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Author Topic:   Let's forget Christmas

Grosshaus posted 12-17-98 04:03 PM ET
Just look at the amount of games published just before Christmas. It's enormous. If your a strategy-fan, then you've got People's General, Ceasar II, Settlers III, Populous III, RailRoad Tycoon II...
If all those games would come up gradually throughout the year, I might just buy them all. But when they all are in the stores now, I can only buy one or perhaps two. And when I am ready both financially and mentally to buy another, I can't find any in the shops anymore!
Now that has bugged me for a long time and I hope it will change.
And THANK YOU FIRAXIS! SMAC is just about the only game I've look forward to buying that is published later.
Also most of the games published now are not ready. Like for instance Fallout 2 was actually impossible to "play through" as version 1.00 I don't think updating is very fair to us players. Especially if it's just to publish the game before Christmas. I believe the only group of products in the world that are selled unfinished and whose updating is given to the buyer are computer games/programs. Hopefully there will be some sort of law forbiding this insanity.
Gord McLeod posted 12-17-98 04:08 PM ET
Operating systems are extensively patched as well, and in fact you'd be hard-pressed to find ANY software that isn't extensively patched these days. It's a sad fact of life but it's becoming more common because programs are getting bigger, more complex and more involved, and so require more resources to put together. It's a trend that's only going to continue into the future. Fair or not, it's pretty much unavoidable...
Grosshaus posted 12-17-98 04:17 PM ET
It's very good to be able to update your program to install new options and to make it work with newer soft/hardware. But selling a product that is not ready and doesn't run properly or has bugs making it hard to use, that is wrong!
Now I'm a part of the priviledged gamers who have internet connection. Some of my friends use my computer to update their programs, which gives them a solution. But what if you had no friends or lived in a remote place?
Old_Guy posted 12-17-98 04:41 PM ET
Boy, when I first saw the title of this topic, I thought someone was proposing something quite drastic!
Like Gord said, software has gotten a lot more complex. This also means that a lot of time, effort, and money goes into development. Unfortunately, this of course can lead to some companies rushing buggy products out the door.
Another disturbing trend we're seeing with some games is that some patches are incompatible with games saved in the pre-patched version of the game. So the company is telling you that if you want to fix those annoying (or even debilitating) bugs, you have to start the whole game over again.
The bright side, however, is that at least companies do patch games nowadays. Even less than 5 years ago, you wouldn't see too many games get bug fixes. Now we even get patches that fix compatibility problems with certain hardware.
As usual, there's a good and a bad side to things.
Steel_Dragon posted 12-17-98 05:42 PM ET
The solution is to have a Government gaurenteed right to return computer gameswithin thirty days, for a full refund if they are faulty.
CyberC posted 12-17-98 05:50 PM ET
What about illegal copying, it happens all the times, for as far as I know (In Holland)
you don't get a refund because you might have coppied the program.
CyberC
P.S. I don't wanna be a junior member
( I got about ten posts now
CClark posted 12-17-98 06:16 PM ET
The main problem nowadays is that there are just TOO MANY GAMES. If there were fewer games, they might even cost us less!
There is an interesting article at http://www.gamecenter.com/ called "The Retail Game" which partially explains why games cost so much!.
Part of the problem is that there are so many basically similar games out. I'd buy Half-Life, but I already have Shogo. I'd get Civ2:Gold, but I know I'll be getting SMAC soon. Luckily for me, I hate RT games so I don't have to worry about Caesar3 or RRT2. (I tried the demo for RRT2 and was $500 million in the whole by year 17 on Easy! Realtime and I just don't mix!)
I rather like the trend that Firaxis is shooting for: Make 1 game a year, but make it innovative and excellent. I hear that Lionhead (Peter M., ex of Bullfrog) is using a similar strategy. That's a trend I'd really like to see. Have 4 or 5 top-quality games a year and let them stand out from the chaff.
Oh well, if you think that strat people have it bad; have you counted the number of WW2 flight sims there are right now! And Activision has one scheduled for Feb. Sheesh!
CClark posted 12-17-98 06:19 PM ET
Oops... forgot my point!
