mode never go a really long time without some sort of challenge.  Those would be dangerous times to be their neighbors, and/or opportunities - the herd/troop is miserable when who's in charge is up in the air, according to Jane Goodall.  At any rate, the reinforcements would be different, but I don't know that I'd buy there being less of them.  An Alpha Male's gotta make his regular dominance displays...

I did have Kri'lan in mind when I said that, but recalled him as I came to the conclusion anyway, not the other way around.  -He didn't fit the timeline the article was written for before anyone had actually talked to progs worth mentioning...
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: MercantileInterest on May 25, 2016, 10:56:08 pm
Marr's profile says he distinguished himself in the Succession Wars leading to the Usurper-Caretaker schism. The use of the term "succession" is interesting, as is the fact that the Progenitors fought each other before splitting. Since they developed a complex civilization, perhaps they usually conducted ritual combat and after the disaster of the Tau Ceti flowering, the combat became a bit less ritual. The manual explains that the aliens have in 'recent millennia' been at war. Marr is at least several thousand years old.

Alpha Centauri is not far from Tau Ceti. The flowering and the war must have been pretty bad to make them lose the location. "the herd/troop is miserable when who's in charge is up in the air" On a grand scale, that's what's been wrong with the Progenitors for thousands of years.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 25, 2016, 11:11:02 pm
Hmm.  Tau Ceti is 11 ly away to AC's 4 and a hair - are they in more or less the same direction from here?

This is a very interesting line of thought.  I wonder if Marr is from some sort of long stasis or a slower than light trip?  There's some indications that the schism was tens of thousands of years ago or more, if the marked difference between Marr and H'mnee isn't gender dimorphism...
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: MercantileInterest on May 25, 2016, 11:42:54 pm
H'mnee is from Ursa Prime. If that means Alpha Ursa Majoris, its 147 ly from Earth. Alpha Centauri is more than 10 ly from Tau Ceti (http://www.solstation.com/stars/tau-ceti.htm (http://www.solstation.com/stars/tau-ceti.htm)). Can't find the exact distance. Deirdre claims that the flowering takes place every few hundred million years. By her calculation, the fungus has been the dominant lifeform on Planet since the lower Paleozoic. That's five hundred million years ago. Marr and H'mnee most likely hail from different subspecies.

Still, we know that the ancient Progenitors were not clinically immortal. Both factions refer to them as ancestors, so they are no longer present.

Speaking of subspecies: "If you squinted, you might mistake them for Progenitor younglings--but with diseased,
shrunken heads. They look like the entertainment story conjurations of primitive tribal feeders in the dark parts of the homeworld. They look disgusting." Something comparable to Neanderthals may exist on their home world.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 26, 2016, 12:03:18 am
?  I don't recognize that last quote.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: MercantileInterest on May 26, 2016, 12:28:41 am
All the Progenitor portions of the Book of Planet can be found in interludea.txt

That's part of the text shown after the discovery of humans.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 26, 2016, 12:32:34 am
AAHHH.  Played the Caretakers through a couple times, and never the super-evil ETs at all.  Easy to miss this and that in only a few plays...
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: MercantileInterest on May 26, 2016, 12:40:02 am
They're just too powerful. You can stomp the AI even more easily than with a human faction. Playing them with a self imposed base limit of six makes them a bit more interesting. A multiplayer match setting two players of equal skill in command of the xenos would make life fun for the other human players.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: Lord Avalon on May 26, 2016, 01:01:06 am
Hmm.  Tau Ceti is 11 ly away to AC's 4 and a hair - are they in more or less the same direction from here?
....



It looks like they could be in the same quadrant per the pic here (http://www.space.com/18964-the-nearest-stars-to-earth-infographic.html).
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: MercantileInterest on May 26, 2016, 01:27:30 am
Firaxis messed up. There is no way the Progenitors knew the location of Tau Ceti but couldn't find Alpha Centauri, not when given thousands of years to do so with faster than light technology. They wouldn't even need to build a beacon. The stranded ships could just send an ordinary radio signal and wait a few decades. We can do that with our current technology.

