posted 12-17-98 11:26 PM ET            

Being the conservative that I am(though NOT a Republican. hate the evil bastards, ), I would have to argue that personal freedom not only is about personal rights, but about personal rights to spend their money the way they want. Imnsho, the quality of living is higher in more capitalistic governments because the taxes are lower(due to less redistributation), and the money they save can be spent on personal luxury, thereby increasing personal liberties. Thank you, that is all.

posted 12-18-98 03:41 AM ET            

Its not that hard to go to a good collage that does not make you go into that much of a loan... Sheesh UCLA is one of the best collages in the Word and for CA residents its only about 5000 a year. Not counting the many easy to get Scolarships....

Anyway.

Historicaly the countries in the EU have very little freedom.

1. No writen Consitution in Britian. ie. no true inforcements of freedoms. No core rights. The Goverment has no balances.

2. In France if you are in the Arab Race you can be searched by any cop at any time for any reason, even if you are a French Citizen. That sounds like a lack of rights...

Not to mention Socialism. This form of goverment tries to make everyone happy. But as this cannot be done what it ends up doing is making a docial, sheep like populace. Ie. No true freedom.

posted 12-18-98 05:36 AM ET            

Instead, the U.S. emphasize that civil and political rights must have priority, contrary to the principle of universality of the UD, thus feeling free to criticize countries who are not upholding these rights in the same way that they do, all the while ignoring the issue of their rejection of economic, social, and cultural rights guaranteed by the UD.

Of course, this issue is generally ignored with a torrent of self-praise, but when raised, usualy elicits mostly incomprehension, as can be seen from various posts on this forum (and not just this thread in particular).

posted 12-18-98 10:42 AM ET            

But for the liberal rights: European nations have varying constitutions, but there are fundamental rights in EU law and in the European Convention on Human Rights. The US would be permanently held in breach of the convention if it were a member: death penalty, prison sentences, prison conditions, fair trials etc. And the US civil law on torts and damages is a gross and flagrant violation of the right to property - evr thought of that ?

Economic freedom, esp. taxes. Taxes are not higher in most european states than in the US. What is higher are payroll/social security taxes. But for those, you get a certain payback: state pensions, health care, unemployment benefits and retraining. If you have to pay for a private health insurance, there is not so much difference. If you can't afford it and you can't get treatment, and therefore you can't work, I don't consider that economic freedom.

If anyone wants to talk about unemployment, I'll come back to you...

posted 12-18-98 11:21 AM ET            

On unemployment, I will wait for the fans of the US example to make the connection to economic freedom; it often appears in different sizes and colors, so...

posted 12-19-98 03:00 PM ET            

I'm talking about the quality. Because EU higher ed(no comments, please) is free, obviously more people will use it, though the QUALITY of the education in many major universities here is better. Just think, you hear every night on the news about some new discovery coming out of Berkely or Yale, etc. But almost never hear about any EU universities producing any breakthroughs(the exception is Cambridge, though. It rivals just about any American universtiy.)

posted 12-19-98 08:41 PM ET            

Lets do this with a little math.
250 Million Americans.
4.5 Billaion (around) other people.

13 of the top Universities are American. that means 3/4 of the good universities in the world are american. we have the majority and we also have less people to a good university. Somehow i think that means we have the best higher education.

Bannor: I have NO idea where you got the idea that anyone in the US can be searched at any time. Thats comepletly wrong. And when ever it actualy happens the Cops get destoryed in court..... Its ESTREMLY unconsitutional.

Also a very large % of Americans start there own Biz. Take new jobs, and go back to collage. In America you can start over relitivly easily.

Zan: "I think (could be wrong) that, conciously or unconciously, most Americans _do_ believe the consumeristadvertising motto: "He who dies with the most toys wins"

So? Although most people also want to have families, friends, and a long life...