My point is that I expect to see a bunch of consolidation and/or bakruptcies in the gaming business over the next few years. Unless there are a LOT of new gamers to bear the cost of all the games, I would expect to see a bunch of clones and "me too" games do poorly and cost some companies their business. Hopefully, natural selection will leave the Firaxis and Lionhead type studios around.
Of course, we'll probably always have a "space bunnies must die" regardless of how many games are (not) produced.
DHE_X2 posted 12-17-98 11:37 PM ET
I know this is off topic, sorry.
How bugged is fallout2? I seriously want to get that game, but if it is that bugged, I might just skip it and get everquest instead.
Fluke posted 12-18-98 02:21 AM ET
How about Red Guard?
I heard it was excellent.
Talking of Gaming company bankruptsies, have any of you seen what's happening at Ion Storm? Dominion was a world scale FLOP and I think all their games have slipped their date by at least a year. Most of the Daikatana team left not long ago to start their own company. I think that they are up ****creek without a paddle.
Maybe they'll at least avoid Christmas releases
Imran Siddiqui posted 12-18-98 02:25 AM ET
Fallout had bugs, but they didn't affect you from playing the game... You can finish with them. By any means, don't wait, get F2 NOW!!
Imran Siddiqui
Octopus posted 12-18-98 02:38 AM ET
"they didn't affect you from playing the game"
If your idea of playing the game is getting stuck in infinte loops, or having the game crash out on you inexplicably, then yes, the bugs didn't affect gameplay. The patches have been making it better, but there are still problems.
Zan Thrax posted 12-18-98 02:46 AM ET
I haven't encountered any bugs yet.
Octopus posted 12-18-98 02:58 AM ET
Zan: Trust me, they're in there. If you want me to tell you where to find some, I can.
CClark posted 12-18-98 01:51 PM ET
Re: Fallout 2 and bugs
I played it through once and the only bugs I encountered were a couple of minor dialog tree branch screw-ups. They did not affect gameplay. I also had one hard crash (but had luckily saved it recently). That was it.
I'm playing it through for a second time to try and get some of the things I missed before. I have run into more bugs this time around. Again, though, none of them (except for two hard crashes) have been game-threatening. I've lost half the car (front and back at alternate times) but that was easily fixed by exiting the map and re-entering it. Not ideal, but certainly not crippling to my enjoyment.
The Final Patch is now out and the game is supposed to work fine. It is definitely worth buying if you liked the first one at all.
Octopus, I don't know what to say. Maybe you're just really unlucky, maybe you've been trying things that they never, ever expected or maybe you just have some seriously wierd hardware.
(A fair number of the bugs had to do with scripted hand-to-hand fights, which I missed the first pass through. That might account for some of my low bug encounter rate. I also finished all of Tandi's quests before I even met her and she was the buggiest of all NPC's, so again, that might account for my low bug count.)
Utrecht posted 12-18-98 03:28 PM ET
I had nealy the same experience with Fallout that CCLark.
a work around for all of the buggy software (I'll admint its not a good one) but wait approx 1 month after a game was relased before purchasing it. A patch will be out or coming very quickly. Just a thought
Utrecht posted 12-18-98 03:34 PM ET
And now for a completely different thought. What really is hurting this industry is actually not the bugs. (they hurt but are not fatal esp. with most companies effort to fix them)
Rather it the exceptionally large number of games that are being released. Many of these are poorly thought out and poorly written so that bottom line.....They are no fun. I can live with bugs if I am having fun, but if a game is p**sing me off I was a waste of maney.
With the large number of games coming out, (and corresponding less shelf space and time for each game) it becomes absolutely CRITICAL for games to get released as quickly as possible so that investors may recover their investments as quickly as possible. After all the bottom line in the industry is to make money not to make me or you happy.
If you are a developer and are luck enought to have a franchise to build on (like the name Sid Meier) you have the ability to resist this trend a little bit, but the hard brutal truth is that this industry is being run be the Morgans of the world.
Octopus posted 12-18-98 11:42 PM ET
CClark: I definitely got nailed by that damned martial arts ring in San Francisco. There were unpredictable crashes and freezes as well. I was relatively bug free for a while the first time through, but once I hit San Francisco, it quickly became unplayable. I've restarted a number of times with the beta patches, but now I've been through the early stages so many times that it is more irritating than entertaining (especially running back and forth between Gecko and VC).