Or, the probe teams sifting through the alien data links mislabeled an entirely different star as Tau Ceti.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: Yitzi on May 29, 2016, 05:08:56 pm
Firaxis messed up. There is no way the Progenitors knew the location of Tau Ceti but couldn't find Alpha Centauri, not when given thousands of years to do so with faster than light technology. They wouldn't even need to build a beacon. The stranded ships could just send an ordinary radio signal and wait a few decades. We can do that with our current technology.

Or, the probe teams sifting through the alien data links mislabeled an entirely different star as Tau Ceti.

Or the fact that Tau Ceti and Manifold 6 were fairly close to each other wasn't considered relevant enough to make mention of.  (And a radio signal wouldn't help, given that there are probably no other Progenitor forces close enough for the radio signal to be clear; we have no reason to think there are any actual forces on Tau Ceti any more.)
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: Buster's Uncle on May 29, 2016, 05:53:12 pm
Point.  I hardly get perfect TV reception for stations 100 miles away with repeaters a lot closer.  We're talking SERIOUS juice (and/or serious antennas known to point the right way) for an SOS to hope to get through 10 lyrs away.

---

-You know, absent any way to get a sense of their relative sizes, Marr and H'mnee's gender dimorphism is actually far LESS pronounced than my herd-species theory calls for - and I'd hoped it was actually a sign of how amazingly long ago the Usurpers and Caretakers separated and evolved independently, at least tens of thousand of years.  This needs more thinking...
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: MercantileInterest on June 04, 2016, 09:29:41 pm
How much interference does deep space generate? Once a signal makes it through the atmosphere, doesn't it grow clearer? I've heard humanity's first transmission powerful enough to reach space was the Munich (Nazi) Olympics. To take Yitzi's point, we almost certainly know there aren't any Progenitors left on Tau Ceti. Maybe they destroyed that Manifold after the premature flowering. (No reason to go back.) If transmission does take that much power, we're guaranteed fusion before 2300.

BUncle, your herd species theory explains everything really well, except for the H'mnee holds a position of leadership. An alpha male should be running the herd, not a female. Maybe the aliens have three biological genders.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2016, 09:32:58 pm
Do we know she's female?  Isn't that a guess by a probe team?  Do Prog genders even match up with Earth genders?  Why would they?
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: MercantileInterest on June 04, 2016, 10:30:54 pm
Every lifeform on Earth is either asexual or male/female. Any other system seems unnecessarily complicated. It's probably a standard pattern.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: Buster's Uncle on June 04, 2016, 10:56:48 pm
And why should, for instance, the males dominate?  It's is certainly not the way it always works outside the Earth mammals...


And why should I not ask you what it'll take to get you in an avatar?
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: Lord Avalon on June 04, 2016, 11:20:05 pm
And why should, for instance, the males dominate?  It's is certainly not the way it always works outside the Earth mammals...
Or even within Earth mammals, like the hyena, lemur or bonobo.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: MercantileInterest on June 04, 2016, 11:57:57 pm
According to the profiles, Marr is male (sort of) and H'mnee is female (sort of). Either way, there's a dominance issue.

While that puts this slightly off topic, the hyena is a carnivore, lemurs(?) and bonobos are herbivores. Does earth have any herds with dominant females? Ants and bees, suppose. (Smitten for bad science.) With mammals, a single breeding female couldn't sustain a herd.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: bvanevery on January 14, 2017, 09:29:21 am
The Progenitors, and an introduction to the challenge of Xenopology Pt.1 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?action=articles;sa=view;article=10)


Your article says:
Quote
It is difficult to believe that a Progenitor leader could be anything but a dictator so absolute as to make Joseph Stalin look like Gandhi.