Hotharm Upravda
TB

posted 12-20-98 01:43 PM ET            

We could say the same thing about the Europe. Something along the likes of. "The Euros could not be very happy as they live in cities that are filled with the Monuments of the past, a past in which they had empires and power. How can they be happy when the know that the golden years of their counties and culture has pasted?"

posted 12-20-98 05:55 PM ET            

You do have the best highest education, but it's not that supreme as you say it is. If you look at the people in your universities, you'll see that many of them are foreign. Now actually you educate about half of the worlds population, when people from poor countries go to US to study if their country doesn't have good enough universities. So you educate about as much of your own people in exellent universities as Europeans. Too bad many of them stay in US, instead of using their knowledge to help their home countries.

posted 12-20-98 07:36 PM ET            

Also, your description of American life seems to pertain only to the middle-aged. The youth of America (those that have any vision, at least), abhor the kind of life you have presented. Frankly, I don't desire a safe, tranquil neighborhood.

One final note, Capitalism does not cause poverty, the inept bring it on themselves, it does not cause crime, those that have no drive to become productive seek to obtain money the easy way. As for pollution, it is a by-product of industry. Any large scale industry will have pollution, capitalist or socialist.

posted 12-20-98 07:56 PM ET            

DHE: "Capitalism does not cause poverty, the inept bring it on themselves." - Well, at least, capitalism allows the inept to dig their own graves. Which again leads to crime. In any case, I certainly don't buy your argument that poor people are inept. Wasn't Jesus sort of poor? (that's a cheap one )

posted 12-20-98 08:15 PM ET            

My god. Surely you cannot be serious? Tell me this is a wind up. Please.

posted 12-20-98 09:24 PM ET            

1. What I meant by inept, in my earlier post, would be anybody who has a chance at making a good life, though through careless mistakes(slacking off in school, etc.) loses that chance. (ex. kid from average income home gets f's in school, winds up working
for minimum wage, or turns to the streets). People that truly do have no chance at making a better life for themselves(disabled, etc.) should be helped. Not everybody who is poor is inept, as I defined it. Sorry about the confusion.
DCA, yeah Jesus was poor( carpenter, actually. In those times, it was a very lowly caste.), though he didn't really need money for what he did...

2. Marquesa, actually, you are right. The state of the capital(noticed I said "the capital". Damn I'm ethnocentric.) is horrible. You weren't far from the truth in calling it a 19th century slum. When compared to other cities of its size, it has, on the whole, more crime and poverty.

3. Small amounts of poverty are good for the economy, though most nations(clarification, all nations), have more than enough to avoid skyrocketing inflation.

~DHE, hindsight's a bitch...

posted 12-20-98 09:31 PM ET            

Zan Thrax: I do not even know were to start. So i am not even going to bother. All i am going to say is you should spend some time reading before you speak. Watching "Baywatch" or "WWF" does not equal a understanding of the US population.

Marquesa: I have "opened" my eyes to America. And frankly just because a small portion of a very poor city shocked you does not mean the whole US is either poor, or has a bad life.

In short. both of you should travel more. would open your minds and you would see that those generlizations you used are complely false.

Americans are very happy thank you very much. We rarely cheat on our wifes and family is by far the most inportant thing.

posted 12-20-98 10:06 PM ET            

Well, this is an oversimplified generalization if I ever saw one. First of all, there is no such thing as an 'American' - America is not a homogenous society. Second, the stereotype you are describing is not necessarily the prevailing one. Third, why would you know? Which divine power gave you the ability to determine who is happy and who is cheating on their spouses?

posted 12-21-98 06:47 AM ET            

Amazing. Ok, it's about close to 6 Billion. 13 univ. out of 20 = 65 %, so a bit less than 2/3, while 3/4 would be 75 %. So much for math. And that 65 % of the "top" universities are top, doesn't mean that 65 % of the "good" universities are american. "Top" = "all the good" ? There's a difference, IMNSHO...

Gojackal: "Whether you want it or not, America is #1 in the world in competitiveness. That explains most of what you are arguing about."

Ah yes ? How do you measure that ? How do you run that nice 150 billion $ trade deficit when you are so competitive ? And don't come up with the saving-rate-crap...