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Author	Topic: Let's forget Christmas
Grosshaus	posted 12-17-98 04:03 PM ET Just look at the amount of games published just before Christmas. It's enormous. If your a strategy-fan, then you've got People's General, Ceasar II, Settlers III, Populous III, RailRoad Tycoon II... If all those games would come up gradually throughout the year, I might just buy them all. But when they all are in the stores now, I can only buy one or perhaps two. And when I am ready both financially and mentally to buy another, I can't find any in the shops anymore! Now that has bugged me for a long time and I hope it will change. And THANK YOU FIRAXIS! SMAC is just about the only game I've look forward to buying that is published later. Also most of the games published now are not ready. Like for instance Fallout 2 was actually impossible to "play through" as version 1.00 I don't think updating is very fair to us players. Especially if it's just to publish the game before Christmas. I believe the only group of products in the world that are selled unfinished and whose updating is given to the buyer are computer games/programs. Hopefully there will be some sort of law forbiding this insanity.
Gord McLeod	posted 12-17-98 04:08 PM ET Operating systems are extensively patched as well, and in fact you'd be hard-pressed to find ANY software that isn't extensively patched these days. It's a sad fact of life but it's becoming more common because programs are getting bigger, more complex and more involved, and so require more resources to put together. It's a trend that's only going to continue into the future. Fair or not, it's pretty much unavoidable...
Grosshaus	posted 12-17-98 04:17 PM ET It's very good to be able to update your program to install new options and to make it work with newer soft/hardware. But selling a product that is not ready and doesn't run properly or has bugs making it hard to use, that is wrong! Now I'm a part of the priviledged gamers who have internet connection. Some of my friends use my computer to update their programs, which gives them a solution. But what if you had no friends or lived in a remote place?
Old_Guy	posted 12-17-98 04:41 PM ET Boy, when I first saw the title of this topic, I thought someone was proposing something quite drastic! Like Gord said, software has gotten a lot more complex. This also means that a lot of time, effort, and money goes into development. Unfortunately, this of course can lead to some companies rushing buggy products out the door. Another disturbing trend we're seeing with some games is that some patches are incompatible with games saved in the pre-patched version of the game. So the company is telling you that if you want to fix those annoying (or even debilitating) bugs, you have to start the whole game over again. The bright side, however, is that at least companies do patch games nowadays. Even less than 5 years ago, you wouldn't see too many games get bug fixes. Now we even get patches that fix compatibility problems with certain hardware. As usual, there's a good and a bad side to things.
Steel_Dragon	posted 12-17-98 05:42 PM ET The solution is to have a Government gaurenteed right to return computer gameswithin thirty days, for a full refund if they are faulty.
CyberC	posted 12-17-98 05:50 PM ET What about illegal copying, it happens all the times, for as far as I know (In Holland) you don't get a refund because you might have coppied the program. CyberC P.S. I don't wanna be a junior member ( I got about ten posts now
CClark	posted 12-17-98 06:16 PM ET The main problem nowadays is that there are just TOO MANY GAMES. If there were fewer games, they might even cost us less! There is an interesting article at http://www.gamecenter.com/ called "The Retail Game" which partially explains why games cost so much!. Part of the problem is that there are so many basically similar games out. I'd buy Half-Life, but I already have Shogo. I'd get Civ2:Gold, but I know I'll be getting SMAC soon. Luckily for me, I hate RT games so I don't have to worry about Caesar3 or RRT2. (I tried the demo for RRT2 and was $500 million in the whole by year 17 on Easy! Realtime and I just don't mix!) I rather like the trend that Firaxis is shooting for: Make 1 game a year, but make it innovative and excellent. I hear that Lionhead (Peter M., ex of Bullfrog) is using a similar strategy. That's a trend I'd really like to see. Have 4 or 5 top-quality games a year and let them stand out from the chaff. Oh well, if you think that strat people have it bad; have you counted the number of WW2 flight sims there are right now! And Activision has one scheduled for Feb. Sheesh!