That doesn't square with the Caretakers being perfectly capable of making the Democratic social engineering choice.  The Usurpers are the ones who can't do it.

I think you are attributing things to instinct / Nature that are not reasonable for a sentient being of, say, modern human level of intelligence.  Big brains give flexibility.  That is one of their main evolutionary functions.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: Yitzi on January 19, 2017, 09:15:22 pm
Every lifeform on Earth is either asexual or male/female.

Some are hermaphrodites, or can switch between male and female.  While a 3-gender system is unlikely (it adds complexity as compared to 2-gender, without adding the recombining advantages of 2-gender over asexual), it is entirely plausible that which "role" is played by a given organism at a given time will depend on factors other than the individual's genetics, and it's even possible that there'd be a 2-gender system that does not easily map to "male" and "female".
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: bvanevery on January 20, 2017, 06:42:13 am
it is entirely plausible that which "role" is played by a given organism at a given time will depend on factors other than the individual's genetics,

It's not just plausible, it's human fact.  I recently saw a documentary about somewhere in the world, can't remember where, where "girls" finally grow penises at puberty and become boys.  But they are are psychologically identifying as boys before then, telling others no no, I am / I feel like a boy.  The phenomenon is common in this town and they even had a word for people going through this late gender transition.  I don't think the documentary said why people experienced this.  I'm guessing some kind of environmental contamination.

Sorry I am too lazy to look this thing up right now.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: Yitzi on January 20, 2017, 12:14:38 pm
They're just too powerful. You can stomp the AI even more easily than with a human faction. Playing them with a self imposed base limit of six makes them a bit more interesting. A multiplayer match setting two players of equal skill in command of the xenos would make life fun for the other human players.

Although with enough humans, and a rule that humans can take part in cooperative victory but the alien players can't, and that an alien win is considered a double loss for the other alien player, things could get interesting.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: MercantileInterest on January 20, 2017, 04:53:58 pm
They're just too powerful. You can stomp the AI even more easily than with a human faction. Playing them with a self imposed base limit of six makes them a bit more interesting. A multiplayer match setting two players of equal skill in command of the xenos would make life fun for the other human players.


Although with enough humans, and a rule that humans can take part in cooperative victory but the alien players can't, and that an alien win is considered a double loss for the other alien player, things could get interesting.


Were doing something similar right now: http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=18632.0 (http://alphacentauri2.info/index.php?topic=18632.0)
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: ComradeCrimson on January 25, 2017, 02:53:00 am
One thing to note with pack/herd dominance is that females often fight for top position as well. Wolves are a great example of this, where there is an Alpha Male, and Alpha Female. And while other females may be mated with occasionally the Alpha Female demands the utmost attention from the Alpha Male as she has earned the right to be the prime breeding partner of the Alpha Male, the most physically imposing of the pack. So dominance in herd/pack mentalities can play on both genders, and it would not be hard to believe such a thing could be with Progenitors.

 Even more so, with herbivore like animals, elephants also display levels of dominance amongst both genders. There will be dominant bulls in bachelor parties as well as elderly matrons of herds of female/youth elephants, who are at the top of the social ladder. I also think that the premise of a dictatorship in these societies is mostly true- but absolute control would be impossible I think. Its all based on prominence and defectors as stated would occur to challenge the leadership from time to time. I could very well see a "democratic" regime for the Caretakers being intertwined with displays of imposing dominance as a statesman, as well as organizationally more likely being something of a parliamentary procedure rather than something like direct democracy or even representative republic democracy like how the United States does, and being more akin to something like how Cuba runs with a government that votes on issues- but doesn't necessarily rely on input from a voting populace. It could even be something of a constitutional monarchy or despotism in a sense that there is a prime dominant leader but they delegate power to the parliament in order to appease different herds/groups within the civilization.

This also makes sense upon review of the two factions because the Caretakers, philosophically are extreme conservationists who have willingly chose to let their species wane in order to avoid catastrophe and incredible amounts of destruction; splitting from Marr's Usurpers, which indicates that the Caretakers are something of a conscientious objector group that likely is herds or individuals who all were both not agreeable to Marr's quest for power and immortality as well as not being intimidated/favourable of him as a leader, as he represents something rather unnatural in how tightly he grips power, not allowing natural process a chance to remove him.

Marr on the other hand with his Usurpers represent the opposite camp. Total control with his followers following him through his evidently aggressive and domineering behaviour and the fact that the quest for immortality and power appeals to them. To strengthen the herd with such a goal that is transcendence, the ultimate form of cheating death- effective immortality. And Marr represents the other side of the coin of the alien mentality. Power, control. While H'mnee is all about the natural balance of power. They represent the two sides of the biological coin of their race in a sense, I feel.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: bvanevery on January 25, 2017, 04:32:25 am
I could very well see a "democratic" regime for the Caretakers being intertwined with displays of imposing dominance as a statesman, as well as organizationally more likely being something of a parliamentary procedure rather than something like direct democracy or even representative republic democracy like how the United States does, and being more akin to something like how Cuba runs with a government that votes on issues- but doesn't necessarily rely on input from a voting populace.


Of course you can see it.  But in so doing, you are also probably redefining what a "Democratic" social engineering choice means in Alpha Centauri.  Granted we are offered a very coarse grained trichotomy: Police State, Democratic, or Fundamentalist.  You might as well ask how "Democratic" are the UN Peacekeepers?  To what degree are you willing to undermine the notion of Democracy, yet retain and claim that a faction behaves "Democratically" ?

A real world example: how democratic have blacks felt the USA to be at various times?  Like even during WW II?  The military started integrating but I think they were only getting started, like being able to ride on a bus together and stuff.  We wouldn't have The Tuskegee Airmen (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Airmen) as a thing if blacks were really well integrated.  Meanwhile the South was racist as heck, the KKK was strong, and other parts of the country weren't so great either.  Racism and eugenics were only a matter of degree in the USA as compared to the Nazis, not quite willing to just slay the marginalized social groups.

Do you buy that in 2150 (time possibly necessary to research and implement a Democratic societal model), "Democratic" means "keepin' the darkies down" or some such WW II analogue?  Do you think it means Putin playing revolving door with going in and out of titular power, to avoid term limits?  I don't.  I think that's a complete crock.  I think "Democratic" in the game means something minimally similar to what the various industrial democracies on the planet are currently like.  Why should I be wrong?  Pointedly, it should look something like the present day United Nations, because Lal gets in a snit with anyone who isn't Democratic.

Of course I grant you that some people have very dim views of present day USA style democracy and think they're living under Fascists, etc.  Although especially the election of [Sleezebag] gives one pause, I do think such people are prone to exaggeration and are not objective about how good or bad the USA is, compared to other regimes around the world.  Like, they have a lot of freedom to whine about problems and put funny labels on them.  In other parts of the world, you are persecuted, jailed, and summarily executed for such antics.  That would equate more with the "Police State" social engineering choice in SMAC.  "Fundamentalist" regimes are similarly limiting of freedoms and actually SMAC's distinction between that and a "Police State" is completely arbitrary.  I guarantee you ISIS is running a Police State.

After I finished the above, I checked my email and ran into an example of democracy actually happening.

-dakota-access-pipeline-executive-order-dapl-standing-rock-no-keystone-investment-energy-transfer-partners-kelcy-warren-donation/][Sleezebag] Dakota Access Pipeline Executive Order: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know (http://heavy.com/news/2017/01/[Sleezebag)
3. The Standing Rock Tribe Will Go to Court Seeking to Invalidate the Executive Order & Camp Leaders Want ‘Mass Civil Disobedience’