CClark	posted 12-17-98 06:19 PM ET Oops... forgot my point! My point is that I expect to see a bunch of consolidation and/or bakruptcies in the gaming business over the next few years. Unless there are a LOT of new gamers to bear the cost of all the games, I would expect to see a bunch of clones and "me too" games do poorly and cost some companies their business. Hopefully, natural selection will leave the Firaxis and Lionhead type studios around. Of course, we'll probably always have a "space bunnies must die" regardless of how many games are (not) produced.
DHE_X2	posted 12-17-98 11:37 PM ET I know this is off topic, sorry. How bugged is fallout2? I seriously want to get that game, but if it is that bugged, I might just skip it and get everquest instead.
Fluke	posted 12-18-98 02:21 AM ET How about Red Guard? I heard it was excellent. Talking of Gaming company bankruptsies, have any of you seen what's happening at Ion Storm? Dominion was a world scale FLOP and I think all their games have slipped their date by at least a year. Most of the Daikatana team left not long ago to start their own company. I think that they are up ****creek without a paddle. Maybe they'll at least avoid Christmas releases
Imran Siddiqui	posted 12-18-98 02:25 AM ET Fallout had bugs, but they didn't affect you from playing the game... You can finish with them. By any means, don't wait, get F2 NOW!! Imran Siddiqui
Octopus	posted 12-18-98 02:38 AM ET "they didn't affect you from playing the game" If your idea of playing the game is getting stuck in infinte loops, or having the game crash out on you inexplicably, then yes, the bugs didn't affect gameplay. The patches have been making it better, but there are still problems.
Zan Thrax	posted 12-18-98 02:46 AM ET I haven't encountered any bugs yet.
Octopus	posted 12-18-98 02:58 AM ET Zan: Trust me, they're in there. If you want me to tell you where to find some, I can.
CClark	posted 12-18-98 01:51 PM ET Re: Fallout 2 and bugs I played it through once and the only bugs I encountered were a couple of minor dialog tree branch screw-ups. They did not affect gameplay. I also had one hard crash (but had luckily saved it recently). That was it. I'm playing it through for a second time to try and get some of the things I missed before. I have run into more bugs this time around. Again, though, none of them (except for two hard crashes) have been game-threatening. I've lost half the car (front and back at alternate times) but that was easily fixed by exiting the map and re-entering it. Not ideal, but certainly not crippling to my enjoyment. The Final Patch is now out and the game is supposed to work fine. It is definitely worth buying if you liked the first one at all. Octopus, I don't know what to say. Maybe you're just really unlucky, maybe you've been trying things that they never, ever expected or maybe you just have some seriously wierd hardware. (A fair number of the bugs had to do with scripted hand-to-hand fights, which I missed the first pass through. That might account for some of my low bug encounter rate. I also finished all of Tandi's quests before I even met her and she was the buggiest of all NPC's, so again, that might account for my low bug count.)
Utrecht	posted 12-18-98 03:28 PM ET I had nealy the same experience with Fallout that CCLark. a work around for all of the buggy software (I'll admint its not a good one) but wait approx 1 month after a game was relased before purchasing it. A patch will be out or coming very quickly. Just a thought
Utrecht	posted 12-18-98 03:34 PM ET And now for a completely different thought. What really is hurting this industry is actually not the bugs. (they hurt but are not fatal esp. with most companies effort to fix them) Rather it the exceptionally large number of games that are being released. Many of these are poorly thought out and poorly written so that bottom line.....They are no fun. I can live with bugs if I am having fun, but if a game is p**sing me off I was a waste of maney. With the large number of games coming out, (and corresponding less shelf space and time for each game) it becomes absolutely CRITICAL for games to get released as quickly as possible so that investors may recover their investments as quickly as possible. After all the bottom line in the industry is to make money not to make me or you happy. If you are a developer and are luck enought to have a franchise to build on (like the name Sid Meier) you have the ability to resist this trend a little bit, but the hard brutal truth is that this industry is being run be the Morgans of the world.
Octopus	posted 12-18-98 11:42 PM ET CClark: I definitely got nailed by that damned martial arts ring in San Francisco. There were unpredictable crashes and freezes as well. I was relatively bug free for a while the first time through, but once I hit San Francisco, it quickly became unplayable. I've restarted a number of times with the beta patches, but now I've been through the early stages so many times that it is more irritating than entertaining (especially running back and forth between Gecko and VC).