If you don't have a separation of powers, where the people can go to the courts to seek injunctive relief against the actions of other branches of government, such as the Executive... then you don't have Democracy.  Talking about the Caretakers having 'democracy' where they don't bother with what people want, just make decisions like Cuba does, is a farce.  Now I'm sure someone out there thinks we're all helpless, voting doesn't matter, courts don't matter, etc.  They're wrong, they're not being objective, but some people do believe they're living under tyranny.  Even when the reality is they're living in a democratic system where it's difficult but not impossible to get their way.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: ComradeCrimson on January 27, 2017, 06:53:28 pm
Now I'm sure someone out there thinks we're all helpless, voting doesn't matter, courts don't matter, etc.  They're wrong, they're not being objective, but some people do believe they're living under tyranny.  Even when the reality is they're living in a democratic system where it's difficult but not impossible to get their way.


All fair points, however I must also state something to the contrary;

I personally do not believe voting to be futile. Quite the opposite rather. I think it to be volatile. As elitist as this sounds, democracy can only truly work as an effective system is if the populace is educated, aware and informed enough of their nation's problems, and to a good degree, history and social mechanisms.

Without this knowledge you're giving the metaphorical guns to the ignorant, the trigger to the ill disciplined, the button to the unaware. Demagogues have gotten into power because of this, and history proves that time and time again. Adolf Hitler, for example was elected. He may have not been overwhelmingly elected by the vast majority but he was voted strongly enough to claim power.

Its how in recent times how Erdogan in Turkey and how Donald [Sleezebag] in America have claimed power. Not that I am necessarily meaning to compare Donald [Sleezebag] and Adolf Hitler, or even that I am saying Donald [Sleezebag] is a complete demagogue (but he most certainly is a populist who has some rather extreme views), but I feel that if people aren't truly aware of how their system works it can lead to disastrous consequences. Extremists can gain power easily by manipulating the flow and sway of people's emotions during an election and it can lead to staggering problems once these people take power.

I personally think that SMAC's representation of every single social policy in the game would likely vary according to the faction and leader implementing it. Gaian Fundamentalism is not going to look the same as Believer Fundamentalism. Worship of planet is not the same as worship of Abrahamic god and Christ.

Hive focus on power is not the same as Spartan focus on power. The hive wouldn't allow its citizens weapons and instead just increases the amount of weapons it has for its army and gears towards expansion for the good of the collective, while Spartan power would be a combination of heavily armed militias, paramilitaries and the base army growing in number; somewhat similar to how Serbia was during the Yugoslav wars with countless volunteer militias fighting the war for the nation, with often horrifying results.

And Morganite free market is going to look considerably different than per se, a university free market. One of them is going to be a monopolised economy under Morgan industries, and the other is going to be a bunch of professors selling stupid amounts of snake oil and drugs to hapless students- who will likely be broke and can't afford tuition fees- so they'll just shift market to selling pharmaceuticals to whomever is a democracy.


Edit: That said, apathy is just as dangerous as not voting, in my opinion. I always voted. But I always make sure I am informed.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: bvanevery on January 27, 2017, 09:17:26 pm
Adolf Hitler, for example was elected. He may have not been overwhelmingly elected by the vast majority but he was voted strongly enough to claim power.

That didn't happen because of 'democracy'.  That happened because of the punitive economic attitude that the victors of WW I took towards Germany, and because of The Great Depression.  The Nazis did not have support until the serious economic crisis was happening.  I think it's fair to take the following lesson from this: a poor Democracy isn't worth anything.

Quote
I personally think that SMAC's representation of every single social policy in the game would likely vary according to the faction and leader implementing it. Gaian Fundamentalism is not going to look the same as Believer Fundamentalism. Worship of planet is not the same as worship of Abrahamic god and Christ.

True.  Might be interesting to design Belief Systems, much as one designs units.  If you impose a Belief System, you're stuck with it for awhile.

Actually I really like that idea.  I'll have to pen and paper it up some.  I think I'm trying to write a game like SMAC.  I have tried before, unfortunately it led to bankruptcy.  Oh well.  That was then, this is now?
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: ComradeCrimson on January 27, 2017, 09:47:41 pm
Adolf Hitler, for example was elected. He may have not been overwhelmingly elected by the vast majority but he was voted strongly enough to claim power.

That didn't happen because of 'democracy'.  That happened because of the punitive economic attitude that the victors of WW I took towards Germany, and because of The Great Depression.  The Nazis did not have support until the serious economic crisis was happening.  I think it's fair to take the following lesson from this: a poor Democracy isn't worth anything.

Quote
I personally think that SMAC's representation of every single social policy in the game would likely vary according to the faction and leader implementing it. Gaian Fundamentalism is not going to look the same as Believer Fundamentalism. Worship of planet is not the same as worship of Abrahamic god and Christ.

True.  Might be interesting to design Belief Systems, much as one designs units.  If you impose a Belief System, you're stuck with it for awhile.

Actually I really like that idea.  I'll have to pen and paper it up some.  I think I'm trying to write a game like SMAC.  I have tried before, unfortunately it led to bankruptcy.  Oh well.  That was then, this is now?

Of course, I wasn't meaning to cherry pick with the facts and stuff there. But still, the Nazi's still took power via election; Germany's economic condition was deplorable due to the reparation payments it was stuck from the Versailles agreement and the general beating it took from the first world war. But my point still stands. The apathy of people who didn't act, and the people who did act based on their emotions at the time- the desperation to heal a wounded Germany without reviewing the candidates- led to Adolf Hitler being elected. Now I'm not saying this as to put stupid amounts of blame on a beleaguered people, but rather just to illustrate that democracy as a system is vulnerable to that. But then again, one could argue that a poor economy in any society will lead to social collapse and demagogues to arise; regardless if its a poor democracy or a poor dictatorship.

[Sleezebag] scares me. He's going to stall science a lot and I see him exhibiting demagogue like traits. Hopefully he doesn't last long in office and is impeached.

That aside however, I do think that having the social system thing would be nifty- and its certainly doable with today's technology. Civilization has already attempted stuff like this and social model stuff isn't really too far fetched in games now a days. I think that culture in general, both in real life and potentially in a game, have in the case in real life and in the case of a video game should have a long lasting effect on how things run and how people act; and in gameplay terms, how your society functions and operates.

The first thing someone would have to do is ascribe a system of morals. And not to deviate too much from the original subject matter, that would first be identifying the basic starting morality of the faction you're playing- in the case of the Caretakers and Usurpers its Conservationism at its most extreme versus Power and exploitation at its most extreme. So morality wise sacrifice- would be embraced by the Caretakers, but abhorred by the Usurpers.

Another game that sort of has a system where there is a slider for specific moral concepts is Dwarf Fortress. It has different values and a person can be anywhere on a slide from strongly opposed to strongly aligned to a certain moral concept, such as the value of family, tradition, decorum, martial might, craftsmanship, etc.



Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: Buster's Uncle on January 27, 2017, 09:54:02 pm
Somebody please go look that up about Hitler being elected - I don't think so.  He was appointed Chancellor by Hindenburg, illegally IIRC.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: ComradeCrimson on January 27, 2017, 10:16:13 pm
Somebody please go look that up about Hitler being elected - I don't think so.  He was appointed Chancellor by Hindenburg, illegally IIRC.


I stand corrected. I knew Hitler solidified his power with the Reichstag Fire Decree after he became Chancellor, and I thought his party had gained a good enough majority to become elected prior that- but I was wrong.

My apologies.

Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: bvanevery on January 29, 2017, 02:57:20 am
The apathyfear of people who didn't act,

The Nazi SA Brownshirts were famous for their street violence, against the Communists and anyone else who opposed them.  Ergo I Fixed That For You.

Quote
But then again, one could argue that a poor economy in any society will lead to social collapse and demagogues to arise; regardless if its a poor democracy or a poor dictatorship.

Not really.  North Korea is still holding together.  That said, I did see an article in the paper about Kim Jong Un losing his grip on power, according to a defector.  Didn't actually read the article.  Saddam Hussein did fine with UN sanctions and denial of food aid.  He just withheld food from the people he didn't like, the Shiites.  Sucks for post-war Iraq, but Saddam would have held on forever absent armed intervention.

Quote
Hopefully he doesn't last long in office and is impeached.

I think that's wishful thinking.  It's definitely not a game plan for dealing with him.

Quote
The first thing someone would have to do is ascribe a system of morals.

I've actually been thinking more in terms of choice points in the game.  This can include even what units you build.  If you build a lot of military stuff, for instance, you are going to empower people who are militant.  If you allow beatings in the streets on civil rights issues, you are going to slide into a Police State.  And if you want out of that, it's going to be too late.  At least for awhile.  I've wondered about the player running the government "being assassinated", and then what role does the player get to take next?  I don't think "game over" would be a good mechanic, but I haven't resolved what kind of continuity the player has in the game.  For instance if some other country militarily defeats you, do you get to take over the victor and keep going?  That would render "winning the game" somewhat meaningless.
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: ComradeCrimson on January 29, 2017, 10:39:21 am
The apathyfear of people who didn't act,

The Nazi SA Brownshirts were famous for their street violence, against the Communists and anyone else who opposed them.  Ergo I Fixed That For You.

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But then again, one could argue that a poor economy in any society will lead to social collapse and demagogues to arise; regardless if its a poor democracy or a poor dictatorship.

Not really.  North Korea is still holding together.  That said, I did see an article in the paper about Kim Jong Un losing his grip on power, according to a defector.  Didn't actually read the article.  Saddam Hussein did fine with UN sanctions and denial of food aid.  He just withheld food from the people he didn't like, the Shiites.  Sucks for post-war Iraq, but Saddam would have held on forever absent armed intervention.

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Hopefully he doesn't last long in office and is impeached.

I think that's wishful thinking.  It's definitely not a game plan for dealing with him.

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The first thing someone would have to do is ascribe a system of morals.

I've actually been thinking more in terms of choice points in the game.  This can include even what units you build.  If you build a lot of military stuff, for instance, you are going to empower people who are militant.  If you allow beatings in the streets on civil rights issues, you are going to slide into a Police State.  And if you want out of that, it's going to be too late.  At least for awhile.  I've wondered about the player running the government "being assassinated", and then what role does the player get to take next?  I don't think "game over" would be a good mechanic, but I haven't resolved what kind of continuity the player has in the game.  For instance if some other country militarily defeats you, do you get to take over the victor and keep going?  That would render "winning the game" somewhat meaningless.

Maybe if you had a named successor? Like a paradox grand strategy game?


Also on the note of the Nazi takeover, I was aware of their street violence. Often busting open Jewish shops and brutalising people. Even within their own party with the night of long knives.

But my point was that apathy; and in more extreme cases, fear, can lead to tyrants and demagogues taking power. Of course its not as simple as that but as a citizen of any democratic government, it should be a person's responsibility to at least vote- and at that, be an informed voter in my opinion.

As for a gameplan on dealing with [Sleezebag]... pressure and exposure of incompetency is the safest route; because rioting violently isn't going to work, neither are protests. Its going to need something to expose him for a wrongdoing that'll get him out of office.


Changing subject back to the social system you speak of- so you'd have a certain amount of allocatable points when designing a society?
Title: Re: The Progenitors
Post by: bvanevery on February 02, 2017, 07:33:49 pm
Changing subject back to the social system you speak of- so you'd have a certain amount of allocatable points when designing a society?

No I meant "point at which you make a choice in the game".  Could have said, "time at which you make a choice in the game."  Any time you decide what a city is going to build, for instance, you are choosing to push your society incrementally in some directions and not others.  I would also eliminate the city-by-city choices, somehow.  As civilizations get larger, it's not interesting.
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